Challenge to Christians.

[Guest Priapus]

Pretty much what TK421 said.

[Guest Tom]

There is no sincerity in your words Tom, you were on the offense before you even posted.  Then you make baseless accusations about us without even having bothered to read the testimonies section.  You don't deserve respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Re-reading what I wrote. I have to agree with you. I often say things as if they are facts when really it is just thoughts that I have. The definitive statements that I made are out of line and I apologize. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[Guest Tom]

I never knew if the choices I made pleased God or were in His will. Did something go wrong because I was acting contrary to His will? Was it because I holding some secret unconfessed sin? The scriptures are full of stories telling how God withheld his blessing from one who had strayed. And even then, I never really knew if any good deals I got were God's blessing or just the garden variety accidental good fortune that came to anyone, believers or otherwise.

 

I wanted to be guided by the Holy Spirit, not my own will. I prayed constantly for some direction that I was making "Godly" choices for me and my family. I was always confessing and sometimes not even certain if what I'd done was a sin or not. I'd ask the Holy Spirit to convict me but nothing. It was as though I had the phone but nobody was on the other end of the line. That, plus no discernable answer to any prayers for anything, no matter how trivial.

 

Sure, I get the whole "unconditional love" part. But is that love completely undemonstrated? I mean, beyond the whole legend of "giving his only son" and even that was for redemption after I die. I've never communicated with the dead so I don't know if it's true or not. I don't fawn all over my kids with boundless attention, but neither do I leave them completely on their own, never giving them any sign of my presence. That'd be cruel.

 

If I told you I loved you, but then you never saw or heard from me, nor saw anything tangible to demonstrate that love in any but the most academic sense, would it have any value to you? Would you have any reason at all to love me back?

 

Nobody should debate you on what you believe. Beliefs are, by their nature, beyond debate. I merely put forth that I tried your program and found it utterly hollow. If it brings you peace, joy, and comfort then I'm happy for you.

And take care on this one:

But reading your posts, it seems you really don't know Him well enough to know if He is real or not. You have been side tracked into juddging Him on the basis of some who claim to know Him.

 

While there have been many wonderful things done in the name of Christ, there have, and are still are, been many terrible things done in His name. I believe you have been terribly treated by the 'church' and some weirdos. For that I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

 

The old, "You were an inadequate Christian and/or were deceived" argument invalidates what many of us said. No church, kooks, or "weirdos" ever mistreated me in a churchful way. It's just that after the prayer and worship and all, nothing happened. It yielded no tangible difference in my life beyond the abstract knowledge that invisible, silent God Loved me and, I suppose, I'd be treated, after death, to spending eternity in his silent, invisible presence. It just wasn't very compelling, especially when it came at the cost of thousands of dollars in donations and 1/2 of every Sunday I could have been riding my bike or playing with my kids.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HI

Thanks for the kind response. As to your last comment, I have been well reprimanded for my leap to judgement. I'm sorry for lumping everyone into a presumptive basket of mine.

 

The way I see some of the issues that you raise may be different from most. The concept of my choices pleasing God is not one that I deal with. It does come back to the unconditional love thing. He loves me, not my choices. As long as I have the desire to be honest and open before Him, He will lead me into the choices that are to be made. And if I make a wrong choice, He still accepts me and deals with me. You have children that you obviously love. If one of them has the attitude that they want to please you in their decisions. And they make the best decision they can. What is your response to them? Do you punish them? Make their life harder? I think the Father is the best Father and much better than I.

 

Yes troubles will come our way, but we do not cause them to come because of displeasing God. Jesus said that in this world we will have tribulation. It is not the perfect world that He desires. It is the product of sin. And terrible things happen to very good people.

 

I would think that a person who writes with the grace and compassion for other people that you do, knows what Godly decisions are. And my feeling is that you have a very high batting average with God. Not to say you haven't made a few collosal blunders like all of us.

 

Thanks again for the kind words and the gentle reproof. By the way, will you share with me the meaning of your screen name. Iprobably won't like it but am curious.

Tom

[Guest Tom]

I think it’s amazing you had these experiences and miracles, but without discrediting them, I wonder why God chooses who will receive the miracles randomly. It’s only based on chance if you get it or not, and that won’t really help everyone to believe. And another question I have is that if you are so sure about God’s miraculous healing powers, why you don’t have a job in a fulltime healing ministry?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hi Han,

 

I don't know if God's healing is random or based on chance. I think God has a plan it is not based onchance. I have had several physical problems that were healed by conventional surgery. One situation could only be fixed by one man, Dr. George Webster at the Duke Medial Center. Why didn't God heal me miraculously? No idea. But that doesn't mean He doesn't love me or you or anyone.

