Challenge to Christians.

[Guest furnifixer]

Excuses, excuses. Either biblegod is a liar or he doesn't exist.  I say he doesn't exist but if he does, we can add liar to his other attributes of monster, murderer, etc.

 

I have no respect for child abusers, but yet you want me to worship (again) the monster portrayed in the bible.  I have no respect for liars either, yet you would have me respect and worship biblegod (again). 

 

Society looks down on parents who CONSTANTLY tells their children that they'll do something and then not do it.  It's lying and if a child stops believing their parent because the parent has told lie, after lie, after lie; the parent has lost rights to demand honor and/or respect.  I look down on biblegod and that lame excuse of a mythical Savior Jesus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thankful, it's clear that you are one of those that have made up their mind. So I hardly see the point of you debating with me (or me with you). You say He doesn't exist and even if He does He's evil. Not sure what else there is to say. I hope that works for you.

 

Maybe you could tell me how your savior is better? Or is that you?

 

Doug

[Cerise]

thankful doesn't need a saviour. There is nothing wrong with her inherently that she needs to be saved from.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.  Jesus is a person who I want to know more about and learn to love more every day. The Bible is one of the ways that I learn more about Him. But that's about relationship, not about systems and structures and denominations and "organized religion".  We have a linguistics problem because you take "religion" to mean faith in a God. I mean it as a man-made system that often confused and befuddles the true point of relationship. The same with "church" - people take that to mean the local congregation and/or it's building, but the true Body of Christ is something that transcends that and can't be contained by Man.

A person you have relationship with, is someone you can know and trust. You tell me that you trust Jesus, and you trust what Jesus said, but still, later in your post you excuse Jesus from doing what Jesus promised to do. Jesus said he would heal the sick, he would answer ALL prayers, and yet you say Jesus only answers prayers at his convenience and not always. Jesus is only a random number generator, that occasionally you happen to make the right prayer when the right number came up, so you won the heavenly lotto, and some small, natural explainable, event took place, and you’re all happy.

 

You would have more chance to hitting the jackpot of miracles if you didn’t pray, and saw every day’s situation as a miracle. Every event, every turn you make with your car every day, or every day you eat your breakfast, is a miraculous event.

 

You have no relationship with Jesus. You are FOOLED!

 

“He always likes when you do that.” That sounds spooky. Almost like the abused wife excusing her husband for demanding her to bring him the slippers and the newspaper!

 

Can't help sounding spooky. Evidently, according to some here, I spend a lot of time talking to invisible friends who are entirely made up in my own mind.  Pretty much ought to sound spooky, dontcha think?

Exactly! Talking to imaginary friends is usually considered schizophrenic, but the people in this site actually ANSWERS, and pretty much 100% of the time!!! So you get more miracles by sending your prayer to this site, than calling it out in the air. Here you will get a response one way or another, prayer doesn’t.

 

Wait a minute! Are you a minister? In service, traveling and healing people?

I have a wonderful RELATIONSHIP with REAL people, and it’s 10,000 times better than the relationship you can have with a fictitious person. A relationship with Santa Claus won’t give you more Christmas presents!

 

I'm just a guy with a furniture store saying things people think are weird. I'm not on anybody's payroll.  However, as all Christians should be, I am in "service" and we're all supposed to be "ministers" of the Gospel.  And the Great Commission says that ALL Christians are to go and heal people and cast out demons in His name and disciple all nations. But I'm not what you'd call "clergy".

You see, this is a problem. You have seen GREAT MIRACLES, and yet they didn’t convince you enough to trust God to send you into ministries. Where’s your faith, brother? Jesus called you to go out and preach and heal the sick, why aren’t you?

 

Ok, I have a prayer request. God knows what it is, and I want you and your friends to gather as soon as possible and pray for my family. I’ll be here waiting and tell you if the miracle happens. If it does, I will convert back and receive Jesus again, in 0.1 seconds. Do you take up on my challenge? Do you trust me to be honest with you, to tell you, if the miracle happens?

 

I know you want this very badly. I believe you would report it honestly.  I believe this need you have is higher on your list of priorities than is winning an argument.

 

I don't control God. Nobody does. He has His own plan. But I can intercede for you and we'll see what happens. Maybe at the very least we'll find out what it is and why it is.

