Challenge to Christians.

[Cerise]

That's right!  I'm a kid. I don't understand God fully. I see through a glass darkly. By His grace and mercy, I see less darkly than you, but that's no reason for pride on my part, it was His choice to reveal it to me.

 

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus!  I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus. We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world".  If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ. They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it. In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all.  But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off.  Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ!  Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1.  Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus.  There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus".  There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next.  Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

 

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters.  Get a freakin backbone!  Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you. Cause all I see is a lot of angry people. If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus.  You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith? Let's hear you defend yours.  If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country. 

 

But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH.  (Just a really mean one.)

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

 

And I'm still praying for you, Han.

 

Doug

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

1) Get off your cross. Consider for a moment that people have better things to do then listen to you whine about persucution you have never personally suffered.

 

2) BULLSHIT you aren't saying this out of anger or animosity. Although you might want to add another word; "pomposity".

 

3) I suppose you think you have the RIGHT Jesus while everyone who ever disagreed with you has the WRONG Jesus. I hope you feel comfortable in your arrogancy. From what I can tell, the bible frowns on such obvious pride, but hey, what to I know? I've obviously worshiped the WRONG kind of God.

 

4) If you don't want to listen to us, if you have no intention of doing so (and from what I can see of your last post, you don't have ANY intention of doing so) then please, for all our sakes, go away. We don't need you here, and we don't want you here. Not if you are going to be like this. Go torture someone else.

[Ms. K]

That's right! I'm a kid. I don't understand God fully. I see through a glass darkly. By His grace and mercy, I see less darkly than you, but that's no reason for pride on my part, it was His choice to reveal it to me.

 

You see less darkly than the rest of us? And how exactly would you know that, because you as a Christian are RIGHT, and the rest of us are WRONG? The last time religion ruled the world, that period of history was known as the Dark Ages, incidentally. Crusading was the best way to "win" converts....either that or kill off heathens.

 

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus! I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus. We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world". If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

The wrong Jesus? I thought there was only one Jesus, the son of God...or are you saying that the Antichrist has arrived already?

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ. They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it. In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all. But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off. Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ! Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

 

Well, if you were a TRUE Christian, you'd go evangelize in China. Wait, I'm mixing threads. But, it still stands. I've heard those stories before. So the Chinese government persecutes Christians. Yeah? I live in America, and Christians are not persecuted here. Laughed at for their ridiculous claims that the Magic Sky Daddy will fix everything, but not persecuted. Not allowed to deny the rest of us basic civil rights, but not persecuted. You can still meet in the church of your choice, you can still raise a hue and cry over how eeeeeevil The Gays and their Homosexual Agenda are, you still raise money for dominionist politicians. You're not persecuted. Get over yourself.

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1. Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

And this is supposed to illustrate what to me? That this guy was in the right place at the right time dealing with someone who knew nothing about the proper value of real estate? If you're going to try to convince me that this is a "miracle", I'm not buying it. Something about if God gave us all free will, why would he jerk us around like puppets on a string to suit his own purposes? Or was I not supposed to ask that logical question?

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus. There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus". There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

All religion is a man-made construct. Christianity is not exempt. And you can't sit around and tell me that there's more than one Jesus if you're a True Christian. If you're a True Christian, there's only ONE Jesus. Once again, are you trying to allude that the Antichrist has come?

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next. Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

 

If we should do it out of love, not obligation, why does Christianity give us nothing but "do-it-or-thou-shalt-be-damned"? And why should I fall on my face and beg and plead for mercy? Do you really think that Jesus is that narcissistic and needs continual adoration in order to bestir himself for your benefit? I think that's a pantload. And I think perpetuation of this myth is a disservice to many.

 

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters. Get a freakin backbone! Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you. Cause all I see is a lot of angry people. If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

 

I'm not an agnostic. I'm not an atheist, either. I'm a deist. You really need to research your terminology, and by the way, blanket statements are not going to strengthen your argument. I'm not a fence-sitter, and of the posts I've read, there's not many fence-sitters here. I'm not angry, either. I just don't like people who expect me to believe that their myth is better than someone else's, but can't give me a good argument as to why, and tell me I have to accept it on blind faith. Why? You would never agree to a medical procedure without good reason, you can't expect someone to believe in Christianity without good reason. And just because the Bible says so is not good reason.

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus. You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

 

The most ridiculous two paragraphs I've read in your argument so far. You sound like an angry, bitter little man who is realizing that your religion is nothing but a man-made construct meant to keep people in line. Or you are getting pissed because you can't convince the rest of us that YOU and YOUR god are RIGHT, and we in our unbelief are WRONG. By the way, where's your cite for the government planning on allowing open season on Christians? Because in all reality, the current administration is a bunch of Christian Coalition dominionists, intent on stripping those of us who don't believe the way THEY do of our rights.