 

Oh yeah, I am not in the ministry because God has not lead me that way. All though I would love to be and am very frustrated when I would rather be elsewhere. But also being in the work world gives me opportunities that ministers don't get. For example, a few years ago I walked by the office of a friend on mine named John. John had been traveling and I did not think he was due back. He looked miserable. I went in and asked him how he was doing. He said not good. While in Toledo he went to the men's room and passed urine the consistency and color of apple cider. Then every time after he passed blood red. He was waiting to go to the doctor's in a few minutes. We prayed, John never passed any funky urine again. The doctor ran a complete series of test including cathaterizing(?) him. (Ouch!) He found no problems.

 

Coincidence, anomoly(?) or God. We will never know. But I got a thrill that I would not have gotten in some stuffy church office all alone.

 

Tom

 

Tom

[Guest Priapus]

I've been scared to ask that but wondered myself! However, when I look at his avatar then screen name   I believe the "i" makes the long sound and the name has 3 syllables.

 

Hey Pri, was I right?  Or is that name that of Roman/Greek character.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

All you need to know about Priapus.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Priapus.html

 

 

As to Tom:

 

The way I see some of the issues that you raise may be different from most. The concept of my choices pleasing God is not one that I deal with. It does come back to the unconditional love thing. He loves me, not my choices. As long as I have the desire to be honest and open before Him, He will lead me into the choices that are to be made. And if I make a wrong choice, He still accepts me and deals with me. You have children that you obviously love. If one of them has the attitude that they want to please you in their decisions. And they make the best decision they can. What is your response to them? Do you punish them? Make their life harder? I think the Father is the best Father and much better than I.

 

This was not my experience.

[Guest Tom]

All you need to know about Priapus.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Priapus.html

As to Tom:

This was not my experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Is experience Truth? I have never been to the moon. Therefore the truth must be that men don't go to the moon.

This example may be extreme but I think it supports my question.

 

If we believe that we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. then what comes first, truth or freedom. truth must. If I limit my truth to my experience then i will never change, grow, or experience newness or be free.

[Guest Tom]

I was right. I am sorry I asked about Priapus

 

See ya

[Guest Tom]

Hi TK421,

This is great. You've really gone to great lengths to document your concerns. It will take one very long post to give you my response to all of this so if you don't mind I will break it down into 3 or 4 digestable pieces. OK?

 

On the Luke 7 passage: What Jesus said is right and taken by itself it may cause some anxiety. But can we look at a couple of things. First look at what these guys were claiming as their right of relationship. They claimed power stuff -prophesy, deliverance, miracles. While they used the name of Jesus for ego building they never engaged into a loving relationship. The point is made mor complete when we look at a fuller passage further up in Matthew25-46; This is it in the New Living Translation

 

"All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

 

Then the King will say to those on the right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'

 

"Then these righteous ones will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?'

 

And the King will tell them, 'I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!'

 

"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons! For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me anything to drink. I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'

 

"Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?'

 

And he will answer, 'I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.'

 

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

 

From this you can see what kind or a person a Christian is supposed to be. Loving, caring, giving, self sacrificing. These are the qualities of being a Christian. Not the arrogance and self gratification we see so prevalent in the church here today.

 

I want to preempt an argument in that if yousay something like "that wasn't my experience". the issue is not your experience but is God loving. I want to serve a God who rewards the loving and giving people.

 

In the Luke 19:27 passage. The reference there to a king does not refer to God. He is speaking a parable and a parable by definition teaches only one truth and since this passage is intrduced in verce 11 with "The crowd was listening to everything Jesus said. And because he was nearing Jerusalem, he told a story to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away."

The purpose of the parable was that the Kingdom of God was to be delayed. Many people, pastors and Bible teachers, get into poor teaching when they go away from the main prupose of the parable. The statement the king makes in verse 27 is just the typical attitude an earthly king would have and just part of the story. Not the point of the story.

 

 

More to come if you want. The Romans passage is particularly hairy!

 

Thanks

[Guest Tom]

(Thankful)

 

(Clandestiny)

 

Okay, let me rephrase: The word sin in Greek meant to “miss the mark”. It’s an archery term. Aim for the Bulls Eye -> miss -> bam you’ve “sinned”.

 

I just researched that a bit and, as far as I've found, "sin" isn't an archery term. It's actually a mathematical term.

 

  1. The ordinate of the endpoint of an arc of a unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system, the arc being of length x and measured counterclockwise from the point (1, 0) if x is positive or clockwise if x is negative.

