Challenge for Christians - GO and preach!

[pug]

 

 

[Ouroboros]

Joe: Interesting. But it still boggles my mind that a loving God would condone the wholesale slaughter of innocent babies such as He did in Deuteronomy 2.

 

Arnie: In a fallen world, isn't it possible that God may have to periodically authorize some less-than-ideal measures in order to deter further evil? Like a police officer who, in order to deal with disorder, has to use force. If you think about it, whenever God tolerated or "ordered" violent action in the Old Testament, it was to restrain evil or to deter some greater atrocity.

...

 

Arnie: Well, what is clear from history is that these so-called innocent Amalekite babies were part of a self-perpetuating system of evil that often defied description. There are many reasons to believe that these babies represented a rising generation of Mohammed Attas, Osama bin Ladens, and Adolf Hitlers.

 

Ancient sects and nations like the Amalekites would often heat up an idol like Molech with fire until it was glowing. Then they would take their newborn babies, place them on the arms of the idol, and watch them burn to death. (Source: New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale, 1962.) At other times they would kill disabled, weak, and elderly people without so much as a second thought (Deuteronomy 25:17-18).

 

In The Case for Faith (Zondervan, 2000), author Lee Strobel poses a question similar to the one you've asked. He says:

 

[1 Samuel 15:3] sounds more like a violent and brutal God than a loving one. How can people be expected to worship him if he orders innocent children to be slaughtered?

 

Apologist Norman Geisler responds,

 

[The Amalekites] were not nice people. In fact, there were utterly and totally depraved. Their mission was to destroy Israel. In other words, to commit genocide... The destruction of their nation was necessitated by the gravity of their sin. Had some hardcore remnant survived, they might have resumed their aggression against the Israelites and God's plan.

Hmm. And where did this information come from? "The Amalekites were not nice people" while if you research about them there's not much information at all about them, a lot of assumptions. So the threat from the Amalekites were that they would kill Israel, which is bad, so God order Israel to kill the Amalekites, which is good. Eeeh... Who's the one to judge this?

 

What about the book "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which states the Jews kill and eat babies. I guess that settles the Nazis death camps to be good...

 

I really don't see how God order killing babies ever can be justified, with any description or excuse. At least America didn't kill all women and all children in Afghanistan. Supposedly only military targets were taken out, if any innocent got hit, it was rather a mistake, but not an intentional act. While God intentionally target kids and women.

 

Really, I can't see this article give any reasonable explanation to why God order killing of babies in OT.

 

The same site give information of the Amalekites like it's not clear who they were or where they came from, so how the heck can we know their culture and habits?

 

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/amalekite.html

[Cerise]

You: So what's up with this, man? It sounds to me like your God is a regular butcher here -- slaughtering kids, women, and pets -- total disregard for even the basic standards of the Geneva Conventions!

 

Me: What initially may sound rather atrocious becomes a lot more understandable when you hear the other side of the story.

 

You: Which is...

 

Me: Which is -- in a fallen, evil world (unlike the one that God created), there are seldom any really happy alternatives. What God eventually condoned here as necessary is certainly not what he originally envisioned as ideal.

 

But let me ask you a few questions. Would you ever think it justifiable to put two teenage boys in the scope of a rifle and pull the trigger? Does that sound unthinkable, atrocious, and absolutely unjustifiable? Well, what if those teenage boys' names were Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris? Few folks would condemn the SWAT officers who did that very thing at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999.

 

You: So you're comparing lots of innocent Amalekite babies to two brutal Columbine murderers?

 

Me: Well, what is clear from history is that these so-called innocent Amalekite babies were part of a self-perpetuating system of evil that often defied description. There are many reasons to believe that these babies represented a rising generation of Mohammed Attas, Osama bin Ladens, and Adolf Hitlers.

 

Ancient sects and nations like the Amalekites would often heat up an idol like Molech with fire until it was glowing. Then they would take their newborn babies, place them on the arms of the idol, and watch them burn to death. (Source: New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale, 1962.) At other times they would kill disabled, weak, and elderly people without so much as a second thought (Deuteronomy 25:17-18).

 

Pug, take that kind of bullshit outside. It stinks.

[Kryten]

Well, God tried to murder all of the evil toddlers, infants, fetuses, mothers, teenagers, and fathers, but he failed miserably. King "Man-After-God's-Own-Heart" David had to fight them again later.

Read this article by Farrell Till for a more truthful picture.