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith? Let's hear you defend yours. If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country.

 

The only religion I believe in anymore is Sunday Morning Sports. And why is it all about you defending YOUR faith? Because for one, it's not up to us to prove a negative, it's up to you to prove your positive. Not to mention, the title of the thread is "Christians, Defend Your Faith." Like, duh! Oh, and sharing my "faith"? I don't proselytize my views on the unsuspecting and unwilling to hear...unlike many evangelical Christians I have known.

 

But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH. (Just a really mean one.)

 

I stand corrected. THIS is the most ridiculous of your arguments.

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

 

Now, well, I'm just going to have to go take a Claritin. You see, I'm allergic to bullshit.

 

And I'm still praying for you, Han.

 

He asked you to. Good for you. If the Magic Sky Daddy grants his wish, I'm sure Han will let you know.

 

 

 

Doug

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Doug, people like you are the reason I'm no longer a Christian. Hypocritical, mean-spirited, arrogant people just piss me off, and frankly, it's not a good way to win converts.

 

You are certainly entitled to believe what you like. And since the title of the thread is about Christians defending THEIR faith, we have nothing to prove to you.

 

By the way, brush up on your logic skills before you post something like this for someone like me to pick apart.

[Ouroboros]

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus!  I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus. We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world".  If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

Hey! You're not persecuted in this country (if you're in America)! You're not aliens in a foreign country! Christians is the overwhelming majority, and the ones being persectued are homosexuals, non christians and women deciding to make an abortion.

 

How do you know someone worship the wrong Jesus? The Bible says if you believe in Jesus you're saved, so how can it be the wrong Jesus?

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ.

There are many people that have been persecuted, tortured and killed for being of other religious ideologies, even atheists have been killed for being such, so Christianity doesn't become the True™ religion because you have martyrs.

 

They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it. In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all.  But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off.  Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

So, if Muslims would do that in a Christian country, that would be different how?

You're descibring how heretics had it during the medival times in the Catholic Europe.

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ!  Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

It has nothing to do with logic, but with emotional reasoning. If you want persecution in US, then you better stop putting Christian Presidents in office.

Then vote for a seculare president at the next election.

A Christian president won't persecute you, he can't because its his religion, right?

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1.  Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus.  There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus".  There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next.  Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

Eeeeh? Hit our face, so we cry for mercy, then do things out of love to him and not obligation? That is abused spouse syndrome in one sentence!

[Ouroboros]

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters.  Get a freakin backbone!

That's an insult! If I would start insulting you now, you would come back to me and say "hey, take my age in to consideration blah blah", just like SBF. First you guys insult us, then you can't take the heat back! I warn you here, because I'm about to fire back!

 

Your ignorance and lack of knowledge shines through here. Agnostic is a philosophical view that there is nothing that can prove that God exists, and there is nothing that can prove that God does NOT exist. And therefor we can not know! We can still have a belief in a God (theist, deist, pagan etc), or you can be atheist. Members of this site are of a multitude of DIFFERENT faiths nowdays. Several are Deists, several Atheists, your claim is moot and stupid. Shape up or ship out man!

 

Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you.

My life is much better now. I'm happy thanks! Prospering, have success and no more additional catastrophies in my family. And that didn't come until I stopped trusting the "dude in the sky". It helped me a lot to stop being dependent on something that doesn't exists. My life took a radical change to the better when I de-converted.

 

Cause all I see is a lot of angry people. If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

Some people are angry at Christians and Christianity, because they got abused, molested and hurt. Would these things make people angry?

 

People get persecuted, and they're only allowed to get angry if they're Christian?

 

I sense a very emotional, angry and aggressive Christian here!

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

So far, I've heard that Christians go after abortion doctors with the gun, and not the reversed. Who is being persecuted here, right now?

 

Homosexuals are persecuted in Texas. Governor wants to kick them all out from Texas. Isn't that persectution?

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus.  You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

Man! You're so full of it. There's barely NO persecution of Christians in the world! There's 2.2 Billion Christians, 1/3 of the world population. You got most of the world already to your religion, and you're not satisfied yet, it tells me more about you than us!

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith? Let's hear you defend yours.  If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country. 

It's an ex-Christian site, and you come here, make claims about God, we have to defend our ideologies? Do I come to your church and make you defend your faith there?

 

Several members from this site have been trying to argue with Christians on Christian forums, and get blocked and kicked out when they question your religion. So WHERE can we QUESTION CHRISTIANITY? Not there, and now not here! Because of you!?!?!?!?!?! WTF!!!