  2. In a right triangle, the ratio of the length of the side opposite an acute angle to the length of the hypotenuse.

 

Oh yeah, and it's the 21st letter of the Hebrew alphabet too.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi,

Just a little clarification here. The word sin is an old english term from archery and it does mean (to the old english) that one has not struck the target. The greek work 'harmatia' which is translated sin also means to miss the mark. so you can see why the King James guys translated the word 'hamartia' to sin and how it entered our lexicon.

[Abiyoyo]

I challenge you, Christians, to prove to me why your beliefs are so much better than those of the ancient Greeks, the Romans, the Jews, the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Druids, and all the rest of humanity in its many forms.

 

What makes your religion so special? Every religion in the world has some sort of godman who did great works and was a sacrifice for some greater good. Every religion has very clear concepts of right and wrong, of good and evil.

 

Prove to me how your beliefs are valid. Show me where your God has intervened in your life when you called him by name. Where he made himself known as something more than a slight "push" that can be easily mistaken for a strong wind.

 

You claim to have a monopoly on the truth. I challenge you to defend it.

 

I am the very least of the unbelievers here. Better to respond to my challenge intelligently before you go after the big guys here.

 

Go on. Take a swing at it. If you are as comfortable and knowledgable in your beliefs as you say you are, then you have very little to fear from me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The key of David. Something that many churches dont speak of, including mine.

 

Rev 3:7

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

(KJV)

 

 

 

 

As far as a sign from the Heavens, I have Jonah.

 

Luke 11:29-30

29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, "This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.

30 "For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.

(NKJ)

 

Matt 12:41

41 "The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

(NKJ)

 

Jonah 4:4

4 Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?

(KJV)

 

Jonah 4:9

9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

(KJV)

 

Jonah 4:10-11

10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:

11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

(KJV)

[Penny1]

I do not understand your comment about having anxiety about pleasing God.  How can you be ansious about pleasing someone who loves you?  When someone loves you there is not earning of relationship.  The relationship is.  It is because of the love.  If I were to say I love you, would that be conditional?  If I love you and you did something evil would I stop loving you?  That is not love and not the relationship that God offers (at least the way I read the Bible) 

Also sorry about the spelling.  Would you judge me on that basis.  Not thinking that perhaps I had to go to work and did not look for errors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, you wouldn't love him, that would be gay, and you're cured of all that.

[Guest furnifixer]

I'm done with religion. I'm done with systems of Man. I'm done with programs and plans and building committees and church growth seminars. I spent too many years in that stuff with someone preaching the "priesthood of the believer" and then setting themselves as priests between me and God. No more!

 

I just wanted Jesus. I was desperate for more Jesus. I laid everything down and offered my everything to Him - but I HAD to get more than I was getting in "church". He always likes when you do that.

 

And then I found Him and He's real. I prayed to see the world through His eyes and I got a big double helping of that and it wrecked me. I used to have a one-sided prayer life, but now I talk to Him all the time and He tells me stuff. You know, that stuff in Acts about miracles and healings and demons is real and it's for today. The gifts it talks about are for us and they're for real. My church never told me that when I was growing up. I've seen stuff I didn't think possible. I've watched people get healed. My wife was instantly cured of years of dependence on anti-depressants. I've talked to sincere, believable people that travel the world and see things we can't even imagine in the USA. I've met people that are sincere and true and fearless and so full of Jesus that you can see it flying out of them. And hardly any of them are in "church". There's not a single day that goes by now that I don't see God move in some miraculous way.

 

You see, the whole thing is about RELATIONSHIP, not about sitting in a pew or tithing or doing good stuff or avoiding bad stuff. Jesus wants to love us and for us to love Him back - which we do by showing Him that the same stuff that breaks His heart breaks ours too - you know, that stuff about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and caring for orphans and prisoners and widows, that stuff. He's real and I've seen Him. And the transformation in my life is evidence of it. I have peace and joy and victory. If God wants something done, I do it. If it's beyond my means He sends people to help or sends money to pay for it. If we're unsure about something, two or three of us pray and we all hear the same thing. I know people that can look into your heart and tell you what's hiding in there that you refuse to let go of or what stands between you and God. THAT'S what church is supposed to be! A place you go where folks can help you kill pieces of yourself so Christ in you can live!

 

I will never again let anything come between me and God. Not religious systems, not pastors, not money, not lust, not suffering, not anything. I would rather die than live a day without hearing His voice. In fact, my prayer is that the VERY SECOND I'm done with whatever He has for me to do, someone would take me out so I can go be with Jesus. Sounds crazy, don't it? Good. Jesus said you would think that.

 

So folks, what's it going to take? What would PROVE that the God of the Bible was alive and well and wants YOU as His own? Healings? Miracles? Unexplainable answered prayers? Prophecy? Knowledge? People raised from the dead? Amputees regrowing limbs? People paralyzed walking again? Healing AIDS? What is it going to take? Gonna need to see Him yourself? How jaded are you? How desperate to make up an excuse for everything that looks like it might be God?

