Home Schooling

[Xerces]

Even true for fundy homeschoolers? Yea you're right and they only get to interact with people the parents deem appropriate, aka other christards.

 

Would it be any different if they sent their kids to school? Maybe in some cases. But like I said, if homeschooling were outlawed or it was made very difficult to do to prevent people from doing it, the fundies would still just form their own little private schools. After all, they've got the financial support of millions of poor and middle class people supporting their cause.

 

They already do that.

[Xerces]

 

 

IF there were radical changes to the way we educate our children, THEN I would say that most people that would choose to homeschool their children might be the fundies that want to prevent their children from finding out about the world. But you know what? When the actually DO go out into the world, they get a real education and it doesn't matter any more.

 

What do YOU remember about your education?

 

No, it does matter because that means they have to work extra hard to catch up to other people who've been given a proper education. I do not think it should be that way just to make it convenient for people to home-school their kids.

[Xerces]

 

 

You never answered my question. Have you ever actually explored and done any research into home schooling? I understand your concern, but who decides? Who in effect, for lack of a better term, 'Owns' your kids...you or the state? I do not trust the government to make my decisions about raising my kids other than me. Who's business is it who decides what your kids are taught? You can say that there is abuse of kids from home school, but you could say the same of public school teachers. Some kids graduate and cannot hardly read or do math. Some kids were given a slide because they could play sports. How is that any different than a home school kid abused? The results are no less devastating. There have been some public school teachers who have sexually abused some of their students. It has been in the newspapers from time to time all over the country. Just because something *MIGHT* happen is no excuse to become autocratic. Hell...if we arrested everybody who *MIGHT* do something, then every man on this board should be locked up because we have a penis and *MIGHT* commit rape. The thought process is what Stalinist Russia or Mao in China used to crack down in their days. No...just because something *MIGHT* happen is not a good reason.

 

 

So, we don't NEED law enforcement because people *MIGHT* commit crime right? We don't need to wash our hands cause we *MIGHT* get sick huh?

[RankStranger]

No. You outlaw crossing the street.

 

Duh.

[Xerces]

I would rather error on the side of freedom than on the side of fear that something *MIGHT* happen. Hell...if you start to cross the street, somebody *MIGHT* get hit by a bus. Does that mean we outlaw buses? You are avoiding the truth, we do have police but you don't do actions because somebody *MIGHT* do something...you are innocent until proven guilty. The only time a cop is legally allowed to do anything is when and only when he/she has probable cause and that must be observed directly by an officer or by a witness who reports a crime and then they must get a warrant. Placing people under arrest or acting on something that there is no proof of is of the sort of thing that Mao or Stalin would have done.

 

Exactly and there is probable cause to think that a lot of parents are doing a shitty job of homeschooling.

[RankStranger]

I'm sure that lots of parents DO a shitty job of homeschooling. But there are also lots of teachers and schools that do a shitty job of conventional schooling.

 

Unless there's good reason to believe that a kid is being neglected or abused, I think we should err on the side of letting parents do what the hell they want. Not saying that I would choose to home school (though I might depending on circumstances). But people should have that choice.

[Xerces]

I'm sure that lots of parents DO a shitty job of homeschooling. But there are also lots of teachers and schools that do a shitty job of conventional schooling.

 

Unless there's good reason to believe that a kid is being neglected or abused, I think we should err on the side of letting parents do what the hell they want. Not saying that I would choose to home school (though I might depending on circumstances). But people should have that choice.

 

Why not? But if parents are going to home-school, they should have to follow some rules and maybe pass a test//get-a-license first, to weed out the people that should not be home schooling their kids.

[Mling]

Asking if "home-schooling" is good, bad, healthy, not, is like asking if "school," is good, bad or anything else. For that matter, it's like asking if "subcultures," or even "societies," are good or not.

