Challenge for Christians - GO and preach!

[Guest queen annie]

Maybe you missed the "otherwise interact with" bit of my post.

Not at all. Depending is interacting--both physically, emotionally, and mentally.

 

  Newborn babies may rely upon something they don't understand, but they rely on its physical presence in their lives.  They interact.

It's more about love than survival. Any physical presence can feed a baby, but not all will nurture a baby. And an un-nurtured baby grows up to be a hate-filled hurting adult.

Rule books and guides are often the same thing.

Not always, though. Guidelines are rules. Tourguides are for the purpose of helping one along a specified path in the more favorable direction, as well as pointing out certain things which might be missed to every passer-by.

 

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Some do.

 

So you think god is just a psychological illusion, not existing anywhere except the minds of humans? 

Are you a lawyer?

If not, you sure missed your calling.

Objection, your Honor--leading the witness.

Sustained.

 

Maybe you should look at some bushmen and try to find out why we are not humanity.

What are you saying? I can't make sense of that sentence--maybe you could elaborate?

 

Yes, but we weren't talking about man causing dissent in religious matters, we were talking about a holy spirit that never seems to say the same thing to any of its followers.

Who says its the same spirit--the Holy one? If there is no unity among those who claim such a thing, then it is not what they think it is--they've been deceived by themselves and by something other than what they claim to have within them. It is not the Holy Spirit that causes dissent--no matter what we choose to call it--man causes division and strife, not God. If you don't believe christianity, there's no reason to believe what those who gather under that umbrella have to say, either. Why would you?

 

I'll hold my breath for that, shall I?

Do as you please, it's not up to me to suggest anything of that nature to you.

I made a general statement--not a suggestion directed at you.

[Vixentrox]

Who says its the same spirit--the Holy one?  If there is no unity among those who claim such a thing, then it is not what they think it is--they've been deceived by themselves and by something other than what they claim to have within them.  It is not the Holy Spirit that causes dissent--no matter what we choose to call it--man causes division and strife, not God. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, pretty much the whole Christain faith is screwed because there is little untiy among the hundreds of splinter Christian faiths.

[Guest queen annie]

Most Christian seems to think THEY are the True Chrsitans and everyone else got it a bit wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh-okay. LOL I thought that was a trait common to all humans--although often showcased in the religious, no doubt.

 

I have to confess, I am human. But as to that which you are saying--I 'm not sure where I fit--because the only way I think anyone can go 'wrong' (although that's a temporary state for anyone, even in it's most severe) is by not listening to the 'within'--preferring to find personal answers among a bunch of other people. It just doesn't work. But that is something I feel very strongly about. I don't want anyone to think what I do because I think I got it right--I only want to encourage any one I know to think for themselves, question all things, root around in all things that come to mind. It's not that I think only I got it right--I know many others have, too. But it's not a matter of being more capable or smarter, or anything like that--it's a process all of us will come out on the other side of--truly liberated. And by getting it right for 'me'--I learned one thing without question--there may be one destination for all travelers--but for every traveler there is a way that is only theirs to travel, and we all must travel alone. Once we get there--then we'll truly be all together.

 

Where is that destination? I sure don't know, because I haven't arrived there, yet. All I can say with certainty is that I'm walking on the path named for me.

 

Conformity is not a good thing, in any case. Conformity requires far less thinking than the average brain is capable of--only by exercising our brain will it reach optimum function and do what it's supposed to do for us. Which is to read our own road-map, so to speak.

 

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I wasn't quite sure how to understand what you were saying. You're very enigmatic. I mean that as a compliment, I think it's cool.

[Cerise]

Not at all.  Depending is interacting--both physically, emotionally, and mentally.

 

If that were true, all deadbeat dad's could say that they were "interacting" with their children, just because their kids show a high level of dependance upon them.

 

It's more about love than survival.  Any physical presence can feed a baby, but not all will nurture a baby.  And an un-nurtured baby grows up to be a hate-filled hurting adult.