 

Of course the loving, caring apologists will defend their Tyrant Overlord because they are commanded to, and to entertain thoughts of dissent is to be subject to His holy wrath. They are forced to say it was GOOD for God to kill all those innocent children because God did it, and there can't be anything in the Bible that is wrong, and there can't be anything that God does that is bad.

[All Gods Fail]

Me: Well, what is clear from history is that these so-called innocent Amalekite babies were part of a self-perpetuating system of evil that often defied description. There are many reasons to believe that these babies represented a rising generation of Mohammed Attas, Osama bin Ladens, and Adolf Hitlers.

 

Ancient sects and nations like the Amalekites would often heat up an idol like Molech with fire until it was glowing. Then they would take their newborn babies, place them on the arms of the idol, and watch them burn to death. (Source: New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale, 1962.) At other times they would kill disabled, weak, and elderly people without so much as a second thought (Deuteronomy 25:17-18).

 

That is the most perverse moral reasoning I think I've ever heard. 'Nits grow into lice', does that about sum it up?

 

Maybe we should start killing Islamic babies so none of them can grow up to be terrorists...

 

Not to mention the fact that there isn't any biblical or extra-biblical proof for all the supposed atrocities committed by the Amalekites. In fact, the consensus of educated opinion is that the Amalekites probably didn't exist.

 

Nontheless, let's keep that important lesson - babies are evil & dangerous!

[LadyFeline]

Nontheless, let's keep that important lesson - babies are evil & dangerous!

 

I love you

[All Gods Fail]

I love you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I know what the ladies like!

[Fweethawt]

Keep up the good work, Pug.

 

When the more sane among the believers reads reasoning such as yours, you easily drive them away from your religion. Are you sure that it is God that is working through you, and not Satan?

 

With thoughts like that flowing through your head, I'd say that Satan has found a comfortable residing place within your mind.

 

 

Yessssss, Pug, you are doing well. Keep justifying the killing of babies, I have a nice place down here for you.

[pug]

Why Does the God of the Old Testament Seem So Cruel and Judgmental?

by Rich Deem

 

The God in the Old Testament seems to have many personalities; cruel, unjust, kind, loving, etc."1. There are, however, two major areas which we humans have a difficult time reconciling - God's love vs. God's righteousness. God is loving, but God's love requires God's justice.

 

As we discipline our children when they disobey, God disciplines us if we don't meet His requirements. The problem for us is that we cannot keep all of God's laws because of our selfishness and self-centeredness.2. God would have been completely just and loving in destroying all of us for our disobedience to Him.

 

It is only through His extraordinary love and grace that we are allowed into His presence.

 

If you were to read atheist's websites, you will often find complaints that the God of the Bible arbitrarily ordered the destruction of entire cities, such as Jericho, just to allow the Jews to have a homeland in the Middle East.

 

How could a loving God command the destruction of all those innocent people? The argument sounds good, but it is utterly false. The unstated assumption is that the people who God ordered destroyed were morally equivalent to the Jews, who replaced them. However, this is what the Bible says about the people who were destroyed:

 

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

 

Okay, how "wicked" could those people have been? How about killing their own sons and daughters by burning them in sacrifices to their gods:

 

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

 

The wickedness of these people is confirmed in other verses of the Bible.3 So we see that these people are not quite as innocent as the atheists would like you to believe.

 

Then again, maybe those atheists believe that killing your children is not all bad. After all, killing viable pre-born babies is legal in this country (it's called a choice, a.k.a. abortion). For these reasons (and others 4.), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.

 

In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin - everything that goes against His character. If God let everyone into heaven, then He would have to allow in people such as Stalin and Hitler.

 

Obviously, heaven would not be a good place to be with the likes of those people there. Therefore, God's righteousness requires the judgment of all sin.

 

Only those people who agree with God and are willing to allow themselves to be changed into sinless beings can enter into heaven.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References

 

1. I would caution you not to judge God, since it is said, "Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." (Romans 2:1)

 

2. For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (Isaiah 64:6) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one;" (Romans 3:10)

 

3. and the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech the gods of Sepharvaim. (2 Kings 17:31)

 

4. "When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?' (Deuteronomy 12:29-30)

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html

[Fweethawt]

Hey!

Pug!

 

Are you able to formulate an opinion of your own, or do you just like to read what other people have written, copy/paste it, and say, "Okay, this is what I'd like to use as a reply to you." ?

