Challenge to Christians.

[-Demona-]

I challenge you, Christians, to prove to me why your beliefs are so much better than those of the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Jews, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Druids, and all the rest of humanity in its many forms.

 

What makes your religion so special? Every religion in the world has some sort of godman who did great works and was a sacrifice for some greater good. Every religion has very clear concepts of right and wrong, of good and evil.

 

Prove to me how your beliefs are valid. Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind.

 

You claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I challenge you to defend it.

 

I am the very least of the unbelievers here. Better to respond to my challenge intelligently before you go after the big guys here.

 

Go on. Take a swing at it. If you are as comfortable and knowledgable in your beliefs as you say you are, then you have very little to fear from me.

[Isak The Newt]

lol, but you know the answer willbe

 

"Bible says so, so there!"

[-Demona-]

lol, but you know the answer willbe

 

"Bible says so, so there!"

Aargh, I hate when they do that! All I can say is that "The Gospel of Thomas says this and the Chronicles of Narnia say that, so these must be true too!"

 

 

Pfft. Funny how those powderpuff types will believe any nonsense they hear but tune out any reasonable remark. Mental midgets like that shouldn't be taking on our tougher debaters. It's like Don Quixote attacking a windmill because he mistook it for a giant.

[Disco Stu]

yes siree

Basic

Instructions

Before

Leaving

Earth

is the only supporting evidence they need. If you do not believe them then you are wrong and condemmed to hell. However I am excited to read their responses

[Mike D]

I recently asked my brother-in-law this question. He said (rather excitedly) that Christianity is the only religion where god actually came to earth in human form and walked with us. NO other religion can say that! And that makes Christianity better, and true! <sigh>. I really love my bro-in-law and he's actually pretty smart, but I was a little dumbfounded at this rather blatant divergence of reason from his normally logical thought processes....

[Ouroboros]

BIBLE = Basically Ignorant Babble for a Lobotomized Enterprise

 

i.e. Handbook for powerhungry bigots, wanting to corrupt politics and society and become emperors.

[Ouroboros]

I recently asked my brother-in-law this question.  He said (rather excitedly) that Christianity is the only religion where god actually came to earth in human form and walked with us.  NO other religion can say that!  And that makes Christianity better, and true!  <sigh>.  I really love my bro-in-law and he's actually pretty smart, but I was a little dumbfounded at this rather blatant divergence of reason from his normally logical thought processes....

They put trust into other peoples words and stories.

 

What difference does it make if the story about Jesus is all fabulous and fanciful and so much better than all other mythologies, if it never happened!

 

Maybe Raelians have a better story, and the dude that met the UFO Aliens is still alive and still telling the story firsthand that he met the green men from space.

 

If aliens came to earth to save us, isn't that super cool! No other religion has that message, so then Raelians must be right and have the true religion!

 

Illogical and irrational arguments can always be countered with someone elses illogical and irrational argument.

[-Demona-]

I recently asked my brother-in-law this question.  He said (rather excitedly) that Christianity is the only religion where god actually came to earth in human form and walked with us.  NO other religion can say that!  And that makes Christianity better, and true!  <sigh>.  I really love my bro-in-law and he's actually pretty smart, but I was a little dumbfounded at this rather blatant divergence of reason from his normally logical thought processes....

You should have told him about the Greek demi-god Heracles (known to the Romans as "Hercules"). He was the son of the king of the Gods, was an extraordinary child, performed 12 unbelievable feats (which no mere mortal man could accomplish) in his lifetime, and went into the underworld to capture the guard-dog Cerberus and rescue a woman, and was unwittingly poisoned by his wife.

 

Oh yeah, and he actually rose to full godhood after death.

[Checkmate]

BIBLE = Basically Ignorant Babble for a Lobotomized Enterprise

 

i.e. Handbook for powerhungry bigots, wanting to corrupt politics and society and become emperors.

 

 

No, no, no. You got it wrong. It's "Bullshit Information By Lying Evangelists".

 

But seriously, folks. Good luck with getting lucid responses to this query. By my last count only THREE Xians dared take a stab at my "Why do Xians disagree about the BIBLE?" post. (And two of the 3 were just venom and stupidity!)

 

They won't answer, because they CAN'T. (At least, not with any GOOD responses.)