 

Mum works a Sick Kids neonate ward. Knows a bunch about babies. Holding a baby to feed it is a physical act. "Nurturing" comes from being held, not from mums saying 'man, I love that baby.' Otherwise all the crack-head moms we get would be great nurturing mothers even though they forget to do something as basic as hold their kid once in a while.

 

An un-fed or un-held baby...dies.

 

Not always, though.  Guidelines are rules.  Tourguides are for the purpose of helping one along a specified path in the more favorable direction, as well as pointing out certain things which might be missed to every passer-by. 

 

Which would you say the bible (Old and New Testament) is like? Tourguide or Rule Book?

 

Some do.

 

Oh quite. Why, just the other day I saw a squeegee kid go by on a Mustang. Had his own lasso out of crime scene tape an everything.

 

Are you a lawyer?   

If not, you sure missed your calling. 

Objection, your Honor--leading the witness.

Sustained.

 

Glad we've established that you've made yourself both the Defense and the Judge. Now we just have to see if you're also the Jury.

 

What are you saying?  I can't make sense of that sentence--maybe you could elaborate?

 

Read Ishmael. We are not humanity.

 

Who says its the same spirit--the Holy one?  If there is no unity among those who claim such a thing, then it is not what they think it is--they've been deceived by themselves and by something other than what they claim to have within them.  It is not the Holy Spirit that causes dissent--no matter what we choose to call it--man causes division and strife, not God.  If you don't believe christianity, there's no reason to believe what those who gather under that umbrella have to say, either.  Why would you?

 

Could it be that only man causes dissent and strife because there is no one else? Because there is no such thing as a "holy spirit" or "god" to begin with?

 

Do as you please, it's not up to me to suggest anything of that nature to you.

I made a general statement--not a suggestion directed at you.

 

Then generally, I think you and Amanda shall be great friends.

[pug]

We're doing it...

 

 

Teaching a lesson

INDONESIA: West Java court makes examples of three Sunday school teachers | by Priya Abraham

 

If Indonesian radicals are keeping a tally of their wins and losses, the first two weeks of September delivered one of each. On Sept. 13 a court handed down a death sentence for a terrorist who helped plan and execute a suicide bombing that killed 10 at Jakarta's Australian embassy last year—a rare verdict compared to sentencing of terrorists in the West. By contrast, radical Muslims won a case that is little known but could be menacing for the archipelago's minority Christians.

 

On Sept. 1 a West Java court gave three-year sentences to three Sunday school teachers for including Muslim children in their local church program, called Happy Sunday. More specifically, the court convicted the three women under Indonesia's Child Protection Act of 2002, which prohibits influencing children to convert to a different religion. The convictions amplify a Muslim drive against church activities. But it also sets a worrying precedent.

 

It's the first time these laws have been used this way, said Jeff Hammond, a theological lecturer in Jakarta. "It means any Christian anywhere in the country who has a Muslim attend their activities could be accused of proselytization and Christianization."

 

The three Javan women—Rebekka Zakaria, Eti Pangesti, and Ratna Bangun—were careful. Their Muslim Sunday school students received written permission from their parents allowing them to join, those who did not were turned away, and the church snapped photographs of the parents and children together. But in an unfair trial flooded with obstreperous Muslim radicals, the evidence meant little.

 

During a trial that lasted two months, Muslim radicals arrived in truckloads threatening to kill witnesses, judges, and defendants if the women were acquitted. One truck even bore a coffin, a belligerent reminder of how the radicals would apply Islamic justice if the court declared the women innocent. After hearing the verdict, the radicals burst into shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" or "God is great!"

 

While the Sunday school teacher trial in Indramayu garnered slight attention, it did attract a plea from former Indonesian president Abdurrahman Wahid. He wrote to the local police in Hargeulis, Indramayu, West Java, in May protesting how authorities were handling the women's case. Amazingly, police largely ignored his letter.

 

Mr. Hammond visits the women in prison regularly and said they remain in good spirits. Each is a housewife worried about being separated from her children, but they all hope an appeal due within three months will win them justice.

 

The trial, meanwhile, could be a small effort in a larger campaign to crack down on churches. Church closings are accelerating: 150 in West Java in the last three years, with about 60 in western and central Java in the last two months alone. Behind them is the national radical association, the Indonesian Council of Ulema, or MUI, the highest Islamic authority in the country.