 

But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH.  (Just a really mean one.)

Well, don't join then! It's a free country!

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

You sounded really angry though.

 

And I'm still praying for you, Han.

 

Doug

I appreciate you're praying for us still, but I haven't seen the miracle yet.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus! I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job. What is wisdom to the "world" is foolishness to me. I don't value anything more than Jesus, even my own life. You're not supposed to understand me. Jesus said you wouldn't. Christians are supposed to be aliens in a foreign land. We're supposed to be hated and persecuted if we're like Jesus. We were NEVER supposed to get comfy here and fit in with the "world". If you see Christians that fit right in and churches that are no different than Elks lodges and country clubs, it's probably because those are filled with people that are worshipping the wrong Jesus.

 

 

That.....is the most nonsensical shit I've ever seen. And I thought my roommate could be a blabbering jackass when he goes on about Jesus.

How exactly are you not supposed to be comfy with the world because you worship Jesus? The guy preached tolerance and kindness, did he not? Turn the other cheek, etc? Do you actually go out and do that? Do you have that kindess in your heart, or tolerance of others? Probably not. One can imagine the Aztecs, Incans, Druids, Native Americans, and Jews are sitting around in their versions of the afterlife pretty pissed at the moment at the tolerance and kindness of "true believers" of Jesus. Because they were actually persecuted by jackassery like Christianity.

 

 

You know, the 100 million persecuted house church Christians in China don't operate like our churches here. Most of the leadership has been in prison and tortured and suffered for Christ. They don't have time to build buildings and orphanages and hospitals. Most don't even have their own copy of the Bible, so they have to memorize big chunks of it. In many places, they don't even tell each other what time the next meeting is for fear of being infiltrated or arrested. Everybody just prays and and the Holy Spirit says, "Everybody meet at 1am at Wong's house." Those who are being followed by the police are told to go somewhere else. Those who have unrepentented sin in their lives probably don't hear clearly enough to get the message at all. But everybody that GOD wants there shows up at 1am. Five minutes before the police show up, the Holy Spirit says, "RUN!" and they take off. Same stuff happens in Russia and Korea and other places. That's how the Communists have never been able to crush them.

 

 

This is my head, hitting the desk. How about the thousands persecuted in China for simply wanting democracy? Don't they count any more or less than Christians? Oh, wait; I forgot that Christians are obviously more important.

 

 

Oh, and by the way, they don't believe they're persecuted because the government is Communist. They think they are persecuted because JESUS said that is what will ALWAYS happen when you act like Him. And they're pretty sure wherever they go they will be persecuted. I can't find a logic problem there. For about 10 years 100 MILLION Christians in China have been praying that persecution would come to America -- because it would mean that Christians here actually started acting like Christ! Kind of hurts, but I can't find a logic problem with that either.

 

 

Are you the type of person that constantly has to cut yourself to make sure you're suffering? I'm getting a good image of the robed worshippers wacking themselves in the head with their books in Monty Python's Holy Grail.

 

 

That kind of stuff happens all over the world. I know Bible smugglers that used to drive into Russia with cars fully loaded down with Bibles right out in the open and the guards just wouldn't even see them. I know a guy that wanted to start a shelter for teens on the street and prayed and asked God for an empty hospital in Russia and the government sold it to him for $1. Then he prayed and asked for the warehouse next door and got that for $1.

 

 

I know my family used to drive to Illinois and back with trunks full of margarine to smuggle into Wisconsin because of the old laws. Wow, is that ever fucking amazing. God must have wanted poor people to have margarine too!

And obviously, considering the state of Russia's finances, selling buildings for a $1 that probably translates into much more in Russian monetary units, is so very surprising.

 

Look, the main problem here is that people don't get that there is more than one Jesus and the VAST majority of America has made up their own Jesus. There's "Church Growth, Purpose-Driven Jesus" and "Prosperity Gospel Jesus" and "Manifestation Jesus" and "Old Testament Tons of Rules Jesus" and "Seeker Friendly Jesus" and "Sunday and Wednesday Night Only Jesus" and "Earn My Salvation By Doing Stuff Jesus". There's even a fair amount of them that skip Jesus altogether and just worship the Holy Spirit so they can get a buzz (which probably isn't the Holy Spirit at all). But those are all IDOLS. Those are man-made constructs to meet a need or put God in a bite-sized box we feel like we can control. They are gods made by human hands.

 

So, Jesus is actually a hatred-spewing asshat? Now this makes sense.

And I am amused by the idea that people can make up their own gods. Because, you know, the Christian God is so obviously not.