[Mike D]

I tried to explain to him that yes, the story of Christianity is different than other religions, but that doesn't make the religion itself superior or more likely to be true, it only makes it a better story (and even that all depends on someone's subjective idea of what makes a 'better' story, heh). But Christianity is functionally no different from any other religion. You have 1.) a god, 2.) some "special agents" of God (prophets, mullahs, saviors, disciples, etc) who received messages from him, 3.) those agents interpret his messages and wrote them down in holy books for the not-so-special masses to hear god's message second-hand. 4.) followers are advised not to deviate from the "true" message book, lest they be punished for rebelling. If Christianity was really the one true religion you would think God would have a different method of communicating with his creations than doing the same old thing as all those other "false" gods that don't even exist. It's amazing how non-existent false gods can "prove" their existence just exactly like an existent true god like Jehova

[Isak The Newt]

hahaha Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, hahaha that just cracks me up its an awsome acronym...

[-Demona-]

OT remark: Oooo... my topic got pinnededed!

 

*slinks back into the darkness and waits to pounce on the first Christian to show up*

[Fweethawt]

Basic

Instructions

Before

Leaving

Earth

 

Stuey, are you sure it doesn't go like this?

 

Bullshit

Ingrained

Before

Life

Ends

 

[Guest zijan]

So far i've been very dissapointed with the responses by both believers and non-believers. Here is my defense: I, as a reletivly unorthodox but practicing christain, feel my faith has helped me through some very difficult times. Now many of you will point out that many people use faith as a crutch. This is true. However, think about how many people would have killed themselves or worse someone else without that faith. A topic like this should never be written, nor should a site like this ever need to exist. I am thankful that someone had the guts to create a site like this, however. This is exactly what it needed. But back to my faith. I personally can say that without faith in God, i would not be writing this today. I would be 6 feet under and have been rotting for at least 6 years. I'm 19. My faith has helped me to gain strength in all of my undertakings, from school to friends to SCUBA. But i solidly believe that faith isn't for everybody and anyone who says different is trying to sell you something. There are many extremists out there on both sides of this issue, but maybe we should try a more lengthy explanaition, rather than this bicker back and forth that i see so often. If only you all would LISTEN and hold your tongue rather than immediatly defend your opinion or attack someone elses. I expect to draw ire from both sides of the spectrum, but lets have an actual discussion, shall we?

[Guest zijan]

However, it seems that i am the only christian to post on this topic. How dissapointing.

[scotter]

‘Just to add a voice, not necessarily every member in ex-C.net is non-believer or atheist.

 

Good for you as a Christian Zijan, and you made it by a strong faith. There is a wonderful life ahead of you.

 

As a theist who believes in the Divine, I am perhaps the minority here (and thanks to members here I am still warmly accepted).

 

‘Suggested is to take some time reading the “anti-testimonies” of ex-Christians: e.g. Christianity was to the degree of destroying them and their families so they exited. There are other reasons of leaving Christianity written by other members. Each story is unique but shares something in common: they came off feeling free leaving Jesus. You come off feeling free believing in Jesus.

 

It is not surprising to me that Christianity is not a universal dose (God is intelligent enough to know that, I say with due respect). Christianity is one faith (temp. put aside Catholicism, Lutheran, Baptist denomination division….), and there are 6 billion people on earth i.e. 6 billion personalities, 6 billion unique thoughts and wants.

 

That said, it basically comes down to Christianity works for you, and did not work for the ex-Christians.

 

Zijan, perhaps first tell us a little bit of your testimony so we know better where you are coming from. At least there is one person who is interested in your story and can relate to you.

 

.

[-Demona-]

A topic like this should never be written, nor should a site like this ever need to exist.  I am thankful that someone had the guts to create a site like this, however.  This is exactly what it needed.

 

Why shouldn't I have created this topic? Do you realize how many Christians come in here condemning us all to hell because we don't believe what they believe? Do you realize how annoying that gets?

 

This site/forum is intended as a support system for those who walked away from Christianity. For some of us, being Christian wasn't all peaches and perfection, but was in fact quite emotionally damaging.

 

Those kinds of Christians who condemn us are exactly the Christians I wanted to answer. Christians who are more tolerant and won't point fingers at those who don't live by their spiritual standards (TAP, BigToe and my mother immediately come to mind) are exempt from my challenge. They have proven themselves by their actions and words. The ones who are intolerant and look down their noses at us as if none of us were ever Christian are the ones who are supposed to be answering my challenge.

 

By the way, I'm swaying between agnostic and theist at this point. I'm open to the possibility of a God, but in the past 22 years of my life, I have yet to see evidence of one. I just simply don't see God as Christianity would have it and, believe me, I came through to that realization the hard way. I still hold some "supernatural" beliefs, however.

 

There are many extremists out there on both sides of this issue, but maybe we should try a more lengthy explanaition, rather than this bicker back and forth that i see so often.  If only you all would LISTEN and hold your tongue rather than immediatly defend your opinion or attack someone elses.  I expect to draw ire from both sides of the spectrum, but lets have an actual discussion, shall we?

