Challenge for Christians - GO and preach!

[Jay]

Not trying to be flippant, but...SO?  What has this got to do with ME and my observations?  This "commercial Christianity" is an INTERNAL dilemma for the CHURCH.  That is something YOU must attend to.

It is something i can do nothing about, just like I can do nothing about the fact that the President of this country launched an invasion on a country that did not attack us, and now, we will be committed to cleaning up the mess for decades.

As has been noted by others, "Who in the USA has NOT heard the name of 'Jesus Christ'?"  I defy you to find ANYONE above the age of four who hasn't been bombarded with X-Mas stories of a virgin birth in the manger, and the Easter resurrection tale.

Yes, many have heard. But some have improper perceptions of Christianity, mainly because of corrupt teaching from Christians. So, the job here is far from done.

THIS is why YOU should be expending YOUR efforts abroad, and not wasting time in "fruitless debate", arguing about words and "endless geneologies" with an apostate atheist like myself and my compadres.  (IF I ever wanted to return to Christ, I already know where to find "him".)

hehe...I did not know we were arguing about words and endless geneologies, but I appreciate your concern and advice. I have considered it, and decided not to follow it.

So you see, the problem is not that you need to further evangelize here in the USA.  THAT mission has been accomplished.

If that is true, then who do so-called Christian organizations spend many millions of dollars attempting to enact legislation? No, I believe there is plenty of evangelization that can be done here.

People KNOW all ABOUT your "Jesus".  Is this knowledge accurate?  Probably not.  But there is NOTHING preventing anyone from finding out at their leisure.  THIS situation does NOT call for further evangelism, just education.  Again, AN INTERNAL CHURCH MATTER.

Yes, and some of us are called to that task.

[Jay]

What you (the Church) have failed to accomplish is to "teach them everything I have commanded you."  You have not "made disciples" of those who have come to you.

 

The problem is within YOUR church, and those professing to know Christ.  (As YOU continue to lament.)

I agree, and I do lament.

So, again, how is this MY problem?

I never said it was. You are claiming that I have a problem. I made no such claim about you.

And why do I need to keep hearing about American street evangelism efforts?  Can you REALLY believe anyone in this country hasn't heard you YET?

There are a lot that haven't heard ME, and I humbly suggest that my message is not what most have heard.

In summary, after you Xians fix yourself and become REAL, what will you do?  Stay here and preach "Christ" where he's ALREADY been preached?  Or will you GO INTO THE WORLD?

It depends. It is impossible fore me to properly answer a hypothetical question like that.

And, Jay, lest you attempt to tap dance and say that the KOSMOS includes the USA, let me remind you of what happened in the book of Acts.  Jesus's disciples were CONTENT to believe their KOSMOS was Jerusalem.  That's when the Lord sicced Saul of Tarsus on them to FORCE them to move elsewhere and spread the message.

Christians, by their calling in Christ, have numerous tasks. One is evangelizing in other parts of the world. Some of us, however, also have the task of caring for the poor here. That is what I do right now.

As has been said by preachers, "If we don't do Acts 1:8, we will suffer Acts 8:1".

Never heard that, but it is obviously a bad use of scripture.

[Jay]

You keep telling yourself that Jay.  Makes sitting in front of Court TV seem ok.

My, my, my...how quickly we move to the ad hominem. fyi, I have not watched television for over 20 years.

[Checkmate]

Okay, enough of the bullspit! I'm tired of all the verbal hair-splitting, equivocating, vacillating and masturbating! Let's quit arguing semantics and "bible interpretations" and get down to brass fucking tacks.

 

Jay (and any other Xian out there), here's a SIMPLE scenario and a question:

 

YOU, the "True Christian"™, are HERE, in America. Into YOUR church walks a muslim. They ask YOU what it means to be saved. YOU tell them. They say they WANT to be saved. They believe in your Jesus. And want to be saved before they return to Saudi Arabia, to their extremist, Fundamentalist Muslim family.

 

Q: Would you lead them in a "prayer of salvation" (or whatever it is YOU do to land your fish), KNOWING that, when they return home with this "good news", they will most assuredly be killed for betraying "Allah"?

 

Would you do this? YES or NO? Don't play games. Just answer the question.

[dogmatically_challenged]

You keep telling yourself that Jay.  Makes sitting in front of Court TV seem ok.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea. It would be nice if some xers had more integrity than ambulance chasing lawyers.