 

Large Muslim movements are influential in Indonesia, promoting Islam while performing social services. Government funding for social services—about $600,000 a year, according to the Jubilee Campaign—gives MUI its teeth. In July MUI leaders issued 11 fatwas, which included renewing a decades-long ban on a moderate Islamic group and ruling that praying only in Arabic, not Indonesian, is permissible in mosques.

 

In West Java, MUI relies on a 1969 law requiring government-issued permits for religious buildings. In practice, Christians nationwide have found it virtually impossible to obtain the permits. One example of an obstacle, Mr. Hammond explained, is that the law requires Christians to obtain signed approval from neighborhood residents for a church building. Church leaders find that before they have time to request permission, radicals have already threatened Muslims: Sign, and your life is at risk.

 

With the courts confirming that Indonesians are bombing Westerners, Mr. Hammond speculates that local radicals are embarrassed by evidence that Islam is fueling global terrorism. "This rise in attacking churches could be a reaction to try and show that the Christian religion violates the law by having illegal church services," he told WORLD. The headline-grabbing terror conviction, oddly, masks what could be a more commonplace campaign by Muslim radicals to thwart Christian activity.

 

•

 

Copyright © 2005 WORLD Magazine

September 24, 2005, Vol. 20, No. 37

[Vigile]

We're doing it...

Copyright © 2005 WORLD Magazine

September 24, 2005, Vol. 20, No. 37

 

All I see here is that three local christian women were arrested for teaching their faith. How does this prove that CHRISTIANS, specifically western, are going into the world, forsaking everything, picking up their crosses and subjecting themselves to persecution? And more importantly, what are you yourself doing? One or two missionaries out of thousands who stay behind in their comfort zones does not fulfill the command of the great commission presented to all believers.

[Vigile]

Vigile, are you feeling a wee bit generous today?  I think you saying "thousands" is overly generous seeings how there are what, a billion PROFESSING Christians?  Thank goodness Jesus gave such an explicit definition in Mark 16 on the sign of a true believer.  Guess there are NONE! 

 

Yes, perhaps they caught me in a charitable mood.

[pug]

All I see here is that three local christian women were arrested for teaching their faith.  How does this prove that CHRISTIANS, specifically western, are going into the world, forsaking everything, picking up their crosses and subjecting themselves to persecution?  And more importantly, what are you yourself doing?  One or two missionaries out of thousands who stay behind in their comfort zones does not fulfill the command of the great commission presented to all believers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're right, the missionaries are slacking a bit aren't they? They used to convert them by the thousands in China in the 1800's. Anyway IMO, making up the numbers is pointless. Being converted is the easy thing, staying on course is so much harder. When I get the calling from God, I will drop every thing and go and look you up. You'll be the first i will un-convert.

 

Ahhhh ha kidding, can't do that if ya don't want to believe. Just hope He touches you.

[Vigile]

Ahhhh ha kidding, can't do that if ya don't want to believe. Just hope He touches you.

 

You're welcome to try. I'll even buy the beer.

[Checkmate]

You're right, the missionaries are slacking a bit aren't they? They used to convert them by the thousands in China in the 1800's. Anyway IMO, making up the numbers is pointless. Being converted is the easy thing, staying on course is so much harder. When I get the calling from God, I will drop every thing and go and look you up. You'll be the first i will un-convert.

 

Ahhhh ha kidding, can't do that if ya don't want to believe. Just hope He touches you.

Hello, pug.

 

In response to your comment, and to echo the lovely and gracious Serenity Now, I'd like to call your attention to the original post and what I said therein,

 

Don’t hide behind any feeble excuses such as, “But God hasn’t called me!”

 

Nonsense! Not only is every believer “called” to do this, but “Jesus” COMMANDED IT! He said “GO into the world”, not send out prayer requests and satellite TV transmissions!

 

So…what’s the hold up?

 

You see, I'm not accepting excuses. I'm looking for ACTION. And if you can't walk the walk, then please quit talking the talk.

