Any Ill Will Toward Christians?

[Vigile]

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

 

No, maybe you should open up that holy book of yours and read it sometime instead of just quoting mantras your pastor taught you:

 

"So if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life injured or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."

 

And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell fire."

 

Mathew 18:8-9

 

You aren't supposed to just try and do your best. If you have problems with lust, take a pen knife and get to plucking. If you can't keep your hands off your penis, whack that sucker right off (pun intended).

 

Cherry pickin' ain't gonna get you to heaven son. This is serious business.

[mwc]

Satan was bound at the Cross, and is no longer able to keep the gospel from the nations. His fate is sealed. Hell is defeated, because God has made a way for Salvation.

The Satan was bound at the cross? Kinky. And it's good news for us because that means we won't be bothered by it anymore. Unless you count all those things attributed to this Satan. And the whole "end times" things where the Satan runs around "loosed" for some reason. I guess the binding doesn't take? Someone didn't practice their knots?

 

And where was this "gospel" before the cross? It was just aching to get spread around like warm butter but the Satan was preventing it? Mean old Satan thing. Guess he was even editing the Hebrew bible so that only cryptic verses contained "clues" to the "gospel" (as nonsense "prophecy") instead of just coming out with it. That wily critter.

 

At least after all these setbacks at the hand of the Satan the "god" has finally come up with a "way for Salvation." It involves waiting a long time and not actually doing away with the Satan (which seems to be, according to you, the root cause of many of these problems). So while the "god" can't seem to toss his humans into the waste heap fast enough, where they cannot escape for any reason whatsoever since they lack magic powers, he can't seem to remove the supernatural ability of the evil minions so they too can no longer escape the "prison" of "hell." By simply doing this many of his, and our, problems would be resolved. But he doesn't. He has a "plan" as you mention. And what a delightfully logical plan it is.

 

mwc

[mwc]

No, I know what I'm talking about. Repentance and holiness are essential to the Christian Way. We have to turn from our sins and to Christ, to try and live like Him. That's really all it means.

 

Seriously, what the hell does this mean?

It means think of everyone else like Pharisees and then act like a condescending ass to them. When they get sick of your shit cop a crucifixion complex. Back off for a few days then come back even more holier than thou.

 

mwc

[Legion]

Personally I try to live like George Bush, but I find I can't afford a personal 747. However, I do have some secret documents.

[Auracle]

It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Bible for it to be so. What the cross represents is tradition.

 

I just had a thought - when asked by parents if all their friends jumped off a bridge, would they too, Catholic children should answer, "Yes, because it is tradition."

 

Ok, that was kind of off the top of my head and I don't know that it will come across to anyone as intended, but hey, I can try.

[Auracle]

Not ill will, but I do still have a prejudice against them (including my own family) and other "Our Way Is the Only Right Way" religions. It bothers me to have the prejudice, but then I hear in the media someone saying something like it is Truth, and it drives me nuts. And when I find someone needing to mention their beliefs in public, I do find them less appealing as a person. I'd like to get beyond that point someday. but for now, websites like this are great because they are the few places around where I feel safe from the majority's beliefs (including Americanism). Reminds me there are other ways to look at the world and universe. Far too long has the single-minded culture of Christianity run things. Annoying really. Undemocratic, and anti-liberty. If it works for you fine, but too many think it should work for me too, and that is not fine. Not fine at all.

:whs:

 

I think that describes my sentiments pretty well. I admit, when I hear someone is a Christian, my reaction tends to be along the lines of "Eww!" and/or "Run for the hills!"

 

Now, having said that, I do have friends and family that are Christians. I really haven't tried to deconvert anyone (yet), but I do occasionally try to explain my viewpoints on things, which often ends up being an uncomfortable exercise for me (which is another reason sites like this are good for people like me who feel more comfortable writing and/or in an online environment).

 

I am anti-religion in general, but I don't think I have quite as strong a reaction to other religions as I do to Christianity, however. I suspect this is due to having been brought up in Catholicism and most of the people I know that follow a religion follow one brand or another of Christianity. Thus it is what I am most familiar with and most exposed to.

