Challenge to Christians.

[Guest Clandestiny]

Wow, the picking and choosing is neverending. Reread Exodus and your bible. God HARDENED Pharoahs heart, then read Paul, where God "raised up Pharoah for the purpose of showing his "glory." Then shoot on over to Deuteronomy where the righteous Moses is upset with Joseph for keeping his captives alives; Moses instructions KILL ALL the women who have known men and the BOYS and keep the WOMEN CHILDREN for yourselves. Don't forget where God sends 2 she bears to maul 42 children to death for calling Elijah "Bald head".

 

You’re right, the picking and choosing is never ending. Exodus 7:13 “Yet Pharoah’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.” And Exodus 8:15 “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.” Scripture indicates that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and either God hardened his heart further, or whatever. You said read Paul, I imagine you were thinking Romans knowing it was written by Paul, and referring to 9:17, “For the scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth”. (Exodus 9:16 says pretty much the same thing). I skimmed through Deutronomy and couldn’t find Moses instructions to kill the women who’ve known men, etc: where is it? Ah, I remember learning about the bears mauling the 42 kids. Basically, it was more of a poor wording in terms of translation. Kids is a misleading term, basically it’d be the equivalent of a high school gang. “Bald head” was a HUGE insult at the time, and Elijah was genuinely threatened. It’s not a bunch of 8 year olds throwing pointless insults; it’s a gang threatening Elijah.

 

1) No, it was not for the "times", puleeze. If God had it his way, women over here would be dressed like those in Afghanistan and you'd be flying planes into buildings, for the glory of god. Again, READ YOUR BIBLE. History books didn't make the LAWS THAT MADE WOMEN PROPERTY, you're evil biblegod's "holy" book does.

 

When I say “for the times” I mean, that’s the way that it was. Just because it happened doesn’t mean God likes it or wanted it to happen. Actually, if God had his way we never would have sinned in the first place. You’re right, history books don’t make the laws that made women property, but where does the Bible say “Women are property”? Honestly, if it does I’d love to research it, you certainly don’t seem willing to.

 

That's your myth and your belief, not that of everyone here or of other beliefs. You need to accept Allah or burn in hell.

 

Just because you don’t believe it, doesn’t make it myth. Just because I believe it doesn’t make it truth. And believe it or not, I knew coming onto this site that I’d likely be a minority in my faith. In terms of accepting Allah or burning in hell, that’s fine, that’s whoever’s belief. But unless Allah and the Q’uran can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to me through science, logic, and reason, then I’m not going to put my faith into it as I did Christianity. I’m not here to attack your beliefs, I’m not here to attack any beliefs. I come with a gentle spirit, in all honesty I think that the atheists of the world are in danger. Now, I’m not going to run around saying turn or burn, it’s ridiculous and it just comes off dumb. I also will not push any of this down your throat. If you want me to shut up, and you all ask me to, I have no problem doing so.

 

Demonic influences? Oh, you mean the "evil spirits" that bible god takes credit for sending on people. Those "demonic influences".

 

King Saul, eh? All throughout the Bible you can read stories of God dealing out deserved justice. Saul had turned to a life style of sin. There is a whole dissertion on whether or not God actually “Sent” the demon, or just allowed it into Saul’s life. We learn throughout the Bible that God will let crap happen, so I tend to believe the second theory.

 

You might be a sinner, but I'm not.

 

Just because you don’t believe you’re a sinner doesn’t mean you aren’t one. I already know your response, “Just because you say I am one, doesn’t mean I am one”.

 

If he created everything perfect, there would be no wrong in the world. Simple as that.

 

You're looking at the world of today and imaging that this is how God created, and intended for it to be. This is not so. Everything in the beginning was created, but as soon as our free will kicked in and we disobeyed God, that's when everything wrong was released upon the world. Talk about opening Pandora's box...

 

Edit: Last paragraph: "Everything in the beginning was created *perfect*, but as soon ..."

[Guest MalaInSe]

Forget religion.

 

This isn’t about having better beliefs, cooler rituals, or stronger gods.

 

Assuming there’s a heaven, and it is perfect, to enter we must all be perfect.  However, and this is where sin comes in, we aren’t.  The definition of “sin” is very simply “Missing the mark”, or not being perfect.  To not be perfect, is to sin.  Thus we can conclude that man has a “sin nature”, since man isn’t perfect.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By whose standards are we not perfect? And if we aren't, why would your perfect God make an imperfect thing? At minimum, he made us with the capacity to disobey him, and therefore imperfect from the start. Your argument makes no sense-- we were perfect until we disobeyed, i.e., acted imperfectly.

[-Demona-]

(Thankful)

 

Wow, the picking and choosing is neverending. Reread Exodus and your bible. God HARDENED Pharoahs heart, then read Paul, where God "raised up Pharoah for the purpose of showing his "glory." Then shoot on over to Deuteronomy where the righteous Moses is upset with Joseph for keeping his captives alives; Moses instructions KILL ALL the women who have known men and the BOYS and keep the WOMEN CHILDREN for yourselves. Don't forget where God sends 2 she bears to maul 42 children to death for calling Elijah "Bald head".

 

Thank you, Thankful! That's just what I wanted to say. I wasn't just referring to just Exodus, but also Genesis, Leviticus, etc. and all the way down the line.