 

Sermons mean NOTHING to me. I'd like to be witness to a Tsunami of "Christians" selflessly fullfilling the Great Commission. Don't show me a "few" going into the world, and a LOT hanging out at the newest "Mega Church" slavishly listening to the latest "word" from God.

 

I want to see an army of Mark 16 Christians preaching and healing and casting out demons and taking swords in the neck for "Jesus"!

 

Can you do that, please? If not, sit down and join the rest of us "heretics".

[pug]

Hello, pug.

 

In response to your comment, and to echo the lovely and gracious Serenity Now, I'd like to call your attention to the original post and what I said therein,

 

Don’t hide behind any feeble excuses such as, “But God hasn’t called me!”

 

Nonsense! Not only is every believer “called” to do this, but “Jesus” COMMANDED IT! He said “GO into the world”, not send out prayer requests and satellite TV transmissions!

 

So…what’s the hold up?

 

You see, I'm not accepting excuses. I'm looking for ACTION. And if you can't walk the walk, then please quit talking the talk.

 

Sermons mean NOTHING to me. I'd like to be witness to a Tsunami of "Christians" selflessly fullfilling the Great Commission. Don't show me a "few" going into the world, and a LOT hanging out at the newest "Mega Church" slavishly listening to the latest "word" from God.

 

I want to see an army of Mark 16 Christians preaching and healing and casting out demons and taking swords in the neck for "Jesus"!

 

Can you do that, please? If not, sit down and join the rest of us "heretics".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm sitting down but still a follower of Christ.

[Checkmate]

I'm sitting down but still a follower of Christ.

Whatever, pug. You do as you please. I know the truth. I just hope you aren't too devastated when YOU learn the truth like the rest of us.

 

Peace out.

[pug]

Whatever, pug.  You do as you please.  I know the truth.  I just hope you aren't too devastated when YOU learn the truth like the rest of us. 

 

Peace out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Noted, Mr. Grinch. Thanks for the warning.

[pug]

Are you?  When I played follow the leader as a child if I sat down, I wasn't playing the game.  How can one who doesn't do as the leader, be a follower?  You are aware of the definition of "follower" aren't you?  I'd love to give it to you....

 

Follower  - NOUN (person, place, thing or idea)

1 a : one in the service of another : RETAINER b : one that follows the opinions or teachings of another c : one that imitates another

 

Nodding your head in agreement doesn't make you a "follower" of Christ, you have to be a doer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. Now how in the world can you "see" i'm not a doer?

2. Sitting is not doing?

3. Following is not doing?

4. Posting/replying all your enlightening posts is not doing?

 

You are aware... oh, never mind.

[Ouroboros]

We're doing it...

Have you been on any mission trips yet? Have you gone to India, China or Korea?

[Ouroboros]

When I get the calling from God, I will drop every thing and go and look you up. You'll be the first i will un-convert.

So you have never been on mission trips?

 

Ahhhh ha kidding, can't do that if ya don't want to believe. Just hope He touches you.

Wrong. I want to believe, but just can't. Big difference that you can't understand.

[Ouroboros]

I'm sitting down but still a follower of Christ.

 

(Mat 7:26 KJVA)

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

(Mar 16:17-18 KJVA)

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Are you a foolish man?

[pug]

(Mat 7:26 KJVA)

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

(Mar 16:17-18 KJVA)

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

Are you a foolish man?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Whatever my God has gifted to me I'll just have to make the best of it. Salad bar believer and foolish as I am ~ I'm afraid I'll be a very poor evangelist.

 

But it is still early, for me anyway.

[pug]

Wrong. I want to believe, but just can't. Big difference that you can't understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You want to believe but you can't? I can't understand? Try me ~ use simple words.

[pug]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

right now if Jesus were to come you'd be one of the evildoers that goes to hell.

 

 

I love and believe in Jesus and He sents me to hell? Well, if it is His will, so be it.

 

And you? A believer, now a non-believer?

[pug]

Praying for persecution

Chinese Christians have a slightly different idea of how God blesses | by Gene Edward Veith

 

 

How should American Christians pray for the church in China? So asked the reporter from the Baptist mission board, ending his interview with a leader of the Chinese house-church movement.