 

I think the reason my reaction is what it is often has more to do with me and my experiences rather than the person themself. I think that due in large part to my abusive upbringing, as well as my temperament, I have a high sensitivity to the suffering and abuse of others. Recognizing that in many ways religion can be and is abusive, and that these people are either victims and/or perpetrators of those abusive beliefs/practices (whether intentionally or not), does not sit very well with me.

 

I also feel like I have suffered enough judgment and/or condemnation, and as it is I get enough guilt trips and am enough of an outcast as it is with regard to secular, everyday life; I don't need religious judgment and ostracization on top of it!

[Auracle]

Satan was bound at the Cross, and is no longer able to keep the gospel from the nations. His fate is sealed. Hell is defeated, because God has made a way for Salvation.

 

Woop-de-doo, he's still able to keep the gospel from individuals. He's still free to roam around, fucking with people's minds (and obviously he is, or we wouldn't have sites like this now, would we? ), regardless of his "sealed" fate. His fate has always been sealed, regardless of Christ - God never gave him an opportunity for redemption.

 

No. Satan can only be considered "defeated" if God either removes him from existence, or completely and permanently confines him to hell where he cannot exercise any influence over humanity. Until such time, he is still active and thus not beaten.

 

Likewise, I could only consider Hell "defeated" if it were to be removed from existence, or somehow sealed such that no more humans could ever be subjected to it. If you create a fork in a road, but do not destroy or block the original path, you have not "defeated" anything. You may divert some traffic, but as long as you leave that original path open, it is still "alive and well", so to speak. And given the immense majority of people who are still traveling the original path (to hell), I'd say Hell, far from being "defeated", is kicking Heaven's ass.

[Drifter]

Drifter I sincerely hope that you will talk about yourself too, and not merely about your religion.

 

Let the magnificent mammal within you shine through.

I thought we were talking about religion...

Man, I am just trying to help you out here. I don't know why exactly. I guess it's because I know that you are genuine human being beneath all this socially constructed religion. All we see of you is a standard bearer of Christianity. But I know that you are more than this. Let us put a human face on you. Please tell us something about you.

 

How old are you?

Are you married?

Do you have children?

How do you make a living?

What is your favorite color?

What did you have for breakfast?

Do you have any hobbies?

What was the last book you read for fun?

 

Please include anything that you think is relevant. This is the Lion's Den. We can talk about anything we want.

 

 

Oh, ok. Let's see...

 

I'm 21.

 

I'm not married. I haven't even decided if I want to be married one day.

 

I have no children.

 

I used to work at a gas station. It was a temporary job. Now, I'm doing everything I can to get into college. I haven't decided what I want my definate career to be, yet. I was thinking of going to into some kind of law enforcement field.

 

My favorite color? I guess it's black. I wear alot of black. Red too.

 

I didn't have anything for breakfast, actually.

 

My nonreligious hobbies: Paintball, hiking {Just being in nature}, target practice {which I'll be able to do alot more of pretty soon. I'm applying for a pistol permit}, martial arts, hangin' with my friends, music, movies, reading, and I guess that's about it. There may be some more, but no other things come to mind right now.

 

Right now, I'm in the middle of reading The Orthodox Church by Bishop Timothy Ware.

 

My favorite holiday is Halloween. Goin' to Haunted Houses and stuff like. This year I think I may go to a Cemetary as well with some friends. It should be fun. One of the people that may be going {if we can convince her} is really superstitious about those types of things. It'll be fun to see how she'll react. I don't know why I mentioned that. I guess because it's almost October, and I'm looking foward to it.

 

So, how about you?

[Drifter]

Then why don't yall ban the Christians that come on here, rather than tell them its alright to debate? That's what the Lion's Den is for; ar at least that's what it says.

 

Because it is thereputic for some ex-christians to debate the preaching in the Lions Den. It took some of us many years to escape from Christianity and there we see over and over the same weak arguments for Christianity.

