Challenge to Christians.

[mwc]

It's a hard thing to remove ourselves from every equation! Certainly the highest mountain we'll ever climb!  There is ONE Spirit of God, but so often it has to be filtered through all of our own baggage.  God does send one message, but then we often "tweak" in the direction that fits us best.  It's not His goal to "control" as much as to see how well we're willing to listen and obey.

 

Okay, so I'm beginning to understand how this all works. So all people interpret god with their own bias. As such, there is no inerrant word of god as many assert. At best we could simply take a large poll and have the average word of god. The word of god will then change over time depending on the current bias (or baggage) it is being filtered through. The only possible exception to this would be for someone to have absolutely no self. They would be entirely in the will of god (essentially a puppet at this point). There's no way to know how many of these people there are, or have been (xtians assert at least one, Jesus) so the number is so low as to not affect the average word of god.

 

[snipped stuff about my marriage I don't want to speak about since this isn't the proper forum...although I am upset you revealed my wife's name publically as I never have...I forgive you.]

 

spiritually is up to you.  Of course, my belief is that true peace is found only in complete surrender to Jesus Christ and the victory then comes over the forces seeking our destruction.  (But that's just me.)

 

You see, Doug, that's the reason I am here. God/Jesus did not give me any true peace. Non-stop praying for answers that never came was simply torment. I'll let everyone know that I have Tourette's Syndrome (fortunately it isn't the extremely bad cases you see on TV). Try telling a kid that can't control his own thoughts and body movements that things like this are the work of demons (my first symptoms came around the age of 7 and I didn't know it was called Turrette's Syndrome until I was in my early 20's...so demons were the only possible thing it could have been). Have that same kid cling like crazy to the belief that god will help him and the proof will be the removal of the demons and their influence (meaning all my symptoms...and the random demons I starting seeing since they occupied most of my thoughts for years). Pray and pray and pray and pray with no relief. Keep on believing these demons will be removed and your sinful thoughts and actions will go away. Seeing doctors for years taking all sorts of mind fucking drugs thinking that god will help me by leading me to the 'right' treatment. There's other stuff in my life as well but this isn't meant as a testamonial. So here I am. I still have Tourette's but, since I no longer have god, I also no longer have demons. I have a genetic disorder that may or may not be resolved before I die. I don't have to keep praying for random thoughts and actions that are beyond my control (but I still considered sins). Too bad I didn't realize it before the internal and external (real xtians are so understanding) judgements started destroying that little kid 30 years ago. I am truly happy without (the xtian interpretation of) god.

 

MWC, I sincerely want your marriage strong and healthy.  I pray comfort and peace for you both.  Maybe this hard time will be the catalyst that will lead to that. Whether you buy all the stuff in the Bible or not, if you will treat her with unconditional love and respect and utter self-sacrifice, it's highly likely you'll see great improvements in the relationship.

 

Thanks for the sentiment. I gave these things to my wife when I was xtian and continued to do so after I stopped. I do really wish to stop speaking about my marriage though. I did not intend to hijack the thread.

 

mwc

[LloydDobler]

And saying 'something bad is going to happen' is another rumor of war. The bible orders christians to ignore you. I can make the same prediction and tell you that my shoe showed me that 'something really bad is going to happen' 'in the world' in 'this year' and I'll be just as right as you. Will you worship my shoe?

 

Sometime in the next few months Israel is going to give the land back to the Palestinians and pretty much right away God's judgement is going to land on anybody that helped or urged them to do it (that's the USA, in case I'm being too subtle).

 

I'm going to define 'a few months' as 4. Oh hell, make it 5. If this does not happen by the end of 2005, I want you to come back here and eat your words, and confess to being the false prophet you are, and that your faith is dead. Deal?

Where's Furnifuxer? Israel pulled out of the Gaza strip in September. Where the fuck is the 'pretty much right away' wrath of god on our sinful nation?

 

Asshole.