 

His subject answered, "Stop praying for persecution in China to end." He added, "It is through persecution that the church has grown."

 

The leader of the underground church then added something else: "We, in fact, are praying that the American church might taste the same persecution so revival would come to the American church like we have seen in China."

 

James Draper, the president of the Southern Baptist bookstore chain LifeWay who recounts the incident in a column with Baptist Press, notes the irony: "We in America keep praying for God to bless us"—with success, prosperity, political clout, and booming churches—"and Christians in other nations are praying God will allow us to experience persecution so that we'll act like the blessing we were made to be."

 

What did the Chinese leader—who constantly faces arrest for evangelizing and worshipping—mean? It is certainly true, both in China and throughout church history, that the greatest periods of church growth have been times of persecution, or at least cultural hostility.

 

This happened most dramatically in the Roman Empire. After Rome fell, the European barbarians first martyred the missionaries before finally accepting their message. During the Reformation, the gospel spread like fire while those who preached it were burned at the stake.

 

In more recent times, though falling short of overt persecution, the church has flourished in times of cultural hostility. At the height of the Enlightenment, with its anti-supernatural rationalism, John Wesley sparked the Methodist revival and America had its Great Awakening. The age of Modernism, which was expected to eliminate religion altogether, gave us the evangelical movement. Conversely, times of cultural conformity—the late Middle Ages, today—show the church at its worst.

 

Persecution does not always create growth in numbers, as is evident in Islamic countries. But it does eliminate nominal believers who only go to church for cultural approval. The church members remaining, who are willing to endure suffering for their Christianity, demonstrate a faith that seems particularly real, and particularly persuasive to nonbelievers. We blithely speak of "witnessing to our faith," by which we mean just telling someone about Jesus. The Greek word for "witness" is martyr.

 

So, if persecution has been good for Christianity, does this mean we should cultivate martyrdom? Not at all. It was good that Rome finally legalized Christianity (though this would have unintended bad consequences). Today we should work to promote religious freedom around the world, including China. And we should resist—while we can—the assaults on that freedom in our own country. Nor should individual Christians try to turn themselves into "martyrs" through obnoxious or illegal behavior.

 

The Reformers made it clear that "self-chosen" suffering—as in asceticism, self-flagellation, and purposefully getting in trouble—has no spiritual value and can contribute to works righteousness and hypocrisy. But suffering that we do not want, enduring trials and tribulations out of our control, can be a refining fire, forcing us to depend ever more on Christ.

 

Despite the clear teachings of the Bible, many of us actually think God has abandoned us when we go through difficulties, failures, and sorrows. We expect one glorious victory after another and are disconcerted when Jesus sends us a cross to bear.

 

We American Christians have become so prosperous, so successful, so optimistic that we have become spiritually soft and thus ineffective. The Chinese churchman sees that we could use the bitter medicine of persecution.

 

So when you find yourself struggling with hardship and opposition, or, even more so, when you are exulting in your success and popularity, remember: Someone in China is praying for you.

 

 

Copyright © 2005 WORLD Magazine

October 1, 2005, Vol. 20, No. 38

[LadyFeline]

You want to believe but you can't? I can't understand? Try me ~ use simple words.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Pardon me, don't take this post as any personal offense. I really am just this mean to a lot of people.

 

It isn't the words we have a problem with, you nit. The words are as clear as day - and that's part of the problem .

 

It's the concepts that cannot be explained. A "loving, compasisonate" God that knowingly created evil, knowingly introduced it to the world... Who ordered rape victims to be stoned to death alongside, or forcibly married to, their attacker... Who ordained that "disobediant" children should be murdered at the gates of their city... Who butchered all of Job's family, took away everything that one pitiful man had, all on a dare from Satan. Who supposedly said that all who never heard "his word" would suffer for all eternity.

 

That is not "loving and compassionate". That is hateful and vindictive.

 

Jesus Christ himself said that he came to start wars. To turn fathers against sons and son-in-laws, mothers against daughters and daughter-in-laws. Who told his followers to hate the people who should be their closest loved ones - or else they could not be his follower.