 

Jay Wrote:

That's right.hehe...apparently, anyone who does not believe exactly as you do, you consider to be stupid.

Yes...the word "nations" in the above is the Greek word ethnos and means people groups, not specific geographic locations.

 

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all PEOPLES, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

 

Ethnic denotes race there sherlock. Ethnos ---> Ethnic. And the further back in time we go Nations were made up of one ethnic people. Sides who the heck are you to criticize the translations of experts? What are your credentials buster?

 

Cretin should be a word that describes dishonest people. Xers only act stupid because they are self decieving. Dishonest.

[Checkmate]

Jay-

There are a lot that haven't heard ME, and I humbly suggest that my message is not what most have heard.

 

Whoa! Talk about an egotistical statement!

 

Watch out world! Brother Jay is going to accomplish what Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon NEVER could!

 

Dude, since you believe you are "all that and a bag of chips", then you definitely need to quit wasting your talents HERE, and hit the pavement with YOUR special message that the rest of us peons never heard!

 

Woo boy! Talk about a "messiah complex"!

 

P.S. - You might want to consider dropping the "humble" part of your arrogant statement. It's quite unbelievable. Sheez!

[dogmatically_challenged]

My, my, my...how quickly we move to the ad hominem.  fyi, I have not watched television for over 20 years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Soak it up and never use ad homs as an excuse to not match folks point for point if that is your next move.

 

Filter out the adhoms and address the meat to our points...if there are any. Sometimes I just rant. But not always. Same with some others here. Not that on this page of the thread that I have not seen any meat in the adhoms. I see good points being made here by heathens.

[dogmatically_challenged]

oops.

[Jay]

YOU, the "True Christian", are HERE, in America.  Into YOUR church walks a muslim.  They ask YOU what it means to be saved.  YOU tell them.  They say they WANT to be saved.  They believe in your Jesus.  And want to be saved before they return to Saudi Arabia, to their extremist, Fundamentalist Muslim family.

 

Q: Would you lead them in a "prayer of salvation" (or whatever it is YOU do to land your fish), KNOWING that, when they return home with this "good news", they will most assuredly be killed for betraying "Allah"?

 

Would you do this?

Well, I don't do the "prayer of salvation" thing, but the simple answer to your question is, "Yes."

[Jay]

Sides who the heck are you to criticize the translations of experts? What are your credentials buster?

Three years of formal Koine Greek.

 

And, if you hadn't noticed, there are about as many translations out there as there opinions about anything.

[Jay]

Jay-

Whoa!  Talk about an egotistical statement!

 

Watch out world!  Brother Jay is going to accomplish what Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon NEVER could! 

 

Dude, since you believe you are "all that and a bag of chips", then you definitely need to quit wasting your talents HERE, and hit the pavement with YOUR special message that the rest of us peons never heard! 

 

Woo boy!  Talk about a "messiah complex"!

 

P.S. - You might want to consider dropping the "humble" part of your arrogant statement.  It's quite unbelievable.  Sheez!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see we are going for ad hominem, ad nauseum...

[dogmatically_challenged]

Three years of formal Koine Greek.

 

And, if you hadn't noticed, there are about as many translations out there as there opinions about anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not good enough.

 

You don't measure up to bible peddlers. Maybe your more honest..maybe..but you aint got their credentials.

 

But kudos for learning the greek and questioning authority.

[Jay]

Soak it up and never use ad homs as an excuse to not match folks point for point if that is your next move.

If there was some point in that post, I would have addressed it. It was nothing more than a two sentence ad hominem attack. I am really disappointed. I see the level of discourse here has deteriorated significantly. I miss Rameus.

 

Filter out the adhoms and address the meat to our points...if there are any. Sometimes I just rant. But not always. Same with some others here. Not that on this page of the thread that I have not seen any meat in the adhoms. I see good points being made here by heathens.

Perhaps you have not been keeping up, but I think I have been doing pretty well addressing things point by point. You may disagree, but I have been providing answers to the questions directed at me.

[Jay]

Not good enough.

 

You don't measure up to bible peddlers. Maybe your more honest..maybe..but you aint got their credentials.

 

But kudos for learning the greek and questioning authority.

Thank you for the compliment. And I am sorry my training does not suffice for you. It was 18 years ago, and I have continued to do self-study during that time. However, I understand. You likely want people with letters after their names, and I have none to offer.

 

Of course, Bill Frist is a doctor, and he claimed to be able to diagnose Teri Schiavo via television monitor.