 

Somebody really needs to read their Bible. *coughclandestinycough*

 

(Clandestiny)

 

Okay, let me rephrase: The word sin in Greek meant to “miss the mark”. It’s an archery term. Aim for the Bulls Eye -> miss -> bam you’ve “sinned”.

 

I just researched that a bit and, as far as I've found, "sin" isn't an archery term. It's actually a mathematical term.

 

1. The ordinate of the endpoint of an arc of a unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system, the arc being of length x and measured counterclockwise from the point (1, 0) if x is positive or clockwise if x is negative.

2. In a right triangle, the ratio of the length of the side opposite an acute angle to the length of the hypotenuse.

 

Oh yeah, and it's the 21st letter of the Hebrew alphabet too.

 

Why would you be punished because you wear a 12-pointed pentacle around your neck? Sure, it’s one of those things that can open you up to demonic influences, and overall just bad vibes, but none of that is even guaranteed.

 

Actually, the pentacle I wear is said to give one insight into the beyond and all that jazz. Not saying it actually works, mind you, but I haven't had anything negative happen to me for wearing it. On the contrary, just wearing it seems to brighten my day a bit.

 

Demonic influences, my foot.

 

If God were to judge you, yes, you’d be written off as guilty. Do not stress though, I don’t know of any person here that wouldn’t be. The Bible very clearly states that we’re all sinners, and we've all fallen short of the glory of God. The difference is Heaven’s bouncer is Jesus and he’s going to get me in. Obviously an analogy and again, joking, so please don’t read too into it.

 

Who said I'm stressing? Being punished by God is a hypothethical situation, anyway. If it turned out to be true the day I die, I wouldn't be stressing... I'd be pissed.

 

Well, God created us perfect, we just decided to Sin. Jesus is the normal human being, He’s what we were like, and what we’re supposed to be like. If the bar were set to any attainable level, then we’d get “High priests” who’ve reached that level, then what happens? They become pompous and damn themselves. Pretty soon everybody fails.

 

Have you actually done research into standards of productivity in business and such? People can reach a bar if they are provided with small steps, room to improve, knowledge of the company's plan (or at least in their particular department, anyway) and good working conditions.

 

That's how the dynamic in the business world functions and, seeing as it's effective (ie. giving people reachable goals to follow with knowledge of what the final results are supposed to be maximizes their potential), it would stand to reason that a fair God would allow us to follow a spiritual path that takes small steps until we, well... maximize our potential as the human race.

 

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the businesses that end up going under after a few years are the ones whose employees are taking on too much responsibilities at once and/or they have no awareness of what they're doing it all for.

 

That "bad business" example sounds a lot like living on Planet Earth, doesn't it? Because the fact remains we're all just floundering, and looking for something that makes sense. Christians, atheists, pagans and all others alike.

 

The fact remains that the Bible, in those terms, is a bad business ethic if it's indeed from Divinity. The fact that it's lasted as long as it has is only a tribute to religious PR.

 

You’re assuming he isn’t a hands on deity, that he didn’t teach us to do things the right way, etc. Hello, what do you think the Bible is about, what about miraculous healings? There has been scientific research done on prayer and it’s effect on sick patients. 3 groups, group A and group B are both sick, while group C prayers for group B. The evidence showed a significant decrease (ie, not chance/luck) in the recovery time for group B.

 

Think about it for a moment. Is he really? Consider the study referenced in another thread (in the Religion & Science section, I believe) that discusses having put prayer to the test for people who are sick or dying. Prayer didn't make the sickly persons' healing any more effective. Jesus taught us how to pray, remember? Don't you think that, if he's the son of God, he should have taught us to do so in a manner that gets results?

 

Hell, even Jesus' own prayer not to die (at the Garden of Gethsemane) went unanswered. He honestly and truly didn't want to die, and begged his Heavenly Father to "pass this cup from me".

 

If God were so hands-on, don't you think he would intervene when we're in over our heads and need help? I remember asking God for help myself plenty of times on very serious matters when I was still Christian (read my anti-testimony if you want the story in full), and I was never answered.

 

I once asked God for proof of his own existence to bolster my flagging faith. And you know what the response I got was? Silence. Just dead silence.

 

The above is not a testimony, incidentally. It's a remark on tests given that God failed. I submit my experience as proof that, if he or she is there at all, (s)he does not answer prayers and does not intervene in any visible manner.

 

Prayer is fairly ineffective in reality. Anything else is either wishful thinking, good surgeons when we're ill, good genetics or one's own strong desires to get better. The human mind is an extraordinary instrument. We can quite literally hypnotize ourselves into or out of anything.

 

Furthermore, why would a loving and just God put his advice in a poorly written book filled to the brim with violence and sexism? (Seriously. Read it and you'll understand why I say that.)

 

I think you should defend your convictions.

 

Why should I? You're the one answering my challenge. Per the rules of debate, the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders, not mine. You're posting your side in the debate to try to prove a positive. So far, you have been ineffective.

 

And, logically speaking, I can't prove a negative. I can only disprove a positive. It's not my personal beliefs that are up for debate here, but those of Christians.

 

All you have is faith that God doesn’t exist, I have faith that he does.