 

Ultimately, being an empathetic, creative, thoughtful person is good. An educational style that gets there is good, and one that doesn't, isn't. Breaking it down into specific "schools," isn't really useful because there's so much variation among public schools, among homeschooling techniques and among private schools.

 

Personally, I think a lot of public and private schools do kids an enormous disservice. Adults are often treated as representations of authority, on the one hand, and simultaneously as turnkeys to getting what you want...and then we wonder why teens are often so disrespectful toward adults! I work in a high school, and the sort of disrespect I get is very specific. I often have things flung in my direction while the student snaps, "Go give that to what's-her-name." Students have gotten my attention by whistling at me, snapping their fingers, or waving a paper in my direction. Sometimes, when they need something, they just yell into the air, "I need a ____!" without looking up. Here's the thing, though: I've never been told I'm fat, stupid, lazy, poor, privileged, have stupid hair or a bad wardrobe, or anything else that's personal.

 

I once tried to make a subject personal, when a student drew a swastika on another (consenting) student, by saying "I have family members who risked their lives trying to rescue people from that symbol--I really don't like seeing it used lightly." Response: "Why should I care about your family?"

 

Herding children into very large groups, run by a couple people who design rules and inflict them on the group, encourages children to not view those adults as human beings. Get a large group of people--any age-- who are under the authority of entities they don't think of as people, and how are they going to act? They're going to obey if they feel they have to, but on their own, they're going to come up with their own social rules, and build their own little society.

 

Look around among a lot of teens--they often act "weirdly" because they are living by a completely different set of social rules. Ones that were invented by teenagers and pre-teens, and are largely born out of rebellion, or by deliberately disregarding the rules that are inflicted on them.

 

I think homeschooling, and private schools with very small class sizes and lots of personal connection between student and teacher, are inherently better methods of guiding people from childhood to adult citizen. At the very least, they don't promote the rejection of all of society for several years, followed by a culture shock in (or after) college, upon entering the "real world."

 

What is taught in these homeschooling programs or private schools is a different question, and I'd much prefer to see a kid in closer-to-healthy public school than a private school or homeschool group that teaches them crap. But the basic structure of keeping kids in regular personal contact with adults? I think, as a society, we need to move to that sort of system.

[Xerces]

Who has custody of the kids? The state or the parents? When you interfere with the wishes of the parents, you would find yourself in violation of a number of civil rights against the parents. Just because you may have had a bad situation, you are the rare unfortunate exception, you do not punish the whole for the bad behavior of the few. That is Stalinist.

 

Someone has to have some say so, if not the government then who?? The government can be a really good thing if it could just be restructured, you know, less spending on war and weapons, taking religion out of government, more public transportation, ethical foreign relations etc etc.

[Xerces]

You never answered the question....WHO has custody of the kids?...the state or the parents?

 

As for government...you are naive. The only thing the government needs is a straitjacket and a loaded gun to its head. Government is a piss poor manager of anything. Notice how many of the government budgets are in trouble? Government cannot manage it's way out of a wet paper bag and I have never seen a government anywhere that can run as well as any local small business. Before you say big bankers...don't go there as I agree with you, they should be in jail and the banks gone under.

 

The parents would have the custody. The government already has the authority to take children away for various reasons, why should there not be closer supervision of what parents are teaching their kids? Lets for the jest of it, say that the government is actually doing well for itself, that public education is good through & through, no issues of violence/drugs/christians-pushing-their-shit-onto-schools/inept-abusive-teachers. Would there be a viable reason for a government employee to not keep tabs on how kids are being taught?

 

I'm not naming names either, I'm sure you're a great mentor/tutor/teacher to your kids.

[disEnchanted]

Parents should retain the RIGHT to homeschool their children but should also have the SENSE not to if they can't do a good job. I used to think everyone should HAVE to homeschool their children - abolish the public school system altogether. Unfortunately, our nation would have an even bigger percentage of idiots than we do now if there were no public schools.