 

Excuse me? In case you haven't noticed, I don't post nearly as often as some of the other members. But I listen plenty, and I try to make my posts count. I am normally not a debater, but after seeing the self-righteous types of Christian tear through here as if they own the joint, well... let's just say I don't like people making a mess of my home when they haven't been invited to the party.

 

This is also the Debate Forum. "Bickering" is part and parcel of posting in this section. It's well within my abilities to issue a challenge to the Christian members of the board. I am not defying the webmaster's rules and a moderator even agreed with my topic, as they decided to pin it so it wouldn't get lost in the other threads. So I must be doing something right.

 

I'm open to a discussion certainly, hence why I created this topic. Just tell me why your beliefs are so much "better" than anyone else's. I won't interrupt and, if you make a good, well thought-out, logical post in response, I'll give you a cookie. Ok?

 

Now, either answer my challenge directly or don't. Either way, stop pointing fingers and accusing us all of being inhospitable and get down to the business of defending your religion (or not, it's your choice). The only person you have to talk to directly in this topic (if you choose to answer my challenge) is me, but the other members are, of course, free to critique.

 

As I said in the starting post, if your faith is really that strong and you are that certain of the religion you follow, you have nothing to fear from a discussion about it with me.

 

I'm one of the gentler types here, and I will only lose my patience with you if you start getting cocky or self-righteous. Needless to say, you didn't exactly start on the right foot with me. Wanna try again?

[Guest Priapus]

So far i've been very dissapointed with the responses by both believers and non-believers. Here is my defense: I, as a reletivly unorthodox but practicing christain, feel my faith has helped me through some very difficult times.  Now many of you will point out that many people use faith as a crutch.  This is true.  However, think about how many people would have killed themselves or worse someone else without that faith. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This is well and good and I'm glad ye still walks among us. I know first-hand from my years as a Faithful Believer of the power of faith. To that end, however, I have also come to realize that belief does not make so. I can believe that my bed has magic power that keeps monsters from eating me in the night. I have not been eaten in the night, thus, my bed's magic must be real.

 

I describe in the He Touched Me thread how my faith in God's Love helped me to learn to love and accept myself. Just as a broken leg does need a crutch, once that leg's healed, the crutch can be discarded. The crutch did not walk for me, it merely enabled me to walk until I was able to do it on my own, as I was meant to do.

[Guest Clandestiny]

Forget religion.

 

This isn’t about having better beliefs, cooler rituals, or stronger gods.

 

Assuming there’s a heaven, and it is perfect, to enter we must all be perfect. However, and this is where sin comes in, we aren’t. The definition of “sin” is very simply “Missing the mark”, or not being perfect. To not be perfect, is to sin. Thus we can conclude that man has a “sin nature”, since man isn’t perfect.

 

Following this definition of heaven, no man can ever enter heaven on his own. Why? We have a sin nature, by nature/definition/default, whatever, we aren’t perfect. If you’re reading this and you don’t like justice, then feel free to hit alt-f4 (or apple-q if you’re on a mac). The God of the Bible is a fair god, you get what you deserve. Just now, I angered a lot of people who saw their good friends hurt for seemingly no reason. The reason one would get angered by that statement is because they don’t believe in an eternal soul, which is a discussion all it’s own. Not everything comes with instant gratification. A person may suffer in ways I can’t even fathom, yet be rewarded in ways I can’t even fathom in the afterlife. And vice versa as well.

 

Now picture a courtroom, where you’re being charged with the murder of a family. The evidence is stacked, and you’re very clearly guilty. You truly are sorry, and sincerely plead that not only would you never do what you did again, if you could go back and change things you would. Would you begin to tell the judge about all those charities you donated too, or all those youth you helped teach to read? Do you really think it would matter? Either you pay 20 million dollars or be put to death. The judge’s gavel is falling. Just before he hits his desk, a man bursts into the courtroom with tears streaming down his face. He whips out his checkbook, and writes “20 million” and gives it to the judge. Your fine is paid, and you’re free. The man is Jesus, and the fine is your “sin debt”. You can’t enter back into the free world unless the debt is paid, and Jesus is the only amount we have that can repay it. “It is finished”, Jesus’s last words, is an accounting term, meaning “Debt paid in full”.

 

It’s saddening to see that Christians are viewed as acting as though we have “a monopoly on the truth”, but I do know the attitude you’re talking about. The Buddhist who says “You shouldn’t stab babies in the eyes because it’s wrong” is no less wrong than the Christian who says “Thou shalt not stab babies in thine eyes, for it be wrong foo”.