 

How can Christians say that there is any good in that horrid book, after reading it?

 

Oh wait, that's right. They skip over the "unpleasant" parts. The parts where a man's concubine is raped to death, and summarily butchered like just another piece of livestock. The parts where a follower of God burned his daughter as a sacrifice to heaven. The parts where one man offered his own daughter to a pack of bloodthristy rapists. Every single part that they don't "like" is conveniently ignored - all but written out of the book. And, what was it said in Revelations... Ah, yes, "Do not add to, nor subtract from, this book". Tsk, tsk... too bad. By being a "salad bar believer", you are, in effect, subtracting from your own holy book. How sad.

 

But explain to me - where is the "morality" in all of these things? These, the very same concepts that drove the majority of us from your rattletrap, scare-tactic religion.

[Ouroboros]

You want to believe but you can't? I can't understand? Try me ~ use simple words.

It can't be said any simplier.

 

I wish Santa Claus existed, so he could give the kids presents at X-mas. But I know he doesn't exist.

 

Do you understand now?

 

I wish there was a God that answered prayers, but there isn't.

 

There might be a God that started the universe, the first mover, but still, I haven't found any convincing arguments for believing so.

 

I wish I had a lot of money, but I don't.

 

It's interesting that you can't understand, it proves how wide that gap is between us two.

 

But I've been where you are, but you haven't been where I am, but still you like you judge my life, without having any insight into it.

[All Gods Fail]

Now this is a fucked up article. Lemme address a few of the zanier 'points'.

 

Praying for persecution

Chinese Christians have a slightly different idea of how God blesses | by Gene Edward Veith

 

 

How should American Christians pray for the church in China? So asked the reporter from the Baptist mission board, ending his interview with a leader of the Chinese house-church movement.

 

His subject answered, "Stop praying for persecution in China to end." He added, "It is through persecution that the church has grown."

 

The leader of the underground church then added something else: "We, in fact, are praying that the American church might taste the same persecution so revival would come to the American church like we have seen in China."

 

James Draper, the president of the Southern Baptist bookstore chain LifeWay who recounts the incident in a column with Baptist Press, notes the irony: "We in America keep praying for God to bless us"—with success, prosperity, political clout, and booming churches—"and Christians in other nations are praying God will allow us to experience persecution so that we'll act like the blessing we were made to be."

 

I dunno - I'd like to see the transcripts for that interview. For some reason, the bs alarms are going off. But since I can't verify, I'll let it slide.

 

This happened most dramatically in the Roman Empire. After Rome fell, the European barbarians first martyred the missionaries before finally accepting their message. During the Reformation, the gospel spread like fire while those who preached it were burned at the stake.

 

Hmm. That's a rather glib version of the early church history. It doesn't mention, for example, that Martin Luther and his gang of thugs also approved of burning witches, heretics, scientists, etc. Luther didn't want to appear 'soft' on heresy. Also, the gospel was well known by the time of the Reformation - the Catholic version, of course. Obviously written by Proddies!

 

In more recent times, though falling short of overt persecution, the church has flourished in times of cultural hostility.

 

Um, falling damn short of persecution. They come pretty close to being persecutors themselves, these days.

 

At the height of the Enlightenment, with its anti-supernatural rationalism, John Wesley sparked the Methodist revival and America had its Great Awakening. The age of Modernism, which was expected to eliminate religion altogether, gave us the evangelical movement. Conversely, times of cultural conformity—the late Middle Ages, today—show the church at its worst.

 

Yes, faith will protect you against reason and enlightenment. Those things are hard, and thinking too much is a no-no for a believer. However, let's be thankful at least our Founding Fathers followed the Enlightenment more than the bible.

 

Persecution does not always create growth in numbers, as is evident in Islamic countries. But it does eliminate nominal believers who only go to church for cultural approval. The church members remaining, who are willing to endure suffering for their Christianity, demonstrate a faith that seems particularly real, and particularly persuasive to nonbelievers. We blithely speak of "witnessing to our faith," by which we mean just telling someone about Jesus. The Greek word for "witness" is martyr.

