Challenge to Christians.

[Guest furnifixer]

Funny, regular people fast all the time for health reasons.  It's obviously something achievable for one with the holy spirit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think you meant "without", right? Otherwise this makes no sense from you. ;-)

 

I'm not saying the fasting is unique or that someone can't do it without God helping -- I'm saying that MY body is not capable. And you wouldn't know that without my medical history, but I'm telling you, people that live and work with me know it's from God. (Ever read "The Heavenly Man" by Hattaway and Yun? Brother Yun is a house church leader from China and fasted 73 days without food or water in prison in China. Documented by the prison doctors and many witnesses. You gotta admit, if that's real, that would pretty much have to be God. Of course, you'll be dissatisfied since Reuters wasn't there with him every moment to verify it. Get the book - even if you think it's fiction, it's really engaging.)

 

Oh, and I'm not loopy or hallucinating and when I stop fasting I'm not going to get any less of whatever it is you think I am. But it's nice that you're concerned. I was just telling the giant bunny here that you weren't ALL mean ogres.

 

This would be so much easier and faster in person! It's a real struggle sometimes to communicate calmness and sanity by text only. I'm sure in person you'd be very impressed with my lucidity.

 

Doug

[Cerise]

Do we have to take your word for it? Because that seems to be all that you have...

 

I just don't think that's enough.

[Ms. K]

Doug,

 

I highly doubt that I would be impressed by your calmness and lucidity in person.

 

So far, you've committed so many logical fallacies in your arguments here, I can only speculate that were I to be attempting to talk to you in person, I'd be shaking my head because of the logical fallacies you're committing.

 

Sharpen your argument skills before you attempt to debate people who are continually pointing out that they don't have to prove a negative.

[Guest furnifixer]

OK, Han, I'll get you references on the martyrdom totals. I'm not making this stuff up. I'll need to load some PDFs and charts up to a site and link to them. Too much info to post here. You can pick all you want at the sources, but this is HISTORY. There WERE 15 million Christians killed in prison camps in Russia between 1921 and 1950. There WERE 14.5 million Orthodox Christians starved in Ukraine in 1929-1937. (Oh, that's by an ATHEISTIC government by the way.)

 

I'll get you a link later tonight.

 

Why am I here? To defend my faith. The problem is my faith isn't what you think it is. You want me to be "go to church on Sunday, be a jerk the rest" Christian or argue with you on whether or not God had bears eat teenager or little kids cause they insulted Elijah. I just don't care about arguing fine points. I think the best way to defend my faith is to show that there is something else out there other than the "Christianity" you've been fighting against and maybe I found a piece of it. For that matter, I'm not sure most of you have ever even MET a real, true Christ-like Christian. Until a few months ago, I can't say that I had met many either (maybe a handful, now looking back). Now I know the difference.

 

Ever wonder why pretty much EVERYBODY hates the Jews? Doesn't that seem odd? Is any people on the earth as consistently despised? Wouldn't you think that by now somebody would have wiped them out? And what crazy confluence of circumstances had to happen for them to get their land back after 2000 years? And if they give pieces back to the Palestinians, would it surprise you if something REALLY bad happened about the same time because God was unhappy? There's a miracle you don't have to wait and wonder for! Sometime in the next few months Israel is going to give the land back to the Palestinians and pretty much right away God's judgement is going to land on anybody that helped or urged them to do it (that's the USA, in case I'm being too subtle). There's even talk that Israel might be pulling all the Israelis out of those areas so that they can wipe out all the Palestinians in one swoop. I could see that happen. They certainly have the military power to do it. Then what would the Arabs do? Not sure how it's going to play out. Gonna be interesting to watch isn't it?

 

Can't you get that there are giant hands tweaking all this stuff? This is not fate or kismet or coincidence. There's a PLAN here! The church is nearly completely APOSTATE -- falling away. Which is exactly what Jesus said would have to happen before the last days. In fact, it's been pretty much a constant since soon after He left, but we've perfected it to an art now.

 

The whole point of this was to show that as long as Man was in charge all we were going to do was make a bigger and bigger mess. There is no hope for us under our own power. Without doing it God's way, we're toast. If you atheists are all optimistic about the future, you need to talk to your environmentalist buddies and get the real scoop on the dead end that's facing humanity - with or without God. There is no utopia coming where we all just get along and there's enough stuff to go around. We're killing each other more efficiently than ever and we're wrecking the planet REALLY fast.

 

Better find a world-view that can account for all that and get you through if it starts hitting the fan.

 

Doug

 

Don't know who this TSM is, but would prefer you didn't ban me. Trying to be civil and understandable. Not trying to get you to think I'm sane - that's a lost cause. But I'm trying to be very polite.

[Vixentrox]

Can't you get that Allah's hands are tweaking stuff?

[dogmatically_challenged]

O.o

 

...what did the other guy bet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He bet that I would lose my cool by baiting me with disingenious tactics in trying to make it seem reasonable to believe in bible god. I lost. He had nothing to lose. Because of my nature I can't relax in my thinking or presentation. I must be in a meditative state to post in the debate forums just to be safe. This avatar is to remind me that I'm not hot stuff.

[LloydDobler]

There WERE 15 million Christians killed in prison camps in Russia between 1921 and 1950.  There WERE 14.5 million Orthodox Christians starved in Ukraine in 1929-1937. (Oh, that's by an ATHEISTIC government by the way.)

 

And yet in the same post....

 

I'm not sure most of you have ever even MET a real, true Christ-like Christian. Until a few months ago, I can't say that I had met many either (maybe a handful, now looking back). Now I know the difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's funny that you'll use the people you declare to be fake christians to bolster your argument. We had an orthodox christian on here recently, I guarantee you would not agree with his doctrine. But again, feel free to disingenuously use him to try and make a point.

 

I'm sure god just was using the atheists to wipe out the fake christians, not the real ones...

 

Oh, and I don't hate the Jews, and neither do most americans. I dont' know what you mean by everyone. The world's mightiest superpower funnels billions in foreign aid to their government. Where's the hate in that?

 

And saying 'something bad is going to happen' is another rumor of war. The bible orders christians to ignore you. I can make the same prediction and tell you that my shoe showed me that 'something really bad is going to happen' 'in the world' in 'this year' and I'll be just as right as you. Will you worship my shoe?

 

Sometime in the next few months Israel is going to give the land back to the Palestinians and pretty much right away God's judgement is going to land on anybody that helped or urged them to do it (that's the USA, in case I'm being too subtle).

 

I'm going to define 'a few months' as 4. Oh hell, make it 5. If this does not happen by the end of 2005, I want you to come back here and eat your words, and confess to being the false prophet you are, and that your faith is dead. Deal?

[Amethyst]

Will you worship my shoe?

 

That depends. Is it made of chocolate?

 

[LloydDobler]

That depends.  Is it made of chocolate?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, my feet get all hot. Can't have a melty god now can we?

 

They're made of dead cow.

[Ouroboros]

Lloyd, very good post, I just wanted to add on...

 

And yet in the same post....

I think it's funny that you'll use the people you declare to be fake christians to bolster your argument.  We had an orthodox christian on here recently, I guarantee you would not agree with his doctrine.  But again, feel free to disingenuously use him to try and make a point.

 

I'm sure god just was using the atheists to wipe out the fake christians, not the real ones...

Thanks for saying that. I was thinking it in the car on the way to work. Then forgot about it. And it's so perfectly true, if most so called Christians are not Real Christians™ then the persecution is not an issue, since most of them are not real anyway.

 

And on another note, the Soviet and the other "Atheist" states, killed a lot of other religious people too, which would prove those religions to be true too.

 

Oh, and I don't hate the Jews, and neither do most americans.  I dont' know what you mean by everyone.  The world's mightiest superpower funnels billions in foreign aid to their government.  Where's the hate in that?

Just look at the discussion we had a week ago, when someone said something slightly anti-jewish on this site, and how most of everyone of the members attacked the poor fellow. A majority here are not antisemites. So maybe most of the antisemites exist in the religious camps?

 

 

And saying 'something bad is going to happen' is another rumor of war.  The bible orders christians to ignore you.  I can make the same prediction and tell you that my shoe showed me that 'something really bad is going to happen' 'in the world' in 'this year' and I'll be just as right as you.  Will you worship my shoe?

Oh Holy Shoe, lead my Sole to green pastures, and let my foot not stumble.

 

Sometime in the next few months Israel is going to give the land back to the Palestinians and pretty much right away God's judgement is going to land on anybody that helped or urged them to do it (that's the USA, in case I'm being too subtle).

 

I'm going to define 'a few months' as 4. Oh hell, make it 5. If this does not happen by the end of 2005, I want you to come back here and eat your words, and confess to being the false prophet you are, and that your faith is dead. Deal?

Right on. I hope he pick up the challenge!

[Mythra]

Paul chastised the Church of Corinth for accepting too quickly "another Jesus":

2 Corinthians 11:4

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doug: don't you find this odd? That people would be preaching a "different Jesus", right after the "real Jesus" died? And, who was this different Jesus?

 

The verses that address those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh were not directed at non-believers. They were addressed to other christians who followed a "different Jesus".

 

Explain this to us, if you can. How does a sect break off, within just a few years, and determine that Jesus never came in the flesh? Seems like an odd thing to have a discrepancy about during a time when there should have been plenty of eyewitnesses to the historical man Jesus.

 

And why did Paul know nothing of Jesus' virgin birth, miracles, or teachings?