 

When did I say I was an atheist? I don't recall mentioning it because, the fact is, I'm not an atheist. I'm just an a-BibleGod-ist.

 

When I'm referencing "God" here in my posts, it's simply shorthand for God-as-written-in-the-Bible.

 

You’re right, I can’t definitively prove 100% that God exists, however you also equivalently can’t disprove God.

 

No, I can't disprove the existence of a God of some sort, but I can point out that there is no proof in reality that the God depicted in the Bible exists.

 

Belief doesn’t make it true.

 

*sigh* Isn't that what I just said in my previous post?

 

You’re right, the internet does turn into a classic “us vs. them” mentality. That’s why you started this thread, right?

 

Only in the case of the proselytizing variety of Christians (which were the "Christians" I was referring to in the thread title). Though, they tend to do it to "us" (meaning the former Christians here) without stopping to think why we all chose the way we did first. I simply got tired of hearing the jeering and decided to stand up to it.

 

Notice how I said earlier in the thread (first page) that TAP, BigToe and my mother were exempt from debating me? Because they proven themselves to be genuine? Yeah... well, you don't see them here in this thread, do you?

 

And if you're wondering why I don't want to debate them, it's because I have a lot of respect for them as people. As debates can get rather heated (and my method of posting can come on strong, admittedly), I don't want them getting burnt or there being hurt feelings on either side.

 

So, no. I'm not really operating on an "us vs. them" mentality. I can separate the wheat from the chaff and not just simply set fire to the entire field. And this is my way of doing that.

 

The description on the front-page of the forum says that debates in here can get rather heated. You debate here, you're taking a risk of getting your backside handed to you.

 

Believe me, if that's not the way you roll, then I'll understand and you and I can stop debating in this thread. I'm not unreasonable. I'm just passionate about things that tickle my fancy.

 

Anyway, you asked me to point out biblical contradictions. Which topic (or handful to topics) regarding contradictions would you like me to start with? I'm asking you because I want to narrow the focus of the debate so we both don't get too verbose after this point.... and focusing on one or three things at a time can be easier on my brain (which tends to run at 10000000 mph, in all directions).

[-Demona-]

I just saw your reply to Thankful, Clandestiny, and want to provide a quick response.

 

You’re right, history books don’t make the laws that made women property, but where does the Bible say “Women are property”? Honestly, if it does I’d love to research it, you certainly don’t seem willing to.

 

In the 29th Chapter of Genesis, Jacob has to do a grand total of 14 years of hard labor to pay for his chosen bride, Rachel. Rachel's father claimed that he'd give Rachel over after 7 years of work, but lied and gave Jake Rach's big sis Leah first. Then Jacob had to work another 7 years to pay for Rach.

 

In Exodus, one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." A wife is property as much as an ox or ass is.

 

Also in Exodus (Chapter 21): "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." Young women were bought by older men and sold by their fathers.

 

Again in Exodus (Chapter 22): "And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins." Entice actually meaning rape. In other words, if a man rapes a woman, he has to pay for her via marriage. And if the father doesn't want to give her up, the rapist pays the father a fine, as if she was a whore he used for the night. Nothing is said about recompensing the victim of the crime: the woman.

 

And that's just in the first two books of the Bible. Need I go on?

[Cerise]

You’re right, the picking and choosing is never ending.  Exodus 7:13 “Yet Pharoah’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.” And Exodus 8:15 “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.”  Scripture indicates that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and either God hardened his heart further, or whatever.

 

Exactly which part of this lousy excuse of yours absolves God of responsibility for the hardening of Pharoah's heart here? Scripture that contradicts other scripture doesn't cancel out the verse interpretation you don't like with the one you do like. I know a lot of christians like to think it does but it doesn't. All it does is serve to add to the confusion and contradiction rife within the fallible, man-made literature of culteral mythology that is the bible.

Ah, I remember learning about the bears mauling the 42 kids.  Basically, it was more of a poor wording in terms of translation.  Kids is a misleading term, basically it’d be the equivalent of a high school gang.  “Bald head” was a HUGE insult at the time, and Elijah was genuinely threatened.  It’s not a bunch of 8 year olds throwing pointless insults; it’s a gang threatening Elijah.

 

A gang threatening him with the calling of names. Ah yes. How terrifying. Hasn't Elijah ever heard of 'sticks and stones'? So, the bear God sent lauled to death teenagers instead of preteens and tweens. That just makes it so much better. We all know teenagers are worthless and should be killed at the whims of gods everwhere. Any more silly excuses to make?

When I say “for the times” I mean, that’s the way that it was.  Just because it happened doesn’t mean God likes it or wanted it to happen. 

 

Actually, it does. Or are you going to try and say that your God is neither all-powerful or all-knowing? Nothing can happen "against the will" or an all-powerfuol being. That would mean an outside power could threaten God's authority. In which case, why worship him?

 

Actually, if God had his way we never would have sinned in the first place. 

 

Pull the other one, it has bells. Why are christians always diminishing their god as soon as he gets responsibility for anything they don't like hearing about (such as evil and sin)? It's dishonest. Your holy book says specifically that God created EVERYTHING. And that includes sin and evil.

 

If man were able to sin it is only because God made it possible for him to do so.