 

My conversion to Christianity (about a year ago) wasn’t an easy thing. I had to branch out and read many books. I was always a very neutral person, and was an Agnostic for most of my life. My thought was “There is no evidence for God, that’s why they call it faith”, but I didn’t really care if others had it. I was on a cruise with my best friend when I found out he was Christian (honestly not the best role model for the time I had known him) and I was asking him all these questions. I wasn’t a strong believer in evolution but I just kind of assumed it to be true. No skin off my back, right? His dad being a pastor helped a lot, since he would have answers to even my toughest of questions, and anything he couldn’t answer his dad could. About this time I read a book called “Case for Faith”, which is essentially several different science based reasons to have faith. I find comfort in the Big Bang, at least for the idea of a God, whether it be a distant non interactive God (deist) or interactive one (theist). The Big Bang works like this: There was nothing: then there was a universe. I admit the definition has changed to suit a more atheistic viewpoint of : Everything that is was smashed into an infinitesimally small point, and blew up into the universe we see now. With the nothing to universe scenario, there has to be an outside force, something that transcends space and time. This is because before there was the universe, there was no space, there was no time. There was nothing. Nothing nothing. The problem with the smashed stuff to universe is that basically what scientists are trying to say is “it just happened” which is just silly. You can’t have something sitting somewhere for an infinite amount of time, and then suddenly it transforms. That’s like saying “I sat forever, then I got up and took a jog”. By definition, in order to sit forever, you’d never jog.

 

Belief in Jesus isn’t religion.

 

Was this a good response?

[Vigile]

Forget religion.

 

 

Assuming there’s a heaven, and it is perfect, to enter we must all be perfect.  However, and this is where sin comes in, we aren’t.  The definition of “sin” is very simply “Missing the mark”, or not being perfect.  To not be perfect, is to sin.  Thus we can conclude that man has a “sin nature”, since man isn’t perfect.

 

 

Wow, that was deeeeep...

 

I don't think I've ever heard it put like that before. I was a christian for 25 years, but I just never got the idea that we are sinful therefore we are unworthy without christ's blood. Bad, bad, evil people we are.

[Isak The Newt]

still no sight of invictus on this thread? (gasp)

[-Demona-]

Clandestiny's comments are in red.

 

Forget religion. This isn’t about having better beliefs, cooler rituals, or stronger gods.

 

Where in my previous posts in this topic did I mention anything about "cooler rituals" or anything of that nature? I was referring to the basic tenets of various religions. The basic beliefs of each belief system.

 

Don't read crap into my words that wasn't even there in the first place.

 

Assuming there’s a heaven, and it is perfect, to enter we must all be perfect. However, and this is where sin comes in, we aren’t. The definition of “sin” is very simply “Missing the mark”, or not being perfect. To not be perfect, is to sin. Thus we can conclude that man has a “sin nature”, since man isn’t perfect.

 

Of course, man is imperfect. No crap, Sherlock, that imperfection is part of being human. I think everybody already knows that coming into the game of life. Unless one has delusions of grandeur, we all are aware of our own imperfections and limitations.

 

The definition of sin isn't "to miss the mark", however. The dictionary defines it as "a transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate" and "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God".

 

Nice try though. Don't go redefining words to try to prove your point.

 

Following this definition of heaven, no man can ever enter heaven on his own. Why? We have a sin nature, by nature/definition/default, whatever, we aren’t perfect. If you’re reading this and you don’t like justice, then feel free to hit alt-f4 (or apple-q if you’re on a mac).

 

Blah, blah, blah. There's a point to this, isn't there, other than insulting your reader's intelligence?

 

The God of the Bible is a fair god, you get what you deserve. Just now, I angered a lot of people who saw their good friends hurt for seemingly no reason. The reason one would get angered by that statement is because they don’t believe in an eternal soul, which is a discussion all it’s own.

 

If God's so fair, then why are there Bible verses about how God decreed the slaughter of innocent children, and Biblical laws referring to women as property for the "owner" (ie. father or husband) to be reimbursed if said property is used before its sell-by date?

 

If God was so fair, he wouldn't be reported in his own book as a tyrant.

 

Not everything comes with instant gratification.

 

No duh. You don't have to be Christian to understand that. I learned that through working in a training center on an associate's degree in Computer Science for two years. You get back what you put out into the world.

 

Amazing how I didn't have to go to church to learn that, huh? I just went back to school to do it.

 

A person may suffer in ways I can’t even fathom, yet be rewarded in ways I can’t even fathom in the afterlife. And vice versa as well.