 

What about all the prophecy in the Old Testament that was already fulfilled, but written hundreds of years earlier? What if all that stuff in Revelation and Ezekiel and Daniel and stuff started happening? Rise of a one-world church, one-world government, revived Roman empire, everybody gets a mark, plagues, stars falling, etc. You know, that stuff where 2/3 of the world dies in just a span of a few years. Wouldn't that be worth something toward thinking there might be something to this? Maybe it'd be nice if you kind of picked a side before all that really hit the fan.

 

Hey, I grieve at the testimonies I read on here. I was a part of the "religious system" for a long time. And sincerely, with all my heart, I'm sorry for the damage it did to so many. In fact, on this site you probably only see the tiniest little sliver of how much blood is really on our heads for the mess we've made. You're just hearing from the rich Americans with computers, not the BILLIONS that starved to death because we just HAD to have a new gym and a jumbotron.

 

Anyway, I've squared all that up with God after much repenting, but I'm telling you publicly - I'm sorry. You're right. This whole organized religion thing is whacked. But you need to understand, we pretty much did all that out of greed and selfishness and power and fear. That's not at all what Jesus wanted. It's not HIS fault we made such a mess. So please don't be mad at Him. If there really is a battle between Good and Evil - you pretty much gotta hand it to Evil for twisting the "church" up in knots for about two millenia. But there's always been some that didn't fall for the institutional line - and mostly were martyred for it. See, I'm saying stuff that's going to get me killed one day. Probably not by you guys - I expect it to come from the "church". That's what happened to Jesus, too. The prostitutes and tax collectors and fisherman didn't crucify Him - it was the Pharisees.

 

I'll try to hang around if someone wants to have at me. I don't intend to just be a drive-by.

 

Doug

[Cerise]

Doug, I only wanted one thing from God. I asked him with all my heart not to let me lose my faith.

 

Can you guess what happened?

 

You are just going to have to accept something....it is not lack of anything on my part that I am not christian, but the resounding silence on an un-caring god. Do you doubt that if such a being existed and really truly wished me to be at his side that I would be anywhere else?

 

We are the abandoned children. We are the forgotten ones. Do you think you can chide us for the sins of your god? Place his abandonement on our shoulders?

 

You sicken me.

[Guest furnifixer]

Wow. That was fast.

 

Well, I certainly never meant to "sicken you" and I wasn't taking potshots at anybody. The thread author asked me about MY faith and I answered.

 

I'm not sure how I "chided you for the sins of my God." I expect to be misunderstood, so that doesn't bother me, but I really didn't set out to chide you, I am sincerely asking a question. Would someone please tell me what would definitively prove God to you personally? And if it happened would you really be willing to see it for what it was or rationalize it away? Is there ANY point in having this conversation at ALL or are you already so hardened that it's pointless? Cause if there is nobody here that is going to change their mind about anything, I hardly see that this is a good use of anyone's time.

 

Well, Cerise, I don't know what God has planned for you, but since you're still typing, it should be evident to all that you're still breathing and maybe that God might not be done with you yet. He's not really on our time-table. I know that you feel your faith was lost, but I guess we really won't know if it was lost for good until you take your last breath. (Which I hope isn't anytime soon.)

 

I know people that tried to commit suicide bunches of times in big dramatic ways and angels kept saving them. I know a guy that hung himself in prison and was dead for fifteen minutes but survived miraculously by the hand of God. I know people that walked away from devastatingly bad head-on collisions that can only be explained by divine intervention. And these people didn't even know Jesus yet at that point in their life. God had a plan for them, but some suffered many years in the "wilderness" alone and depressed until it was the right time for Him to call them into the battle. Do I understand all the reasons for that? No. But this is a war and sometimes you hide your best weapons until the time is right.

 

The "churches" are not what God designed, they are what WE built. I think something completely new is coming and it's going to fundamentally change the way we understand and relate to God. And it won't look like "church" as we know it at all.

 

Doug

[Ouroboros]

I'm done with religion. I'm done with systems of Man. I'm done with programs and plans and building committees and church growth seminars.  I spent too many years in that stuff with someone preaching the "priesthood of the believer" and then setting themselves as priests between me and God. No more!

So why continue with it?

 

I just wanted Jesus. I was desperate for more Jesus.  I laid everything down and offered my everything to Him - but I HAD to get more than I was getting in "church".  He always likes when you do that.

“He always likes when you do that.” That sounds spooky. Almost like the abused wife excusing her husband for demanding her to bring him the slippers and the newspaper!