 

 

But there is only ONE True Jesus and the proper response to HIM is to hit your face, cry like a baby, repent for everything you can think of, beg for His mercy and then marvel at His beauty and willingness and the sufficiency of the sacrifice He already made for us. Then you let HIM tell you what to do next. Our salvation is complete, we just need to claim it. We can't make Him love us any more than He already does and we can't earn ANYTHING. Whatever we do, whatever sacrifice, we should do it out of love - not obligation.

 

Again, the books. Yours must be one of those special edition Bibles for the amount of suffering you seem to desire. Thick, heavy binding made from the skin of your enemies' babies.

 

 

 

It seems a lot of you guys are agnostics. You can't quite bring yourselves to be atheists cause you really think there's something out there, but you don't want to believe it has a personal interest in you or might reveal itself somehow to us. You're just the worst kind of fence-sitters. Get a freakin backbone! Stop bashing Christianity and tell me why what you got is working so well for you. Cause all I see is a lot of angry people. If your strategy is better for world peace and your personal joy, then shouldn't it incorporate some aspect of FORGIVENESS? If your "god" or your new paradigm can't even bring YOU peace, then what good is it?

 

 

Sorry, athiest, and fucking proud of it. You want to know why? BECAUSE LIFE IS HARD, SO DEAL WITH IT. Christianity is nothing more than a whiny bitch trying to make boundries in life because they can't deal with reality. Why does being an athiest work well for me? Because I'm not conflicted over Santa Claus not showing up and proving he gives me gifts on the Solstice -- oh, wait. I'm sorry, Mythras's birthday.

My roommate is a WELS Lutheran who was raised by adoptive parents, of whom his father was a pastor. He was fucking inundated with that shit, and has conflict to this day over God, and His reasons; but not Jesus. And you know what, you hypocritical shit? I saved his life. I left my home to spare his life from the gutter because no one, not even his family, would help him out once he lost his apartment. I got us a flat, I worked at a shitty job for eight months to support us, and went through hell because I knew if I didn't have compassion and forgiveness for the mistakes he'd made in his past -- mostly because of bipolar medication making him crazy -- he'd be dead. When you put your ass on the line for someone you've only just met, and follow through as I did, then you can come back and tell me your god is better than my personal deeds.

 

 

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

My boss tried that one on me, which surprised the shit out of me. Do you all have some hotline to the crazies? Oh, wait. 700 Club. Obviously, because Christians have no problem gunning down non-believers and those they don't like, non-Christians must do the same. Your world is sick and demented, kid.

And it's especially sick because my aunt was shot in the head when I was five, by a drug-dealer who was, considering the majority, most likely a Christian himself.

 

 

 

You don't think that could happen in America? It's happening in dozens of other countries. It's coming here too - as soon as enough Christians starting acting like the TRUE Jesus. You don't think you have hate in your heart? Well where did it go? What system have you got to get it out of there? Cause all I see here is insults and unresolved anger and bitterness.

 

 

In America? Land of the fundamentalist Christian majority in power? Now I'm not sure what the hell you're smoking.

 

Why is it all about me defending MY faith? Let's hear you defend yours. If you don't have a better alternative and all you want to do is spend your time bashing, that's a pretty sorry existence. You think you don't have a "faith"? That's a crock. You've created a religion on this site and it's all about how your diverse, confused, contradictory understandings of God and how your bile and anger are the right way to live -- and frankly, I'll admit you're better at sharing your "faith" than most of the "Christians" in this country.

 

 

Don't have a faith. Frankly, I'm happier, and possibly more mentally stable, than you.

And it might be about defending your faith because that was the idea of the post. And because you Christian nutjobs can speak a good line about the unbelievers going to Hell, but never give up any good reasoning or sane responses to any question of why other than "my mythological god-son said so."

 

But don't kid yourselves - this is a CHURCH. (Just a really mean one.)

 

I'm not saying any of this out of any anger or animosity. Just seems like it's worth stating the obvious.

 

 

Which is apparently that you're a sick, demented kid. Yes, you've definitely stated the obvious. Thank you for making me even gladder that I'm an athiest. Between you and my boss, my bile ratio has been reached.

 

(and, edited because quotes won't work.)

[Checkmate]

Furnifixer, if you're still around reading this and not off preaching the gospel with the "Real Christians"™ in China, I have just a FEW words for you.

 

"Bravo!" In one post you have deftly accomplished what MANY EX-C's could not. You have neatly summarized PRECISELY what it is about Xians that we hate! I couldn't have done it better myself. You are to be commended.