 

So, maybe letters after one's name don't mean too much...

[dogmatically_challenged]

If there was some point in that post, I would have addressed it.  It was nothing more than a two sentence ad hominem attack.  I am really disappointed.  I see the level of discourse here has deteriorated significantly.  I miss Rameus.

 

Filter out the adhoms and address the meat to our points...if there are any. Sometimes I just rant. But not always. Same with some others here. Not that on this page of the thread that I have not seen any meat in the adhoms. I see good points being made here by heathens.

Perhaps you have not been keeping up, but I think I have been doing pretty well addressing things point by point. You may disagree, but I have been providing answers to the questions directed at me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah. Your just slippery is all. Be'ens your so much an expert and an intellectual in xianity and the whole bloody mythology and all you could at least address all points and explain why they are stupid points. Why leave us in our ignorance there hoss?

 

I was just reminding you that we can rant, yet have good points. I am hoping your next move isn't to just totally ignore the hardest points to deal with in this thread.

 

Coarse I might just be acting like a total jerk here. er.. I dunno.

[Checkmate]

I see we are going for ad hominem, ad nauseum...

 

I see "we" need a dictionary. What I said was a simple commentary on YOU. I did not disregard a statement of fact of yours, based upon who you are. (i.e. "X is wrong, because Jay said it.") Did I do that? I don't see it.

 

At best, you can accuse me of insulting your character. (Guilty as charged! )

[dogmatically_challenged]

Thank you for the compliment.  And I am sorry my training does not suffice for you.  It was 18 years ago, and I have continued to do self-study during that time.  However, I understand.  You likely want people with letters after their names, and I have none to offer.

 

Of course, Bill Frist is a doctor, and he claimed to be able to diagnose Teri Schiavo via television monitor.

 

So, maybe letters after one's name don't mean too much...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mostly good points hoss. Still it takes more than language to have understanding in ancient peoples. Of coarse langauge is a damn good start.

 

And BTW I have no greek what so ever. hehe. But my questions were good ones.

[Jay]

I see "we" need a dictionary.  What I said was a simple commentary on YOU.  I did not disregard a statement of fact of yours, based upon who you are.  (i.e. "X is wrong, because Jay said it.")  Did I do that?  I don't see it.

 

At best, you can accuse me of insulting your character.  (Guilty as charged! )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whatever, dude. What I find really interesting is the readiness in which some of you jump to the personal attack. I have come here in peace, and I have not attacked you personally at all. I have not called you any names or made fun of you. You asked some serious questions (at least I thought you were serious about wanting answers...perhaps you were not), and I answered them the best I could.

 

Why you feel insults to be necessary is unclear, but to help you out with ad hominem, you might want to look here.

 

I thought we were having a discussion about the issues you raised. Perhaps I was wrong. Or, perhaps one aspect of being an Ex-Christian is the irresistable urge to insult people. If that is the case, I pray that I never become one...

[dogmatically_challenged]

Gods Jay, your an old fart. I didn't know. I'll treat you slightly different due to the 'possibility' of more experience.

 

hehe.

 

 

------------------------------------------------

BAAWA: Bad Ass Atheist With Attitude! hehe.

[Checkmate]

Well, I don't do the "prayer of salvation" thing, but the simple answer to your question is, "Yes."

 

Okay. That was simple. It's really easy to throw away soemone ELSE'S life, isn't it?

 

Now, a different scenario.

 

Same people, different location. YOU are now neck deep in Saudi Arabia. Muslim territory. Surrounded by this same person's family in a public place. No church of America to hide in.

 

Q: With the family as witnesses, are YOU willing to preach the gospel to this person, WHO WANTS TO HEAR IT AND BE BAPTIZED, even though it is HIGHLY PROBABLE that you BOTH will be tortured and killed two seconds later?

 

Yes or No?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Jay-

Whoa!  Talk about an egotistical statement!

 

Watch out world!  Brother Jay is going to accomplish what Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon NEVER could! 

 

Dude, since you believe you are "all that and a bag of chips", then you definitely need to quit wasting your talents HERE, and hit the pavement with YOUR special message that the rest of us peons never heard!  

 

Woo boy!  Talk about a "messiah complex"!

 

P.S. - You might want to consider dropping the "humble" part of your arrogant statement.  It's quite unbelievable.  Sheez!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He is only being christ like. Yes? Jesus was mostly humble and had a message from god that no one heard of before. The jews thought they knew everything about there god but the jews were all wrong according to jesus. Jesus could be arrogant to.