 

 

p.s. I know the answer. I'll give it to you if you get stumped.

[-Demona-]

Ok, since I was gone for two weeks, I have to play catch-up. So, first things first, I'm going to respond to Furnfixer's posts. If I repeat what others have said before me, I apologize in advance.

 

Furn's comments are in red.

 

I'm done with religion. I'm done with systems of Man. I'm done with programs and plans and building committees and church growth seminars. I spent too many years in that stuff with someone preaching the "priesthood of the believer" and then setting themselves as priests between me and God. No more!

 

That's something you and I can agree on. I got tired of "Churchianity" sellng me their saviour and left. Then I read the Bible and found it to be a contradictory heap of lies, and that it's only use would be as something to burn to keep you warm on a chilly winter's night when you have no electric or gas, and are running out of firewood.

 

You just gotta take that one more step, man.

 

I just wanted Jesus. I was desperate for more Jesus. I laid everything down and offered my everything to Him - but I HAD to get more than I was getting in "church".

 

Ironically, my story starts out the same way. Fancy that.

 

He always likes when you do that.

 

Uh... now that's just a wee bit creepy. Is Jesus into S&M or something?

 

And then I found Him and He's real. I prayed to see the world through His eyes and I got a big double helping of that and it wrecked me. I used to have a one-sided prayer life, but now I talk to Him all the time and He tells me stuff. You know, that stuff in Acts about miracles and healings and demons is real and it's for today. The gifts it talks about are for us and they're for real.

 

Hearing voices in your head doesn't mean you've had a religious experience. It means you're either skitzo, or a fiction writer. At least the writer knows that she's invented the people talking in her head, though. (And yes, I'm a writer. My mind is a universe of its own.)

 

My church never told me that when I was growing up. I've seen stuff I didn't think possible. I've watched people get healed. My wife was instantly cured of years of dependence on anti-depressants. I've talked to sincere, believable people that travel the world and see things we can't even imagine in the USA. I've met people that are sincere and true and fearless and so full of Jesus that you can see it flying out of them. And hardly any of them are in "church". There's not a single day that goes by now that I don't see God move in some miraculous way.

 

He's real and I've seen Him. And the transformation in my life is evidence of it.

 

Did you get all this on tape?

 

You see, the whole thing is about RELATIONSHIP, not about sitting in a pew or tithing or doing good stuff or avoiding bad stuff. Jesus wants to love us and for us to love Him back - which we do by showing Him that the same stuff that breaks His heart breaks ours too - you know, that stuff about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and caring for orphans and prisoners and widows, that stuff.

 

I see that stuff too, and I know I don't have to be Christian to be a good Samaritan. I have a soft spot for the homeless, the hungry, the destitute... and I do what little I can to make a difference. You don't have to be Christian to be kind to others. Kindness to your fellow man is taught in many non-Christian cultures.

 

I have peace and joy and victory.

 

And I have peace having left Christianity. Your point?

 

If God wants something done, I do it. If it's beyond my means He sends people to help or sends money to pay for it. If we're unsure about something, two or three of us pray and we all hear the same thing.

 

I saw plenty of instances when I was still a Christian where NOTHING happened. I learned that life is a crap-shoot that way, and you have to make your own way and not expect a divine babysitter to take care of you.

 

I know people that can look into your heart and tell you what's hiding in there that you refuse to let go of or what stands between you and God.

 

I know people like that too. These people either majored in psychology or psychiatry, or have a natural gift for interpreting your actions and tone of voice while you're speaking to them. It doesn't mean there's anything divine involved. But it definitely means they're smart people.

 

THAT'S what church is supposed to be! A place you go where folks can help you kill pieces of yourself so Christ in you can live!

 

Why would I want to kill parts of myself? That's like chopping off my right hand because I write with my left hand and am not ambidextrous.

 

You can change parts of yourself. You can minimize weaknesses and emphasize strengths throug the right training, but you'll never be able to eliminate all the not-quite-perfect things about yourself. So why beat yourself up for not being perfect, and not focus on the good in you? It's self-inflicted abuse!

 

I will never again let anything come between me and God. Not religious systems, not pastors, not money, not lust, not suffering, not anything. I would rather die than live a day without hearing His voice. In fact, my prayer is that the VERY SECOND I'm done with whatever He has for me to do, someone would take me out so I can go be with Jesus. Sounds crazy, don't it? Good. Jesus said you would think that.

 

How the hell does Jesus manage to have a personal line to you, yet he never gave a crap about me when I was a good little Christian girl? Either he plays favourites or you're not-quite-sane. My money's on the latter. Please tell me you're seeing a psychiatrist.

 

So folks, what's it going to take? What would PROVE that the God of the Bible was alive and well and wants YOU as His own? Healings? Miracles? Unexplainable answered prayers? Prophecy? Knowledge? People raised from the dead? Amputees regrowing limbs? People paralyzed walking again? Healing AIDS? What is it going to take? Gonna need to see Him yourself? How jaded are you? How desperate to make up an excuse for everything that looks like it might be God?

 

Actually, I'm not all that jaded. I'm young, and I've got my whole life ahead of me. Bitterness hasn't eaten me up like it typically does to those who've seen the worst of life and nothing good.

 

First of all, I would've liked God to answer me any time that I gazed heavenward and cried out for help. The only answer I ever got was silence.

 

But yeah, a little personal prophecy in my life that isn't vague BS and tells me exactly what's going to happen to me wouldn't hurt. Astrology has been far more accurate on that level though. And no, I'm not talking pop-astrology in newspaper columns, but the version where you have to make calculations down to the degree that Jupiter is in Scorpio and what planet it's trined with. It's not flawless and not a hard science, but it has a higher percentile of accurate "guesses" than Biblical prophecy does.

 

I'm not even asking for anything ludicrous or insignificant. Stuff that really matters, stuff that effects me. But yeah, a cure for AIDS and cancer would be nice too.

 

What about all the prophecy in the Old Testament that was already fulfilled, but written hundreds of years earlier? What if all that stuff in Revelation and Ezekiel and Daniel and stuff started happening? Rise of a one-world church, one-world government, revived Roman empire, everybody gets a mark, plagues, stars falling, etc. You know, that stuff where 2/3 of the world dies in just a span of a few years. Wouldn't that be worth something toward thinking there might be something to this? Maybe it'd be nice if you kind of picked a side before all that really hit the fan.

 

But it hasn't happened. None of it has happened. The seas haven't turned to blood and the world hasn't been plunged into perpetual darkness. The only thing that has happened is that Christian believers have an increasing strangehold on the American government.

 

Hey, I grieve at the testimonies I read on here. I was a part of the "religious system" for a long time. And sincerely, with all my heart, I'm sorry for the damage it did to so many. In fact, on this site you probably only see the tiniest little sliver of how much blood is really on our heads for the mess we've made. You're just hearing from the rich Americans with computers, not the BILLIONS that starved to death because we just HAD to have a new gym and a jumbotron.

 

Nevermind the gym and jumbotron. What about the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials? What about the good religious Judeo-Muslim-Christian men in Africa raping little girls because they believe screwing a virgin will prevent them from contracting HIV? Where is your God when those little girls scream in pain and humiliation?

 

Anyway, I've squared all that up with God after much repenting, but I'm telling you publicly - I'm sorry. You're right. This whole organized religion thing is whacked. But you need to understand, we pretty much did all that out of greed and selfishness and power and fear. That's not at all what Jesus wanted. It's not HIS fault we made such a mess. So please don't be mad at Him.

 

Umm... I've got a question for you: how can you be mad as something that you don't believe exists? If that's the case, then I must be pissed off at the Invisible Pink Unicorn too for being invisible yet pink. It's ridiculous.

 

I'm not mad at Biblegod for not existing. I'm pissed off at Christians who try to force their beliefs down my throat and justify the atrocities made in their God's name because "those people who did those bad things weren't Real Christians[tm]".

 

If there really is a battle between Good and Evil - you pretty much gotta hand it to Evil for twisting the "church" up in knots for about two millenia. But there's always been some that didn't fall for the institutional line - and mostly were martyred for it. Probably not by you guys - I expect it to come from the "church". That's what happened to Jesus, too. The prostitutes and tax collectors and fisherman didn't crucify Him - it was the Pharisees.

 

I agree with this.

 

See, I'm saying stuff that's going to get me killed one day.

 

For all you know, we could ALL end up getting killed for what we've been saying here. But us ExChristians will be the first ones to end up martyred, I guarantee it. We pose the biggest threat to Churchianity because we can see through all the bullshit, and that scares people.

 

The thread author asked me about MY faith and I answered.

 

I asked you to defend it and tell me what makes it so much more valid than, oh say... believing in Zues. I didn't ask for anybody to give a testimonial or start preaching. *sigh* Why do you guys keep getting that wrong?

 

I was looking forward to discussions picking apart the miracles in Christianity juxtaposed with miracles occuring in other beliefs and such, and the saviour concept that exists in the majority of mythologies around the world and why Jesus is the pick of the litter.

 

I was looking for a more intellectual discussion and what do I get? "Jesus saved me! He's real because the Bible says so!" I am so disappointed in you people.

 

Would someone please tell me what would definitively prove God to you personally? And if it happened would you really be willing to see it for what it was or rationalize it away?

 

If Biblegod did something to prove his existence to me, I would certainly reconsider my position on believing in him. But I'd probably still think he's an asshole.

 

See my earlier response above for my requests.

 

He's not really on our time-table.

