Guest Valk0010 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Even if one got as far as proving to me that jesus had a empty tomb. But that still doesn't prove the christian god cause as they say, "Once you elimate the impossible, whatever left no matter how improbable must be the truth." There is no reason even then to say that the christian god exists, because even if you could sort of semi establish a miracle by purely historical means there is no reason to believe it happened cause the rest of the bible is such a miserable failure. And if the resurrection actually happened, the rest of the bible shouldn't be such a miserable failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 JayL, At least you can give yourself a pat on your shoulder for making me despise your religion even more. For every post you make, the more I dislike your faith. If your faith is true and you one day will stand in front of your maker, you can tell Jesus how great you were scaring people away from it. Good job. "...it would be better for him to have a large millstone..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 What Jay said to Akheia applies to all of us, i.e. have no understanding of the Bible - which we studied for many years, in original languages, etc. etc. Post a verse and Jay has a way of ignoring it and coming back with a smug two-liner. I was done already and I'm kicking myself for opening up this thread once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 JayL, At least you can give yourself a pat on your shoulder for making me despise your religion even more. For every post you make, the more I dislike your faith. If your faith is true and you one day will stand in front of your maker, you can tell Jesus how great you were scaring people away from it. Good job. "...it would be better for him to have a large millstone..." Well, Hans, I try my best.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I'd have a lot more respect for Jay if he'd just admit that yes, his Bible contains lies, inaccuracies, and contradictions and he doesn't care, rather than continue to insist that if you make an obscene number of assumptions and leaps of irrationality and a toxic level of fallacies, IT ALL MAKES SENSE RILLY GUIZE Well George Costanza did not give up. And neither will I !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Jay's position is clearly dead in the water here. Anyone with half a brain can see that Jay's wheels have no traction. No matter how much he wishes the Bible didn't say what it says, it does indeed say what it says. No, my position is HARDLY dead in the water here. Let me try to clarify what we know and what we can both agree upon. 1. Jesus taught in parables and many in the crowd could not understand the meaning - for whatever the reason. 2. Jesus, when asked by his disciples, explained meanings of the parables more fully. But even disciples could not fully grasp what Jesus was teaching. They remained perplexed about a number of issues. 3. When the high priest asked Jesus about his teaching, Jesus answered that all his teachings were in public and those who heard could relay what Jesus has taught. What I am trying to explain to people here ( as in using the mathematics behind the quantum mechanics analogy ) is this: Much of Jesus teaching was mysterious and many in the general public could not understand the meaning of parables. And the same went for his disciples. They came closer to understanding what Jesus was talking about but not entirely. The most important point is this: All the teachings of Jesus ( even though mysterious ) were OUT IN PUBLIC. The parables were simple illustrations of spiritual realities. And they were given in language and metaphors familiar to the listeners. Now he may explained more to his disciples but it was the same spiritual reality he was teaching. Nothing different. It is the same information. So when Jesus said to the high priest that all his teachings were out in public, he was right. ( Whether they were understood fully - and even his disciples could not understand them fully - is not the issue here. ) They were out there. To his disciples, he had more time and confidence to do some hand holding so they may get closer to understanding his teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 At least you admit that your arguments are on the level of George Costanza's rationalizations. You're not really serious with your posts here, are you? You're just having fun seeing how far you can stretch things, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Jay's position is clearly dead in the water here. Anyone with half a brain can see that Jay's wheels have no traction. No matter how much he wishes the Bible didn't say what it says, it does indeed say what it says. No, my position is HARDLY dead in the water here. It's completely dead in the water. 1. Jesus taught in parables and many in the crowd could not understand the meaning - for whatever the reason. That "whatever" reason is explicitly stated in the texts quoted multiple times in this thread. You keep denying what it says. Just admit that you don't give a rat's ass what the Bible says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Just admit that you don't give a rat's ass what the Bible says. Obvious Troll can't do that because it would be too honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull. Isa 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says: Matthew 13: 10-16 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. 16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear. Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !! 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah. And as shown in verse 12, what little knowledge they have gained by listening to Jesus parables would be taken away while the disciples would gain more knowledge about the spiritual reality behind the parables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Jay's position is clearly dead in the water here. Anyone with half a brain can see that Jay's wheels have no traction. No matter how much he wishes the Bible didn't say what it says, it does indeed say what it says. No, my position is HARDLY dead in the water here. It's completely dead in the water. 