[charley]

This is my first visit to this particular forum, and what amazes me most is the absolutely non-sensical reasoning christians use to butress their beliefs. If the same quality of thought they used here was applied to their everyday life, nothing could get done. I see their mental and emotional response as similar to any animal when defeated and fearful, they lay down and strive to be as meek and unoffensive as possible to whoever is threatening them. In this case it's their idea of god. I think it's high time that people clearly recognize this falling to the knees and fawning on someone elses will to be the disgusting degradation of all that is good in people, instead of being framed as some kind of virtue. These people make a ritual of behaving as if they had just been beaten up, without a hand being laid on them. And their reasoning for this is usually in the following categories :

 

1.) They see the complexity of living creatures and the design and workings of the universe as too complex to occur by accident. And that of course may well be true. What christians do with this observation, though, is fill in a huge amount of blanks left by unanswered questions implyed by that. In doing so they conveniently jump past the following question by assuming that the bible is therefore true and that they have all the information they need from it. That question they never stop to ask themselves is why they are so trusting in this god, when even the most casual of friendships they have had require more face-to-face interaction and personal contact before being regarded as being substantial enough for ongoing dependability for any amount of time in this life, let alone the eternal trust they devote to their god-idea.

My answer to that is their response to the fundamental fascination we all have toward the unknown. We can repond with awe, and inquire with strong minds and hearts. Or, we can cringe in fear like the christians, and seek to make ourselves as meek and unoffensive as possible to whatever is out there. That includes believing that the "great one" exists and that everything he does, says, and thinks is wonderful....because he would surely be insulted and may harm us if we didn't thusly believe...it's safer in the long run to cringe, according to christianity.

 

2.) They have a spiritual experience that transforms them in some way. This is something that is never evaluated as we naturally do any other inner experience; by seeing what it makes us do and say and feel. If they did, they would question why any inner experience would drive them to their knees and apoligize to this panic-derived notion of god they have for being as he created them to be.

 

Perhaps it's due to where I was raised, in the midwest, and how I grew up in school in a social climate where real violence was a real possibility every day, that I have such a radical perspective on things. But now, as a much much older man who has godlessly confronted the death of both of my parents, plus a number of other challenges, any one of which has sent many others to church, I think that true mental and emotional excellence is achieved in concert with cataclysmic terror, not in avoidance of it through faith that the worst imaginable scenarios could not be true, for those who believe.

[Vigile]

 

Very nice post Charley. I look forward to reading more of your contributions.

[All Gods Fail]

I think it's high time that people clearly recognize this falling to the knees and fawning on someone elses will to be the disgusting degradation of all that is good in people, instead of being framed as some kind of virtue. These people make a ritual of behaving as if they had just been beaten up, without a hand being laid on them.

 

Right on, Charley. Fear is the primary motivator in xtianity. Without the threat of hell, the whole thing falls apart.

[Sadie]

I think it's high time that people clearly recognize this falling to the knees and fawning on someone elses will to be the disgusting degradation of all that is good in people, instead of being framed as some kind of virtue. These people make a ritual of behaving as if they had just been beaten up, without a hand being laid on them.

 

Right on, Charley. Fear is the primary motivator in xtianity. Without the threat of hell, the whole thing falls apart.

 

*shakes head* Fear is not the primary motivator in christianity. For SOME people it is but not all people.

[Mythra]

*shakes head* Fear is not the primary motivator in christianity. For SOME people it is but not all people.

 

Uh - yeah - right, Sadie. When you are witnessing about Jesus, the subject of Hell is never mentioned.

 

Girl, we've been there. Way longer than you. You cannot bullshit us like this. If you try, you're gonna get called on it every single time.

[charley]

Hi Sadie -

 

Thank you for your comment ;

 

*shakes head* Fear is not the primary motivator in christianity. For SOME people it is but not all people.

 

I'm going to be blunt.

 

I'm trying to think of an example of what you might mean, and in general all I can think of is that christians aren't fearful as long as they are obidient. Whenever they as much as contemplate stepping out of line, fear reigns them in. That's a fact. That is supported by the additional fact of my never having heard one attempt at conversion or retention that didn't close with the threat of eternal damnation.