This is the exact reason why prayer doesn’t result in miracles. “A” doesn’t necessarily lead to “B”, and also didn’t you refer to a miracle to someone that wasn’t prayed for and wasn’t Christian, so this is how the formula goes:

 

Prayer leads sometimes to healing

Prayer leads sometimes to no healing

No prayer leads sometimes to healing

No prayer leads sometimes to no healing

 

You see! Prayer or No prayer leads to healing or no healing. Wow! I have better odds at the poker table in Vegas!

 

You believe in the God that is described in the Bible, therefore you belong to a structured system and an organized religion, just by the fact you follow a given book, and not your own beliefs. Give up the book, or you are a religious person.

 

These ARE my own beliefs. Most of what I've learned about God was shown to me through the Holy Spirit. I had to chuck most of what I learned in "church". I don't owe any MAN for where my understanding has come or for the relationship I have. Again, we have semantics problems. I don't see how I can deny being a "religious" person or a "spiritual" person - or why I would - but that's not the same as being sold out to a SYSTEM instead of a person.

 

I believe in something outside myself.  Do you follow a book? Which one? Surely something in writing has influenced your thinking? Does that mean you're worshipping the book?

Actually, pretty much ALL books I ever read, and every person I ever spoke to in my life is part of what I’ve become. So, NO, I don’t have one favorite book that guides my life. I have MANY books, and none of them particularly guides my life, but the consensus and conglomerated thoughts of many people, give the resulting guidance I have in me.

 

Take up my challenge!

You want to prove God to me? Take up my challenge! We need a miracle, and God knows what. He has known it for 9 years, and 10,000-20,000 people over the whole world prayed for us, and we’re still waiting…

 

All I can do is pray. I don't know what God intends to do with you or this need. I don't know how long it might take.  But I will pray.  I've got needs in my own family that aren't answered yet and some that were.  God has it under control and whatever He wants to do is fine with me.  But if He will truly be glorified and lives can be touched and shown the light of Christ then I will ask for what your family has been praying for.  We'll see.

 

But I'm NOT going to take up the challenge from Vixentrox because that's just mocking and has the wrong spirit altogether. It seems that the argument is more important than the miracle. But Han, I get this is important to you and would make a big difference.

It is important, and it would get into the papers and news if it happened. Our case was in the news, and it also established new case law. I maybe even have to write to President Clinton if the miracle happens.

 

It’s funny, well kind of not actually, that first you come on really strong that “God makes miracles”, but as soon as you’re challenged to prove this, then you say “God doesn’t make miracles all the time” This is really irritating. You shouldn’t claim false promises and then cop-out and pull them back by backpedaling. Start with the TRUTH, that y’all like to refer to, and start with the real promise “God does miracles sometimes at his leisure, and he answers prayers if it is his will only, which is once in billion prayers.” Be honest instead of making such balloon statements in your first post. We don’t buy that here. There’s a no-soliciting sign on the door, and we don’t buy plastic toys for cheap bucks, that break after one use.

[Ouroboros]

I implore you! Do it! Take up my challenge!

 

Dude, I'm not hard of hearing. Once was plenty.

I’m making a statement, and I wanted a reaction from you. I knew already that you would answer the way you did, that God works in mysterious ways.

 

1. God always answers prayers

2. God only answers prayers he wants

3. So God doesn’t always answers prayers

 

So when you claim #1, you are lying. You better start telling the truth when you talk to people. It’s a sin to lie.

 

And I really mean it, I DO WANT THE MIRACLE!

 

This is your hardest challenge ever, and I give you the chance to defend your faith with true miraculous events. So do it!

 

(Hardly the hardest challenge ever. That is the daily effort of getting myself out of the way so Christ in me can increase.)

You really don’t think so? Hah! You have nooooo idea. And you have to prove your faith to be stronger than leading faces from the Word of Faith movement.