 

Serious debate takes place in the Arena or Colosseum areas, of which we have not seen very many.

 

What's your point Drifter? Do you expect to come on a site like this and present Christianity with no opposition or be treated with kid gloves?

 

 

If you have seen the place I work at, you wouldn't even ask. I have very thick skin, and have no need to be treated with kid gloves. It's just that when I talk to people around here, they seem to have a preconceived idea of what I'm going to say, or what I believe. Most of the people I've seen post around here are exevangelicals or have a real problem with fundies. I'm neither. Yet, people assume my beliefs or guess my "angle" before I even say anything.

I haven't the time to read all the pages of this thread yet, but will post briefly here as the primary moderator of this forum that the Lion's Den is a place for Christians who come here to talk/debate with the membership here without causing disruptions in the other forums where the primary focus is support for ExChristians. It's not per se meant as an open invitation "Come save us", but a place where it is tolerated, and in the case of those who wish to debate encouraged to do so here, outside the other forums.

 

That said, I did notice you're from the Orthodox Church by your cross symbol. I personally don't pre-judge someone's beliefs and I know yours are different than the typical right-wing Evangelical fare. I always enjoy hearing different perspectives on the subject, and as time permits I'll read through what you have to say and possibly engage in discussion with you.

 

To answer your question, no I don't have any ill will towards Christians; only towards people who act badly towards others.

 

 

Alright man, thanks. And I will be converting to the Church. I'm not a member yet.

 

 

I should have mentioned something else here. You said this isn't necessarily a "come and save us" forum. I understand that. And I'm not trying to "save" or preach to any of you. If that's how it's coming off, I'm doing something wrong here, because I don't mean it to be. It's you're life, not mine. We all have free will to believe whatever we want. My reason for being here is discussion. There's nothing more to it than that. I'm not saying you did, but if no one stereotypes me {such as assuming I'm only a "Parrating" what has been told to me}, I won't stereotype any one else {such as saying you didn't have true faith to begin with} and maybe a good discussion will come out of it.

[Kuroikaze]

To follow Christianity is to follow its teachings. If you don't believe in all the teachings of Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

 

Yes, but everyone has their own opinion about what the "real" teachings are. Many early christian groups, including the Marcionites and the Gnostics did not accept the belief that Jesus was 100% man and 100% god. After the council of Nicea such groups were declared heretics, and through the power of the state these groups were hunted down. Though the Marcionites continued to survive in northern Africa until the 8th or 9th century. The point is, that this belief is not some obvious truth, its just something a bunch of old men got together and voted on in the 5th century and then proceded to use violence to enforce.

 

I'm going to become American Orthodox. And the Council of Nicea is the first Christian Council. This was before the East-West Schism of A.D 1054, so both the Catholics and Orthodox follow it.

 

Yes, but I'm pretty sure the orthodox church began to differ in beliefs much earlier than this, maybe I'm wrong, its been a while since I studied this stuff in college.

[Vigile]

We all have free will to believe whatever we want.

 

I don't. I can no more believe in Santa than I can believe in biblegod. When faced with the facts belief just follows. It's not a willful act by any means.

 

This kind of nulifies biblegod's system of justice does it not?

 

such as assuming I'm only a "Parrating" what has been told to me

 

Calling you out on parroted mantras isn't stereotyping, it's just pointing out facts. You may think you came to your own conclussions on some of your statements, but they sound an awful lot like what I heard from the pulpit for the first 24 years of my life.

[Deva]

Drifter, I don't think there are too many American Orthodox Churches around, most of them are Greek or Russian. Very ethnic. Are you fortunate enough to have an American Orthodox Church close by?

 

I am curious about your going from evangelical to orthodox because of the many differences in doctrine and practice. Aesthetically, the orthodox church is much superior, but my question to you is if you were formerly evangelical and you have to now start venerating icons, how does that feel to you? What about all the worship of Mary as the Theotokos? Do you have problems with any of these things or is it all very attractive?

 

And I don't believe in free will.