 

You’re right, history books don’t make the laws that made women property, but where does the Bible say “Women are property”?  Honestly, if it does I’d love to research it, you certainly don’t seem willing to.

 

Read your frikken holy book once and a while to see what it says. Then come back and talk to us once you've gained some knowledge of your own religion. I'm not holding my breath, by the way.

 

But unless Allah and the Q’uran can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to me through science, logic, and reason, then I’m not going to put my faith into it as I did Christianity. 

 

And you think that Jehovah and the Bible can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt through science, logic, and reason?

 

If you want me to shut up, and you all ask me to, I have no problem doing so.

 

Shut up until you have something new and not regurgiated to say.

 

King Saul, eh?  All throughout the Bible you can read stories of God dealing out deserved justice.  Saul had turned to a life style of sin.  There is a whole dissertion on whether or not God actually “Sent” the demon, or just allowed it into Saul’s life.  We learn throughout the Bible that God will let crap happen, so I tend to believe the second theory.

 

Once again, how does this absolve God from responsibility? If I leave poison on the kitchen counter and "allow" my children to drink it, I'm just as responsible for their deaths as I would be if I had fed the poisen to them in their lunches.

 

You're looking at the world of today and imaging that this is how God created, and intended for it to be.  This is not so.  Everything in the beginning was created, but as soon as our free will kicked in and we disobeyed God, that's when everything wrong was released upon the world.  Talk about opening Pandora's box...

 

Think about what you are saying. And I know asking a christian to think is like asking the moon to turn into a disco ball. Here you have an all-powerful being--a God even, who decides to make a planet. He has control over everything. He controls the size and shape and breathing ratio of every animal. He makes an animal called man. He makes and animal called man with something called free will.

 

Imagine also that thing God-being is all-knowing. He knows how many warts are on the toads. He knows how many stars are in the sky. He knows the future. He knows what will happen if he gives man something called "free will". He also knows that one of his angels will fall.

 

How can someone who knows what will happen when he gives man free will and deliberately does it anyway be "disobeyed"? If you know exactly what will happen if you knock a glass of water off a counter then you can't say the water disobeyed you for spilling on the floor. It did what you caused it to do. If you hadn't tipped it, or put it so close to the edge of the counter, it wouldn't have fallen off.

 

THINK FOR A SECOND ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

 

Do you or do you not believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful god? Because saying shit like this means you don't. You believe in a god that makes mistakes and gets his plans fucked up all the time.

[Caretaker]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

 

re·li·gion

n.

 

1.

a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

 

Christianity is most certainly a religion.

 

And as much as you would LOVE to call Evolutionism a religion, I don't hold it in reverence, and while I do find it to be much more plausible than Creationism, I definitely do not hold it to be the ultimate truth like you do with your RELIGION.

 

To call Christianity a relationship, not a religion is tired and overused and insults our intelligence.

[LloydDobler]

About this time I read a book called “Case for Faith”, which is essentially several different science based reasons to have faith. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You completely blew your credibility right here. Lee Strobel's writing and 'research' is the weakest of weak.

[Guest Scorpio]

About this time I read a book called “Case for Faith”, which is essentially several different science based reasons to have faith.

 

lollerskates

[Guest Tom]

I challenge you, Christians, to prove to me why your beliefs are so much better than those of the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Jews, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Druids, and all the rest of humanity in its many forms.

 

What makes your religion so special? Every religion in the world has some sort of godman who did great works and was a sacrifice for some greater good. Every religion has very clear concepts of right and wrong, of good and evil.

 

Prove to me how your beliefs are valid. Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind.

 

You claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I challenge you to defend it.

 

I am the very least of the unbelievers here. Better to respond to my challenge intelligently before you go after the big guys here.

 

Go on. Take a swing at it. If you are as comfortable and knowledgable in your beliefs as you say you are, then you have very little to fear from me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Fweethawt]

I challenge you, Christians, to prove to me why your beliefs are so much better than those of the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Jews, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Druids, and all the rest of humanity in its many forms.

 

What makes your religion so special? Every religion in the world has some sort of godman who did great works and was a sacrifice for some greater good. Every religion has very clear concepts of right and wrong, of good and evil.

 

Prove to me how your beliefs are valid. Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind.

 

You claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I challenge you to defend it.

 

I am the very least of the unbelievers here. Better to respond to my challenge intelligently before you go after the big guys here.

 

Go on. Take a swing at it. If you are as comfortable and knowledgable in your beliefs as you say you are, then you have very little to fear from me.

 

Oh yeah?!?!?!

 

Well...

 

Here's what I have to say to that!!!

 

 

I challenge you, Christians, to prove to me why your beliefs are so much better than those of the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Jews, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Druids, and all the rest of humanity in its many forms.

 

What makes your religion so special? Every religion in the world has some sort of godman who did great works and was a sacrifice for some greater good. Every religion has very clear concepts of right and wrong, of good and evil.

 

Prove to me how your beliefs are valid. Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind.

 

You claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I challenge you to defend it.

 

I am the very least of the unbelievers here. Better to respond to my challenge intelligently before you go after the big guys here.

 

Go on. Take a swing at it. If you are as comfortable and knowledgable in your beliefs as you say you are, then you have very little to fear from me.

 

 

 

 

(mods can delete this post if they feel so inclined.)