 

I don't have to defend MY faith. My personal faith is what it is and it is unshakeable by you or the outcome of this.  Again we have semantics problems - I think what you mean is defend your "religion" or defend "God".  I don't need to defend God, He is what He is. I'm not defending anything. You said what it would take for you to come back to Christ and mean it.  And I assume you were being honest and I assume that you would learn from all the past and if you came back you'd try to find the REAL Jesus and not trust some guy in a suit to tell you what God wants you to do.  So I'm not defending anything, I'm just going to intercede that God would show Himself to you in a way you can't deny. I don't know what that will end up looking like. Maybe it won't be what you expect - but I'm praying it's unmistakeable.

I’m being really honest with you, and you better be honest with me too. Don’t say “X”, and when I challenge your statement you say “X sometimes only”. The Bible is very clear that you should be honest with every word you say.

 

My last prayer was “Please God, I just need something to hold on to, to keep my faith, show me something that is undeniable you.” And nothing happened, and still nothing has happened.

 

You do the same cop-outs I used to do. “Maybe it won’t be what you expect”, so truly, but I don’t want a miracle that I got healed from a cold in three days instead of four, or a headache, or my gas in the car lasted two miles more than it should have. I’m talking about solid, undeniable, unmistakable, irrefutable and tangible evidence that a miraculous event took place. Not just a wet goatskin on the front yard or something.

 

In the meantime, maybe you guys would like to read about a guy raised from the dead? Daniel Ekechukwu The guy that wrote the report is a friend of mine and was very thorough in interviewing witnesses and Daniel himself on more than one occasion. Kind of pokes big holes in a lot of peoples "Once Saved, Always Saved" theologies. People are being raised from the dead regularly in third world countries - thousands of them.

 

Doug

Cheesh. You claim to pickles and shreds. He wasn’t dead, he was in coma, or in a comatose state for two days. He didn’t decompose for two days, and then he woke up.

 

The author’s speculations become almost comical as he continues. He suggests that perhaps the

embalming fluid that was injected into Daniel’s body put him into a trance and also alleviated his

pain until he regained consciousness two days later, or that perhaps Daniel’s body was injected

with something else that put his body into a catatonic state! Moreover, from simply looking at a

CFAN photo of resurrected Daniel and the mortician looking at the coffin where Daniel’s body

was laid for several hours, the author skeptically questions if Daniel could fit into the coffin!

(And the view of the coffin is from the foot-end panel!)

The author questions why Daniel’s body didn’t decay and smell after two days. As I have stated

in my reports from the facts of my firsthand research, there were obviously miraculous things

happening to Daniel’s body while it lay in the mortuary. The mortician twice heard angels

singing at night in his mortuary. Could they have been praising God for the great miracle He was

about to do, and the important message that would be forthcoming? And is it not written in

I don’t trust this kind of arguments. That Daniel’s body didn’t decompose was the proof that he wasn’t dead, and then they use the argument that it was a miracle that he didn’t decompose during those two days!!! FUCK! You assumed a miracle before the miracle happened!

 

The miracle was supposed to be that Daniel was raised from the dead, not a supposedly supernatural suspended animation. Because then HE WAS NOT DEAD!

 

In the old times people had to be kept in the mortuary for three days to make sure you didn’t have mistaken deaths. Where do you think the tradition of the wake comes from? There are cases of people being taken for dead and they were not, and no Jesus or prayers were involved. These things happen without supernatural divine intervention.

 

Give me an example of someone being dead for one month or more, buried and then come out of the grave. That’s an accomplishment.

 

There are witch doctors that can be buried with near stopped heart beats for three days, and the brought back to life. So when the witch doctor does it with the help of his gods that proves that his gods are the true gods according to your argument. Don’t twist it to be demons and stuff, because then you could claim your miracle is demon based too.

[Ouroboros]

How exactly do you suppose 2 bears managed to kill 42 teenagers in a single incident? Did they line up and wait their turn to be mauled? Or were they all in wheelchairs to begin with? (Kinda think they'd all have scattered in different directions, don't you?  )

 

I guess it was accomplished the same way Samson clubbed 1000 Philistines to death with a jawbone? 

Well, it was a miracle, and God already knew how to use the shrinkray from the Arc incident, so he shrunk them and the bears just needed to stomp them, and only one hit with the jawbone, and it was over...

[Ouroboros]

I watched a documentary the other day, while flipping and where "jesus" lived is a plant that does this same thing.  There was some speculation as to whether or not "IF" there was indeed a crucifixion, that this plant in it's liquid form was given to jesus on the sponge.  It blends in with vinegar.