[Spiderwire]

Well, at least you've seen a lot of the world and have had many experiences that would cause your religion to make sense to you and solidify your faith. It's always so refreshing to hear The Gospel® proclaimed by one who's got so much life under their belt. Paintball can be a harrowing thing, I imagine. If you ever want to discuss what it's like to lay down suppressive fire for real - with real bullets and real people shooting their real bullets back at you - let me know.

 

Does your youth leader know you're here playing? C'mon... be honest.

[Drifter]

Calling you out on parroted mantras isn't stereotyping, it's just pointing out facts. You may think you came to your own conclussions on some of your statements, but they sound an awful lot like what I heard from the pulpit for the first 24 years of my life.

 

 

Actually it is stereotyping. If I believed everything the "pastor" told me, I'd still be a Baptist.

[Drifter]

If you ever want to discuss what it's like to lay down suppressive fire for real - with real bullets and real people shooting their real bullets back at you - let me know.

 

Does your youth leader know you're here playing? C'mon... be honest.

 

 

1. What do you do that would cause that? Are you in law enforcement?

 

2. I don't have a youth leader, nor would I want to join a youth group. I've always found them to be cheesy. I don't even know if any Orthodox churches have them.

[Vigile]

Calling you out on parroted mantras isn't stereotyping, it's just pointing out facts. You may think you came to your own conclussions on some of your statements, but they sound an awful lot like what I heard from the pulpit for the first 24 years of my life.

 

 

Actually it is stereotyping. If I believed everything the "pastor" told me, I'd still be a Baptist.

 

No one said you believe "everything" the pastor tells you. I still submit to you that you are parroting what you have been told. Case in point, God:Jesus 100% + 100%. This isn't taught in the bible, it's a mantra that is taught from the pulpit and in apologetics books.

 

I could list more statements you made that are similar.

 

ster·e·o·type (str--tp, stîr-)

n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

3. Printing A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type.

[Drifter]

Drifter, I don't think there are too many American Orthodox Churches around, most of them are Greek or Russian. Very ethnic. Are you fortunate enough to have an American Orthodox Church close by?

 

I am curious about your going from evangelical to orthodox because of the many differences in doctrine and practice. Aesthetically, the orthodox church is much superior, but my question to you is if you were formerly evangelical and you have to now start venerating icons, how does that feel to you? What about all the worship of Mary as the Theotokos? Do you have problems with any of these things or is it all very attractive?

 

And I don't believe in free will.

 

 

The American churches come from the Russian. And I actually do have an OCA Church near by. Well, driving distance anyway. It's about 30-40 minutes away.

 

 

It was pretty weird when I first began looking into it. I started studying it way before I ever visited a church. I even had second thoughts after I visited one, because of how different it is. I love it, though. After actually studying Church history, it began to make sense; especially more than Protestantism. Venerating icons , praying to the Theotokos, the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist as the actual Body and Blood of Christ, and different things like that were hard to come by at first. But now, I have no problem with them. Venerating icons and prayer to the Theotokos and Saints is not worship, and I understand that now. Before, I'd just contradict someone who was actual of that church, and say "Yes, you worship them." But how would someone know what someone else worships? I have changed quite a bit since I decided to study about it. This is what I used to believe in, and now has changed:

 

Sola Scriptura - Scripture alone as the basis for authority

 

Sola Fide - Faith alone for Salvation

 

Holy Communion as symbolic of the Body and Blood of Christ

 

All Christians, no matter the denomination, make up the Church

 

Eternal Security

 

The Rapture

 

Chiliasm - a literal 1,000 yr. rule of Christ.

 

So yeah, my beliefs have changed alot. That's just some of the ways. I love it now. I'll be glad to get my car fixed so I can go back. It's difficult to get out of the Protestant mindset, however. But hopefully I will. I remember someone a few pages back say the Orthodox Church is very judgmental. That's just not true. My Church is made up of the most humble people I've ever met. How people, who claim to hold the true faith, can be so humble is amazing to me. Even the Church Fathers teach against the judgmental mindset. For me, it's much more fulfilling than Protestant churches.