 

I was a teacher for 15 years and got sick and tired of all the teacher-bashing while the parents expected us to teach their children everything from table manners, to how to tie their own shoes, to how to drive and sex education and of course every subject area known to man.

 

Now I'm the director of a testing/tutoring program and constantly see homeschoolers who read so poorly or can't read AT ALL! I recently tested 2 boys that would have been in 9th and 7th grade if they had been in school. They performed at 2nd & 3rd grade reading and math levels. Their vocabulary was so weak, they could barely carry on a conversation. They told me they watched FOX News for their social studies curriculum.

 

Last year I tested a homeschooled 2nd grader that was completely confused by simple math problems. All throughout testing, he kept asking, "What do you mean? How should I know?" His mother left homeschooling to the dad and all they ever did was visit museums and do "fun stuff."

 

Last week, we enrolled 3 brothers in our tutoring program that would be in 2nd, 4th, and 6th grade if in school. The 2 younger kids can not read at all. They don't even know the sounds of the letters. The older boy does all the reading for them but he can't multiply or divide.

 

Homeschooling is not the answer for everyone. But neither are public and private schools. The education system in this country is broken and we need to fix it. This should be our primary focus - not oil production, not health care, and certainly not Martin Sheen!

 

Okay, I feel better now.

[SilentLoner]

Parents should retain the RIGHT to homeschool their children but should also have the SENSE not to if they can't do a good job. I used to think everyone should HAVE to homeschool their children - abolish the public school system altogether. Unfortunately, our nation would have an even bigger percentage of idiots than we do now if there were no public schools.

 

I think you said it best.

[youngster]

Burned out you are absolutely right. Sounds like you are a libertarian.

Public schools are a waste of time. most of what i learned after 6th or 7th grade has no relevence to my career. for my children i will homeschool them until they learn every thing relevent: reading, writing, arithmetic, and basic science. then they will start learning assorted trades and worthwhile skills. there are plenty of homeschooling groups out there so that your children can socialize and you dont have to worry about the wrong sort of children. My children will play club sports also.

Public schools should be abolished they are nothing but socialist institutions.

[lunaticheathen]

I think any school or situation can potentially fail one child or another. There is no black or white answer. I know from my experience that one public school couldn't teach me (county school in AL, I knew how to read before 3rd grade, I was too "far ahead"), one private school forced me to teach myself when one teacher was too fucking lazy and this same bitch teacher did not teach my sister how to read, the next private school was Baptist and fundie, and failed me utterly socially and was way behind the public school in the same city academically. The fundie school actually improved by the time my sister got to the secondary level, and I was gone to a publicly funded magnet school where I learned so much, I felt like my first two years in college were a fucking vacation.

During my time at the fundie school, I begged to go to the public high school, because they had AP classes when the fundie school didn't, and was teaching creationism and their "sex education" was a video of a screaming woman saying having sex before marriage caused everything from instant AIDS and herpes to schizophrenia and suicidal depression. She strongly hinted that it let the commies win too. Good thing my mother was a midwife, and gave me real sex ed before I ever set foot in that stupid fucking school I'd love to see burn. Oh yes, and the headmaster of this school told me I was suspended when I punched a groping boy, because "boys will be boys." Burn, fucking school, burn.

As far as homeschooling, from the fundie teachers I saw who had kids in that fucking school, and how much sway they had over them, I can see no good coming from letting fundies being the ONLY teacher their kids have. Secular homeschool is, of course, different, but every child and every situation is different.

I have already sworn, however, that if I have children, they will never see the inside of a private christian school. EVER.

[someitguy79]

To add my voice to the noise. Even some of the worst and most fundie homeshool students seem to do better than homeschooling counterparts. Sorry the state doesn't own my kid. In my state the Dept. of Education went nuts in the late 70s and early 80s that our State Supreme court neutered them. The legislature also reduced their power. In Indiana all you do record attendance and report it if your asked by local school system or state DOE. It has been that way for over 30 years.