 

***I can't remember how long this effect lasted when given to people.  Hopefully I'll see the documentary in full sometime.

Yeah, I have to research this topic a bit, because over the years I've read facts about "mistaken death", but I can't remember where I have the articles.

 

To be dead, your body has to start decomposing, otherwise you're not dead. That's my take on it.

 

And back to Furnifixe, you stated in your early post "What would it take to make you believe, a miracle?" something like that, right? So my answer was, "Yes a miracle, we need one, pray and we'll see". Then of course you say "Well, I will pray, but don't expect a miracle, maybe something small only." Then my response is "You're without proof since you're argument was a miracle would convince me"

 

But of course you have to pull out other alleged miracles, and that is not convincing, since there are miracles in every religion, and even miracles of just being alive. So please! I wan't to see the miracle, in my life, before I believe again.

[Checkmate]

Thankful, it's clear that you are one of those that have made up their mind. So I hardly see the point of you debating with me (or me with you). You say He doesn't exist and even if He does He's evil.  Not sure what else there is to say. I hope that works for you.

 

Doug

 

FINALLY! A Xian who gets MY point! GO AWAY you goobers! This "debating" with EX-Xians is pointless! WHY are you here? Just to ruffle feathers and cause needless grief?!?!?

 

[sorry about that, Thankful. I know you can handle your own "light work". But these people chap my ass. I apologize for this intrusion from the "Why Do Xians Debate With Non-Xians?" thread. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming, already in progress. ]

[Ouroboros]

Nothing to apologize for and I think we all have stepped into defend another Exer.  Not because we dont' think that one can't defend their posts, but because it hits home. I don't know if defend is appropriate but more like, hey, I feel the same way and that is a statement against me too!  KWIM??

 

Sorry for going off topic.

Sometimes I go in a defend someone else's post just in case they missed it.

 

There's a couple of times I missed posts to me, and a week later I see it, so I don't feel bad to step in on others sub-threads.

[Vigile]

People are being raised from the dead regularly in third world countries - thousands of them.

 

I want you to slow down and think about this statement for a moment. Why are they being raised by the thousands in the third world? Could it be because there are no reliable witnesses, that education levels are lower, that belief in spiritualism is higher?

 

Why is it that UFO eyewitnesses always live in trailer parks in Alabama and have a third grade education?

 

If god can raise the dead in Rwanda he can raise the dead on 60 Minutes for all the world to see. At least he could do it in hospitals for doctors to witness and verify. Why is his evidence always so slippery?

 

You can answer this any way you like, but I hope you can give it serious thought. I don't need an apologetic answer. I just ask that you apply the same dose of healthy skepticism that you would apply to me if I came here making claims that there is a colony of Yeti living in the Himalayas who speak ancient Tibetan and that Sherpas are in regular contact with them.

[Guest furnifixer]

FINALLY!  A Xian who gets MY point!  GO AWAY you goobers!  This "debating" with EX-Xians is pointless!  WHY are you here?  Just to ruffle feathers and cause needless grief?!?!?

 

Nothing to apologize for and I think we all have stepped into defend another Exer.  Not because we dont' think that one can't defend their posts, but because it hits home. I don't know if defend is appropriate but more like, hey, I feel the same way and that is a statement against me too!  KWIM??

 

Sorry for going off topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry. Maybe I misunderstood the point of this thread? Didn't someone on the home page say:

 

"Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind."

 

??

 

YOU asked for this. YOU invited me here. Why are YOU on this thread if it is so frustrating to you. That's what this thread is FOR. I'm not bouncing around YOUR board poking at people. I'm on THE thread where I was invited.