 

Kinda reminds me of an old religious joke. And you can tell it's a joke because God is talking back in the conversation.

 

Christian: "So God, how much is a million dollars worth to you?"

God: "It's only a penny."

Christian: "And how long is a million years?"

God: "It's just a minute to me."

Christian: "Ummm... so can I have a penny?"

God: "In a minute."

 

I know people that tried to commit suicide bunches of times in big dramatic ways and angels kept saving them.

 

True story here. Back when I was 17 years old (still a Christian, incidentally), I decided I wanted to kill myself to stop the pain I felt. Just as I was about to slice open my wrist, I heard (and I'm not joking, either) the voice of Nick Knight from Forever Knight saying in my head "you really don't want to die, do you?" It's a line from the final episode of FK, but my mind replayed it at that key moment. I dropped the knife and thought about how much my mother would be hurt if I decided to off myself.

 

The vampire Nick Knight spoke to me in my head at a key moment. By your logic, that makes him real and not a TV character. So since he's real, I have to accept him as my God because he saved me from myself. Praise be the undead saviour!

 

*prays* O benevolent fanged divinity, I have a sacrifice for you.... a virgin sacrifice.

 

Nick must've seen that because he just told me in my head: "You know, I really could get used to this 'God' thing." *lol*

 

When I go to sleep at night by myself, I feel a pair of arms around me. It must be Nick. He's a good cuddler. Now how's that for a hands-on diety? Maybe next time though, he could give me a kiss too. Lots of 'em, all over. And some nibbling and biting. And maybe, just maybe, um... get all up in my uterus. *cough*

 

"Who's your Deity, baby?"

 

*steers this post back to PG territory before she completely loses the plot from giggling too hard*

 

Too late; I lost it. I'll post a second part to this when I stop giggling.

[-Demona-]

Ok, second part of the post responding to Furnfixer. Again, if I repeat something that was already said, you have my apologies. His comments are in red here too.

 

Is there ANY point in having this conversation at ALL or are you already so hardened that it's pointless? Cause if there is nobody here that is going to change their mind about anything, I hardly see that this is a good use of anyone's time.

 

If you read part one of this response (my previous post), then you'd have figured that out.

 

I don't know what God has planned for you, but since you're still typing, it should be evident to all that you're still breathing and maybe that God might not be done with you yet. I know that you feel your faith was lost, but I guess we really won't know if it was lost for good until you take your last breath. (Which I hope isn't anytime soon.)

 

I'm still typing 'cos I'm still breathing. I'm still breathing 'cos I'm still alive. I've been alive for the past 22 years (Cerise is about the same age as me, BTW). I lived at birth because there were wonderful doctors who worked quickly to keep me alive. Their medical expertise is to be commended.

 

I know a guy that hung himself in prison and was dead for fifteen minutes but survived miraculously by the hand of God. I know people that walked away from devastatingly bad head-on collisions that can only be explained by divine intervention. And these people didn't even know Jesus yet at that point in their life. God had a plan for them, but some suffered many years in the "wilderness" alone and depressed until it was the right time for Him to call them into the battle. Do I understand all the reasons for that? No. But this is a war and sometimes you hide your best weapons until the time is right.

 

I know people who have cancer in remission, and people who died because a tumour developed in their brains. I know people who lived a healthy life after a critical operation, and people who died on the table. If something bad happens that threatens your life, there's a 50 percent chance you'll live and a 50 percent chance you'll die. No divine intervention needed. You just need some surgeons who know what they're doing and a group of medics who'll respond to the emergency quickly to help up the chances of survival.

 

 

The "churches" are not what God designed, they are what WE built.

 

I think I can speak for everybody when I say "No duh!"

 

I think something completely new is coming and it's going to fundamentally change the way we understand and relate to God. And it won't look like "church" as we know it at all.

 

You may be right. Then again, you may be wrong. The future isn't set in stone and the possibilities go 50/50 again here.

 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Jesus is a person who I want to know more about and learn to love more every day. The Bible is one of the ways that I learn more about Him.

 

How do you know the Bible is the way to learn more about him? What about the Gnostic Gospels?

 

But that's about relationship, not about systems and structures and denominations and "organized religion". We have a linguistics problem because you take "religion" to mean faith in a God. I mean it as a man-made system that often confused and befuddles the true point of relationship. The same with "church" - people take that to mean the local congregation and/or it's building, but the true Body of Christ is something that transcends that and can't be contained by Man.

 

You're depending on a book, a religious text that was decided over a millenia and a half ago what should be included and left out by a commitee. It's a religion. Don't kid yourself.

 

Can't help sounding spooky. Evidently, according to some here, I spend a lot of time talking to invisible friends who are entirely made up in my own mind. Pretty much ought to sound spooky, dontcha think?

 

It only gets spooky when you claim they exist outside of your own mind. Now, I know you'll look at the end of my last post and go "but wait, you're talking like this Nick Knight character is real!"

 

No, I made it clear he's a TV character, then I mentioned how my mind recalled the characters utterance from an episode at a critical moment, then I started joking around about him being my deity. He isn't real and I know that. I was lampooning your concept of what Jesus is as, by your own admission, Jesus exists in your head.

 

Like the TV character Nick Knight is with me, you took the character of Jesus and appropriated him for your own use. But while I know that Nick isn't real and only exists on my DVDs, in the fan fiction I read and in my own mind, you so strongly believe that the voice in your head is from divine influences and is not originating from the innards of your own brain.

 

I'm just a businessman saying things people think are weird. I'm not on anybody's payroll. However, as all Christians should be, I am in "service" and we're all supposed to be "ministers" of the Gospel. And the Great Commission says that ALL Christians are to go and heal people and cast out demons in His name and disciple all nations. But I'm not what you'd call "clergy".

 

"Businessman"? What kind of businessman, pray tell? Because, if your posts here are any indication, you're not a good salesman.

 

I know you want this very badly. I believe you would report it honestly. I believe this need you have is higher on your list of priorities than is winning an argument. I don't control God. Nobody does. He has His own plan. But I can intercede for you and we'll see what happens. Maybe at the very least we'll find out what it is and why it is.

 

That's a typical by-rote copout.

 

These ARE my own beliefs. Most of what I've learned about God was shown to me through the Holy Spirit. I had to chuck most of what I learned in "church". I don't owe any MAN for where my understanding has come or for the relationship I have. Again, we have semantics problems. I don't see how I can deny being a "religious" person or a "spiritual" person - or why I would - but that's not the same as being sold out to a SYSTEM instead of a person.

 

If you follow the system's rules (or, in this case, its holy book) you're still part of the system. Like it or not.

 

I believe in something outside myself.

 

So do I. However, I hesitate to refer to this as a God, as the underlying spiritual force in the universe doesn't have to be self-aware or conscious on a human level.

 

Do you follow a book? Which one? Surely something in writing has influenced your thinking? Does that mean you're worshipping the book?

 

I don't follow any one book or writing. I question everything I read.

 

All I can do is pray. I don't know what God intends to do with you or this need. I don't know how long it might take. But I will pray. I've got needs in my own family that aren't answered yet and some that were. God has it under control and whatever He wants to do is fine with me. But if He will truly be glorified and lives can be touched and shown the light of Christ then I will ask for what your family has been praying for. We'll see.

 

Part two of the cop-out post. Yawn.

 

There have been studies that prove that intervention via prayer is no more effective than keeping silent. It's posted in the science vs. religion section of the board somewhere. It shouldn't take that long for you to find that thread and see the statistics for yourself.

 

But I'm NOT going to take up the challenge from Vixentrox because that's just mocking and has the wrong spirit altogether. It seems that the argument is more important than the miracle. But Han, I get this is important to you and would make a big difference. (Hardly the hardest challenge ever. That is the daily effort of getting myself out of the way so Christ in me can increase.)

 

Yeeeah. Ok. "Gee, Jesus will be proud of me and I'll get a heavenly bonus if I pray for this heathen" is basically what I'm hearing here.

 

I don't have to defend MY faith.

 

Then why did you respond to my thread?

 

My personal faith is what it is and it is unshakeable by you or the outcome of this. Again we have semantics problems - I think what you mean is defend your "religion" or defend "God". I don't need to defend God, He is what He is. I'm not defending anything.

 

Again, why are you responding my thread if you have no desire to defend your beliefs? After all, the subtitle of this thread is "Defend your faith!"

 

You said what it would take for you to come back to Christ and mean it. And I assume you were being honest and I assume that you would learn from all the past and if you came back you'd try to find the REAL Jesus and not trust some guy in a suit to tell you what God wants you to do. So I'm not defending anything, I'm just going to intercede that God would show Himself to you in a way you can't deny. I don't know what that will end up looking like. Maybe it won't be what you expect - but I'm praying it's unmistakeable.

 

I tried that prayer when I was still Christian and believed 100%. I never got that "unmistakeable sign". I doubt you'll get one for Hans, either.

 

In the meantime, maybe you guys would like to read about a guy raised from the dead? The guy that wrote the report is a friend of mine and was very thorough in interviewing witnesses and Daniel himself on more than one occasion. Kind of pokes big holes in a lot of peoples "Once Saved, Always Saved" theologies. People are being raised from the dead regularly in third world countries - thousands of them.

 

...Where they don't have as much medical knowledge and are more superstitious. Ignorance breeds religious faith.

 

It's clear that you are one of those that have made up their mind. So I hardly see the point of you debating with me (or me with you). You say He doesn't exist and even if He does He's evil. Not sure what else there is to say. I hope that works for you. Maybe you could tell me how your savior is better? Or is that you?