 

I also feel sorry for you. Unlike the rest of my compeers, I will not waste one bit of bile on a specimen such as yourself. You aren't worth it.

 

Besides, I know something you don't know. In a few years (months?), you'll back here singing a different tune. You will suffer burn out and become disgusted with your church (as you already ARE) and pissed off at yourself for believing such BS.

 

I KNOW this because the hateful rhetoric you delivered on this site is EXACTLY WHAT I USED TO SAY AND THINK WHEN I WAS YOU!!!!! You've apparently been reading and listening to the same propaganda that I had access to when I was a Xian robot.

 

And THIS is why I pity you. I am fully confident that you have a vestigal brain stem of common sense and reason lurking about. And one day it's going to revive itself and choke that "faith" nonsense into oblivion, and all you'll have left is rage and humiliation at being played for a sucker.

 

And WHEN this happens, this site will still be here to welcome you, and the people will render their sympathies.

 

You MAY have to endure a period of mistrust, but hey! Them's the breaks.

 

Anyway...FF, have fun while the delusion lasts! And keep those hostile polemics coming. The gang here simply LOVES the verbal target practice. Shooting fish in a barrell may NOT be sporting, but it's still loads of fun.

 

Peace!

[dogmatically_challenged]

TK

And WHEN this happens, this site will still be here to welcome you, and the people will render their sympathies.

 

 

I'd welcome anyone who becomes an apostate.

 

Great post TK!

 

Ignore my avatar. I lost a bet.

[Mythra]

But, yep, I'm a fool for Jesus!  I'm a crazy, wild, radical, voices-hearing, fearless, Bible-believing, enemy-loving, nut job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm crossing my fingers for you, Doug. That you may someday escape the prison of mind control and brainwashing.

 

I'm also crossing my fingers for you that in 10 years those voices don't start telling you that your kids are demonic and that you should drown them in the bathtub.

[Vixentrox]

Hmmm...you think Xtians are the only ones persecuted in China? How about the Falun Gong, the Tibetian monks, the students wanting democracy, North Korean defecters, ect. Get of your high Xtian horse. Nothing is being done to Xtians in China that Xtians didn't to other people in the past. I dare say Xtian's are responsible for more deaths than China could ever hope to achieve.

 

My life? My life is WAY better than when I was a Xtian. I used to live in constant fear, self loathing doubt. My knees would get rubbed raw from kneeling in prayer for hours. All that money wasted at collection plates.

The ONLY thing that is worse about my life compared to then is my health and I promise you that prayer and Jesus wouldn't make a damn bit of difference for it.

 

Faith? Better at sharing our faith? We don't have a collective faith here or didn't you notice? Additionally, we know more about the fucking Xtian faith than the majority of Xtians becuase most of us have already BEEN Xtians and found it sorely lacking. Not only that but anyone with even a shred of human decency should outright reject your fucking atrocity commiting, monster god. But I suppose you approve of smashing babies skulls in, drowning babies, human sacrifice, symbolic canibalism, ripping pregnant women open with swords, treachory, and of host of other barbaric things your barbaic god endorsed, personnally carried out, or ordered in the bible.

[Guest samurai_cowboy]

Furnifixer, just out of curiousity, are there any epileptics in your family?

[Ouroboros]

(Furnifixer)

People are being raised from the dead regularly in third world countries - thousands of them.

 

Why?  So they can starve back to death again?

Exactly!

 

God can make THOUSANDS of people rise from the dead (not a small miracle by any measures), but he CAN'T MAKE FOOD so the starving people didn't have to die of hunger in the first place.

 

I guess there's a huge difference between raisins and raisings for God.

 

Btw, doesn't raising someone from the dead go against free will? I mean, you never asked the dead person if he wanted to be brought back when you started to pray for him and raise him up! Shame on you, I thought salvation was a choice and not something you forced people to.

[Checkmate]

Ignore my avatar. I lost a bet.

 

I was wondering what happened.

[Mythra]

Pardon me if I take a time-out and call furnacefixer on his claim that thousands have been raised from the dead in third-world countries. I think I gotta call bullshit. Furnace - why don't you go ahead and give us your sources for this claim. (UPI, Rutgers?) If you don't mind, of course. We just need to do a little check to make sure you're not spouting Sunday School nonsense.

 

(Silence as we wait for the non-response)

[Mythra]

OH WAIT - WAIT!

 

DUH!

 

I know what it was. It was missionaries reporting to the churches as they hit them up for more money. A totally legitimate account of thousands being raised.

 

Missionaries wouldn't stretch the truth in order to get more money.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, Mythra I think it was the letter alright, but it got wet and some words fell out, it was supposed to read:

 

"...we have raised money, 1000s of dollars, to pay for funerals for the dead people..."