 

Somebody asked me to show how God is real in my life. I'm trying to explain that. I talk to Him and He talks back. I pray for stuff and He answers (one way or the other). I don't even know how to list it all. How about this? I have hypoglycemia. If I miss lunch I get cranky and then dizzy and fall over. The folks at work know to feed me if I get shaky. But in the last six months God as been calling me to fast more and more. I don't DECIDE to fast and most times I don't even know WHY I'm fasting - HE tells me. At first it was just no food. Now it's no food OR water. This month I've been called to fast four times for three days at a time without food or water. In May it was a total of 14 of 31 days. No cravings, no shakiness, no headaches, no problem, feel great, could go for a month if He said wanted me to. Once was eight days, four without food and then four more without even water. Does that make me HOLY? No. But it makes me obedient. I'm not taking pride in this - I can't take credit for fasting like that, it's all God. I don't think my mind is sufficient to overcome my biology like that. Maybe once, but not five or six times a month. I mention it because it's miraculous. And it's "more than a slight push that can be mistaken for a strong wind" as the thread requested.

 

Han, I'm not trying to minimize what God will or will not do. How can I promise what He will do? I can't control Him. That's what the Word of Faith people preach. "If you just believe it strongly enough God will do it for you." That's a flat out lie. You want God to be completely predictable and controllable or he's not God. That's nutty. If he IS God and he's real, then he's way bigger than you or I can understand. You want "make-a-wish" God that always does what you tell him. That'd be handy and there's days I want that too, but it's not realistic.

 

Do I think God's more likely to listen to me than some of those Word of Fatih leaders? Frankly, yeah, I do. I think they're trying to control God and they're in it for the money. They're not under His headship and they're not walking in obedience. Most of them have million dollar homes and shop Rodeo Drive.

 

Han, what if I'm right? What if God is going to do the miracle you're asking for? Maybe you could spend less effort trying to convince me I'm a nut, just in case. You said if this happens it would pretty much HAVE to be God. It's not just going to accidentally happen and whatever could have been tried by science has probably already been tried. I doubt you're going to be hurt by me falsely getting your hopes up or anything - since you're sure I'm wrong. But you said I (we) should pray, so I'm gonna do that.

 

I don't know who else might be out there reading all this, but my email is linked from my profile page if somebody wants to say something without it being out in public where folks may just tell you you're stupid.

 

Doug

[Ouroboros]

Personally I picked up on the topic as "Christians, Defend your faith!"

[Vixentrox]

My problem isn't fixed yet.  I'll check back later.  Maybe god has an excessive backlog of prayers to handle right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No appreciable change to my problem. In fact it worsened. Come on Xtians, don't you want me to belive in your little god again? Surely your prayers will work to bring me back to the fold.

[Checkmate]

I know you want this very badly. I believe you would report it honestly.  I believe this need you have is higher on your list of priorities than is winning an argument.

 

I don't control God. Nobody does. He has His own plan. But I can intercede for you and we'll see what happens. Maybe at the very least we'll find out what it is and why it is.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

All I can do is pray. I don't know what God intends to do with you or this need. I don't know how long it might take.  But I will pray.  I've got needs in my own family that aren't answered yet and some that were.  God has it under control and whatever He wants to do is fine with me.  But if He will truly be glorified and lives can be touched and shown the light of Christ then I will ask for what your family has been praying for.  We'll see.

 

But I'm NOT going to take up the challenge from Vixentrox because that's just mocking and has the wrong spirit altogether. It seems that the argument is more important than the miracle. But Han, I get this is important to you and would make a big difference.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

(Hardly the hardest challenge ever. That is the daily effort of getting myself out of the way so Christ in me can increase.)

----------------------------------------------------

Doug

 

Y'know, I am getting pretty fed up with this typical Xian cop-out! You blather on and on ad nauseum about "God's promises" to answer prayers. About what he WILL do, and CAN do, yadda, yadda, yadda. "This has been a recording."

 

Yet as SOON as an unbeliever calls you on the carpet to prove any of these PROMISES, you immediately backpedal and say that "God" can't be forced to do your will. Or he's not obligated to answer. Or we sinners can't "test" him. And other assorted drivel.

 

What bullshit! What the fuck is the point of making a "promise", (or even telling ME about these so-called "promises") IF "God" is under NO obligation to fulfill his promise!!

 

From what I understand, I thought a PROMISE was a surety, or guarantee to accomplish something. To make a promise as sweeping as, "Anything you ask of Me, THAT I will do", and THEN NOT do it, is a BREACH of promise. Aka a fucking LIE!