 

Now picture a courtroom, where you’re being charged with the murder of a family. The evidence is stacked, and you’re very clearly guilty. You truly are sorry, and sincerely plead that not only would you never do what you did again, if you could go back and change things you would. Would you begin to tell the judge about all those charities you donated too, or all those youth you helped teach to read? Do you really think it would matter? Either you pay 20 million dollars or be put to death. The judge’s gavel is falling. Just before he hits his desk, a man bursts into the courtroom with tears streaming down his face. He whips out his checkbook, and writes “20 million” and gives it to the judge. Your fine is paid, and you’re free. The man is Jesus, and the fine is your “sin debt”. You can’t enter back into the free world unless the debt is paid, and Jesus is the only amount we have that can repay it. “It is finished”, Jesus’s last words, is an accounting term, meaning “Debt paid in full”.

 

Ah, but you're assuming I'm the spiritual equivilent of a murderer, and a cowardly one at that. If I am to be judged for whatever wrongdoings I have done in this life, what makes you think I will shrink away from justice being served if the punishment I am to undergo will fit the crime I have commited?

 

I don't need Jesus to save me. If I've done the crime, I will gladly do the time and let justice be served (because I have a deeply ingrained sense of justice that has nothing to do with having lived in a Christian household). However, if I'm innocent of wrongdoing and will still be punished because I wear a 12-pointed pentacle around my neck (part of a "good luck" necklace that I wear with the pentacle hidden under my shirt) because it's occult in nature and not something the judge wants to see, would that be fair judgement? Of course not.

 

What if my skin were tattooed with Chinese phrases? Or what about the fact that I wear so much dark clothing, and the judge has a problem with people who even remotely resemble Goths or Punks? Would his harsh judgement of me be fair? No.

 

So, if God were to judge me on the Big Day and he automatically wrote me off as guilty for not being a Christian, regardless of whether or not I actually did anything wrong (and just for the crime of being born human and using the brain he gave me!), would that be fair? Absolutely not.

 

After all, if he wanted us to become the best that is possible for us, he shouldn't have set the bar so damn high while knowing that none of us will ever reach it (and knowing that even he comes up short as well!). And he would be more of a hands-on parent, teaching us how to do things the right way rather than leaving his "beloved children", humanity, to twist in the wind and struggle to figure things out for ourselves.

 

Your argument also assumes that non-Christians do not feel regret for wrongdoing, or don't have an internal compass to keep us on the straight and narrow path. You like to assume a lot of things, don't you?

 

It’s saddening to see that Christians are viewed as acting as though we have “a monopoly on the truth”, but I do know the attitude you’re talking about. The Buddhist who says “You shouldn’t stab babies in the eyes because it’s wrong” is no less wrong than the Christian who says “Thou shalt not stab babies in thine eyes, for it be wrong foo”.

 

I wasn't referring to all Christians in the world. I was referring to the ones here who make such claims that they are better than anyone else because they have Jesus.

 

I have several Christian friends, relatives and associates in my offline life who, despite the fact I don't like their religion particularly, I like them for the people they are. They have done no wrong to me, and have proven themselves genuine by their words and actions. They do not preach to me about how I need Jesus, nor do I regale them with information about biblical fallacy. Mutual respect, you see.

 

What I have noticed however is that, once some types of Christians get online and don't see the face of the person they're speaking to, they feel they have permission to aim their proselytization at others like they're in a shooting range. A classic "us vs. them" mentality. Because we're seen as text on the information highway, it becomes easy to forget there's a human being manning the controls behind the typeface.

 

And what would be your suggestion how we respond to such quite frankly uncouth, dehumanizing behaviour? Why, challenge those who would like to pick a fight, naturally.

 

My conversion to Christianity (about a year ago) wasn’t an easy thing. I had to branch out and read many books. I was always a very neutral person, and was an Agnostic for most of my life. My thought was “There is no evidence for God, that’s why they call it faith”, but I didn’t really care if others had it. I was on a cruise with my best friend when I found out he was Christian (honestly not the best role model for the time I had known him) and I was asking him all these questions. I wasn’t a strong believer in evolution but I just kind of assumed it to be true. No skin off my back, right? His dad being a pastor helped a lot, since he would have answers to even my toughest of questions, and anything he couldn’t answer his dad could.

 

You're arguing on an emotional level. I asked for physical proof and literary references. Not a personal testimony. Hence, while I sympathize, this part of your post is intellectually irrelevent.