You also have to realize that whenever christians make comments like that quoted above, that they are in complete denial of the personal experiences of themselves and others in being christians. That is because there is virtually no self-awareness encouraged in christianity outside of keeping a few rules that they chose to focus on. That makes the first impulse of every christian to be to say what sounds good. For instance, everyone has "nothing against the sinner, but only the sin" but still cannot stay out of anyones business in battles with adult entertainment to homosexuals who merely want to have a legally sanctioned, mutually responsible relationship with each other. Christians feel free to disrupt anyones life as they see fit, ignoring the suggestion to remove the boulder in their own eye before the speck in anothers. And I expect the quick responses of any christian reading this to be that "....that's only some christians, not me..." .....Well, maybe not you today. Since there is so little self-awareness common among you, you can't make such statements responsibly. And, your wonderful church hasn't and does not now reach around the earth by gently respecting the beliefs of others.

[Asimov]

*shakes head* Fear is not the primary motivator in christianity. For SOME people it is but not all people.

 

Alright then, Sadie....why should I be a Christian?

 

You cannot provide argumentation to show that God exists.

You cannot provide argumentation to correlate that the Bible God is the one that exists even if you could show that God exists.

You obviously cannot (due to the limitations of the internet) do miracles.

 

And if Hell isn't a motivating factor, then what's the point? Why should I be a Christian?

 

You have nothing to sell, there's no emotional appeal that you can use that would make me want to be one, there's not rational appeal that you can use that would make me want to convert.

 

So not only is your religion a lie, it's not even a good lie.

[Checkmate]

*shakes head* Fear is not the primary motivator in christianity. For SOME people it is but not all people.

Sadie, WHAT bible are YOU reading? In the Psalms, Proverbs and the Gospels alone, the word FEAR is used 138 times. What follows is just a sampling of how "fear" is used as the "primary motivator".

Ps 2:11 Serve the Lord with FEAR, And rejoice with trembling.

Ps 5:7 But as for me, I will come into Your house in the multitude of Your mercy; In FEAR of You I will worship toward Your holy temple.

Ps 9:20 Put them in FEAR, O Lord, That the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah

Ps 15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is despised, But he honors those who FEAR the Lord; He who swears to his own hurt and does not change;

Ps 19:9 The FEAR of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Ps 22:23 You who FEAR the Lord, praise Him! All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And FEAR Him, all you offspring of Israel!

Ps 22:25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those who FEAR Him.

Ps 25:14 The secret of the Lord is with those who FEAR Him, And He will show them His covenant.

Ps 31:19 Oh, how great is Your goodness, Which You have laid up for those who FEAR You, Which You have prepared for those who trust in You In the presence of the sons of men!

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth FEAR the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who FEAR Him, On those who hope in His mercy,

Ps 34:7 The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who FEAR Him, And delivers them.

Ps 34:9 Oh, FEAR the Lord, you His saints! There is no want to those who FEAR Him.

Ps 34:11 Come, you children, listen to me; I will teach you the FEAR of the Lord.

Ps 40:3 He has put a new song in my mouth-Praise to our God; Many will see it and FEAR, And will trust in the Lord.

Ps 53:5 There they are in great FEAR Where no FEAR was, For God has scattered the bones of him who encamps against you; You have put them to shame, Because God has despised them.

Ps 60:4 You have given a banner to those who FEAR You, That it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah

Ps 61:5 For You, O God, have heard my vows; You have given me the heritage of those who FEAR Your name.

Ps 64:9 All men shall FEAR, And shall declare the work of God; For they shall wisely consider His doing.

Ps 66:16 Come and hear, all you who FEAR God, And I will declare what He has done for my soul.

Ps 67:7 God shall bless us, And all the ends of the earth shall FEAR Him.

Ps 72:5 They shall FEAR You As long as the sun and moon endure, Throughout all generations.

Ps 76:7 You, Yourself, are to be FEARed; And who may stand in Your presence When once You are angry?