[Guest Tom]

Hi,

I am new to this and usually don't 'do' this type of site. But I am very interested in the challenge to defend my beliefs.

 

My first thought is, why do you want me to defend my beliefs. My beliefs are my beliefs and it can not be assailed nor can it be truly defended because it comes down to a personal choice based upon motives and incidents peculiar to my life. Do you wish to attack my choice. I think you are too liberal to try to convince me I don't have a right to choose.

 

Besides, If you really cared for an intellectual discussion of my beliefs you can get that for $20 in Barnes and Nobel. My case is well presented in numerous books available in any bookstore.

 

Perhaps You might care to hear a few of the incidents that have persuaded me that God is real and his Son died for us all.

 

I had checked out many spiritual trips in college. This was the late 60's. I read about Buddah,, TM, Dianetics, Hinuisim(?). I had read the mystics from Nostradamus to Edgar Cayce, to Jean Dixon. I decided that is was all stupid and ddecided to lay it down. I was proud that the only time I went to church was when Jack Kennedy was shot.

I had been married for 3.5 years and was basicly a beer drinking guy who played ball 6 or 7 days a week. Some Sunday nights were free,, so I did the 'right' thing and tried to be a good husband by taking my wife to church. There some weird lady came up to me and said something like, "Don't you just love the Lord." I really embarressed my wife by letting her know what a fruitcake she was. The next week the same lady did the same thing. My wife, trying to keep things cool, interjected that i was grumpy because of chronic back pain. The lady said 'God doesn't want you in pain and He is going to heal you now." Before I knew what was happening this lady started to pray and in 2 minutes my back was completely fine and had not bothered me for 30 years.

 

After 3 more years of careful examination I accepted Jesus as Lord and since then He has proved Himself real over and over again.

 

I don't know if you really care, but I have personally seen him perform miraculous instant healings of many problems. I have personally felt broken bones come back together while I held a finger and the pain immediately stop. I have a border who was a 30 year crack addict and 10 years homeless who was immediately delivered of his addiction - 6 years ago. I have freinds who were on the verge of very angry divorce who are Joyfully together today. Last Saturday I went to the heterosexual wedding of a very close former lesbian. I have several friends who have been delivered from the homosexual lifestyle. Over and over many times, Jesus has proved Himself over and over and over again.

 

I am no pastor, preacher. just a cube living computer guy. But to me, the miraculous events of a loving God are a weekly/monthly event. Not to mention the joy an dcontentment of my day to day life.

 

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not. You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him.

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name. I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos. For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

Oh yeah, that weird lady who prayed for me is a great friend of mine now.

[Guest Tom]

Hi,

I am new to this and usually don't 'do' this type of site.  But I am very interested in the challenge to defend my beliefs. 

 

My first thought is, why do you want me to defend my beliefs.  My beliefs are my beliefs and it can not be assailed nor can it be truly defended because it comes down to a personal choice based upon motives and incidents peculiar to my life.  Do you wish to attack my choice.  I think you are too liberal to try to convince me I don't have a right to choose. 

 

Besides, If you really cared for an intellectual discussion of my beliefs you can get that for $20 in Barnes and Nobel.  My case is well presented in numerous books available in any bookstore. 

 

Perhaps You might care to hear a few of the incidents that have persuaded me that God is real and his Son died for us all.

 

I had checked out many spiritual trips in college.  This was the late 60's.  I read about Buddah,, TM, Dianetics, Hinuisim(?).  I had read the mystics from Nostradamus to Edgar Cayce, to Jean Dixon.  I decided that is was all stupid and ddecided to lay it down.  I was proud that the only time I went to church was when Jack Kennedy was shot. 

I had been married for 3.5 years and was basicly a beer drinking guy who played ball 6 or 7 days a week.  Some Sunday nights were free,, so I did the 'right' thing and tried to be a good husband by taking my wife to church.  There some weird lady came up to me and said something like, "Don't you just love the Lord."  I really embarressed my wife by letting her know what a fruitcake she was.  The next week the same lady did the same thing.  My wife, trying to keep things cool, interjected that i was grumpy because of chronic back pain.  The lady said 'God doesn't want you in pain and He is going to heal you now."  Before I knew what was happening this lady started to pray and in 2 minutes my back was completely fine and had not bothered me for 30 years.

 

After 3 more years of careful examination I accepted Jesus as Lord and since then He has proved Himself real over and over again.

 

I don't know if you really care, but I have personally seen him perform miraculous instant healings of many problems.  I have personally felt broken bones come back together while I held a finger and the pain immediately stop.  I have a border who was a 30 year crack addict and 10 years homeless who was immediately delivered of his addiction - 6 years ago.  I have freinds who were on the verge of very angry divorce who are Joyfully together today.  Last Saturday I went to the heterosexual wedding of a very close former lesbian.  I have several friends who have been delivered from the homosexual lifestyle.  Over and over many times, Jesus has proved Himself over and over and over again. 

 

I am no pastor, preacher.  just a cube living computer guy.  But to me, the miraculous events of a loving God are a weekly/monthly event.  Not to mention the joy an dcontentment of my day to day life.

 

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not.  You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him. 

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name.  I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos.  For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

Oh yeah, that weird lady who prayed for me is a great friend of mine now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Fweethawt]

Hey everybody, I'm takin' off for the day.