 

and the only readable text was

 

"...we have raised ... 1000s of ... dead people..."

 

There you go!

[Mythra]

Hans - you're brilliance and insight never ceases to amaze me.

 

Of course that's what it was.

 

What do you guys call that? Occam's razor?

 

Which is the simpler and more plausible explanation - that thousands of people were raised from the dead, or that some words got blurred out in a letter from Namibia?

 

Elementary, my dear Watson.

[LloydDobler]

Never mind that the mass media in 3rd world countries is the ever-reliable 'word of mouth' method. The miracles always happen to someone else, in the next town over. Never right in front of a reliable witness who can document it.

 

Christians are falling for the largest game of telephone ever played.

 

'omg they raised the dead!'

 

'um, no, they ate raisin bread.'

[BeccasStillSeeking]

Take up on my challenge. Defend your faith with prayers that will change my family's life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah! Defend your faith with prayers that make me hear God finally, after begging for so much as a word for twenty years!

 

(Watch me NOT hold my breath).

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I'll tell you now, you may not think you are, but there is so much hate and bile in your heart that you refuse to let go of, that when the day comes that the government says it's open season on Christians and you can shoot them if you want without any repercussions, I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

 

Doug

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Excuse me? It's Christians that persecute members of other religions in this country, and it is Christians who are trying to take over the government. Please get your head out of your paranoid fantasy. Until your Christian "brothers" stop lobbying the government to legislate out our civil rights, and stop attacking members of other religions physically, verbally, legally and through "protests" of religious services such as Wiccan rituals, you've no right to whine about how Christians in America are persecuted or face some sort of stupid "holocaust". I for one am more worried about what you assholes are going to do to my poor Pagan friends once you've completely seized power!

 

I wouldn't put a bullet in your head, or do a single thing to do you or anyone harm outside of a bit of yelling, because I'm a decent, moral person and always have been. I don't need Jesus for that.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

I'd welcome anyone who becomes an apostate.

 

Great post TK!

 

Ignore my avatar. I lost a bet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

O.o

 

...what did the other guy bet?

[Guest furnifixer]

OK, for starters, I'm not a "kid" in the sense that I'm young. That was a statement tied to the previous parenting example in that one post (everyone seems to have missed that nuance entirely). I don't need your sympathy or patronizing because of my chronology.

 

I'm not some green youth that is falling for any old thing. I have a graduate degree, I have a wife and two kids and own several successful businesses. By all accounts I'm making a difference to the needy in my community, creating good jobs here and supporting micro-lending and human justice projects abroad. I'm even helping save the Amazonian rain forest. I have no history of epilepsy in my family, no blackouts, no addictions, no high doses of medication. Thank you very much for your concern.

 

I am not in the "church" system anymore and haven't been for awhile. I'm not receiving propaganda from them because I know they're pretty much all whacked. In fact, most Sundays I go to a different church and have to sit there and pray that God won't strike them with lightning before I leave. But I'm not under any illusion that they're feeding me truth. Occasionally God leads me to the person(s) there that are actually reflecting God and not churchianity - usually only one or two out of a hundred that seem to get it.

 

I never inferred that Christians were the ONLY ones being persecuted in China - just that they WERE being persecuted in China (which is not debateable). If you think that Christians are not being martyred in any sizeable numbers around the world you are VASTLY mistaken. In fact, there have been more Christians killed for their faith in the last hundred years than in ALL centuries since AD 30 combined. And you think the Catholics in the dark ages killed lots of non-Christians during the crusades? They also killed around 20 MILLION Anabaptists, Waldensians and Mennonites and others who refused to bow to the heirarchy of Rome. Those were Christians who refused to participate in their heresy and murderous ways. Remember, the winner writes the history books. ROME was the one that said they were "heretics" - all that means is that they didn't agree with Rome. They were people insisting against infant baptism and state-controlled religion and indulgences and purgatory and priestly control of congregations and some other similar perfectly reasonable, totally Biblical, non-heretical things.

 

By the way, it should be noted (and can't be argued with any historical honesty) that atheists and atheistic governments have slaughtered FAR more people than has the "church". Russian wiped out 35 million in just Ukraine - mostly Orthodox Christians. In the last 100 years there have been at least 35 incidences of mass martyrdoms of over 100,000 Christians (including eight of over 1 Million). Some estimates say that the Marxist/Communist/Atheist governments in the last hundred years have directly led to the deaths of over 1 Billion people. Better be careful before you throw stones. But before you get all persnickety, the fact is we're ALL stinkers and every system EVER devised by Man results in chaos and death to some degree or another. That's why God is going to put a stop to it all real soon. You could say that end-times mumbo-jumbo, but even the best population scientists say we have until about 2025 before we can't sustain the population. Environmentalists and oil experts say the growing demand in India and China will crush us. By all accounts we're in deep doo-doo real soon whether or not there is a God. (It's just that the Bible predicted it, that's all.)