 

Who says that one needs a saviour to get by on this mudball we call Planet Earth?

 

Yes, I have made up my mind, after 30 years of having it made up for me by the bible, it's a nice change. Debate or not, doesn't matter to me. However, if I see something in your posts that I feel like commenting on, I'll do it. Wouldn't want someone just coming out of the cult getting sucked back in, by false promises and/or the fear of an unexistent hell.

 

Which is why we're here in the first place.

 

I'm sorry. Maybe I misunderstood the point of this thread? Didn't someone on the home page say:

 

"Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind."

 

YOU asked for this. YOU invited me here. Why are YOU on this thread if it is so frustrating to you. That's what this thread is FOR. I'm not bouncing around YOUR board poking at people. I'm on THE thread where I was invited.

 

Thankful didn't ask that. I did. But you're supposed to be defending your faith and giving proof, not appealing to other posters' emotions.

 

Somebody asked me to show how God is real in my life. I'm trying to explain that. I talk to Him and He talks back. I pray for stuff and He answers (one way or the other). I don't even know how to list it all.

 

You're supposed to be telling me why your religion is so much more "speshul" than any other.

 

How about this? I have hypoglycemia. If I miss lunch I get cranky and then dizzy and fall over. The folks at work know to feed me if I get shaky. But in the last six months God as been calling me to fast more and more. I don't DECIDE to fast and most times I don't even know WHY I'm fasting - HE tells me. At first it was just no food. Now it's no food OR water. This month I've been called to fast four times for three days at a time without food or water. In May it was a total of 14 of 31 days. No cravings, no shakiness, no headaches, no problem, feel great, could go for a month if He said wanted me to. Once was eight days, four without food and then four more without even water.

 

I've fasted for health reasons; to remove the toxins from my body. You don't have to be motivated religiously to fast.

 

Does that make me HOLY? No. But it makes me obedient. I'm not taking pride in this - I can't take credit for fasting like that, it's all God. I don't think my mind is sufficient to overcome my biology like that. Maybe once, but not five or six times a month. I mention it because it's miraculous. And it's "more than a slight push that can be mistaken for a strong wind" as the thread requested.

 

It could also be that your body knows what it needs and you've been listening to it, under the assumption that it's God telling you "stop eating at this point".

 

Han, I'm not trying to minimize what God will or will not do. How can I promise what He will do? I can't control Him. That's what the Word of Faith people preach. "If you just believe it strongly enough God will do it for you." That's a flat out lie. You want God to be completely predictable and controllable or he's not God. That's nutty.

 

You're the one hearing voices and claiming it's deity and then you say Han's nuts for making a logical request for proof?!?

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

If he IS God and he's real, then he's way bigger than you or I can understand. You want "make-a-wish" God that always does what you tell him. That'd be handy and there's days I want that too, but it's not realistic.

 

Try again. What was requested is, after so many unanswered prayers that he finally answer one. Just once, and in a way that there's no mistaking that it's God. What's wanted is not a "wish", but clarity.

 

Do I think God's more likely to listen to me than some of those Word of Fatih leaders? Frankly, yeah, I do. I think they're trying to control God and they're in it for the money. They're not under His headship and they're not walking in obedience. Most of them have million dollar homes and shop Rodeo Drive.

 

It's been that way for thousands of years with the people who claim to speak for God. The situation's unlikely to change anytime in my lifetime.

 

Han, what if I'm right? What if God is going to do the miracle you're asking for? Maybe you could spend less effort trying to convince me I'm a nut, just in case. You said if this happens it would pretty much HAVE to be God. It's not just going to accidentally happen and whatever could have been tried by science has probably already been tried. I doubt you're going to be hurt by me falsely getting your hopes up or anything - since you're sure I'm wrong. But you said I (we) should pray, so I'm gonna do that.

 

And what if you're wrong and God sits this one out (like usual)? Are you just gonna say "oops, my bad" and still convince yourself that he's always watching over you and is deeply involved in your life?

 

Been there, done that, found out I was lying to myself.

 

I don't know who else might be out there reading all this, but my email is linked from my profile page if somebody wants to say something without it being out in public where folks may just tell you you're stupid.

 

Way to make assumptions about people.

 

I never said God would give you everything you asked for, when you asked for it. Didn't. Wouldn't. That's goofy.

 

Again. Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

Do you do that for your kids? "Daddy, I want to ride my tricycle on the highway." Forget it, that's dopey, you're a kid, I'm not going to let you ride your trike on the highway. I love you and you could get really hurt. Cry all you want, kick and scream all you want, I'm NOT giving in on this. Now go do your homework and clean your room.

 

Yeah, but we're not children and we're not asking for a tricycle ride on a heavily-trafficked street. Besides, even a parent saying "No" is still a sign that the parent is there and involved in the child's life.

 

If the parent said nothing no matter what the child did, you'd say they're a bad parent, right? Well, God does the same thing. Why let him off the hook? Because he's God?

 

I'm just a little kid. I don't see the big picture. I don't know why it all works the way it does, but I know He's watching out for me and loves me completely. I don't expect you guys to get that.

 

That's all fine and dandy, but the times I needed God desperately, he was an absentee Parent.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything except that it's real to me. I'm not quoting the Bible, cause I know you hate that. I'm just sharing my own testimony.

 

Then you missed the point of my thread.

 

As for Daniel Ekechukwu, several competent doctors and medical personnel pronounced him dead. Even if he wasn't at the time, he would have been soon from his injuries. He laid on a slab unrefrigerated in a mortuary for almost two days. Of course something supernatural had to happen to his body - he died of chest and head trauma. If somebody is raised from the dead without being healed, they'll just die again. So even if he was in a coma, what happened to the massive chest and head trauma in those two days? What about blood loss? What about being cranked full of embalming fluid? That can't be good.

 

....The more I read of this, the more made-up it sounds.

 

As for the question of why it's not happening here, I have a lot ideas on that. The main thing is that the "church" in this country is so far out of whack and out of divine order. But I think that stuff is going to start happening in a big way here real soon. And there have been times in America where it DID happen like that and newpapers followed people around and verified that stuff.

 

Newspapers live for sensationalism, regardless of whether it's true or not. Don't believe me? Just take a glance at a supermarket tabloid.

 

Regrown limbs, paralysis, leprosy, etc. Especially the Great Awakenings in 1850 and 1900 and the healing revivals of 1950. All you have to do is go looking. But if you're convinced that anything that sounds like God might have done it is either exagerated, falsified or mythological - then it probably doesn't make any difference if it happened right in front of you.

 

Again, a lot of those stories have sensationalist elements. Reporters (even good ones) do put some spin on a story to sell copy.

 

That's right! I'm a kid. I don't understand God fully. I see through a glass darkly. By His grace and mercy, I see less darkly than you, but that's no reason for pride on my part, it was His choice to reveal it to me.

 

"I see less darkly than you" isn't prideful? On what planet?

 

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus! I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus.

 

I don't hate you and I'm not persecuting you. I just feel sorry for you.

 

We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world". If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

Don't tell me, their Jesus looks more like a dollar bill? Pfft. I knew that before you mentioned it.

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ. They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it.

 

For what it's worth, I don't condone religious intolerance.

 

In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all. But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off. Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

 

And a lot of them die and are martyred too. Some can't run fast enough and shot down like dogs. The story's the same in every culture. The bigger and more powerful group will always try to stomp out their smaller competitors. Christianity has done this for nearly 2000 years.

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ! Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

 

I can. Chinese Christians are just as hard-nosed as American Christians are and are so certain that they're worshipping the "right Jesus", that they want anyone who doesn't believe like they do to suffer. It's just plain wrong to wish misery on anyone.

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1. Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

Maybe the guards were blinded by sunlight in their eyes. And as for the guy who got the hospital for $1, maybe he's good at fast-talking and haggling too.

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus. There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus". There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

I can agree with this part. They're all made-up.

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next. Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

 

Sounds a lot like the Chick Tract Jesus to me.

 

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters. Get a freakin backbone!

 

Nice of you to make assumptions about us. A lot of us simply don't know whether or not there's anything there. Some of us believe in a force, but don't believe it's a force with an personality (read: a human-like God like Biblegod or Allah). Some of us here are polytheists, some of us believe that a God-like entity created the world but then left it to its own devices, and some of us don't believe in any divine forces at all.

 

We ExC'ers here encompass many beliefs here. It's wrong to assume we're all of anything.

Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you. Cause all I see is a lot of angry people.

 

Then you don't know us as well as you think. I have a very simple and happy life now. I'm just working through a lot of past difficulties and reckoning with myself to enjoy the life I have. Running away into the drug that is Christianity won't slove my problems. It never did.

 

If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

 

My new paradigm is to come to terms with my past, forgive myself and heal. It doesn't happen overnight, and I've got a long way to go still, but I'm a hell of a lot better than the suicidal teen that I used to be. I've completed my education, I have some good friends, the person who abused me no longer lives with me, and my relationship with my mother is getting closer every day.

 

The best part? I made a lot of that happen by a conscious change of direction I made.

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

I wouldn't wish death or pain on anybody. I'm angry at the Church for deceiving me, I'm angry at Christians who have the audacity to assume what I think or what I believe or what I should be doing with me life when I harm no one, but I've never been angry enough to even learn how to fire a gun let alone use it.