 

We are homeschooling parents. I am not a Christian, but a Deist. Frankly, the quality of public education and curriculum in most of the country is poor. All the local private schools are religious and only one goes to 12. My kids will have a full course of science including evolution. They will learn about intelligent design while studying philosophy. This is where it belongs.

 

However, Christian homeschoolers or private schoolers I have met knew far more science than did most public school students. So they reject evolution, but they understood physics, DNA and the structure of matter. In fact I am looked at like I have three heads with the idea I am homeschooling for education and not religion. In Wesleyanville here that is unheard of, religion is seen as the only valid reason for any private education.

[someitguy79]

Should have said non-homeschooling counterparts.

To add my voice to the noise. Even some of the worst and most fundie homeshool students seem to do better than homeschooling counterparts. Sorry the state doesn't own my kid. In my state the Dept. of Education went nuts in the late 70s and early 80s that our State Supreme court neutered them. The legislature also reduced their power. In Indiana all you do record attendance and report it if your asked by local school system or state DOE. It has been that way for over 30 years.

 

We are homeschooling parents. I am not a Christian, but a Deist. Frankly, the quality of public education and curriculum in most of the country is poor. All the local private schools are religious and only one goes to 12. My kids will have a full course of science including evolution. They will learn about intelligent design while studying philosophy. This is where it belongs.

 

However, Christian homeschoolers or private schoolers I have met knew far more science than did most public school students. So they reject evolution, but they understood physics, DNA and the structure of matter. In fact I am looked at like I have three heads with the idea I am homeschooling for education and not religion. In Wesleyanville here that is unheard of, religion is seen as the only valid reason for any private education.

[youngster]

Burned out; very nice.

its good to see that some people have not replaced fundamentalist religion with the religions of socialism or facism. Our country has bred these to evils to produce a beast that needs to be killed.

[SilentLoner]

Burned out; very nice.

its good to see that some people have not replaced fundamentalist religion with the religions of socialism or facism. Our country has bred these to evils to produce a beast that needs to be killed.

 

Nah. Liberterianism is his new religion.

[FourDogBrewing]

I may have a different perspective on this. Please forgive me if this was covered elsewhere in the thread.

 

I was raised a missionary kid in east africa from six months until 19 years of age. I have had plenty of exposure and experience with home schooling in that setting. From my personal experience home schooling is about the worst thing you can do. Think of it in these terms. When you get a puppy is always important to socialize them with other dogs. Well it is the same way with kids. I find that most home school kids lack the socialization and related skills that their other counterparts would posses.

 

This was such a large issue in the environment I grew up in that it became an inside joke in my family to identify home schooled kids just be observing their behavior. It even became an excuse for their behavior, image along the lines of "Well he was home schooled, so you know ....." I was sent to boarding school at a very young age in the third grade. While I don't thinking sending your kids to boarding school is wise either, in retrospect I would choose boarding school over home school as it aided to develop the social skills to exceed in life.

 

Anyway just my 2 cents, home school = socially inept kids.

 

This is all to say nothing of the potential that they wont get a decent education, also how does this look to universities?

[Xerces]

 

The question remains...Who owns your kids?....You?....The state?.....

 

Its not that black and white. There really should be some sort of medium to where kids can be protected from being educationally neglected.

[stryper]

The question remains...Who owns your kids?....You?....The state?.....I reserve the right as a parent to decide what is best for my kid. I cannot vouch for all home school programs, but we home schooled our daughter for a year. There were many opportunities for the kids to interact. My daughter played basketball with a home school league. There were some people who come and teach groups of home schoolers many subjects the parents are not really qualified to. I even have a friend who teaches Karate to 5 different groups of home schoolers. I would hardly call them stunted or inept...HARDLY.

 

 

That's the rub, BO. They are only opportunities. The parents have to decide to engage the kids in the opportunities. And not all parents will do that...cause ya know...the world is evil and all.