 

I'm sorry you think I'm angry - I'm not. I'm sorry you think I'm a stupid shill for the church structures - I'm not. In fact, I fully intend to do everything I can to completely flatten them - and believe that is coming soon.

 

Seems nobody seems to get what I'm saying about the multiple Jesus problem. Fair warning, I'm about to quote the Bible. I hope you can skip the attacks on the Bible as "truth" and just accept it at this moment for illustrative purposes only. I'd quote "Walden" for you, but I can't find an applicable passage.

 

Paul chastised the Church of Corinth for accepting too quickly "another Jesus":

 

2 Corinthians 11:4

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

And the Church of Galatia for accepting a "different Gospel":

 

Galatians 1:6-8

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

 

Pretty much right away there were those who entered and tried to twist and pervert and change things for their own purposes. (I don't want to get into a debate about what you think of Paul or something - that's not the point here.)

 

The point is that it is possible - and should be plainly obvious for all to see that the different denominations are worshipping different versions of Jesus. I NEVER said I had it all perfect and was 100% right. Neither do you - and if you say you do you have a pride problem. But BOTH of us are capable of seeing that for there to be this much disagreement in the church (33,000 denominations now!) there HAS TO BE a difference of opinion about who Jesus is.

 

I have a real simple view. If there is a God and He is in charge, then nothing can stand against Him. But if it's of Man it is going to fail. Since the churches are failing miserably, it must be because they are of Man. That should fit real nicely with the contention of most folks here - that they are man-made constructs and fatally flawed. I'm not arguing that we've built something entirely on our own power and a lot of people have been hurt. In fact, I'm apologizing for it very loudly and publicly and spending my own money to get this out in front of people (if you care to read it - Apology To The World).

 

But what if we peeled back all the crap and find that there was something to all of this? That's what I did. And it's about relationship with God, not about structures and systems and programs. Is it possible that you could be thinking you're praying to Jesus, but the picture in your head or the things you have been taught don't really fit Him at all? Sure. So if you put God in a box and you just pull Him out when there is a problem you need fixed or you want to be blessed and you don't get an answer, maybe it's because you made an idol and you're not praying to God at all. It's clear in the Bible (and in my personal experience and that of thousands of others) that God talks to people. So if you don't hear the voice of God answer you, maybe you're not praying to God at all. Maybe you made up something in your head you think is God, but it might as well be a wooden tiki for all the good it's doing you.

 

My contention is simple. Christians are supposed to be ONE BODY. Since we're clearly not acting like it, somebody is worshipping wooden gods or just not obeying - those are the only two choices. I think in America, that's going to turn out to be pretty much just about everybody. All the churches are elevating one person up front who is supposed to be the one that hears from God and he/she tells you what to believe. That's "nicolaitan" (in place of laity) and pretty much not what God wanted us to be doing. This is a ONE-on-ONE relationship. I don't get to default to what someone else tells me. I don't get to give my money to someone else so THEY will take care of the poor and I don't have to get my hands dirty.

 

Now, I get that most of you think I'M also worshipping a wooden god. That's fine. Think what you want. He's real to me and He's proven Himself over and over. And I will most definitely NOT be back here in a year (or more) admitting I was all wrong and I was deluded. Nobody had anything to say about the fasting, eh? Tomorrow is day 4 without food or water. That's just God. My body is physically, chemically, medically incapable of that. I'm taking any pride in it, I'm just pointing out that that is one way that God is real to me. (Of course, I could be making it up - but then you could be lying about being an atheist, too (or agnostic/deist/pagan/druid/trekkie/whatever you are).

 

Frankly, I'm not really here to convince any of you to un-un-convert. I acknowledge that you've been hurt really badly and think it's all a crock. I think it's mostly a crock, too - but not ALL of it. Somewhere under all the pink, fluffy layers of ear-tickling crap there is a kernel of truth. And I think something is coming that is going to expose all of the "system" for what it is. Beyond the fact that the Bible predicts that will happen, I see it beginning.

 

And Han, the Bible says the steps of a righteous man are ordered before him - so when you die to self and it's Christ in you that lives, you give up free will. Go read about Paul, nobody ever asked him if he wanted to go preach the Gospel. Jesus chose him. If you're ordering your own steps, either it's an illusion that you think you're actually in control - or you never really died to self and let God take control.