 

About this time I read a book called “Case for Faith”, which is essentially several different science based reasons to have faith. I find comfort in the Big Bang, at least for the idea of a God, whether it be a distant non interactive God (deist) or interactive one (theist). The Big Bang works like this: There was nothing: then there was a universe. I admit the definition has changed to suit a more atheistic viewpoint of : Everything that is was smashed into an infinitesimally small point, and blew up into the universe we see now. With the nothing to universe scenario, there has to be an outside force, something that transcends space and time. This is because before there was the universe, there was no space, there was no time. There was nothing. Nothing nothing. The problem with the smashed stuff to universe is that basically what scientists are trying to say is “it just happened” which is just silly. You can’t have something sitting somewhere for an infinite amount of time, and then suddenly it transforms. That’s like saying “I sat forever, then I got up and took a jog”. By definition, in order to sit forever, you’d never jog.

 

Science isn't able to explain everything because we don't know everything yet. But science also has in-built checks and balances. It changes all the time due to new discoveries.

 

Ok, so let's say for the moment that there definitely is a God and that it has been proven scientifically. Out of all the Gods in human mythology, which one is he? Or is he none of the above? Or is he actually a she? What are the odds of the God who started the Big Bang being the Christian God?

 

Fact is, you can't prove the Christian God exists anymore than you can prove Zeus or Osiris exist. All you have is "faith" that they're real. But just because you believe it doesn't mean it's necessarily so.

 

Belief in Jesus isn’t religion.

 

Actually, yes it is. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity. He was referred to as the Christ for two millenia, hence believers in Jesus the Christ are.... *drum roll* Christians!

 

And their official emblems consist of a cross and a fish. Now what other than an actual religion would provide emblems to show who's a member of their little club? If you wear on of these emblems, put a sticker of one on your car or anywhere in your household, or use a keychain for your personal keys with one of these emblems, you're marked as part of the Christian religion. Like it or not.

 

Was this a good response?

 

Not really. It was just long-winded.

[Ouroboros]

So far i've been very dissapointed with the responses by both believers and non-believers. Here is my defense: I, as a reletivly unorthodox but practicing christain, feel my faith has helped me through some very difficult times.  Now many of you will point out that many people use faith as a crutch.  This is true.  However, think about how many people would have killed themselves or worse someone else without that faith.

I was thinking about killing myself many times the last years of my Christianity. So did my wife, and some of my kids. We went through a time (and still do) of hardship and "testing", and if God did it, his purpose was for us to de-convert.

 

My de-conversion saved me, and my family. So the process of change in life, is the power that can set you free. Not necessarily what you change to or from.

 

I'm glad for you that it gave you strenght. And you have not reached a level a maturity to understand that your truth, is not the universal truth. You have yet a lot to learn.

 

A topic like this should never be written, nor should a site like this ever need to exist. I am thankful that someone had the guts to create a site like this, however.  This is exactly what it needed.  But back to my faith.  I personally can say that without faith in God, i would not be writing this today.  I would be 6 feet under and have been rotting for at least 6 years. I'm 19. My faith has helped me to gain strength in all of my undertakings, from school to friends to SCUBA.

That's all good. And I think we have the freedom, and should have the freedom to believe whatever we want to believe.

 

But i solidly believe that faith isn't for everybody and anyone who says different is trying to sell you something.

Agree.

 

There are many extremists out there on both sides of this issue, but maybe we should try a more lengthy explanaition, rather than this bicker back and forth that i see so often.  If only you all would LISTEN and hold your tongue rather than immediatly defend your opinion or attack someone elses.  I expect to draw ire from both sides of the spectrum, but lets have an actual discussion, shall we?

There is a problem to maintain that kind of level of discussion, because everyone comes from so many different backgrounds. And everyone have different personality and skills. It's an impossible demand to ask for. Some people have been really hurt (molested and abused) from Christians, and literally hate their guts, and some (more like me) was never hurt by any individual, but hurt by how our faith in God and the Bible didn't match up with reality.

[Guest Clandestiny]

Where in my previous posts in this topic did I mention anything about "cooler rituals" or anything of that nature? I was referring to the basic tenets of various religions. The basic beliefs of each belief system.

 

Don't read crap into my words that wasn't even there in the first place.

 

I’m trying to make light of the discussion, because I’m not mentally capable of being 100% serious in any conversation. Cooler rituals, fancy emblems, stronger gods etc; is my outlet for not coming off ultra serious.

 

Of course, man is imperfect. No crap, Sherlock, that imperfection is part of being human. I think everybody already knows that coming into the game of life. Unless one has delusions of grandeur, we all are aware of our own imperfections and limitations.

 

The definition of sin isn't "to miss the mark", however. The dictionary defines it as "a transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate" and "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God".

 

Nice try though. Don't go redefining words to try to prove your point.