1. Jesus taught in parables and many in the crowd could not understand the meaning - for whatever the reason. That "whatever" reason is explicitly stated in the texts quoted multiple times in this thread. You keep denying what it says. Just admit that you don't give a rat's ass what the Bible says. You gotta dig deeper, my friend. The truth is out there !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 At least you admit that your arguments are on the level of George Costanza's rationalizations. You're not really serious with your posts here, are you? You're just having fun seeing how far you can stretch things, huh? No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull. Isa 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says: Matthew 13: 10-16 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. 16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear. Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !! 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah. And as shown in verse 12, what little knowledge they have gained by listening to Jesus parables would be taken away while the disciples would gain more knowledge about the spiritual reality behind the parables. Sorry, Jay, but you've completely missed the point. Look at the Isaiah passage in context: ISAIAH 6 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. 13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. This clearly has God telling Isaiah to make the proclamation to the Hebrews until the exile, which was hundreds of years before the time of Jesus. Nowhere does Isaiah say that it's a prediction of Jesus' time. The quote has been ripped out of context and reworded by the Gospel writers to fabricate a prophetic fulfillment. It was NOT a prediction and it had NOTHING to do with Jesus' time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Yeah, Jay, about that...? If your grasp on the "truth" is that bad, maybe you need to talk to a professional about your various issues. You got your ass kicked, and you're like a priggish pudgy kid on a playground stubbornly repeating "they're just jealous of my mad skillz" when you're passed over for yet another sports team. We've all known Christians who were like you to some extent, but when even people who've been traumatized by excessively religious fundies think you're fake, dude, you really need to re-evaluate how you're going about this mission of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Jay's position is clearly dead in the water here. Anyone with half a brain can see that Jay's wheels have no traction. No matter how much he wishes the Bible didn't say what it says, it does indeed say what it says. No, my position is HARDLY dead in the water here. It's completely dead in the water. 1. Jesus taught in parables and many in the crowd could not understand the meaning - for whatever the reason. That "whatever" reason is explicitly stated in the texts quoted multiple times in this thread. You keep denying what it says. Just admit that you don't give a rat's ass what the Bible says. You gotta dig deeper, my friend. The truth is out there !!! I've dug deeper than you have, and I have found the truth. I spent years and years studying the Bible, and you keep posting things that are demonstrably false. You don't know what you're talking about. You're the one who needs to find the truth. So far you've just swallowed mythological nonsense with a slightly modernized slant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 And appealing to the amplified bible helps your case how? We all know most bible translations including the king james were decided by committee. I for example use the NIV alot because it along with the KJV are the fundementalist picks generally. In fact I have ever found the NIV changing translations to smooth out countradictions (eg smallest seed of your kind, etc) So burden of proof is on you for saying that the amplified bible has the correct verbage for the verse you cited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The character portrayed by Jay hasn't just "swallowed" this bullpuckey. When presented with actual objective proof of our claims and numerous citations, he responds with half-baked rationalizations that make the wildest leaps of logic imaginable. I find that intellectually dishonest, especially when he simultaneously praises and then completely dismisses the collective learning and educational backgrounds of those who disagree with him. The actual bald facts are given to him, and he turns around and runs screaming from them because they just don't fit his preconceived notions. Instead of taking the explanation that is the simplest and the one that requires absolutely no fallacies or deceptions to assume (ie, that the NT has Jesus lying, being deliberately deceptive, and emulating mystery religions of his day, by the very words and actions attributed to him by the NT ghostwriters), he goes with the one that requires the hugest number of them (nope, despite there being flat-out proof of such, it didn't happen, don't look at that, it's not "really" true, and anybody who disagrees just doesn't understand LIKE I DO). I've only ever seen such behavior in the case of birthers and those sorts of lunatics. The only people Jay could "win over" would be those who are just as damaged as he is and just as lacking in critical thinking skills as he is. I don't know anybody on this site except for the resident fundies who would fit that bill, so I don't know who he's thinking he's going to convert here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I don't know anybody on this site except for the resident fundies who would fit that bill, so I don't know who he's thinking he's going to convert here. Christians do it to convince themeless. Thumby is the same way. They assert crap to talk themselves into keeping the faith. It's just got to be true. All you have to do is believe. Just trust me. blah blah blah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull. Isa 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says: Matthew 13: 10-16 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. 