 

Why do you Xians continuously say that we can count on the "promises of God", and then out of the other side of your mouth you throw in this caveat, "But God isn't bound to keep any promises made to anyone"? Or you say that it is WE who must fulfill some dubious requirement to QUALIFY for a Promisory Note being honored.

 

What kind of horse shit are you shovelling?

 

I'm sorry, but you are absolutely insane if you TRULY believe this nonsense of yours, and expect ME to swallow it too.

[Ouroboros]

Furnfixed,

 

This is what you said:

You know, that stuff in Acts about miracles and healings and demons is real and it's for today. The gifts it talks about are for us and they're for real. My church never told me that when I was growing up. I've seen stuff I didn't think possible. I've watched people get healed. My wife was instantly cured of years of dependence on anti-depressants. I've talked to sincere, believable people that travel the world and see things we can't even imagine in the USA. I've met people that are sincere and true and fearless and so full of Jesus that you can see it flying out of them. And hardly any of them are in "church". There's not a single day that goes by now that I don't see God move in some miraculous way.

And I challenged you to prove it.

 

Then you say it doesn't happens all the time.

 

So miracles then are not a proof for faith for someone else, but only for you.

That means, I can never change my opinions based on your experience.

I need the experience in MY Family's life, not yours.

 

You see, we didn't get prayers only from word of faith, we got it from multiple Calvary Chappel, and other congregations and denominations I've never heard of. We even had information that churches in Africa was praying for us, and Europe. Even have a letter from Bill Clinton, saying we are in his prayers. And that was 9 years ago, and I was praying and believing until few years back. When other things just broke the last faith I had.

 

If you ever in your life will experience that you ask God for protection, and he doesn't give it to you, but hurt you family for life, bodily harm that can't be repaired, and they 10's of thousands of people all over the world pray for you, and you see no difference, and then when you frantically hang on to the last shred of faith and ask God to give you more faith or just give a little bit back of the gut feeling of faith, it disappears. That day, you will be on my side, and understand that miracles doesn't prove anything, unless you experience them in your own personal life.

 

I'm glad for you that you have miracles, but you yet have to see if God can do the great miracles in your personal life. How come God acts in "mysterious" ways with his own children, without telling them why he hurts them?

 

--- edit

 

Besides you have to Defend Your Faith, meaning we are your sparring partners that you have to defend against. If you don't like it, then you are chicken out from defending your faith, and that's ok, but it's your choice.

 

I'm not trying to scare you away, I'd rather see that you were right, and God would do a miracle in our life. But your challenge IS BIGGER than you think.

[Kryten]

You believers should just go on believing what you want. If you are convinced that God grants you special wishes then great! Don't worry, be happy. It's all good if you think it is. Forget about the TRULY suffering Christians who cry out for God but he is apparently too busy making a traffic light hang on a couple seconds longer so you can be strengthened in YOUR faith.

No need to study God's supposed word. Don't concern yourself with blatant and obvious contradictions (such as the geneology of Jesus or the mutually exclusive resurrection acccounts). Ignore all the attrocities and morally repugnant behavior of the OT god. And don't even THINK about checking out for yourself any of the supposed "more evidence that Jesus lived than George Washington" or whatever crap they feed sheep nowadays. If it feels good in your mind, then just go with it.

Don't believe the infidels here. Satan must have decieved them all of them into thinking they really loved, worshiped, and followed Jesus all those years just to put a hint of doubt in the real believer's mind- such as yourself. But don't hang around here too long or you will start to acquire a taste for BBQed babies and having sex with random people/objects/animals/whatever.

 

Oh, you stayed a little too long and I can feeeel another demon entering your body... Better run while you can!

[Vigile]

You believers should just go on believing what you want.  If you are convinced that God grants you special wishes then great!  Don't worry, be happy.  It's all good if you think it is.  Forget about the TRULY suffering Christians who cry out for God but he is apparently too busy making a traffic light hang on a couple seconds longer so you can be strengthened in YOUR faith.

No need to study God's supposed word.  Don't concern yourself with blatant and obvious contradictions (such as the geneology of Jesus or the mutually exclusive resurrection acccounts).  Ignore all the attrocities and morally repugnant behavior of the OT god.  And don't even THINK about checking out for yourself any of the supposed "more evidence that Jesus lived than George Washington" or whatever crap they feed sheep nowadays.  If it feels good in your mind, then just go with it. 