 

And then I found Him and He's real. I prayed to see the world through His eyes and I got a big double helping of that and it wrecked me. I used to have a one-sided prayer life, but now I talk to Him all the time and He tells me stuff. You know, that stuff in Acts about miracles and healings and demons is real and it's for today.  The gifts it talks about are for us and they're for real. My church never told me that when I was growing up.  I've seen stuff I didn't think possible. I've watched people get healed. My wife was instantly cured of years of dependence on anti-depressants. I've talked to sincere, believable people that travel the world and see things we can't even imagine in the USA. I've met people that are sincere and true and fearless and so full of Jesus that you can see it flying out of them. And hardly any of them are in "church".  There's not a single day that goes by now that I don't see God move in some miraculous way.

Wait a minute! Are you a minister? In service, traveling and healing people?

 

You see, the whole thing is about RELATIONSHIP, not about sitting in a pew or tithing or doing good stuff or avoiding bad stuff.  Jesus wants to love us and for us to love Him back - which we do by showing Him that the same stuff that breaks His heart breaks ours too - you know, that stuff about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and caring for orphans and prisoners and widows, that stuff.  He's real and I've seen Him. And the transformation in my life is evidence of it.  I have peace and joy and victory. If God wants something done, I do it. If it's beyond my means He sends people to help or sends money to pay for it. If we're unsure about something, two or three of us pray and we all hear the same thing. I know people that can look into your heart and tell you what's hiding in there that you refuse to let go of or what stands between you and God.  THAT'S what church is supposed to be!  A place you go where folks can help you kill pieces of yourself so Christ in you can live!

I have a wonderful RELATIONSHIP with REAL people, and it’s 10,000 times better than the relationship you can have with a fictitious person. A relationship with Santa Claus won’t give you more Christmas presents!

 

Ok, I have a prayer request. God knows what it is, and I want you and your friends to gather as soon as possible and pray for my family. I’ll be here waiting and tell you if the miracle happens. If it does, I will convert back and receive Jesus again, in 0.1 seconds. Do you take up on my challenge? Do you trust me to be honest with you, to tell you, if the miracle happens?

 

I will never again let anything come between me and God. Not religious systems, not pastors, not money, not lust, not suffering, not anything.  I would rather die than live a day without hearing His voice.  In fact, my prayer is that the VERY SECOND I'm done with whatever He has for me to do, someone would take me out so I can go be with Jesus.  Sounds crazy, don't it?  Good.  Jesus said you would think that.

You believe in the God that is described in the Bible, therefore you belong to a structured system and an organized religion, just by the fact you follow a given book, and not your own beliefs. Give up the book, or you are a religious person.

 

Take up my challenge!

 

So folks, what's it going to take? What would PROVE that the God of the Bible was alive and well and wants YOU as His own?  Healings?  Miracles?  Unexplainable answered prayers?  Prophecy? Knowledge? People raised from the dead?  Amputees regrowing limbs?  People paralyzed walking again?  Healing AIDS? What is it going to take?  Gonna need to see Him yourself?  How jaded are you?  How desperate to make up an excuse for everything that looks like it might be God?

You want to prove God to me? Take up my challenge! We need a miracle, and God knows what. He has known it for 9 years, and 10,000-20,000 people over the whole world prayed for us, and we’re still waiting…

 

I implore you! Do it! Take up my challenge!

 

What about all the prophecy in the Old Testament that was already fulfilled, but written hundreds of years earlier?  What if all that stuff in Revelation and Ezekiel and Daniel and stuff started happening?  Rise of a one-world church, one-world government, revived Roman empire, everybody gets a mark, plagues, stars falling, etc.  You know, that stuff where 2/3 of the world dies in just a span of a few years.  Wouldn't that be worth something toward thinking there might be something to this?   Maybe it'd be nice if you kind of picked a side before all that really hit the fan.

 

Hey, I grieve at the testimonies I read on here. I was a part of the "religious system" for a long time. And sincerely, with all my heart, I'm sorry for the damage it did to so many.  In fact, on this site you probably only see the tiniest little sliver of how much blood is really on our heads for the mess we've made.  You're just hearing from the rich Americans with computers, not the BILLIONS that starved to death because we just HAD to have a new gym and a jumbotron. 

 

Anyway, I've squared all that up with God after much repenting, but I'm telling you publicly - I'm sorry. You're right. This whole organized religion thing is whacked.  But you need to understand, we pretty much did all that out of greed and selfishness and power and fear.  That's not at all what Jesus wanted.  It's not HIS fault we made such a mess.  So please don't be mad at Him.  If there really is a battle between Good and Evil - you pretty much gotta hand it to Evil for twisting the "church" up in knots for about two millenia.  But there's always been some that didn't fall for the institutional line - and mostly were martyred for it.  See, I'm saying stuff that's going to get me killed one day. Probably not by you guys - I expect it to come from the "church". That's what happened to Jesus, too.  The prostitutes and tax collectors and fisherman didn't crucify Him - it was the Pharisees.