 

BTW- whoever wrote that, is a pud. (not pug, pud)

 

You stinking religously oriented ignorant assholes seem to be under some sort of impression that atheists are responsible for abortion or something.

 

Listen, Pug, there are genuine reasons for women to have abortions. I know that your little mind can't comprehend what I'm saying, but it's true. And not one of those reasons has anything at all to do with literaly ripping a baby out of the woman's belly because she won't bow down to a certain imaginary deity.

 

I have an idea. How 'bout if you try to educate yourself instead of being a little puppet for the liars that spread this shit around?

 

You assholes think that abortion is some sort of joke for those who go through with it. Let me guess, you probably think that women go out and get laid by anyone, just so that they can get pregnant, and then go have an abortion because they are just so much fun, right? That's probably what you think, isn't it?

 

If you can justify killing babies (along with their mothers), it doesn't surprise me a bit to find that you are demented enough to think that abortion is some sort of favorite passtime among unbelievers.

[pug]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Fwee,

 

 

Are you able to formulate an opinion of your own, or do you just like to read what other people have written, copy/paste it, and say, "Okay, this is what I'd like to use as a reply to you." ?

 

My opinion is similar to what I've copied and pasted for your enjoyment. As you would already know, all of you guys' questions have already been answered.

 

Although I admit some of your questions have been answered a little too arrogantly (by your fundies?). So I pick and choose a gentler answer for you.

 

 

Listen, Pug, there are genuine reasons for women to have abortions. I know that your little mind can't comprehend what I'm saying, but it's true. And not one of those reasons has anything at all to do with literaly ripping a baby out of the woman's belly because she won't bow down to a certain imaginary deity.

My little mind, surprisingly, can actually understand why some women have to seek abortion ~ a rapist's child, for example or teenage pregnancy.

 

 

I have an idea. How 'bout if you try to educate yourself instead of being a little puppet for the liars that spread this shit around?

 

What puppet? Oh you mean God pulling my strings? Afraid not ~ just my Holy Spirit. Your big mind can comprehend that I presume?

 

You assholes think that abortion is some sort of joke for those who go through with it. Let me guess, you probably think that women go out and get laid by anyone, just so that they can get pregnant, and then go have an abortion because they are just so much fun, right? That's probably what you think, isn't it?

 

IF you can think that up... Nahhhh. IF that woman plans to have fun, she wouldn't wish to get knocked up, would she?

 

If you can justify killing babies (along with their mothers), it doesn't surprise me a bit to find that you are demented enough to think that abortion is some sort of favorite passtime among unbelievers.

 

I did not mean to justify killing babies ~ it is recorded in one of the books in the Bible. Then I refered you to an explaination. Not justification BUT why God had to do it.

 

And I do not think that abortion is a hobby of un-believers. It's just that, you know... why not read the article again? I don't have any opinions, only borrowed ones.

[pug]

Fwee, here's an article for you to read about abortion:

 

 

Our own Holocaust

 

That was the headline in the Sunday Telegraph (newspaper in United Kingdom) on the subject of Thursday's 60th anniversary of the Russian army's entry into Auschwitz.

 

They made a telling point - we congratulate ourselves on how much better we are than were the Nazis, but we have an extermination programme every bit as ruthless as their's was. The Nazis started off by forcibly sterilising the mentally handicapped as 'unfit to reproduce', a policy supported by British socialist intellectuals like George Bernard Shaw. They moved to exterminating those they termed 'useless eaters', using gas to kill them, and then extended the policy to other sections of society they disliked, mainly Jews. As for the disabled, 70,000 handicapped people were put to death by the summer of 1941.

 

In Britain today, to kill an unborn baby after 24 weeks is illegal, unless the baby is diagnosed with a handicap, which as we have recently seen, can be as trivial as a cleft palate. We compel the owners of the smallest public building to construct ramps for the disabled, whilst trying to eliminate disabled people before they are actually born. Disabled people cost money to look after, and the Nazis would have appreciated the logic of our position.

 

At 550 unborn babies a day, we may not be killing as fast as the Nazis managed, but we have been at it for longer. Just like they did with their extermination programme, we started by killing the hard cases, but moved quickly to extend it to those who were just inconvenient to have around. Our total death toll is now well over 6 million from abortion in the thirty-six years since it was legalised in 1968. The Sunday Telegraph concluded:

 

"We have successfully disguised the enormity of what we are doing from ourselves, just as the Nazis did. Thursday should not be an occasion for congratulating ourselves on how far we have come from the moral abyss of National Socialism. It should rather prompt an honest recognition of how disturbingly close our abortion laws have taken us to it."