 

That's probably enough for now. Have at me.

 

Doug

[Mythra]

I bet some of you are coming for me and/or the folks that hurt you. And you'll grin when you put a bullet in their head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whoa, dude. Did the voices in you head tell you this?

 

There is help available, and at this point, I do believe I would advise it. There are medications and psychoanalysis and retreats and group therapy. Trust me. You're there.

 

Nobody here hates you. We feel sorry for you. Seriously.

[Vixentrox]

Didnt the Catholic church make the bible you read? Funny how they got different interruptations.

[Ouroboros]

OK, for starters, I'm not a "kid" in the sense that I'm young. That was a statement tied to the previous parenting example in that one post (everyone seems to have missed that nuance entirely). I don't need your sympathy or patronizing because of my chronology. 

Ok, you’re a kid at heart, accepting fanciful imaginary friends drawn out from your subconscious, and yet behaving as an adult trying to force your opinions on different minded. Sick, just sick.

 

I am not in the "church" system anymore and haven't been for awhile. I'm not receiving propaganda from them because I know they're pretty much all whacked.  In fact, most Sundays I go to a different church and have to sit there and pray that God won't strike them with lightning before I leave. But I'm not under any illusion that they're feeding me truth. Occasionally God leads me to the person(s) there that are actually reflecting God and not churchianity - usually only one or two out of a hundred that seem to get it.

Doesn’t the conflict in the Church prove that something is wrong with the basic dogma and foundation of the religious system you claim to belong too? You damn those who drive a car, but you drive one yourself. (figure of speech)

 

I never inferred that Christians were the ONLY ones being persecuted in China - just that they WERE being persecuted in China (which is not debateable).  If you think that Christians are not being martyred in any sizeable numbers around the world you are VASTLY mistaken.  In fact, there have been more Christians killed for their faith in the last hundred years than in ALL centuries since AD 30 combined.

Jesus Christ and Mary the Jew, that’s bullshit and baloney! Where the heck did you get such an outrageous claim? Where’s the statistics to prove that, and who made it?

 

  And you think the Catholics in the dark ages killed lots of non-Christians during the crusades? They also killed around 20 MILLION Anabaptists, Waldensians and Mennonites and others who refused to bow to the heirarchy of Rome. Those were Christians who refused to participate in their heresy and murderous ways. Remember, the winner writes the history books. ROME was the one that said they were "heretics" - all that means is that they didn't agree with Rome. They were people insisting against infant baptism and state-controlled religion and indulgences and purgatory and priestly control of congregations and some other similar perfectly reasonable, totally Biblical, non-heretical things.

Well then there you have it. Persecution doesn’t prove correctness or truth. I’m glad that you can see that and understand that persecution is not the evidence for the validity of an ideology.

 

skip…

 

Now, I get that most of you think I'M also worshipping a wooden god. That's fine. Think what you want. He's real to me and He's proven Himself over and over. And I will most definitely NOT be back here in a year (or more) admitting I was all wrong and I was deluded.  Nobody had anything to say about the fasting, eh? Tomorrow is day 4 without food or water. That's just God. My body is physically, chemically, medically incapable of that.  I'm taking any pride in it, I'm just pointing out that that is one way that God is real to me. (Of course, I could be making it up - but then you could be lying about being an atheist, too (or agnostic/deist/pagan/druid/trekkie/whatever you are).

? Without water too? Man you’re going in for hell of a ride…

 

And Han, the Bible says the steps of a righteous man are ordered before him - so when you die to self and it's Christ in you that lives, you give up free will. Go read about Paul, nobody ever asked him if he wanted to go preach the Gospel. Jesus chose him.  If you're ordering your own steps, either it's an illusion that you think you're actually in control - or you never really died to self and let God take control.

I did give up my free will when I became Christian. You starting to go down a path you shouldn’t, assuming I wasn’t a Christian, or a True Christian. Do you know how many times I studied and read Paul’s epistles? Or how many meetings, studies or classes I took in Biblical studies? I just wonder, you seem confident that I’m just a little jerk that knows nothing about Christianity, just like SBF assumes. If you start arguing like SBF, you’ll get on my ignore list too.

 

That's probably enough for now.  Have at me. 

 

Doug

It’s not worth it.

[Cerise]

Why are you here Doug? What is your purpose for being here? Obviously it isn't to listen to us. And you must be able to see that your mere opinions aren't going to change any minds. And if you are so caught up on shows of pride, I doubt you are here to brag about your elaborate fasting (although from dialogue so far, I could be wrong about that).

 

Why are you here?