[Drifter]

Calling you out on parroted mantras isn't stereotyping, it's just pointing out facts. You may think you came to your own conclussions on some of your statements, but they sound an awful lot like what I heard from the pulpit for the first 24 years of my life.

 

 

Actually it is stereotyping. If I believed everything the "pastor" told me, I'd still be a Baptist.

 

No one said you believe "everything" the pastor tells you. I still submit to you that you are parroting what you have been told. Case in point, God:Jesus 100% + 100%. This isn't taught in the bible, it's a mantra that is taught from the pulpit and in apologetics books.

 

I could list more statements you made that are similar.

 

ster·e·o·type (str--tp, stîr-)

n.

1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.

3. Printing A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type.

 

 

I believe in the Orthodox Church. And it is Tradition that He is fully God and fully Man. Ikons aren't in the Scriptures either. Although, it happens that Christ being God and Man is in the Scriptures.

[Guest end3]

gheez, he's 21, cut him some slack...

[Deva]

So yeah, my beliefs have changed alot. That's just some of the ways. I love it now. I'll be glad to get my car fixed so I can go back. It's difficult to get out of the Protestant mindset, however. But hopefully I will. I remember someone a few pages back say the Orthodox Church is very judgmental. That's just not true. My Church is made up of the most humble people I've ever met. How people, who claim to hold the true faith, can be so humble is amazing to me. Even the Church Fathers teach against the judgmental mindset. For me, it's much more fulfilling than Protestant churches.

 

It has been probably almost 10 years since I attended services at St. Hermans of Alaska Church. Now that you mention it, it was Russian but it may have been a part of the American Orthodox Church. It was a part of the process in my deconversion. I read many orthodox books, and if you have not already, you would like "The Philokalia" and the "Spritual Counsels of Father John of Kronstadt." These were people who were really serious about their faith and I was impressed by that for a long time.

 

You may find it more difficult over the long term to adjust to the practices of the Orthodox Church. I was almost at the same spot you are at although I was considerably older than you are when I was at that point. I like how you are starting to discuss with us on this thread and not just reciting doctrine. We all know all of that, but we would like to get your personal story, and that is what you are doing when you make posts like the above. Its much better.

 

Nothing could induce me to go back to the prison of Christian dogma in any form. Almost all of us on this site have been in it for many years and then we found our way to freedom. A pretty package does not make the truth. The Orthodox Church may seem very attractive, but its a very restrictive way of thinking and living. There are still the "saved" and the "lost" even if they may not seem as outwardly judgmental.

[Drifter]

So yeah, my beliefs have changed alot. That's just some of the ways. I love it now. I'll be glad to get my car fixed so I can go back. It's difficult to get out of the Protestant mindset, however. But hopefully I will. I remember someone a few pages back say the Orthodox Church is very judgmental. That's just not true. My Church is made up of the most humble people I've ever met. How people, who claim to hold the true faith, can be so humble is amazing to me. Even the Church Fathers teach against the judgmental mindset. For me, it's much more fulfilling than Protestant churches.

 

It has been probably almost 10 years since I attended services at St. Hermans of Alaska Church. Now that you mention it, it was Russian but it may have been a part of the American Orthodox Church. It was a part of the process in my deconversion. I read many orthodox books, and if you have not already, you would like "The Philokalia" and the "Spritual Counsels of Father John of Kronstadt." These were people who were really serious about their faith and I was impressed by that for a long time.

 

You may find it more difficult over the long term to adjust to the practices of the Orthodox Church. I was almost at the same spot you are at although I was considerably older than you are when I was at that point. I like how you are starting to discuss with us on this thread and not just reciting doctrine. We all know all of that, but we would like to get your personal story, and that is what you are doing when you make posts like the above. Its much better.

 

Nothing could induce me to go back to the prison of Christian dogma in any form. Almost all of us on this site have been in it for many years and then we found our way to freedom. A pretty package does not make the truth. The Orthodox Church may seem very attractive, but its a very restrictive way of thinking and living. There are still the "saved" and the "lost" even if they may not seem as outwardly judgmental.