 

On another note, A cousin of mine who is now a pastor was home schooled for 9 years when his father was a missionary in Hati. He graduated from a Florida High School two years ahead of where he would've been had he been in the school system.

 

So the biggest issues is the quality and engagment of the parents. The same applies to your local school district. Without engaged partents, the shcool can only do so much. So really, in my opinion, it comes down to the parents and how the education is handled.

[ilovemybrain]

My opinion - FWIW - I tried homeschooling for a couple of years and nearly lost my mind (I'm not exaggerating either). I was a fundy at the time and all the literature I was reading was making me feel like I'd be sacrificing my children to idols if I put them in school. But they (and I ) have been doing light years better since they've been in public school. I have heard and seen more horror stories than success stories, personally.

[FourDogBrewing]

I may have a different perspective on this. Please forgive me if this was covered elsewhere in the thread.

 

I was raised a missionary kid in east africa from six months until 19 years of age. I have had plenty of exposure and experience with home schooling in that setting. From my personal experience home schooling is about the worst thing you can do. Think of it in these terms. When you get a puppy is always important to socialize them with other dogs. Well it is the same way with kids. I find that most home school kids lack the socialization and related skills that their other counterparts would posses.

 

This was such a large issue in the environment I grew up in that it became an inside joke in my family to identify home schooled kids just be observing their behavior. It even became an excuse for their behavior, image along the lines of "Well he was home schooled, so you know ....." I was sent to boarding school at a very young age in the third grade. While I don't thinking sending your kids to boarding school is wise either, in retrospect I would choose boarding school over home school as it aided to develop the social skills to exceed in life.

 

Anyway just my 2 cents, home school = socially inept kids.

 

This is all to say nothing of the potential that they wont get a decent education, also how does this look to universities?

 

The question remains...Who owns your kids?....You?....The state?.....I reserve the right as a parent to decide what is best for my kid. I cannot vouch for all home school programs, but we home schooled our daughter for a year. There were many opportunities for the kids to interact. My daughter played basketball with a home school league. There were some people who come and teach groups of home schoolers many subjects the parents are not really qualified to. I even have a friend who teaches Karate to 5 different groups of home schoolers. I would hardly call them stunted or inept...HARDLY.

 

The scenario I am talking about is different, these were kids who were isolated from others of their ilk. Also these were kids that were home schooled for their entire school career. I am sure socialization here in the US is much easier through activities like you mention. Properly done I am sure it can work fine. However that is the key, properly done. I can tell you from experience that home schooled kids from missionary families often are socially at a disadvantage and often scholastically as well.

 

As for who owns their kids, hell if I know, I ddin't comment on that to begin with. It does reasie an interesting argument and train of thought though. I know there are some parents that witthold their kids from school entirely. While this is their decision, it ultimately would not be in the best interests of the child. As for where it would be the states concern, I don't know.

[Xerces]

 

It is black or white. The only thing you cannot do is what can physically harm your kids, at least according to the courts. Beyond that, it is the state completely raising them and you as a parent have no rights. PISS ON THE GOVERNMENT...I HATE GOVERNMENT! Government is the only thing worse than religion. Both want to control you and your kids, the only difference, religion just wants your will, the government wants your property and your kids....FUCK'EM!

 

Obviously it should be more than the physical though, I'm not saying the government should dictate how people raise their kids, only that if parents are going to home-school, do it right and give the kids the necessary knowledge to function in the world when they get older. And what that curriculum is has already been defined and is used by the majority of schools.(Those that aren't religious institutions)

[J.W.]

Public school has a few advantages over home schooling.

 

#1 Social skills- interacting with others and learning how to deal with aholes while still accomplishing your goals.

#2 Exposure to more ideas- many teachers will have read many more good books and have worthy ideas worth sharing

#3 They learn to make their own way- every student actually teaches themselves-- its the teachers job to present useful info in interesting easily remembered ways [few true good ones]

#4 The opposite sex- they need it around period