Don't believe the infidels here.  Satan must have decieved them all of them into thinking they really loved, worshiped, and followed Jesus all those years just to put a hint of doubt in the real believer's mind- such as yourself.  But don't hang around here too long or you will start to acquire a taste for BBQed babies and having sex with random people/objects/animals/whatever.

 

Oh, you stayed a little too long and I can feeeel another demon entering your body...  Better run while you can!

 

This should be framed

[Kryten]

This should be framed 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heheh.

 

<humbly> Thanks!

[Guest furnifixer]

Y'know, I am getting pretty fed up with this typical Xian cop-out!  You blather on and on ad nauseum about "God's promises" to answer prayers.  About what he WILL do, and CAN do, yadda, yadda, yadda.  "This has been a recording."

 

I never said God would give you everything you asked for, when you asked for it. Didn't. Wouldn't. That's goofy.

 

Do you do that for your kids? "Daddy, I want to ride my tricycle on the highway." Forget it, that's dopey, you're a kid, I'm not going to let you ride your trike on the highway. I love you and you could get really hurt. Cry all you want, kick and scream all you want, I'm NOT giving in on this. Now go do your homework and clean your room.

 

I'm just a little kid. I don't see the big picture. I don't know why it all works the way it does, but I know He's watching out for me and loves me completely. I don't expect you guys to get that. I'm not trying to convince you of anything except that it's real to me. I'm not quoting the Bible, cause I know you hate that. I'm just sharing my own testimony.

 

As for Daniel Ekechukwu, several competent doctors and medical personnel pronounced him dead. Even if he wasn't at the time, he would have been soon from his injuries. He laid on a slab unrefrigerated in a mortuary for almost two days. Of course something supernatural had to happen to his body - he died of chest and head trauma. If somebody is raised from the dead without being healed, they'll just die again. So even if he was in a coma, what happened to the massive chest and head trauma in those two days? What about blood loss? What about being cranked full of embalming fluid? That can't be good.

 

As for the question of why it's not happening here, I have a lot ideas on that. The main thing is that the "church" in this country is so far out of whack and out of divine order. But I think that stuff is going to start happening in a big way here real soon. And there have been times in America where it DID happen like that and newpapers followed people around and verified that stuff. Regrown limbs, paralysis, leprosy, etc. Especially the Great Awakenings in 1850 and 1900 and the healing revivals of 1950. All you have to do is go looking. But if you're convinced that anything that sounds like God might have done it is either exagerated, falsified or mythological - then it probably doesn't make any difference if it happened right in front of you.

 

Doug

[Ouroboros]

I never said God would give you everything you asked for, when you asked for it. Didn't. Wouldn't.  That's goofy.

Actually in a sense you did, because you said you see Gods miracles on a daily basis, and you did reference prayers too. So okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but then we can agree to that I'm not going to see a miracle to show me that God exists.

 

Do you do that for your kids?  "Daddy, I want to ride my tricycle on the highway." Forget it, that's dopey, you're a kid, I'm not going to let you ride your trike on the highway. I love you and you could get really hurt. Cry all you want, kick and scream all you want, I'm NOT giving in on this. Now go do your homework and clean your room. 

That's a bad illustration, since my life was more like:

Girl - "Daddy I'm going to stay in my room in safety"

Dad - "Sure my daughter, stay in your room while I will take the truck and drive it into the house and hurt you badly"

 

I'm just a little kid. I don't see the big picture. I don't know why it all works the way it does, but I know He's watching out for me and loves me completely. I don't expect you guys to get that. I'm not trying to convince you of anything except that it's real to me.  I'm not quoting the Bible, cause I know you hate that. I'm just sharing my own testimony.

Ok. I'll back off. If you're just a little kid, than I know that by time you will learn the truth.

 

As for Daniel Ekechukwu, several competent doctors and medical personnel pronounced him dead. Even if he wasn't at the time, he would have been soon from his injuries. He laid on a slab unrefrigerated in a mortuary for almost two days. Of course something supernatural had to happen to his body - he died of chest and head trauma. If somebody is raised from the dead without being healed, they'll just die again.  So even if he was in a coma, what happened to the massive chest and head trauma in those two days? What about blood loss? What about being cranked full of embalming fluid? That can't be good.