 

 

Enjoy your meal.

 

I've heard that most Tom's go well with a white wine rather than a red.

[Fweethawt]

Dude,

 

You are so going to regret saying this.

 

 

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not.  You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him. 

[Guest JP1283]

Dude,

 

You are so going to regret saying this. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Tom, you are going to be eaten alive for that. I would suggest going to find a hiding place right about now.

 

JP

[Cerise]

The next week the same lady did the same thing.  My wife, trying to keep things cool, interjected that i was grumpy because of chronic back pain.  The lady said 'God doesn't want you in pain and He is going to heal you now."  Before I knew what was happening this lady started to pray and in 2 minutes my back was completely fine and had not bothered me for 30 years.

 

After 3 more years of careful examination I accepted Jesus as Lord and since then He has proved Himself real over and over again.

 

I don't know if you really care, but I have personally seen him perform miraculous instant healings of many problems.  I have personally felt broken bones come back together while I held a finger and the pain immediately stop.  I have a border who was a 30 year crack addict and 10 years homeless who was immediately delivered of his addiction - 6 years ago.  I have freinds who were on the verge of very angry divorce who are Joyfully together today.  Last Saturday I went to the heterosexual wedding of a very close former lesbian.  I have several friends who have been delivered from the homosexual lifestyle.  Over and over many times, Jesus has proved Himself over and over and over again. 

 

I am no pastor, preacher.  just a cube living computer guy.  But to me, the miraculous events of a loving God are a weekly/monthly event.  Not to mention the joy an dcontentment of my day to day life.

 

 

Do you realize how shallow and petty your God is when you present things like that as proof he exists?

 

God can't stop child abuse, but he can instantly cure your chronic back pain! And turn some gays straight! AMEN!!

 

[Ouroboros]

Hi,

I am new to this and usually don't 'do' this type of site.  But I am very interested in the challenge to defend my beliefs. 

 

My first thought is, why do you want me to defend my beliefs.  My beliefs are my beliefs and it can not be assailed nor can it be truly defended because it comes down to a personal choice based upon motives and incidents peculiar to my life.  Do you wish to attack my choice.  I think you are too liberal to try to convince me I don't have a right to choose. 

 

Besides, If you really cared for an intellectual discussion of my beliefs you can get that for $20 in Barnes and Nobel.  My case is well presented in numerous books available in any bookstore. 

 

Perhaps You might care to hear a few of the incidents that have persuaded me that God is real and his Son died for us all.

 

I had checked out many spiritual trips in college.  This was the late 60's.  I read about Buddah,, TM, Dianetics, Hinuisim(?).  I had read the mystics from Nostradamus to Edgar Cayce, to Jean Dixon.  I decided that is was all stupid and ddecided to lay it down.  I was proud that the only time I went to church was when Jack Kennedy was shot. 

I had been married for 3.5 years and was basicly a beer drinking guy who played ball 6 or 7 days a week.  Some Sunday nights were free,, so I did the 'right' thing and tried to be a good husband by taking my wife to church.  There some weird lady came up to me and said something like, "Don't you just love the Lord."  I really embarressed my wife by letting her know what a fruitcake she was.  The next week the same lady did the same thing.  My wife, trying to keep things cool, interjected that i was grumpy because of chronic back pain.  The lady said 'God doesn't want you in pain and He is going to heal you now."  Before I knew what was happening this lady started to pray and in 2 minutes my back was completely fine and had not bothered me for 30 years.

 

After 3 more years of careful examination I accepted Jesus as Lord and since then He has proved Himself real over and over again.

 

I don't know if you really care, but I have personally seen him perform miraculous instant healings of many problems.  I have personally felt broken bones come back together while I held a finger and the pain immediately stop.  I have a border who was a 30 year crack addict and 10 years homeless who was immediately delivered of his addiction - 6 years ago.  I have freinds who were on the verge of very angry divorce who are Joyfully together today.  Last Saturday I went to the heterosexual wedding of a very close former lesbian.  I have several friends who have been delivered from the homosexual lifestyle.  Over and over many times, Jesus has proved Himself over and over and over again. 

 

I am no pastor, preacher.  just a cube living computer guy.  But to me, the miraculous events of a loving God are a weekly/monthly event.  Not to mention the joy an dcontentment of my day to day life.

 

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not.  You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him. 

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name.  I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos.  For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

Oh yeah, that weird lady who prayed for me is a great friend of mine now.

Sorry Tom, but something doesn't jive in your story. You talk like a young kid and claim you lived a very long life (65+). And your brother must be even older and recently came of crack. Hmmm. The story might be true, but it doesn’t sound believable in its presentation…

 

And you’re a cubicle computer guy after all these events? I would be a missionary and pray for people’s healings if I saw these things. Where did your commitment go? And by the way, your working with computers and can’t use spell check?

 

You say there are books about your case that have intellectual discussion about your special case, but yet you have bad grammar and can’t spell!

 

You don't even know how to spell Hindu, even though you say you studied it!

 

If you want to come off as educated, famous and knowledgeable you better learn how to us the spell check on your computer, learn more advanced language, because right now you sound like a 17 year old troll that want to show off with some made up stories.