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus. You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

 

This is a support group. We were all raped of our innocence and our minds were enslaved. And you have the gall to say we shouldn't be angry? That's like asking a rape victim not to be angry because the guy who did it is an asshole anyway. Part of our healing is releasing our anger in a place where we're comfortable so it troubles us no further.

 

Part of being human is feeling anger and sorrow. If you believe that life is all just a bowl of flowers and sunshine, you're only kidding yourself. We have to work through the anger we feel so we can let it go. This site is here for that very purpose.

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith?

 

Because Christians typically come here expecting to reconvert us, without regard to our own feelings about it. You've disturbed us in our safe house and are basically telling us to go back to our rapist and apologize that we weren't good enough for him, yet you are appalled by the strong responses?

 

Let's hear you defend yours. If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country. But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH. (Just a really mean one.)

 

Actually, I live my life rather quietly, thanks. I don't preach at anyone in my offline life. Nor do I preach online. I just dish out whatever bullshit people decide to hand to me.

 

Point is: This is our safe house, our therapy. If you don't like it, leave. Compris?

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

 

...And you come off sounding like a total insensitive ass and a looney tunes, then have the gall to wonder why you get treated as such.

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

OK, for starters, I'm not a "kid" in the sense that I'm young. That was a statement tied to the previous parenting example in that one post (everyone seems to have missed that nuance entirely). I don't need your sympathy or patronizing because of my chronology.

 

Don't worry; you don't have it. Chronological age is never an issue on these boards.

 

I'm not some green youth that is falling for any old thing.

 

Now that you've riled me up, I can see that as an insult to my age group. I'm 22 with a healthy dose of skepticism and a completed (college level) education. Green I ain't.

 

*takes several deep breaths*

 

Ok, I'm calm again.

 

I have a graduate degree, I have a wife and two kids and own several successful businesses. By all accounts I'm making a difference to the needy in my community, creating good jobs here and supporting micro-lending and human justice projects abroad. I'm even helping save the Amazonian rain forest. I have no history of epilepsy in my family, no blackouts, no addictions, no high doses of medication. Thank you very much for your concern.

 

Congrats on your good life. I'm sure you worked hard to achieve what you did. Some of us should be so lucky.

 

I am not in the "church" system anymore and haven't been for awhile. I'm not receiving propaganda from them because I know they're pretty much all whacked. In fact, most Sundays I go to a different church and have to sit there and pray that God won't strike them with lightning before I leave. But I'm not under any illusion that they're feeding me truth.

 

I stopped going over 2 years ago for that very reason.

 

Occasionally God leads me to the person(s) there that are actually reflecting God and not churchianity - usually only one or two out of a hundred that seem to get it. I never inferred that Christians were the ONLY ones being persecuted in China - just that they WERE being persecuted in China (which is not debateable). If you think that Christians are not being martyred in any sizeable numbers around the world you are VASTLY mistaken. In fact, there have been more Christians killed for their faith in the last hundred years than in ALL centuries since AD 30 combined.

 

People will kill people just because they're assholes, not because of their beliefs.

 

And you think the Catholics in the dark ages killed lots of non-Christians during the crusades? They also killed around 20 MILLION Anabaptists, Waldensians and Mennonites and others who refused to bow to the heirarchy of Rome.

 

Christians kill other sects of Christians, not just non-Christians. We know this.

 

Those were Christians who refused to participate in their heresy and murderous ways. Remember, the winner writes the history books. ROME was the one that said they were "heretics" - all that means is that they didn't agree with Rome. They were people insisting against infant baptism and state-controlled religion and indulgences and purgatory and priestly control of congregations and some other similar perfectly reasonable, totally Biblical, non-heretical things.

 

Again, we know this.

 

By the way, it should be noted (and can't be argued with any historical honesty) that atheists and atheistic governments have slaughtered FAR more people than has the "church". Russian wiped out 35 million in just Ukraine - mostly Orthodox Christians. In the last 100 years there have been at least 35 incidences of mass martyrdoms of over 100,000 Christians (including eight of over 1 Million). Some estimates say that the Marxist/Communist/Atheist governments in the last hundred years have directly led to the deaths of over 1 Billion people.

 

The pendulum swings both ways. Again, we know this.

 

Better be careful before you throw stones.

 

But we're not the ones here insisting that if you don't believe what we believe, you'll end up either 1) dead or 2) in eternal hellfire, either.

 

But before you get all persnickety, the fact is we're ALL stinkers and every system EVER devised by Man results in chaos and death to some degree or another.

 

Again, duh. You don't have to be Christian to get that one. You'll find assholes in all groups of people.

 

That's why God is going to put a stop to it all real soon. You could say that end-times mumbo-jumbo, but even the best population scientists say we have until about 2025 before we can't sustain the population. Environmentalists and oil experts say the growing demand in India and China will crush us. By all accounts we're in deep doo-doo real soon whether or not there is a God. (It's just that the Bible predicted it, that's all.)

 

Or an asteroid will hit us and wipe us out like it did the dinosaurs. Even if nothing happens in my lifetime to wipe out the human population, I'll still end up dead anyway because we all only have so much time to live before our internal clock stops.

 

I'm sorry you think I'm angry - I'm not. I'm sorry you think I'm a stupid shill for the church structures - I'm not. In fact, I fully intend to do everything I can to completely flatten them - and believe that is coming soon.

 

I just hope they show it live on CNN.

[-Demona-]

Ok, last part of my response to Furnfixer. *sigh* Just goes to show that I should be on here everyday to keep up with you folks. But life won't let me.

 

Of course, Furn's comments are in red.

 

Seems nobody seems to get what I'm saying about the multiple Jesus problem.

 

I got it. It isn't that hard to get. But you also worship a different Jesus of your own. What makes you think that's the right Jesus to be worshipping?

 

By the way, with all the charity work that you do, how is it that you have time to post at an ExChristian board?

 

Fair warning, I'm about to quote the Bible.

 

Thanks for the warning. Some people (like YoYo *cough*), use Biblical quotes as their only response.

 

I hope you can skip the attacks on the Bible as "truth" and just accept it at this moment for illustrative purposes only. I'd quote "Walden" for you, but I can't find an applicable passage.

 

All right.

 

Paul chastised the Church of Corinth for accepting too quickly "another Jesus":

 

2 Corinthians 11:4

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

But his concept of Jesus is oppressive to women and condemns gays. So how is that Jesus any better than Chick Tract Jesus?

 

And the Church of Galatia for accepting a "different Gospel":

 

Galatians 1:6-8

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

 

Ok, so the churches are preaching a different gospel. So what's the original gospel that came directly from the mouth of Jesus, or was written by his hand?

 

Pretty much right away there were those who entered and tried to twist and pervert and change things for their own purposes. (I don't want to get into a debate about what you think of Paul or something - that's not the point here.)

 

Don't you think it's odd though, after such a brief time after Jesus' death, people were "perverting" the gospel? They couldn't even keep their stories on his resurrection straight!

 

The point is that it is possible - and should be plainly obvious for all to see that the different denominations are worshipping different versions of Jesus. I NEVER said I had it all perfect and was 100% right. Neither do you - and if you say you do you have a pride problem.

 

Again. Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

Earlier, you said:

 

I see through a glass darkly. By His grace and mercy, I see less darkly than you

 

There's pride in that statement right there, and also the implication that your way is the right way.

 

But BOTH of us are capable of seeing that for there to be this much disagreement in the church (33,000 denominations now!) there HAS TO BE a difference of opinion about who Jesus is.

 

Ummm... yeah. I'm not blind.

 

I have a real simple view. If there is a God and He is in charge, then nothing can stand against Him. But if it's of Man it is going to fail. Since the churches are failing miserably, it must be because they are of Man. That should fit real nicely with the contention of most folks here - that they are man-made constructs and fatally flawed. I'm not arguing that we've built something entirely on our own power and a lot of people have been hurt. In fact, I'm apologizing for it very loudly and publicly and spending my own money to get this out in front of people.

 

Ummm... ok.

 

But what if we peeled back all the crap and find that there was something to all of this?

 

What there is to know exists in the Gospel of Thomas. It's a less watered-down version of Jesus' teachings and it was banned from the bible because.... *gasp!* Jesus actually kissed his girlfriend. You know, his girlfriend being Mary Magdelene. The same woman Christians claim is a whore? Her.

 

That's what I did. And it's about relationship with God, not about structures and systems and programs. Is it possible that you could be thinking you're praying to Jesus, but the picture in your head or the things you have been taught don't really fit Him at all? Sure.

 

Or you could be praying to a different diety entirely without even realizing it.

 

So if you put God in a box and you just pull Him out when there is a problem you need fixed or you want to be blessed and you don't get an answer, maybe it's because you made an idol and you're not praying to God at all. It's clear in the Bible (and in my personal experience and that of thousands of others) that God talks to people. So if you don't hear the voice of God answer you, maybe you're not praying to God at all. Maybe you made up something in your head you think is God, but it might as well be a wooden tiki for all the good it's doing you.

 

Same could be said for you, that you've just hyponized yourself into believing in a version of Jesus that doesn't exist and that that belief is so fervent you'll grasp at straws to prove it.

 

My contention is simple. Christians are supposed to be ONE BODY. Since we're clearly not acting like it, somebody is worshipping wooden gods or just not obeying - those are the only two choices.

 

Or maybe the Christian/Biblegod doesn't really exist and we all should be worshipping Zeus. Or Osiris. Or Astarte.