Actually according to your Bible it was the Romans that crucified Jesus, but I guess you mean who instigated the false allocations against him forcing the Romans to crucify him, and the people that shouted “His blood is on our hands” where fishermen, tax collectors and the rest of the people. It’s just a detail, because I feel picky at the moment.

 

I’m not going to comment you end time comparison for now, that’s a later issue.

 

I'll try to hang around if someone wants to have at me. I don't intend to just be a drive-by.

 

Doug

Start you prayer chain. I’m waiting…

 

And I really mean it, I DO WANT THE MIRACLE!

 

This is your hardest challenge ever, and I give you the chance to defend your faith with true miraculous events. So do it!

[Ouroboros]

Wow. That was fast.

 

Well, I certainly never meant to "sicken you" and I wasn't taking potshots at anybody. The thread author asked me about MY faith and I answered.

 

I'm not sure how I "chided you for the sins of my God."  I expect to be misunderstood, so that doesn't bother me, but I really didn't set out to chide you, I am sincerely asking a question.  Would someone please tell me what would definitively prove God to you personally?  And if it happened would you really be willing to see it for what it was or rationalize it away?  Is there ANY point in having this conversation at ALL or are you already so hardened that it's pointless?  Cause if there is nobody here that is going to change their mind about anything, I hardly see that this is a good use of anyone's time.

 

Well, Cerise, I don't know what God has planned for you, but since you're still typing, it should be evident to all that you're still breathing and maybe that God might not be done with you yet. He's not really on our time-table. I know that you feel your faith was lost, but I guess we really won't know if it was lost for good until you take your last breath.  (Which I hope isn't anytime soon.) 

 

I know people that tried to commit suicide bunches of times in big dramatic ways and angels kept saving them. I know a guy that hung himself in prison and was dead for fifteen minutes but survived miraculously by the hand of God. I know people that walked away from devastatingly bad head-on collisions that can only be explained by divine intervention.  And these people didn't even know Jesus yet at that point in their life. God had a plan for them, but some suffered many years in the "wilderness" alone and depressed until it was the right time for Him to call them into the battle.  Do I understand all the reasons for that? No. But this is a war and sometimes you hide your best weapons until the time is right. 

 

The "churches" are not what God designed, they are what WE built.  I think something completely new is coming and it's going to fundamentally change the way we understand and relate to God.  And it won't look like "church" as we know it at all.

 

Doug

Take up on my challenge. Defend your faith with prayers that will change my family's life.

[Vixentrox]

I know people that tried to commit suicide bunches of times in big dramatic ways and angels kept saving them. I know a guy that hung himself in prison and was dead for fifteen minutes but survived miraculously by the hand of God. I know people that walked away from devastatingly bad head-on collisions that can only be explained by divine intervention.  And these people didn't even know Jesus yet at that point in their life. God had a plan for them, but some suffered many years in the "wilderness" alone and depressed until it was the right time for Him to call them into the battle.  Do I understand all the reasons for that? No. But this is a war and sometimes you hide your best weapons until the time is right. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So....god untied this suicider from his rope? Or was it a man that did it and managed to revive the person through science and medicine?

 

So, the Satan worshiper that has blasphemed the holy spirt or a Muslim that survives a serious accident unscathed were saved by your god...or was it lord Satan and Allah (who really is the Xtian god anyway).

 

What you call devine intervention I call chance. For every nearth death escape thier is a church bus going off a cliff, a church burning down, or Xtians being killed in very ordinary ways. Thier god didn't save them at all.

[Checkmate]

Hmm...Here we go again!

 

Hello, Furnifixer.

 

"What would it take for me to believe?" Well, I must agree with Han on this one. A VERIFIABLE BONAFIDE, NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER MIRACLE would do the trick.

 

Don't tell me about "depression" being "cured". I can't SEE depression being cured.

 

In your bible, Jesus told a crippled man that his sins were forgiven. (I'm sure you're familiar with the story. If not, then I'm wasting my breath with a novice who can't help us.) When the people balked at his audacity, he then did a miracle that COULD NOT BE DOUBTED AND THUS VALIDATED HIS WORD.

 

The story says he caused this man crippled FROM BIRTH to rise up and walk.

 

No faking possible there. I'm sorry, but it is possible for depression to return. Maybe the person is going through a manic phase and just SEEMS cured. How can I possibly know for sure?