[Guest Priapus]

Tom, I suffered two herniated lumbar disks while I was a Christian and never had any healing until I had surgery. Now, if God made me do the dumb think that ruptured the disks so he could then heal me, maybe I could see that. I mean, its kind of cruel to put someone through that kind of pain just to show off your power, but hey, who is the clay to question the potter, right?

 

I spent 12 years faithfully believing that prayer would ease suffering and heal infirmity, just as you described. Sure, we didn't become Christians for the "what's in it for me" angle, but the promise of eternal life deferred to an eternity for which there is no evidence at all was just too thin after a while. This is especially true when Good People like you roll up with testimonies and pastors cite the Scriptures as promises that God does intervene.

 

And yes, I prayed God would increase my faith and endurance, in Jesus' name, and had others praying for that, and nothing. In fact, comparing pre- and post- Christian periods in my life to that time when I was a believer, I find virtually no qualitative difference in health, relationships, or fortune. In fact, I have less anxiety now because I don't worry that I'm pleasing God anymore.

 

Good deals for you if it works. It didn't work for me so I gave it up.

 

 

And as Han put it, your inability to spell "Hindu" after having made any sort of academic study or even being a reasonably literate 21st century adult makes ye kinda suspect.

[NotBlinded]

Sounds like you’re referring to Exodus, where God allowed the slaughter of all the first-born of Egypt.  It’s simple obedience, the Egyptians brought it on themselves.  God commanded to put the blood of the lamb on the doorway, over it, etc, and their house would be passed over, allowing the first born not to be taken.  God says “Do this, and you’ll be okay”.  It’d be like if the President told you “Hey, there’s a bomb coming, and if you stand in my shelter, you’ll be okay.”  But you’re like, “…Naah, I don’t feel like it.”

 

Please! Just who is it that is sending the bomb? If the president is sending it to his own people, would we still follow him?

 

You’re right, I can’t definitively prove 100% that God exists, however you also equivalently can’t disprove God.  All you have is faith that God doesn’t exist, I have faith that he does.  I also have a lot of signs pointing in my direction, as I’m sure you do.  Belief doesn’t make it true.

Did you really just say that? If that is how you feel, then please go ahead and dis-prove all the other gods. There is a saying, "I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you."

[-Demona-]

Tom, did you actually have something to say, or were you needlessly quoting me?

[Guest Tom]

Tom, did you actually have something to say, or were you needlessly quoting me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HI,

Sorry about the big copy of the quote. Like I said I am new to this and must have misfired.

 

I thought I could hear the chorus crying "fresh meat, fresh meat" when I sent my post.

 

Well so far I am disappointed in these posts. I heard a cry for a discussion and so far it has just been emotional and unsubstantiated attacks at my veracity. And also, I apologize for my spelling. I did not know that you got extra points for spelling. I sure hope you have some mercy left over in case you run into someone who is dyslexic.

 

Anyway I have been asked for a defense of my beliefs and to have a defense there must be an offensive. So far, I feel like Dorothy being confronted by the Cowardly Lion. All bluster.

 

So this is your opportunity to devour another of us poor lambs. I only ask this that in every discussion we all seeking truth. Personal attacks make one seem small and trivial. I will come to these discussions openly and respecting your views. Can you do the same?

 

Let the game begin!

[Guest Tom]

Tom, I suffered two herniated lumbar disks while I was a Christian and never had any healing until I had surgery. Now, if God made me do the dumb think that ruptured the disks so he could then heal me, maybe I could see that. I mean, its kind of cruel to put someone through that kind of pain just to show off your power, but hey, who is the clay to question the potter, right?

 

I spent 12 years faithfully believing that prayer would ease suffering and heal infirmity, just as you described. Sure, we didn't become Christians for the "what's in it for me" angle, but the promise of eternal life deferred to an eternity for which there is no evidence at all was just too thin after a while. This is especially true when Good People like you roll up with testimonies and pastors cite the Scriptures as promises that God does intervene.

 

And yes, I prayed God would increase my faith and endurance, in Jesus' name, and had others praying for that, and nothing. In fact, comparing pre- and post- Christian periods in my life to that time when I was a believer, I find virtually no qualitative difference in health, relationships, or fortune. In fact, I have less anxiety now because I don't worry that I'm pleasing God anymore.

 

Good deals for you if it works. It didn't work for me so I gave it up.

And as Han put it, your inability to spell "Hindu" after having made any sort of academic study or even being a reasonably literate 21st century adult makes ye kinda suspect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HI,

I am sorry for your pain. I thought someone was asking me to explain why I belive in God. To present a more balanced picture, I have prayed for many people who have not been healed. I have soon good sweet people trusting Jesus through excruciating pain until they died of cancer.

 

I do not understand your comment about having anxiety about pleasing God. How can you be ansious about pleasing someone who loves you? When someone loves you there is not earning of relationship. The relationship is. It is because of the love. If I were to say I love you, would that be conditional? If I love you and you did something evil would I stop loving you? That is not love and not the relationship that God offers (at least the way I read the Bible)

 

 

Also sorry about the spelling. Would you judge me on that basis. Not thinking that perhaps I had to go to work and did not look for errors.