 

I think in America, that's going to turn out to be pretty much just about everybody. All the churches are elevating one person up front who is supposed to be the one that hears from God and he/she tells you what to believe. That's "nicolaitan" (in place of laity) and pretty much not what God wanted us to be doing. This is a ONE-on-ONE relationship. I don't get to default to what someone else tells me. I don't get to give my money to someone else so THEY will take care of the poor and I don't have to get my hands dirty.

 

Good for you then. But again, that's why I walked away from the church myself when I was still Christian. If I'm going to believe, it's going to be between me and the "Big Guy". No middleman.

 

We're really not so different, you and I.

 

Now, I get that most of you think I'M also worshipping a wooden god. That's fine. Think what you want. He's real to me and He's proven Himself over and over. And I will most definitely NOT be back here in a year (or more) admitting I was all wrong and I was deluded. Nobody had anything to say about the fasting, eh?

 

I just did. But I came in late. So sue me.

 

Tomorrow is day 4 without food or water. That's just God. My body is physically, chemically, medically incapable of that. I'm taking any pride in it, I'm just pointing out that that is one way that God is real to me. (Of course, I could be making it up - but then you could be lying about being an atheist, too (or agnostic/deist/pagan/druid/trekkie/whatever you are).

 

Heh. Good luck with that.

 

Frankly, I'm not really here to convince any of you to un-un-convert. I acknowledge that you've been hurt really badly and think it's all a crock. I think it's mostly a crock, too - but not ALL of it. Somewhere under all the pink, fluffy layers of ear-tickling crap there is a kernel of truth. And I think something is coming that is going to expose all of the "system" for what it is.

 

I'm willing to agree with that. The kernel of truth, in my case being Jesus' basic teachings. Everything else is just... stuff.

 

Beyond the fact that the Bible predicts that will happen, I see it beginning. And Han, the Bible says the steps of a righteous man are ordered before him - so when you die to self and it's Christ in you that lives, you give up free will. Go read about Paul, nobody ever asked him if he wanted to go preach the Gospel. Jesus chose him.

 

Yet, he wasn't all that well-versed in Jesus' teachings himself. Hmmm... makes one wonder, huh?

 

If you're ordering your own steps, either it's an illusion that you think you're actually in control - or you never really died to self and let God take control.

 

....

 

I can agree with that in this sense: we're all animals underneath. Believing we're "civilized" is an illusion. We have baser needs and instincts. We're not evolved from monkeys, we are monkeys. Smart monkeys, but still monkeys.

 

 

OK, Han, I'll get you references on the martyrdom totals. I'm not making this stuff up. I'll need to load some PDFs and charts up to a site and link to them. Too much info to post here. You can pick all you want at the sources, but this is HISTORY. There WERE 15 million Christians killed in prison camps in Russia between 1921 and 1950. There WERE 14.5 million Orthodox Christians starved in Ukraine in 1929-1937. (Oh, that's by an ATHEISTIC government by the way.)

 

So? Governements are always corrupt on some level no matter who's running them.

 

Why am I here? To defend my faith.

 

Yet, earlier you said:

 

I'm just sharing my own testimony.

 

You also whined:

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith?

 

Tell me you've made up your mind now.

 

The problem is my faith isn't what you think it is. You want me to be "go to church on Sunday, be a jerk the rest" Christian or argue with you on whether or not God had bears eat teenager or little kids cause they insulted Elijah. I just don't care about arguing fine points. I think the best way to defend my faith is to show that there is something else out there other than the "Christianity" you've been fighting against and maybe I found a piece of it. For that matter, I'm not sure most of you have ever even MET a real, true Christ-like Christian. Until a few months ago, I can't say that I had met many either (maybe a handful, now looking back). Now I know the difference.

 

Let's see. Hmmm.... Well, my mom's Christian. She spends all of what little free time she has doing volunteer work in the communitee. She's studying for the pastorate too. She loves God with all her heart, all her strength and all her mind. She wants to devote her life to giving the word of God through music.

 

She's also the sweetest and gentlest little lady you'll ever come across. It breaks my heart when she cries. Is she a real Christian? Well, it's said "you will know them by their fruits". So yep. She's a True Christian[tm].

 

Ever wonder why pretty much EVERYBODY hates the Jews? Doesn't that seem odd? Is any people on the earth as consistently despised? Wouldn't you think that by now somebody would have wiped them out? And what crazy confluence of circumstances had to happen for them to get their land back after 2000 years? And if they give pieces back to the Palestinians, would it surprise you if something REALLY bad happened about the same time because God was unhappy? There's a miracle you don't have to wait and wonder for! Sometime in the next few months Israel is going to give the land back to the Palestinians and pretty much right away God's judgement is going to land on anybody that helped or urged them to do it (that's the USA, in case I'm being too subtle). There's even talk that Israel might be pulling all the Israelis out of those areas so that they can wipe out all the Palestinians in one swoop. I could see that happen. They certainly have the military power to do it. Then what would the Arabs do? Not sure how it's going to play out. Gonna be interesting to watch isn't it?

 

I think parts of this was discussed in a "Rants" thread. I'm not touching the story about the Jews with a 10ft pole because it's a touchy subject.

 

Can't you get that there are giant hands tweaking all this stuff? This is not fate or kismet or coincidence. There's a PLAN here! The church is nearly completely APOSTATE -- falling away. Which is exactly what Jesus said would have to happen before the last days. In fact, it's been pretty much a constant since soon after He left, but we've perfected it to an art now.

 

Apostate from what?

 

The whole point of this was to show that as long as Man was in charge all we were going to do was make a bigger and bigger mess. There is no hope for us under our own power. Without doing it God's way, we're toast. If you atheists are all optimistic about the future, you need to talk to your environmentalist buddies and get the real scoop on the dead end that's facing humanity - with or without God. There is no utopia coming where we all just get along and there's enough stuff to go around. We're killing each other more efficiently than ever and we're wrecking the planet REALLY fast.

 

I don't have that hope. We've screwed things up enough as it is.

 

Better find a world-view that can account for all that and get you through if it starts hitting the fan.

 

Like a divine life insurance policy? Yeeah.

 

Would prefer you didn't ban me.

 

That hardly, if ever, happens around here.

 

Trying to be civil and understandable. Not trying to get you to think I'm sane - that's a lost cause. But I'm trying to be very polite.

 

Thanks for trying, then.

[Cynical Realist]

"Paul chastised the Church of Corinth for accepting too quickly "another Jesus":

 

 

 

I saw the other Jesus walk down my street.

 

I'm sure this will be lost on most. Any Swervedriver fans in here?

[Ouroboros]

Oh! Oh!  Can I guess?  Paul is the one I believed to be teaching the "different" Jesus.  He wanted "his" version as the one accepted, not the Jesus as taught in the gospels who didn't come to abolish the law.  Nor like the one taught by James, Peter, John (or whoever the heck wrote those "other" epistles.)  Paul doesn't get down on obedience like those "others", like those "super apostles".  Isn't that how Paul describes the 12?

I agree. The 12 were probably the leaders of a Gnostic/Mysticism cult, and Paul came and had his visions of a "real" and physical Jesus instead of the Mythos Jesus the others were teaching.

[-Demona-]

Ok, now I'm going for Tom's posts. His comments will be in blue. Blue's a pretty colour, and this way Tom's comments won't be confused with Furnifixer's.

 

Sorry about the big copy of the quote. Like I said I am new to this and must have misfired.

 

No worries. It's all good.

 

I thought I could hear the chorus crying "fresh meat, fresh meat" when I sent my post.

 

Ummm... nope. That wasn't the purpose of this thread.

 

Well so far I am disappointed in these posts. I heard a cry for a discussion and so far it has just been emotional and unsubstantiated attacks at my veracity. And also, I apologize for my spelling. I did not know that you got extra points for spelling. I sure hope you have some mercy left over in case you run into someone who is dyslexic.

 

I'm sorry to hear you got chewed out for some mispellings.

 

Anyway I have been asked for a defense of my beliefs and to have a defense there must be an offensive. So far, I feel like Dorothy being confronted by the Cowardly Lion. All bluster.

 

So this is your opportunity to devour another of us poor lambs. I only ask this that in every discussion we all seeking truth. Personal attacks make one seem small and trivial. I will come to these discussions openly and respecting your views. Can you do the same?

 

I don't go on the offensive unless somebody says something to raise my hackles. Honestly, for the most part I'm a pussy cat.

 

Let the game begin!

 

Your move first, big guy.

 

I am sorry for your pain. I thought someone was asking me to explain why I belive in God. To present a more balanced picture, I have prayed for many people who have not been healed. I have soon good sweet people trusting Jesus through excruciating pain until they died of cancer.

 

The question in this thread is basically: why Biblegod? Why not any of a dozen other belief systems?

 

I do not understand your comment about having anxiety about pleasing God. How can you be ansious about pleasing someone who loves you? When someone loves you there is not earning of relationship. The relationship is. It is because of the love.

 

The problem is Biblegod's love is conditional. Per the Bible, as long as you do everything he says perfectly and don't piss him off, you're in like Flynn.

 

If I were to say I love you, would that be conditional? If I love you and you did something evil would I stop loving you? That is not love and not the relationship that God offers (at least the way I read the Bible)

 

Then you haven't read it as well as you think you have.

 

Also sorry about the spelling. Would you judge me on that basis. Not thinking that perhaps I had to go to work and did not look for errors. I am new to this and usually don't 'do' this type of site. But I am very interested in the challenge to defend my beliefs.