 

Actually, a pretty good point. It's not too plainly disguised as a pointed barb at 'weak tea' xers who aren't willing to die (or maybe kill) for Jesus, but it's something to think about. Persecution does eliminate the posers.

 

In Islamic countries, tho, there is a lot less social confusion. Islam has been that region's cultural identity for many centuries, where as China has a kind of chaotic cultural stew boiling. Communism did make a lot of people non-believers, but the Commies threw the baby out with the bath. They destroyed much of their own heritage and culture, and tried to replace it with socialist dogma. Now they're paying the price.

 

Theroux was right when he said the problem with the Chinese is they never know when to stop.

 

So, if persecution has been good for Christianity, does this mean we should cultivate martyrdom? Not at all. It was good that Rome finally legalized Christianity (though this would have unintended bad consequences). Today we should work to promote religious freedom around the world, including China. And we should resist—while we can—the assaults on that freedom in our own country. Nor should individual Christians try to turn themselves into "martyrs" through obnoxious or illegal behavior.

 

This is a weird bit. One the one hand, the article is saying 'let's not get carried away - no need to be killed as a martyr in some Islamic or Communist nation'. They can't be killed as martyrs here or in any other christian nation of course. Instead, they should sit back, re-elect the neocons and let them send troops to other foreign nations and conquer them, then we can creep in relatively safe and start bossing people around.

 

But then he implies that religious freedom is under assault in this country. I guess he must be referring to the born-again president's agenda to destroy the wall of church/state separation, since that could lead to loss of religious freedom as well as loss of democracy. :wink:

 

 

The Reformers made it clear that "self-chosen" suffering—as in asceticism, self-flagellation, and purposefully getting in trouble—has no spiritual value and can contribute to works righteousness and hypocrisy. But suffering that we do not want, enduring trials and tribulations out of our control, can be a refining fire, forcing us to depend ever more on Christ.

 

That's a little vague - 'suffering that we don't want' could include disease, poverty, a crappy job, etc. Nobody but nutjobs and religious fanatics want to suffer.

 

I would suppose he meant persecution of some kind, but again - the worst 'persecution' xers suffer in the west is maybe not being invited to dinner parties because of their obnoxious proselytizing. So any kind of suffering will do, including the kind of suffering everybody goes through in life. Not sure exactly what his point is here - 'don't go out and get in trouble for Jesus', but instead 'rejoice in your own personal suffering'? That's fucked up.

 

Despite the clear teachings of the Bible, many of us actually think God has abandoned us when we go through difficulties, failures, and sorrows. We expect one glorious victory after another and are disconcerted when Jesus sends us a cross to bear.

 

We American Christians have become so prosperous, so successful, so optimistic that we have become spiritually soft and thus ineffective. The Chinese churchman sees that we could use the bitter medicine of persecution.

 

I love how xers always use the word 'prosperous' instead of 'rich'. Pat Robertson and his diamond mines are examples of his 'prosperity'. He's not 'rich'. as in can't-go-through-the-eye-of-a-needle.

 

I would say American xers have become fat, corrupt, power mongers with an eye on overthrowing democracy, myself.

 

And when he says 'spiritually soft' and 'ineffective', again this is in terms of American xer policy - we need to 'spread religious freedom' to the poor saps in persecuted countries, via bombs and US soldiers.

 

So when you find yourself struggling with hardship and opposition, or, even more so, when you are exulting in your success and popularity, remember: Someone in China is praying for you.

 

And we close with a nice little jab of guilt. This article is basically a way to keep the sheep in line, along the lines of a mother telling her kid to eat his carrots because they're starving in Africa.

 

See how much better off you are in this christian nation, where we have religious freedom (that's constantly under attack by the forces of evil)? If you want to keep it that way, and have a Marine get killed instead of you, you'd better keep politicizing your faith.

 

Honestly, the self-martyrdom of self-centered, self-seeking xers in this country is disgusting.

[pug]

You: So what's up with this, man? It sounds to me like your God is a regular butcher here -- slaughtering kids, women, and pets -- total disregard for even the basic standards of the Geneva Conventions!