[Guest Priapus]

I do not understand your comment about having anxiety about pleasing God.  How can you be ansious about pleasing someone who loves you?  When someone loves you there is not earning of relationship.  The relationship is.  It is because of the love.  If I were to say I love you, would that be conditional?  If I love you and you did something evil would I stop loving you?  That is not love and not the relationship that God offers (at least the way I read the Bible) 

Also sorry about the spelling.  Would you judge me on that basis.  Not thinking that perhaps I had to go to work and did not look for errors.

 

 

I never knew if the choices I made pleased God or were in His will. Did something go wrong because I was acting contrary to His will? Was it because I holding some secret unconfessed sin? The scriptures are full of stories telling how God withheld his blessing from one who had strayed. And even then, I never really knew if any good deals I got were God's blessing or just the garden variety accidental good fortune that came to anyone, believers or otherwise.

 

I wanted to be guided by the Holy Spirit, not my own will. I prayed constantly for some direction that I was making "Godly" choices for me and my family. I was always confessing and sometimes not even certain if what I'd done was a sin or not. I'd ask the Holy Spirit to convict me but nothing. It was as though I had the phone but nobody was on the other end of the line. That, plus no discernable answer to any prayers for anything, no matter how trivial.

 

Sure, I get the whole "unconditional love" part. But is that love completely undemonstrated? I mean, beyond the whole legend of "giving his only son" and even that was for redemption after I die. I've never communicated with the dead so I don't know if it's true or not. I don't fawn all over my kids with boundless attention, but neither do I leave them completely on their own, never giving them any sign of my presence. That'd be cruel.

 

If I told you I loved you, but then you never saw or heard from me, nor saw anything tangible to demonstrate that love in any but the most academic sense, would it have any value to you? Would you have any reason at all to love me back?

 

Nobody should debate you on what you believe. Beliefs are, by their nature, beyond debate. I merely put forth that I tried your program and found it utterly hollow. If it brings you peace, joy, and comfort then I'm happy for you.

 

 

 

And take care on this one:

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not. You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him.

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name. I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos. For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

The old, "You were an inadequate Christian and/or were deceived" argument invalidates what many of us said. No church, kooks, or "weirdos" ever mistreated me in a churchful way. It's just that after the prayer and worship and all, nothing happened. It yielded no tangible difference in my life beyond the abstract knowledge that invisible, silent God Loved me and, I suppose, I'd be treated, after death, to spending eternity in his silent, invisible presence. It just wasn't very compelling, especially when it came at the cost of thousands of dollars in donations and 1/2 of every Sunday I could have been riding my bike or playing with my kids.

[Ouroboros]

Tom,

 

It's ok to have the spelling and grammatical errors, it was just that if you bring in a controversial response it's important to also make sure it comes across as reliable. That was my point. Say for instance I would go in to a Church and start preaching that belief in Allah and Mohammed is the true faith and Allah has healed my sick body, you wouldn't easily accept what I said if I came across like an illiterate (not saying that you are), but some preparation is recommended when a serious message is sent. Don't you agree?

 

I wouldn't care less if you spell wrong in all your postings, but if the tables were turned you would not readily listen or believe me if I didn't took a little time to make sure it sounded believable. The more serious a message I send, the more time I spend on it, to make sure people don’t have petty things to get hooked up on.

 

I think it’s amazing you had these experiences and miracles, but without discrediting them, I wonder why God chooses who will receive the miracles randomly. It’s only based on chance if you get it or not, and that won’t really help everyone to believe. And another question I have is that if you are so sure about God’s miraculous healing powers, why you don’t have a job in a fulltime healing ministry?

[Checkmate]

HI,

 

I do not understand your comment about having anxiety about pleasing God.  How can you be ansious about pleasing someone who loves you?  When someone loves you there is not earning of relationship.  The relationship is.  It is because of the love.  If I were to say I love you, would that be conditional?  If I love you and you did something evil would I stop loving you?  That is not love and not the relationship that God offers (at least the way I read the Bible) 

 

 

You don't understand the anxiety of pleasing god? Well, maybe YOUR bible can clear that up.

 

Matthew 7:21-23 --

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[so even IF you THINK you're "saved", you may NOT be! I think that's cause for anxiety.]

 

Luke 19:27 --

27 'But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.' "

 

["God" isn't very "loving" nor "forgiving" here, as he slays those who rebuffed his rulership. Again, can you see the reason for anxiety?]

 

Romans 9:15-23

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

 

[Paul here explains that "God" creates people for salvation AND destruction. And we might as well shut up and color, cause there ain't dammit we can do about it. Anxiety alert gone off yet?]

 

Revelation 21:8 --

8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[Knowing that it is "God" who makes us all these things, and despite what we may THINK we are, we could still wind up being chucked into the fire--sounds like the very recipe for anxiety to me.]

 

 

But, you see, Tom, this is merely an exercise for YOU, since you claim to NOT see any reason for anxiety.

 

I personally have NO anxiety, because I stopped believing in this sick fairy tale a few months back.

 

Also, you seem to believe in the "unconditional love" aspect of God. How can this be? "God" is saying "Love me, and I will reward you. Reject me, and I will kill AND punish you."

 

What is THAT if not conditional?!? It's a divine gun to the head. "Love me or else!" That is the very definition of terrorism.

 

If you can't SEE this, then perhaps it is YOU that is blind.