 

Typos don't concern me. What matters is the clarity of your ideas.

 

My first thought is, why do you want me to defend my beliefs. My beliefs are my beliefs and it can not be assailed nor can it be truly defended because it comes down to a personal choice based upon motives and incidents peculiar to my life.

 

You are right, in that respect. However, your beliefs are part of a religion. And I want to know why this religion compares to others. Have you researched other beliefs before you decided? What is it about Christianity that makes it so special?

 

Do you wish to attack my choice. I think you are too liberal to try to convince me I don't have a right to choose.

 

No, I won't attack you. I don't have anything against you. I just don't agree with the religion you follow.

 

Besides, If you really cared for an intellectual discussion of my beliefs you can get that for $20 in Barnes and Nobel. My case is well presented in numerous books available in any bookstore.

 

But I want to hear it from you. What makes Christianity so special to you, above all others?

 

Perhaps You might care to hear a few of the incidents that have persuaded me that God is real and his Son died for us all.

 

*sigh* Do I have a choice?

 

I had checked out many spiritual trips in college. This was the late 60's. I read about Buddah,, TM, Dianetics, Hinuisim(?). I had read the mystics from Nostradamus to Edgar Cayce, to Jean Dixon. I decided that is was all stupid and ddecided to lay it down. I was proud that the only time I went to church was when Jack Kennedy was shot.

 

Ok...

 

I had been married for 3.5 years and was basicly a beer drinking guy who played ball 6 or 7 days a week. Some Sunday nights were free,, so I did the 'right' thing and tried to be a good husband by taking my wife to church. There some weird lady came up to me and said something like, "Don't you just love the Lord." I really embarressed my wife by letting her know what a fruitcake she was. The next week the same lady did the same thing. My wife, trying to keep things cool, interjected that i was grumpy because of chronic back pain. The lady said 'God doesn't want you in pain and He is going to heal you now." Before I knew what was happening this lady started to pray and in 2 minutes my back was completely fine and had not bothered me for 30 years.

 

...

 

Miracle healings. Gotta love 'em. They only have a snowball's chance in hell of working.

 

After 3 more years of careful examination I accepted Jesus as Lord and since then He has proved Himself real over and over again. I don't know if you really care, but I have personally seen him perform miraculous instant healings of many problems. I have personally felt broken bones come back together while I held a finger and the pain immediately stop. I have a border who was a 30 year crack addict and 10 years homeless who was immediately delivered of his addiction - 6 years ago.

 

More miracle healings. Bah.

 

I have freinds who were on the verge of very angry divorce who are Joyfully together today. Last Saturday I went to the heterosexual wedding of a very close former lesbian. I have several friends who have been delivered from the homosexual lifestyle. Over and over many times, Jesus has proved Himself over and over and over again.

 

I'm willing to bet my last dollar that those homosexuals who have been "delivered" are really secretly miserable at denying their nature.

 

I am no pastor, preacher. just a cube living computer guy. But to me, the miraculous events of a loving God are a weekly/monthly event. Not to mention the joy an dcontentment of my day to day life. But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not. You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him.

 

....

 

I accepted Jesus when I was a small child. It wasn't until I was in my teens that I began to question things. Neither Jesus nor his Big Daddy saved me from the misery I endured as a child. But I believed. Wholeheartedly, even when I rejected the church. Then I began to have my doubts, I still so desperately clung to my beliefs. They slipped away from me when I discovered what a lie it had all been.

 

But, according to you, I never knew him. I honestly thought I did. About three years ago, I would have told you how much I loved Jesus. Even when I first started at this board just a few months ago, I still clung to faith in a loving fatherly God. I realized that it was my own need for a father figure that was causing me to hold on, not that God had been a Father to me.

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name. I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos. For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness. Oh yeah, that weird lady who prayed for me is a great friend of mine now.

 

It isn't just the people in the church. It's the doctrine too.

 

Re-reading what I wrote. I have to agree with you. I often say things as if they are facts when really it is just thoughts that I have. The definitive statements that I made are out of line and I apologize. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

Thanks for the kind response. As to your last comment, I have been well reprimanded for my leap to judgement. I'm sorry for lumping everyone into a presumptive basket of mine.

 

Ummm.... ok. That was for the "you never knew Him" comment, right?

 

The way I see some of the issues that you raise may be different from most. The concept of my choices pleasing God is not one that I deal with. It does come back to the unconditional love thing. He loves me, not my choices. As long as I have the desire to be honest and open before Him, He will lead me into the choices that are to be made. And if I make a wrong choice, He still accepts me and deals with me.

 

According to the Bible, he will punish you severely if you make a mistake.

 

You have children that you obviously love. If one of them has the attitude that they want to please you in their decisions. And they make the best decision they can. What is your response to them? Do you punish them? Make their life harder? I think the Father is the best Father and much better than I.

 

If Biblegod is the best there is, I'd rather be an orphan.

 

Yes troubles will come our way, but we do not cause them to come because of displeasing God. Jesus said that in this world we will have tribulation. It is not the perfect world that He desires. It is the product of sin. And terrible things happen to very good people.

 

But where's the justice in that? Where's God when wrong is being done? He was hands on in Biblical times, but he's aloof and silent now. Why?

 

I would think that a person who writes with the grace and compassion for other people that you do, knows what Godly decisions are. And my feeling is that you have a very high batting average with God. Not to say you haven't made a few collosal blunders like all of us.

 

Naturally.

 

I don't know if God's healing is random or based on chance. I think God has a plan it is not based on chance. I have had several physical problems that were healed by conventional surgery. One situation could only be fixed by one man, Dr. George Webster at the Duke Medial Center. Why didn't God heal me miraculously? No idea. But that doesn't mean He doesn't love me or you or anyone.

 

If he loves me, he has a lousy way of showing it. Not once in my life has he ever done anything when I needed him, when I cried out to him from the depths of despair. It was myself who pulled me up by my bootstraps time and time again. It was myself who tried to change a bad situation to a better one. Not once did God tell me anything. Not once did his divine hand guide me. I stumbled along by myself.

 

Oh yeah, I am not in the ministry because God has not lead me that way. All though I would love to be and am very frustrated when I would rather be elsewhere. But also being in the work world gives me opportunities that ministers don't get. For example, a few years ago I walked by the office of a friend on mine named John. John had been traveling and I did not think he was due back. He looked miserable. I went in and asked him how he was doing. He said not good. While in Toledo he went to the men's room and passed urine the consistency and color of apple cider. Then every time after he passed blood red. He was waiting to go to the doctor's in a few minutes. We prayed, John never passed any funky urine again. The doctor ran a complete series of test including cathaterizing(?) him. (Ouch!) He found no problems. Coincidence, anomoly(?) or God. We will never know. But I got a thrill that I would not have gotten in some stuffy church office all alone.

 

Most likely an anomaly induced by stress. Perhaps he had eaten something he shouldn't have after that bathroom visit and it screwed with his innards. Or maybe he was taking a medication at the time that had such a side effect.

 

Is experience Truth? I have never been to the moon. Therefore the truth must be that men don't go to the moon. This example may be extreme but I think it supports my question.

 

Oddly enough, there are people who believe the moon expedition was staged.

 

If we believe that we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. then what comes first, truth or freedom. truth must. If I limit my truth to my experience then i will never change, grow, or experience newness or be free.

 

Ah, but we all experience different things in our lives. Sometimes, experience takes us down a different path than the one we were following.

 

I like having my mind free, and not chained down to a doctrine.

 

Just a little clarification here. The word sin is an old english term from archery and it does mean (to the old english) that one has not struck the target. The greek work 'harmatia' which is translated sin also means to miss the mark. so you can see why the King James guys translated the word 'hamartia' to sin and how it entered our lexicon.

 

Can you point out a reference for me, so I can see this for myself?

[-Demona-]

(YoYo)

A crapload of Bible verses.

 

Could you say it in your own words, please? If I wanted selected readings from the Good News Bible, I would've taken out my own copy from the box it's in a flipped through it myself.

 

Use the brain you were born with in debate. Ok, love?

[Vixentrox]

(YoYo)

A crapload of Bible verses.

 

Could you say it in your own words, please? If I wanted selected readings from the Good News Bible, I would've taken out my own copy from the box it's in a flipped through it myself.

 

Use the brain you were born with in debate. Ok, love?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny how they use that discredits rag to justify any thing and everything. Then they devlope amnesia over the icky parts and or try to makes excuses for thier monster god.

[mwc]

Why am I here? To defend my faith. The problem is my faith isn't what you think it is.  You want me to be "go to church on Sunday, be a jerk the rest" Christian or argue with you on whether or not God had bears eat teenager or little kids cause they insulted Elijah. I just don't care about arguing fine points. I think the best way to defend my faith is to show that there is something else out there other than the "Christianity" you've been fighting against and maybe I found a piece of it.  For that matter, I'm not sure most of you have ever even MET a real, true Christ-like Christian. Until a few months ago, I can't say that I had met many either (maybe a handful, now looking back). Now I know the difference.

 

I'm sorry for butting in but I just couldn't take this any longer. I'm pretty sure I know Doug (and his pals) from interfereing in my own life. I could be wrong but he smacks of Fellowship of the Martrys (aka The Church of Liberty) teachings. Am I right Doug?