 

 

1. How was it involved in you deconversion?

 

2. And I know. I tend to get somewhat preachy on forums, although I don't mean to be. Obviously that's how it comes off. I'm not like that in real life.

 

3. There's the saved and the lost in this Church? That's not what I get from it. From what I've learned, no one really knows if they're saved or not {Although, we can have confidence in our Salvation}. The Orthodox people I've talked to say God can save believers and unbelievers alike; and that we're not supposed to judge anyone's Salvation.

[Deva]

1. How was it involved in you deconversion?

 

It was a step away from protestantism and an attempt to reconcile myself with some form of Christianity. It did not work.

 

2. And I know. I tend to get somewhat preachy on forums, although I don't mean to be. Obviously that's how it comes off. I'm not like that in real life.

 

I am glad you recognize that. Just be aware that we have read the Bible, have heard all the Christian dogma and have rejected it. For some of us it was a painful process that took many years.

 

3. There's the saved and the lost in this Church? That's not what I get from it. From what I've learned, no one really knows if they're saved or not {Although, we can have confidence in our Salvation}. The Orthodox people I've talked to say God can save believers and unbelievers alike; and that we're not supposed to judge anyone's Salvation.

 

I don't think that the Orthodox believe anyone can really be saved outside the Church (they would probably deny it if you asked them). But notice that they have a closed communion. You cannot partake if you are not orthodox. This is the central act of the church and you can be a protestant Christian for over 20 years and you still can't participate. That is exclusivist to me. It is just like the Roman Catholic Church.

 

"God can save believers and unbelievers alike.... we're not supposed to judge" I have heard similar statements in the Baptist Chruch. Its still saved and lost, and judge they do. Its the condemned and redeemed. Sure you can always hold out the hope that someone will get saved in the future, but how is that a way to view people?

 

Actually you have no certainty of your own salvation- no matter what church you are in.

 

Let me ask you this-- if you had the realization that your religion was interfering with your ability to love God and other people (as you are commanded to do in the Bible) what would you do?

[ghostchild]

3. There's the saved and the lost in this Church? That's not what I get from it. From what I've learned, no one really knows if they're saved or not {Although, we can have confidence in our Salvation}. The Orthodox people I've talked to say God can save believers and unbelievers alike; and that we're not supposed to judge anyone's Salvation.

 

 

I remember this line from my days in orthodoxy. Take a moment to think about it, though, ok? according to the orthodox church, the orthodox faith is the *true* faith isn't it? the one that gets it right? possibly the only church in existence, christian or not, that has the apostolic faith, handed down from jesus? And doesn't the bible tell you "believe in me and be saved"?

 

isn't it taught in the orthodox church that *only* through confession and communion can sins be washed away? i was taught to believe that, while we are born without sin, we sin daily because of our fallen nature. unless those sins are forgiven, we cannot make it into everlasting life, i.e. heaven.

 

this seemed to make it clear to me that while the orthodox church doesn't want you to say "bob's going to hell and i'm not", the reason they don't want you to say that is 'cuz it makes you look like an arrogant dickhead, and also because you have no way of knowing for sure if that person isn't secretly confessing to a priest, or will one day do so.

 

the bottom line always seemed to be, if you aren't baptised orthodox or don't go to confession and communion, you're probably (not definitely but almost certainly) hell-bound. that's *why* orthodox people stay in the orthodox church, and it's what they teach their children.

[buffettphan]

according to the orthodox church, the orthodox faith is the *true* faith isn't it?

 

Sounds like what I was taught and is believed by the roman catholic church also. Yet another "One True Faith".

 

[ghostchild]

according to the orthodox church, the orthodox faith is the *true* faith isn't it?

 

Sounds like what I was taught and is believed by the roman catholic church also. Yet another "One True Faith".

 

 

 

yeah, don't they all do that? claim absolute world-shattering truth? and considering orthodoxy is split like twenty ways now it's kinda silly because which one of them is right? roll a dice. lol