 

But healed bones, recovered sight; such things CANNOT be denied.

 

I'm always amazed how Benny Hinn and the rest of your miracle believing crowd have never cleared out any intensive care wards of cancer victims, AIDS patients, the blind and the quadrapalegic. Why is that, do you suppose?

 

Not enough money involved, I say. I've noticed that "miracles" seem to work best on stage, with an offering plate working the crowd.

 

I'm wrong? Then prove it. Take HanSolo's challenge. (And DON'T ask what he needs prayer for! This is a "double-blind" test, if you will.)

[Vixentrox]

So, I have this problem. You don't need to know what it is but supposedly your god does. Get two of you Xtians together and pray to fix this problem. After all "Where two or more are gathered in my name...." Well, I'm sure you know the verse. Start praying. Change god's mind or persuade him to act in some way. Go on...or don't you think your feeble gods and your feeble prayers have power? Maybe you could save my soul if you pray hard enough, go on...get on your knees...........I'm waiting.

[Vixentrox]

It's been a minute...maybe your god needs more time to work his magic. He doesn't really need to wait for you to actually see this and you pray since he already knows what your going to do so he could pre-empt your prayer. I'm waiting!

[Vixentrox]

My problem isn't fixed yet. I'll check back later. Maybe god has an excessive backlog of prayers to handle right now.

[Checkmate]

Oh, wait! We forgot! Jesus/God CAN'T do mighty miracles for those who don't believe!

 

I suppose we're fucked then. Our unbelief is more powerful than "almighty god"!

[Guest furnifixer]

So why continue with it?

 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Jesus is a person who I want to know more about and learn to love more every day. The Bible is one of the ways that I learn more about Him. But that's about relationship, not about systems and structures and denominations and "organized religion". We have a linguistics problem because you take "religion" to mean faith in a God. I mean it as a man-made system that often confused and befuddles the true point of relationship. The same with "church" - people take that to mean the local congregation and/or it's building, but the true Body of Christ is something that transcends that and can't be contained by Man.

 

“He always likes when you do that.” That sounds spooky. Almost like the abused wife excusing her husband for demanding her to bring him the slippers and the newspaper!

 

Can't help sounding spooky. Evidently, according to some here, I spend a lot of time talking to invisible friends who are entirely made up in my own mind. Pretty much ought to sound spooky, dontcha think?

 

Wait a minute! Are you a minister? In service, traveling and healing people?

I have a wonderful RELATIONSHIP with REAL people, and it’s 10,000 times better than the relationship you can have with a fictitious person. A relationship with Santa Claus won’t give you more Christmas presents!

 

I'm just a businessman saying things people think are weird. I'm not on anybody's payroll. However, as all Christians should be, I am in "service" and we're all supposed to be "ministers" of the Gospel. And the Great Commission says that ALL Christians are to go and heal people and cast out demons in His name and disciple all nations. But I'm not what you'd call "clergy".

 

Ok, I have a prayer request. God knows what it is, and I want you and your friends to gather as soon as possible and pray for my family. I’ll be here waiting and tell you if the miracle happens. If it does, I will convert back and receive Jesus again, in 0.1 seconds. Do you take up on my challenge? Do you trust me to be honest with you, to tell you, if the miracle happens?

 

I know you want this very badly. I believe you would report it honestly. I believe this need you have is higher on your list of priorities than is winning an argument.

 

I don't control God. Nobody does. He has His own plan. But I can intercede for you and we'll see what happens. Maybe at the very least we'll find out what it is and why it is.

 

You believe in the God that is described in the Bible, therefore you belong to a structured system and an organized religion, just by the fact you follow a given book, and not your own beliefs. Give up the book, or you are a religious person.

 

These ARE my own beliefs. Most of what I've learned about God was shown to me through the Holy Spirit. I had to chuck most of what I learned in "church". I don't owe any MAN for where my understanding has come or for the relationship I have. Again, we have semantics problems. I don't see how I can deny being a "religious" person or a "spiritual" person - or why I would - but that's not the same as being sold out to a SYSTEM instead of a person.

 

I believe in something outside myself. Do you follow a book? Which one? Surely something in writing has influenced your thinking? Does that mean you're worshipping the book?

 

Take up my challenge!

You want to prove God to me? Take up my challenge! We need a miracle, and God knows what. He has known it for 9 years, and 10,000-20,000 people over the whole world prayed for us, and we’re still waiting…

 

All I can do is pray. I don't know what God intends to do with you or this need. I don't know how long it might take. But I will pray. I've got needs in my own family that aren't answered yet and some that were. God has it under control and whatever He wants to do is fine with me. But if He will truly be glorified and lives can be touched and shown the light of Christ then I will ask for what your family has been praying for. We'll see.