 

Okay, let me rephrase: The word sin in Greek meant to “miss the mark”. It’s an archery term. Aim for the Bulls Eye -> miss -> bam you’ve “sinned”.

 

Blah, blah, blah. There's a point to this, isn't there, other than insulting your reader's intelligence?

 

My remark about alt-f4 was another joke, and actually a segway into the next paragraph. Justice being fair, etc… The fact is outside of perfection you can’t enter heaven.

 

If God's so fair, then why are there Bible verses about how God decreed the slaughter of innocent children, and Biblical laws referring to women as property for the "owner" (ie. father or husband) to be reimbursed if said property is used before its sell-by date?

 

If God was so fair, he wouldn't be reported in his own book as a tyrant.

 

Sounds like you’re referring to Exodus, where God allowed the slaughter of all the first-born of Egypt. It’s simple obedience, the Egyptians brought it on themselves. God commanded to put the blood of the lamb on the doorway, over it, etc, and their house would be passed over, allowing the first born not to be taken. God says “Do this, and you’ll be okay”. It’d be like if the President told you “Hey, there’s a bomb coming, and if you stand in my shelter, you’ll be okay.” But you’re like, “…Naah, I don’t feel like it.”

 

In terms of women being treated as property, that was more as the times. God didn’t command women to be treated like dirt, it’s just kind of how it was. History books aren’t racist because they have slavery in it, are they?

 

No duh. You don't have to be Christian to understand that. I learned that through working in a training center on an associate's degree in Computer Science for two years. You get back what you put out into the world.

 

Amazing how I didn't have to go to church to learn that, huh? I just went back to school to do it.

 

That statement had nothing to do with being Christian, or church. It had everything to do with believing in an eternal soul. Notice the connection between that sentence and the paragraph prior? The idea was not everything comes with instant gratification, and to a person who believes this life is it, than something like their good friends living and dieing crappily will get angered by “The God of the Bible is a fair god, you get what you deserve”. To someone who believes in an afterlife, they understand that although this life may suck now, the gratification will come after death. To a humanist, that possibility doesn’t exist.

 

Ah, but you're assuming I'm the spiritual equivilent of a murderer, and a cowardly one at that. If I am to be judged for whatever wrongdoings I have done in this life, what makes you think I will shrink away from justice being served if the punishment I am to undergo will fit the crime I have commited?

 

I don't need Jesus to save me. If I've done the crime, I will gladly do the time and let justice be served (because I have a deeply ingrained sense of justice that has nothing to do with having lived in a Christian household). However, if I'm innocent of wrongdoing and will still be punished because I wear a 12-pointed pentacle around my neck (part of a "good luck" necklace that I wear with the pentacle hidden under my shirt) because it's occult in nature and not something the judge wants to see, would that be fair judgement? Of course not.

 

What if my skin were tattooed with Chinese phrases? Or what about the fact that I wear so much dark clothing, and the judge has a problem with people who even remotely resemble Goths or Punks? Would his harsh judgement of me be fair? No.

 

So, if God were to judge me on the Big Day and he automatically wrote me off as guilty for not being a Christian, regardless of whether or not I actually did anything wrong (and just for the crime of being born human and using the brain he gave me!), would that be fair? Absolutely not.

 

After all, if he wanted us to become the best that is possible for us, he shouldn't have set the bar so damn high while knowing that none of us will ever reach it (and knowing that even he comes up short as well!). And he would be more of a hands-on parent, teaching us how do do things the right way rather than leaving his "beloved children", humanity, to twist in the wind and struggle to figure things out for ourselves.

 

Your argument also assumes that non-Christians do not feel regret for wrongdoing, or don't have an internal compass to keep us on the straight and narrow path. You like to assume a lot of things, don't you?

 

Jesus already died for us, as the story goes. It was God’s gift to us. How does that make a Christian a coward for accepting it? When Jesus was crucified, he took all of the sin of the world on his shoulders. Justice has been served, it was served on the cross. In terms of doing the time and serving justice, I think it’s very good that you have an ingrained sense of justice, however this is time you (or anyone) can even begin to hope to serve.

 

Why would you be punished because you wear a 12-pointed pentacle around your neck? Sure, it’s one of those things that can open you up to demonic influences, and overall just bad vibes, but none of that is even guaranteed.

 

If God were to judge you, yes, you’d be written off as guilty. Do not stress though, I don’t know of any person here that wouldn’t be. The Bible very clearly states that we’re all sinners, and we’ve all fallen short of the glory of God. The difference is Heaven’s bouncer is Jesus and he’s going to get me in. Obviously an analogy and again, joking, so please don’t read too into it.