 

Every religionists supposedly has the correct understanding in higher power.

 

And yea he is dillusional just like christ was.

[Jay]

Okay.  That was simple.  It's really easy to throw away soemone ELSE'S life, isn't it?

Well, as you pointed out in the original question, it was their decision to do it. Not mine. I likely would have advised against going back. But again, this is a hypothetical.

 

Same people, different location.  YOU are now neck deep in Saudi Arabia.  Muslim territory.  Surrounded by this same person's family in a public place.  No church of America to hide in.

 

Q: With the family as witnesses, are YOU willing to preach the gospel to this person, WHO WANTS TO HEAR IT AND BE BAPTIZED, even though it is HIGHLY PROBABLE that you BOTH will be tortured and killed two seconds later?

At this point in my life, I believe I am ready to die for my faith, so I would answer yes. I was already attacked with a knife in Chicago because of what I was preaching on the street, and I thought I was going to die. So I believe that I would be willing to maintain my faith and preach it even in the face of death.

 

Gee...can anyone guess what TK's next question will be?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Well, as you pointed out in the original question, it was their decision to do it.  Not mine.  I likely would have advised against going back.  But again, this is a hypothetical.

 

Same people, different location.  YOU are now neck deep in Saudi Arabia.  Muslim territory.  Surrounded by this same person's family in a public place.  No church of America to hide in.

 

Q: With the family as witnesses, are YOU willing to preach the gospel to this person, WHO WANTS TO HEAR IT AND BE BAPTIZED, even though it is HIGHLY PROBABLE that you BOTH will be tortured and killed two seconds later?

At this point in my life, I believe I am ready to die for my faith, so I would answer yes. I was already attacked with a knife in Chicago because of what I was preaching on the street, and I thought I was going to die. So I believe that I would be willing to maintain my faith and preach it even in the face of death.

 

Gee...can anyone guess what TK's next question will be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am so glad 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% xers don't really believe in jesus. Scary....

 

With faith like that you should be able to heal the sick with the super powers that jesus gives to believers.

[Cerise]

I've seen a few christian willing to kill for their faith, I've seen a bunch of christians claiming to be willing to die for their faith, I've even seen some willing to let others die (even their own children) for their faith.

 

But I've yet to meet a single christian who has ever done as Jesus did, aka brining someone back from the dead, for their faith.

 

If christianity is a religion of life and not a religion of death (as it seems to be) I wonder why that is so?

[Checkmate]

Well, as you pointed out in the original question, it was their decision to do it.  Not mine.  I likely would have advised against going back.  But again, this is a hypothetical.

 

Same people, different location.  YOU are now neck deep in Saudi Arabia.  Muslim territory.  Surrounded by this same person's family in a public place.  No church of America to hide in.

 

Q: With the family as witnesses, are YOU willing to preach the gospel to this person, WHO WANTS TO HEAR IT AND BE BAPTIZED, even though it is HIGHLY PROBABLE that you BOTH will be tortured and killed two seconds later?

At this point in my life, I believe I am ready to die for my faith, so I would answer yes. I was already attacked with a knife in Chicago because of what I was preaching on the street, and I thought I was going to die. So I believe that I would be willing to maintain my faith and preach it even in the face of death.

 

Gee...can anyone guess what TK's next question will be?

 

I noticed your caveat of, "At this point in my life, I believe I am ready to die for my faith". Does this imply that dying for Jesus is only acceptable when you're an old used up rag doll? I suppose when you're young and have "so much" life left to live, then sacrifice is out of the question?

 

But, no, never mind. I don't even want you to answer that, as I am done with my inquest of you. I am satisfied, Jay. You're no hypocrite.

 

You're a fanatic. A religious zealot.

 

You're the Christian equivalent of the Fundie Muslim. The Muslim is ready to KILL for his faith, and YOU are "ready" to die for yours. (Now that the time is right, at least.)

 

You're two sides of the same coin. You believe that it's noble for a human to sacrifice his or OTHERS' lives for the glory of his/her chosen deity.

 

I don't know who's nuttier: People who KILL for god, or those who DIE for god!

 

But I do know THIS--I don't want to have shit to do with either one of you! Do me a favor and keep your strange beliefs to yourself and away from me and my loved ones. Kay?

 

 

 

Sheesh! (I think I prefer the hypocrites! )