 

Me: What initially may sound rather atrocious becomes a lot more understandable when you hear the other side of the story.

 

You: Which is...

 

Me: Which is -- in a fallen, evil world (unlike the one that God created), there are seldom any really happy alternatives. What God eventually condoned here as necessary is certainly not what he originally envisioned as ideal.

 

But let me ask you a few questions. Would you ever think it justifiable to put two teenage boys in the scope of a rifle and pull the trigger? Does that sound unthinkable, atrocious, and absolutely unjustifiable? Well, what if those teenage boys' names were Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris? Few folks would condemn the SWAT officers who did that very thing at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999.

 

You: So you're comparing lots of innocent Amalekite babies to two brutal Columbine murderers?

 

Me: Well, what is clear from history is that these so-called innocent Amalekite babies were part of a self-perpetuating system of evil that often defied description. There are many reasons to believe that these babies represented a rising generation of Mohammed Attas, Osama bin Ladens, and Adolf Hitlers.

 

Ancient sects and nations like the Amalekites would often heat up an idol like Molech with fire until it was glowing. Then they would take their newborn babies, place them on the arms of the idol, and watch them burn to death. (Source: New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale, 1962.) At other times they would kill disabled, weak, and elderly people without so much as a second thought (Deuteronomy 25:17-18).

 

In The Case for Faith (Zondervan, 2000), author Lee Strobel poses a question similar to the one you've asked. He says:

 

[1 Samuel 15:3] sounds more like a violent and brutal God than a loving one. How can people be expected to worship him if he orders innocent children to be slaughtered?

 

 

Apologist Norman Geisler responds,

 

[The Amalekites] were not nice people. In fact, there were utterly and totally depraved. Their mission was to destroy Israel. In other words, to commit genocide... The destruction of their nation was necessitated by the gravity of their sin. Had some hardcore remnant survived, they might have resumed their aggression against the Israelites and God's plan.

 

You: Are you saying that the end justifies the means -- that their killing some babies justifies God killing more babies?

 

Me: In many cases, innocent people do inevitably suffer when justice is being wrought. But aside from that, when the Righteous Judge of the universe is sitting on the bench, any means that He may choose to use is self-justified. After all, He is the very creator and sustainer of human life.

 

Still, there's more to the story here than mere punishment for wickedness. In a scenario not unlike America's 2001-2002 role in Afghanistan, God was using Israel at this time to "clean house" in a world gone awry.

 

R.C. Sproul says this in Now That's a Good Question (Tyndale, 1996):

 

God said to Israel, "I am using you here in this war as an instrument of my judgment upon this nation, and I'm bringing my violence upon this unbelievably wicked people... I'm going to have them destroyed" (Deuteronomy 13:12-17).

 

He said, "I am calling you out of my grace to be a holy nation. I'm tearing down in order to build something new, and out of what I build new, a holy nation, I'm going to bless all of the peoples in the world. Therefore, I want you to be separated, and I don't want any of the influences of this pagan heritage to be mixed into my new nation that I'm establishing."

 

That is the reason (God) gives.

 

You: Wasn't God harsher in ancient times, and more loving today?

 

Me: Josh McDowell and Don Stewart in Answers to Tough Questions (Here's Life Publishers, 1980):

 

...when the two testaments are read as they were intended, they reveal the same holy God who is rich in mercy, but who will not let sin go unpunished.

 

 

 

Author: Daryl E. Witmer of AIIA Institute.

Text copyright © 2004, AIIA Institute, All Rights Reserved - except as noted on attached "Usage and Copyright" page that grants ChristianAnswers.Net users generous rights for putting this page to work in their homes, personal witnessing, churches and schools.

 

Other sources and recommended resources:

 

Greg Boyd, Letters from a Skeptic (Victor/SP Publications, 1994).

R.C. Sproul, The Holiness of God (Ligonier Ministries).

Dave Hunt, In Defense of the Faith (Harvest House Publishers, 1996).

 

Learn more on-line at ChristianAnswers.Net:

 

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