 

Well, God created us perfect, we just decided to Sin. Jesus is the normal human being, He’s what we were like, and what we’re supposed to be like. If the bar were set to any attainable level, then we’d get “High priests” who’ve reached that level, then what happens? They become pompous and damn themselves. Pretty soon everybody fails. You’re assuming he isn’t a hands on deity, that he didn’t teach us to do things the right way, etc. Hello, what do you think the Bible is about, what about miraculous healings? There has been scientific research done on prayer and it’s effect on sick patients. 3 groups, group A and group B are both sick, while group C prayers for group B. The evidence showed a significant decrease (ie, not chance/luck) in the recovery time for group B.

 

Actually, I never said non-Christians feel no regret for wrong-doing: it’s absolutely absurd for you to read that from what I wrote. Where does that internal compass come from?

 

I wasn't referring to all Christians in the world. I was referring to the ones here who make such claims that they are better than anyone else because they have Jesus.

 

I have several Christian friends, relatives and associates in my offline life who, despite the fact I don't like their religion particularly, I like them for the people they are. They have done no wrong to me, and have proven themselves genuine by their words and actions. They do not preach to me about how I need Jesus, nor do I regale them with information about biblical fallacy. Mutual respect, you see.

 

What I have noticed however is that, once some types of Christians get online and don't see the face of the person they're speaking to, they feel they have permission to aim their proselytization at others like they're in a shooting range. A classic "us vs. them" mentality. Because we're seen as text on the information highway, it becomes easy to forget there's a human being manning the controls behind the typeface.

 

And what would be your suggestion how we respond to such quite frankly uncouth, dehumanizing behaviour? Why, challenge those who would like to pick a fight, naturally.

 

That was my bad, I did phrase that wrong. I actually meant to say “It’s saddening to see Christians with that attitude”. Sorry.

 

Please, regale me with information about biblical fallacy. I’ve often found that “biblical contradictions” and what not are answered in about 20 minutes of research. Not all the time, and some answers are more like “Well, that’s a stretch, but there is an answer”.

 

You’re right, the internet does turn into a classic “us vs. them” mentality. That’s why you started this thread, right?

 

I think you should defend your convictions. I think if an Atheist is truly Atheist, than he should be able to debate it and hold his own. The same for a Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, etc. That’s why I responded to your thread, you proposed debate, and I went for it. It’s the best way to learn anyway.

 

You're arguing on an emotional level. I asked for physical proof and literary references. Not a personal testimony. Hence, while I sympathize, this part of your post is intellectually irrelevent.

 

Alright, we’ll pretend that paragraph was never written.

 

Science isn't able to explain everything because we don't know everything yet. But science also has in-built checks and balances. It changes all the time due to new discoveries.

 

Ok, so let's say for the moment that there definitely is a God and that it has been proven scientifically. Out of all the Gods in human mythology, which one is he? Or is he none of the above? Or is he actually a she? What are the odds of the God who started the Big Bang being the Christian God?

 

Fact is, you can't prove the Christian God exists anymore than you can prove Zeus or Osiris exist. All you have is "faith" that they're real. But just because you believe it doesn't mean it's necessarily so.

 

If we don’t know everything yet, how are we capable of concluding there isn’t a God? You’re right, science does change all the time due to new discoveries, however the evidence currently doesn’t point atheistically.

 

Intelligent design has nothing to do with the character of “God”. All intelligent design states is that something created everything. It never says that it’s the Christian God, a male God, or a female God.

 

You’re right, I can’t definitively prove 100% that God exists, however you also equivalently can’t disprove God. All you have is faith that God doesn’t exist, I have faith that he does. I also have a lot of signs pointing in my direction, as I’m sure you do. Belief doesn’t make it true.

 

Actually, yes it is. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity. He was referred to as the Christ for two millenia, hence believers in Jesus the Christ are.... *drum roll* Christians!

 

And their official emblems consist of a cross and a fish. Now what other than an actual religion would provide emblems to show who's a member of their little club? If you wear on of these emblems, put a sticker of one on your car or anywhere in your household, or use a keychain for your personal keys with one of these emblems, you're marked as part of the Christian religion. Like it or not.

 

Actually, no, belief in Jesus is not religion. The logic is horrendous, “You’re called a Christian, so you’re in a religion!” Evolutionists believe in evolution, but are they in a religion? Of course not! Christianity is alllll about your relationship with God, with Jesus. It’s not about all the hate it can, and has, been turned in to. Proceed to throw the dictionary definition of “religion” in my face now, please.

 

Not really. It was just long-winded.

 

Fair enough.

[Vixentrox]

Hahaha....ROFLMAO.....

 

Good responses Thankful. It tickled me for some reason...I blame the painkillers.