 

But I'm NOT going to take up the challenge from Vixentrox because that's just mocking and has the wrong spirit altogether. It seems that the argument is more important than the miracle. But Han, I get this is important to you and would make a big difference.

 

I implore you! Do it! Take up my challenge!

 

Dude, I'm not hard of hearing. Once was plenty.

 

And I really mean it, I DO WANT THE MIRACLE!

 

This is your hardest challenge ever, and I give you the chance to defend your faith with true miraculous events. So do it!

 

(Hardly the hardest challenge ever. That is the daily effort of getting myself out of the way so Christ in me can increase.)

 

I don't have to defend MY faith. My personal faith is what it is and it is unshakeable by you or the outcome of this. Again we have semantics problems - I think what you mean is defend your "religion" or defend "God". I don't need to defend God, He is what He is. I'm not defending anything. You said what it would take for you to come back to Christ and mean it. And I assume you were being honest and I assume that you would learn from all the past and if you came back you'd try to find the REAL Jesus and not trust some guy in a suit to tell you what God wants you to do. So I'm not defending anything, I'm just going to intercede that God would show Himself to you in a way you can't deny. I don't know what that will end up looking like. Maybe it won't be what you expect - but I'm praying it's unmistakeable.

 

In the meantime, maybe you guys would like to read about a guy raised from the dead? Daniel Ekechukwu The guy that wrote the report is a friend of mine and was very thorough in interviewing witnesses and Daniel himself on more than one occasion. Kind of pokes big holes in a lot of peoples "Once Saved, Always Saved" theologies. People are being raised from the dead regularly in third world countries - thousands of them.

 

Doug

[Cerise]

Wow. That was fast.

 

Well, I certainly never meant to "sicken you" and I wasn't taking potshots at anybody. The thread author asked me about MY faith and I answered.

 

I'm not sure how I "chided you for the sins of my God."  I expect to be misunderstood, so that doesn't bother me, but I really didn't set out to chide you, I am sincerely asking a question.

 

You sincerely insinuated that you knew better then anyone else here about why we no longer believe. You assumed that the only reason we don't see miracles is because we don't want to see miracles, not that miracles have never happened for us to see.

 

Would someone please tell me what would definitively prove God to you personally?  And if it happened would you really be willing to see it for what it was or rationalize it away?  Is there ANY point in having this conversation at ALL or are you already so hardened that it's pointless?  Cause if there is nobody here that is going to change their mind about anything, I hardly see that this is a good use of anyone's time.

 

Then go away. When did we ever personally invite you here to bother us?

 

Well, Cerise, I don't know what God has planned for you, but since you're still typing, it should be evident to all that you're still breathing and maybe that God might not be done with you yet. He's not really on our time-table. I know that you feel your faith was lost, but I guess we really won't know if it was lost for good until you take your last breath.  (Which I hope isn't anytime soon.) 

 

If you don't know then you can try to stop acting like you do. I can't live a "maybe" and "perhaps when God feels like it" kind of life. It would be painful and pointless.

 

I know people that tried to commit suicide bunches of times in big dramatic ways and angels kept saving them.

 

I know people who commited suicide. They died. What were the angels doing then? Smoking a joint?

 

I know a guy that hung himself in prison and was dead for fifteen minutes but survived miraculously by the hand of God. I know people that walked away from devastatingly bad head-on collisions that can only be explained by divine intervention. 

 

I know little girls who have been raped. I know men dying of cancer. I know women who have lost their babies to strange and terrible diseases. Why are you insistant on showing me that your god plays favourites? It isn't exactly a good endorsement of him.

 

And these people didn't even know Jesus yet at that point in their life. God had a plan for them, but some suffered many years in the "wilderness" alone and depressed until it was the right time for Him to call them into the battle.  Do I understand all the reasons for that? No. But this is a war and sometimes you hide your best weapons until the time is right. 

 

Fuck your war. We have enough to worry about today with real wars without worrying about supposed spiritual battles between petty gods.

 

The "churches" are not what God designed, they are what WE built.  I think something completely new is coming and it's going to fundamentally change the way we understand and relate to God.  And it won't look like "church" as we know it at all.

 

I could not care less. It wasn't the church that erased my faith. It was a total lack of god.

[Guest BradtheImpaler]

Ah, I remember learning about the bears mauling the 42 kids

 

How exactly do you suppose 2 bears managed to kill 42 teenagers in a single incident? Did they line up and wait their turn to be mauled? Or were they all in wheelchairs to begin with? (Kinda think they'd all have scattered in different directions, don't you? )

 

I guess it was accomplished the same way Samson clubbed 1000 Philistines to death with a jawbone?