[Cerise]

Pug, I thought I told you to take your stinking bullshit outside?

 

The neighbors will think we live in a pig sty if you keep on carting that shit in here.

[Checkmate]

Pug, I thought I told you to take your stinking bullshit outside?

 

The neighbors will think we live in a pig sty if you keep on carting that shit in here.

Agreed. Pug, are you familiar with the concept of "thread derailing"? That is when you introduce a NEW and seperate topic totally OFF topic of the original post. This is what you have done here.

 

This thread WAS about a challenge to Christians to go and preach, not about God's violent nature. If you want to continue discussing God's insane lust for blood, why not begin a new thread?

 

Thanks.

[All Gods Fail]

This thread WAS about a challenge to Christians to go and preach, not about God's violent nature.  If you want to continue discussing God's insane lust for blood, why not begin a new thread?

 

Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grinchy, it's obvious you're scaring the crap out of him. That's mean!

 

He's not suicidal - he wouldn't dare go preach the gospel in North Korea or Iran. Let him throw up some chaff so he can eject safely!

[Ouroboros]

(...)

What puppet? Oh you mean God pulling my strings? Afraid not ~ just my Holy Spirit. Your big mind can comprehend that I presume?

I feel like being picky. The Hopy Spirit is God (according to your faith), and it's not "my Holy Spirit", because you don't own "him".

 

I did not mean to justify killing babies ~ it is recorded in one of the books in the Bible. Then I refered you to an explaination. Not justification BUT why God had to do it.

Isn't "why God had to" the same as justifying? You're saying God had to do something, but he wasn't justified to do it? Isn't God (according to you) the source of justice and moral? And God then wasn't justified, then he commited injustice, which means he breaks the rules he makes.

 

And I do not think that abortion is a hobby of un-believers. It's just that, you know... why not read the article again? I don't have any opinions, only borrowed ones. 

Sounds like brainwashing to me!

[crazy-tiger]

The Hopy Spirit is God

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is? I might have stayed in christianity if I'd known there was a Hopy Spirit...

[Ouroboros]

It is? I might have stayed in christianity if I'd known there was a Hopy Spirit...

Whoops!

[Kryten]

Pug, so you are saying...

 

God killed the Amalekite babies because the Amalekite adults were killing Amalekite babies!

 

If that makes your head feel better then go ahead and believe it. Your god is weak and stupid if he can't figure out a better solution than that. Praise Him!

[Ouroboros]

Pug, so you are saying...

 

God killed the Amalekite babies because the Amalekite adults were killing Amalekite babies! 

 

If that makes your head feel better then go ahead and believe it.  Your god is weak and stupid if he can't figure out a better solution than that.  Praise Him!

The beautiful logic of divine beings...

 

It's like having a death penalty on suicides.

[pug]

The beautiful logic of divine beings...

 

It's like having a death penalty on suicides.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yep. Elegant too.

[All Gods Fail]

Yep. Elegant too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

???

[Razor]

Greetings people,

 

Actualy the biggest battle Christians are currently fighting, is getting the true message of the Gospel accross to the congregations in the Churches.

 

There is a false Gospel being taught out there, it is being preached that right standing with God is achieved by works and not by faith in the completed work of the Cross.

A lot of Christians are currently being held in a fear based bondage because of this, Jesus came to free us from the Law which condemns all flesh, not to bind us to the law.

 

Religion is the real enemy here, a man made performance based religion.

 

Right standing with God is achieved by faith in the completed work of the cross by Jesus, not by your own works.

 

Righteousness is a free gift from God, not a wage you can earn.

 

The internet is currently reaching more people than the Church pulpits in this Battle.

 

The will of God can not be thwarted in this battle for truth, to the point of even this forum just being used for that purpose.

 

Thank you by the way.

 

Peace and Love to you all

[Vixentrox]

And YOUR particular sect happens to be the True one. Pfft...

[Razor]

And YOUR particular sect happens to be the True one.  Pfft...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do not attend a church, as you would call it, and in regards to a sect of Christianity, I would classify myself as a believer as Jesus would ask me to Just believe.

 

I have a web page for you to consider in regards to truth of Scripture.

If you are patient and read its content I am sure you would agree that the actual scriptures themselves are real eye openers weather you belive in God or not.

 

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/jteachings/rightwithgod.htm

 

Peace to you