 

If so, then I really appreciate you and yours "defending your faith" by praying for my unborn (first) child. It's now dead. Praise Yah! My wife has went through hell over this (me too but I can only imagine what she's endured). This would be the same woman that you and yours "defended your faith" by convincing that I was going to kill her (and the baby) and that I was possessed by Satan (or maybe just a lowly demon). You told her to leave me...and she did. I needed to learn the lesson of the prodigal son and eat with the pigs. (I won't go on. I posted quotes from real emails to/from my wife in another thread). This is what *TRUE* Christianity is all about. Doug, *YOU* are the Christianity I fell away from. *YOU* are the Christianity that embodies all the worst of what Christianity has to offer under the guise of love and Jesus. I thought much like you did once (at least 20 years). I judged complete strangers (without actually judging the person of course...hate the sin not the sinner...not that humans can actually separate these two things). These recent experiences were the last nail in my Christian coffin. Did you "defend your faith?" You bet you did. You defended it from someone who so badly wanted to keep his belief in the Christian God it mentally and physically hurt to face the truth. Is there a God? Maybe. Is it the Christian God? NO.

 

My wife has since returned home. We are in counseling. Our relationship is rocky but improving. She's still very much Christian. Good for her. She just can't be a *TRUE* Christian ala Doug if things are to work out (her silent judgement is painfully obvious and affects her attitude towards me and vice-versa...I'm especially touchy about the whole "God" thing right now). Is this God's will? Let's see. Take one great marriage. Add (Doug's) God and some *TRUE* Christians. Mix. Get one dead baby and one tenuous relationship. Yep. Sounds like the Biblical God to me. Praise Yah!

 

Again, to everyone else, I'm sorry for butting in with my own personal rant. I just couldn't keep reading this guy trying to come off as 'loving' and 'caring' when I strongly believe that he's associated (if not one of) the people that has helped make my life worse (meaning an absolute miserable hell) in recent weeks. If I am wrong about Doug's association then I apologize to Doug. I still stand by my assessment of Doug's belief system however.

 

mwc

[Guest furnifixer]

I'm sorry for butting in but I just couldn't take this any longer.  I'm pretty sure I know Doug (and his pals) from interfereing in my own life.  I could be wrong but he smacks of Fellowship of the Martrys (aka The Church of Liberty) teachings.  Am I right Doug?

 

      My wife has since returned home.  We are in counseling.  Our relationship is rocky but improving.  She's still very much Christian.  Good for her.  She just can't be a *TRUE* Christian ala Doug if things are to work out (her silent judgement is painfully obvious and affects her attitude towards me and vice-versa...I'm especially touchy about the whole "God" thing right now).  Is this God's will?  Let's see.  Take one great marriage.  Add (Doug's) God and some *TRUE* Christians.  Mix.  Get one dead baby and one tenuous relationship.  Yep.  Sounds like the Biblical God to me.  Praise Yah!

 

    Again, to everyone else, I'm sorry for butting in with my own personal rant.  I just couldn't keep reading this guy trying to come off as 'loving' and 'caring' when I strongly believe that he's associated (if not one of) the people that has helped make my life worse (meaning an absolute miserable hell) in recent weeks.  If I am wrong about Doug's association then I apologize to Doug.  I still stand by my assessment of Doug's belief system however.

 

          mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

MWC,

I'm sorry for your loss. I wasn't in contact with your wife nor was I one of the folks talking with her. (For that matter, the folks that were talking with her aren't talking on our public discussion board anymore either.) She has sent me an email regarding your post on this board, but otherwise I've had no contact with her. I'm sorry about the loss of your baby ( /babies, not exactly clear on that).

 

In case other folks are interested, mwc is referring to his thread here - http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2590&hl= . This is the thread in which he admits to having beat up a door and bashed her computer to bits - after he spied on her private emails. That is, he blames other people for the fact that his pregnant wife felt in danger of a man who acted out violently and distrustfully. Whether you believe in demons or not is irrelevant, it is clear that this was a highly troubled marriage before his wife ever came across our website. It should also be clear that giving marital advice in as volatile a situation as this is highly dangerous.

 

We are not a cult, we are not even an organization. There is no building, no budget, no meetings, no staff, no recruiting, nothing like that. It's just a statement that the Body of Christ ought to start acting like Christ. There is a discussion board there and some folks that are sympathetic gather to discuss and support each other. Sometimes those folks carry on conversations off-line. Even if I cared to, there's no way to police or monitor that.

 

I suspect that any women's shelter or social worker on the planet would have given her similar advice given the situation. Probably with less talk about God and demons - but certainly to be very cautious and to keep options open and to get away if violence erupts.

 

I'm sorry for your loss and for the situation you find yourself in. Blame others if you wish, blame God if you wish, blame your wife if you wish - but I don't think that will make the situation any better.

 

As for EternalDarkness' comments, I'll have to get to that later. I really haven't had time to get back on here.

 

Doug

[-Demona-]

As for EternalDarkness' comments, I'll have to get to that later. I really haven't had time to get back on here.

Take your time, Doug. I'm in no rush.

[mwc]

MWC,

I'm sorry for your loss. I wasn't in contact with your wife nor was I one of the folks talking with her. (For that matter, the folks that were talking with her aren't talking on our public discussion board anymore either.)  She has sent me an email regarding your post on this board, but otherwise I've had no contact with her. I'm sorry about the loss of your baby ( /babies, not exactly clear on that). 

 

Then I apologized in advance for that. In case you missed it I'll do it again. I'm sorry for lumping you in with those that were directly involving themselves in my affairs as you clearly were not.

 

I had typed up a nice long response to everything else you said regarding my situation. I decded that this thread is not the place for it so, unless someone really wants to see it, I'm not going to talk about it specifically here.

 

We are not a cult, we are not even an organization. There is no building, no budget, no meetings, no staff, no recruiting, nothing like that. It's just a statement that the Body of Christ ought to start acting like Christ. There is a discussion board there and some folks that are sympathetic gather to discuss and support each other. Sometimes those folks carry on conversations off-line. Even if I cared to, there's no way to police or monitor that.

 

But there is a way to monitor it all. God. He speaks to you through the spirit. He can let you know if one, or more, are going astray. I find it odd that all Christians get filled with the exact same spirit and yet they all seem to get different messages. I would think that God could control that a little better and send a unified message to everyone. I'll know them by their works. I can spot a true Christian everytime.

 

I suspect that any women's shelter or social worker on the planet would have given her similar advice given the situation. Probably with less talk about God and demons - but certainly to be very cautious and to keep options open and to get away if violence erupts.

 

I'm sorry for your loss and for the situation you find yourself in.  Blame others if you wish, blame God if you wish, blame your wife if you wish - but I don't think that will make the situation any better. 

 

I shouldn't respond to this but I will (and unless something insightful is said in response I won't address it anymore). My wife was free to call shelters and/or the police or anyone else for that matter. It turns out she did call shelters (God told her to). They pretty much told her they weren't interested. The cops never came by as they weren't called (I know I'd call them if I were in danger). She goes to work everyday so it's not like she couldn't have done it when there was absolutely no (perceived) danger. My posts in the other thread do not omit my errors. They're there for all to see. I do not simply blame others and absolve myself as you'd like to present. I do blame others for getting involved where they did not belong and escalating a situation by manipulating a new Christian using fear and telling her that lies are okay since it can all be forgiven. If these people are truly filled with the spirit then the advice should have actually reflected the real situation as that is perhaps the lies and deceit should stop.

 

mwc

[Guest furnifixer]

But there is a way to monitor it all. God. He speaks to you through the spirit. He can let you know if one, or more, are going astray. I find it odd that all Christians get filled with the exact same spirit and yet they all seem to get different messages. I would think that God could control that a little better and send a unified message to everyone. I'll know them by their works. I can spot a true Christian everytime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a hard thing to remove ourselves from every equation! Certainly the highest mountain we'll ever climb! There is ONE Spirit of God, but so often it has to be filtered through all of our own baggage. God does send one message, but then we often "tweak" in the direction that fits us best. It's not His goal to "control" as much as to see how well we're willing to listen and obey.

 

I was aware that discussion was going on with someone who was having serious problems with her husband. That's about it. I got bits of information later and did spend time praying for Denise's healing and that she have wisdom about handling the situation. Certainly that would continue to be my prayer for the both of you. But it's not up to me to "monitor" anyone. God will handle them if they are out of step with Him or getting over their head into something they're not prepared to handle (or shouldn't be in the middle of).

 

I'm not taking a stand one way or the other one whether or not they should have been involved. Denise sought them out and they tried to be encouraging and loving as they felt led. You DO have serious issues that require attention before there can be healing in this relationship. Whether you attack that chemically, psychologically or spiritually is up to you. Of course, my belief is that true peace is found only in complete surrender to Jesus Christ and the victory then comes over the forces seeking our destruction. (But that's just me.)

 

MWC, I sincerely want your marriage strong and healthy. I pray comfort and peace for you both. Maybe this hard time will be the catalyst that will lead to that. Whether you buy all the stuff in the Bible or not, if you will treat her with unconditional love and respect and utter self-sacrifice, it's highly likely you'll see great improvements in the relationship.

 

Sorry to interupt the thread with this stuff, folks. You can go back to writing REALLY long posts and misunderstanding me now. ;-)

 

Doug

[Cerise]

What's to misunderstand, Doug?

 

You think you have the one true path and wish to impose it upon all of us at any opportunity. We resist your prodding, you find it both frustrating and mildly offensive, we find your prodding both frustrating and mildly offensive, we all move on with our lives.

 

What's to misunderstand? It's the oldest dance in the world.