16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear. Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !! 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah. And as shown in verse 12, what little knowledge they have gained by listening to Jesus parables would be taken away while the disciples would gain more knowledge about the spiritual reality behind the parables. Sorry, Jay, but you've completely missed the point. Look at the Isaiah passage in context: ISAIAH 6 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. 13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. This clearly has God telling Isaiah to make the proclamation to the Hebrews until the exile, which was hundreds of years before the time of Jesus. Nowhere does Isaiah say that it's a prediction of Jesus' time. The quote has been ripped out of context and reworded by the Gospel writers to fabricate a prophetic fulfillment. It was NOT a prediction and it had NOTHING to do with Jesus' time. Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayL Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says. No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says. I ask you to try to understand what I am saying and go beyond taking scriptures out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The scripture of Isaiah, which Jesus claims to be fulfilling, instructs the messenger to make people dull. Isa 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Yes, that was the Isaiah prophecy. Now let's see how the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus. This is what the NT says: Matthew 13: 10-16 10 Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? 11 And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has [spiritual knowledge], to him will more be given and he will [c]be furnished richly so that he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is the reason that I speak to them in parables: because [d]having the power of seeing, they do not see; and [e]having the power of hearing, they do not hear, nor do they grasp and understand. 14 In them indeed is [f]the process of fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: You shall indeed hear and hear but never grasp and understand; and you shall indeed look and look but never see and perceive. 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. 16 But blessed (happy, fortunate, and [g]to be envied) are your eyes because they do see, and your ears because they do hear. Read this ( amplified version ) verse 15 carefully !! 15 For this nation’s heart has grown gross (fat and dull), and their ears heavy and difficult of hearing, and their eyes they have tightly closed, lest they see and perceive with their eyes, and hear and comprehend the sense with their ears, and grasp and understand with their heart, and turn and I should heal them. Jewish nation has become spiritually dull since that Isaiah prophecy has been made - some 600 years ago. The prophecy has indeed been fulfilled. They are indeed very dull at the time of Jesus ministry!! And as a reason, even when Jesus teach them in simple, understandable parables, they do not hear and they do not see and as a result, they cannot find their salvation in the Messiah. And as shown in verse 12, what little knowledge they have gained by listening to Jesus parables would be taken away while the disciples would gain more knowledge about the spiritual reality behind the parables. Sorry, Jay, but you've completely missed the point. Look at the Isaiah passage in context: ISAIAH 6 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, 12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. 13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof. This clearly has God telling Isaiah to make the proclamation to the Hebrews until the exile, which was hundreds of years before the time of Jesus. Nowhere does Isaiah say that it's a prediction of Jesus' time. The quote has been ripped out of context and reworded by the Gospel writers to fabricate a prophetic fulfillment. It was NOT a prediction and it had NOTHING to do with Jesus' time. Interestingly enough, the history repeated. After the ministry of Jesus ( and once again the dull spiritual condition of Jews ) even a bigger exile happened - as the Second Temple got destroyed, the city of Jerusalem in total ruin, and the land of Judea uninhabited after the Jewish War by Romans. Exactly as predicted by the prophesy. The words ex post facto reasoning mean nothing to you right? The second temple was destroyed cause jews got fed up living under roman rule and there were people like Zealots who were fed up with Roman rule. So at best that supposed prophecy fulfillment is a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says. No that is not what I meant. In trying to understand both sides of the argument, I felt like George Costanza facing an angry crowd. I had to stay cool headed, make the best case for my side of the argument and try my best to win over the opposition. But as George Costanza admitted, 'It is not easy'. I bet many people here are still in an angry, accusatory mood like Hans is in. That ship has not sailed yet, Jay. Exactly. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in trying to understand. All he wants to do is preach his preconceptions, even when those preconceptions are even contrary to what the Bible explicitly says. I ask you to try to understand what I am saying and go beyond taking scriptures out of context. And your being illogical, so tough shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well at least I understand why JayL remains a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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