Ps 76:8 You caused judgment to be heard from heaven; The earth FEARed and was still,

Ps 76:11 Make vows to the Lord your God, and pay them; Let all who are around Him bring presents to Him who ought to be FEARed.

Ps 78:33 Therefore their days He consumed in futility, And their years in FEAR.

Ps 85:9 Surely His salvation is near to those who FEAR Him, That glory may dwell in our land.

Ps 86:11 Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to FEAR Your name.

Ps 89:7 God is greatly to be FEARed in the assembly of the saints, And to be held in reverence by all those around Him.

Ps 90:11 Who knows the power of Your anger? For as the FEAR of You, so is Your wrath.

Ps 96:4 For the Lord is great and greatly to be praised; He is to be FEARed above all gods.

Ps 102:15 So the nations shall FEAR the name of the Lord, And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Ps 103:11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who FEAR Him;

Ps 103:13 As a father pities his children, So the Lord pities those who FEAR Him.

Ps 103:17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting On those who FEAR Him, And His righteousness to children's children,

Ps 111:5 He has given food to those who FEAR Him; He will ever be mindful of His covenant.

Ps 111:10 The FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

Ps 112:1 Praise the Lord! Blessed is the man who FEARs the Lord, Who delights greatly in His commandments.

Ps 115:11 You who FEAR the Lord, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield.

Ps 115:13 He will bless those who FEAR the Lord, Both small and great.

Ps 118:4 Let those who FEAR the Lord now say, "His mercy endures forever."

Ps 119:38 Establish Your word to Your servant, Who is devoted to FEARing You.

Ps 119:63 I am a companion of all who FEAR You, And of those who keep Your precepts.

Ps 119:74 Those who FEAR You will be glad when they see me, Because I have hoped in Your word.

Ps 119:79 Let those who FEAR You turn to me, Those who know Your testimonies.

Pr 1:7 The FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pr 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the FEAR of the Lord,

Pr 2:5 Then you will understand the FEAR of the Lord, And find the knowledge of God.

Pr 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; FEAR the Lord and depart from evil.

Pr 8:13 The FEAR of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate.

Pr 9:10 "The FEAR of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Pr 10:27 The FEAR of the Lord prolongs days, But the years of the wicked will be shortened.

Pr 14:2 He who walks in his uprightness FEARs the Lord, But he who is perverse in his ways despises Him.

Pr 14:26 In the FEAR of the Lord there is strong confidence, And His children will have a place of refuge.

Pr 14:27 The FEAR of the Lord is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death.

Pr 15:16 Better is a little with the FEAR of the Lord, Than great treasure with trouble.

Pr 15:33 The FEAR of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility.

Pr 16:6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the FEAR of the Lord one departs from evil.

Pr 19:23 The FEAR of the Lord leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil.

Pr 22:4 By humility and the FEAR of the Lord Are riches and honor and life.

Pr 23:17 Do not let your heart envy sinners, But be zealous for the FEAR of the Lord all the day;

Pr 24:21 My son, FEAR the Lord and the king; Do not associate with those given to change;

 

(and to deliver the killing stroke) In the New Testament, Jesus says :

 

Mt 10:28 "And do not FEAR those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather FEAR Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Now, tell me, once again (try to keep a straight face), how FEAR is NOT a "primary motivator" for Christians. And don't waste time hiding behind the "but that's Old Testament law" hustle. The Psalms and Proverbs can't in ANY way be construed as The Law. Either it is ALL the "Word of God", or it is NOT.

[SkepticOfBible]

 

Sadie, WHAT bible are YOU reading? In the Psalms, Proverbs and the Gospels alone, the word FEAR is used 138 times. What follows is just a sampling of how "fear" is used as the .......

(and to deliver the killing stroke) In the New Testament, Jesus says :

 

Mt 10:28 "And do not FEAR those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather FEAR Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/color]

 

 

 

The book of hebrew is a good example where fear is very consistent message

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/hebrews.htm

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/feartactic.htm