I don't trust "competent" doctors from some foreign place, especially when the claim is extreme. Why you might ask? Because I've seen "miracles" recorded on video, that got everyone so excited and ecstatic for God's miracles, and then later we found out they were hoaxes. So I'm strictly skeptic to miracles, unless I can experience them myself.

 

As for the question of why it's not happening here, I have a lot ideas on that. The main thing is that the "church" in this country is so far out of whack and out of divine order.  But I think that stuff is going to start happening in a big way here real soon.  And there have been times in America where it DID happen like that and newpapers followed people around and verified that stuff. Regrown limbs, paralysis, leprosy, etc.  Especially the Great Awakenings in 1850 and 1900 and the healing revivals of 1950.  All you have to do is go looking. But if you're convinced that anything that sounds like God might have done it is either exagerated, falsified or mythological - then it probably doesn't make any difference if it happened right in front of you. 

So you’re saying that either the skeptical doubt is so strong that miracles can’t happen or that we are blinded so we can’t see they’re happening?

 

First, if my son walks again, I would notice.

 

Secondly, is doubt stronger than faith? Is a mustard seed of doubt stronger than a mountain of faith? It seems to be in this country since America is the number 5 of the most religious Christian western world country in our time. 70% are professing and active Christians, while Africa the percentage is LOWER! There are far more Muslims in Africa than here, so you’re telling me that God works miracles where there are more believing Muslims than Christians? Wouldn’t this prove that Allah is the true God instead?

 

Doug

I appreciate that you hold on and try to argue your point; you might learn something from it.

 

 

Shouldn’t faith be tested to see if it can hold up against trial?

2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?

[Vixentrox]

I suggest you read your bible kid.....the bad parts...then think about how much your god really loves you.

[Mythra]

Somebody asked me to show how God is real in my life. I'm trying to explain that. I talk to Him and He talks back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alrighty then. I guess we pretty much know what we're dealing with here.

[Vixentrox]

Alrighty then.  I guess we pretty much know what we're dealing with here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Raving lunatic...or someone with invisible friends. Either way its a damaging mental condition.

[Guest furnifixer]

Alrighty then.  I guess we pretty much know what we're dealing with here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's right! I'm a kid. I don't understand God fully. I see through a glass darkly. By His grace and mercy, I see less darkly than you, but that's no reason for pride on my part, it was His choice to reveal it to me.

 

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus! I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus. We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world". If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ. They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it. In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all. But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off. Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ! Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1. Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus. There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus". There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next. Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

 

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters. Get a freakin backbone! Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you. Cause all I see is a lot of angry people. If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus. You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith? Let's hear you defend yours. If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country.

 

But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH. (Just a really mean one.)

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

 

And I'm still praying for you, Han.

 

Doug

[scotter]

This is a good one, furnifixer. It is passionate and intimate, also considering you might not have (I am guessing) formal training in ministry and pulpit writing.

 

I may not share same faith like yours, I may not agree with you totally, and some wordings are bound to attract perhaps more reactionary wordings. It is not going to be pretty.

 

Nevertheless, thank you for sharing your thoughts. If I see the conscious pride in SBF, I see in you the humility, I see in you a true man of faith.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus. 

 

Dear Furnfixer, I react to these parts of your posting with the thought that perhaps a lot of us from both "sides of the fence" fear each other's side. I don't think I'm the only person to fear the apparent influence that religious conservatives have in and on government. I think lots of money is raised and political power is organized partly by appeals to Christian fear of hostile, anti-christian conspiracy -- Darwinism, atheists, the gay and lesbian agenda, etc. are some buzzwords one hears. I'm a little surprised to imagine the govt opening up hunting season on Christians, though I used to have that fear myself. These days I'm nervous at imagining government-sponsored groups of Christian moral enforcers going around using violence against atheists/agnostics/gays and lesbians, or whoever. The picture of fundamentalist Muslim moral enforcement squads in Iran is possible to imagine in the USA in another guise.

 

So I may sound paranoid. My question is, how can we as christians, people of other religions, people of no religion, maintain the common ground of the public sphere as safe for all of our "thought-groups"?