Kathlene Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Hey all, Im just curious to know why this site allows christians in here to post, and what it is that you are hoping to gain from them? Do you like christians in here? If so, why? If not, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 The lion's den is designed to allow Christians to express themselves, raise issues and dialog with ex-christians. Personally, I don't mind Christians posting in most places except for maybe the testimonies section and Ex-Christian life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why? It's good question. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 4, 2010 Author Share Posted March 4, 2010 The lion's den is designed to allow Christians to express themselves, raise issues and dialog with ex-christians. Personally, I don't mind Christians posting in most places except for maybe the testimonies section and Ex-Christian life. Why would you allow christians to express themselves though? Isnt that what the site is for, to get away from christians? Why do you even want to have dialog with christians? Doesnt it just aggravate and pour salt into the wounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 We've got a lot of folks here who enjoy a vigorous debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I agree with Hans! This is an excellent question Kathlene! I think there are many answers. 1. Some of us want to beat on you. 2. Some of us want to try and deconvert you. 3. Some of us appreciate having you here as contrast. 4. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Another reason: Letting xians post here allows for xians in the middle of deconverting to find a community of people who have been through what they are going through. They might join us or not, but it can provide for support while they're sorting things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I don't mind a good debate, but I haven't seen any Xians come here who have good debating skills, much less the knowledge to compete in a good debate. No insult intended. There was one on the blog who almost came close though. I wonder what happened to him. Oh yes. I may have eaten him for dinner. Just kidding. I didn't eat him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Net Eng Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Hey all, Im just curious to know why this site allows christians in here to post, and what it is that you are hoping to gain from them? Do you like christians in here? If so, why? If not, why? 1. It would be intellectually dishonest not to allow other views. 2. Personally I see no gain from the debate directly. Most christians will not be swayed by reason (faith trumps all). However, it may lead to more questioning by the lurkers who are re-examining their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Another point is: what is a Christian? If we had some kind of approval system where only non-Christians were allowed, what about those who are UU Christians? Or perhaps secular/nominal Christians? There are some gray zones. So the filtering won't really work. Besides, we're just as hard on Theists and Muslims as we are on Christians, but few find their way here. I know we're hard on you Kathlene, and I'm sorry that it has to be that way, but (I'm with Legion here) where else can we freely beat on Christians and get away with it? One thing I've learned over the years debating with Christians is that it's almost to the point of useless. We can't de-convert you anymore than you can convert us. Some heated discussions have taught me some other valuable lessons about Christians. Perhaps it would be more useful to discuss things with Christians on Christian forums? Unfortunately that has been tested by some members, and usually they're banned, not because of their behavior or language, but just because they ask some hard questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 4, 2010 Author Share Posted March 4, 2010 Another point is: what is a Christian? If we had some kind of approval system where only non-Christians were allowed, what about those who are UU Christians? Or perhaps secular/nominal Christians? There are some gray zones. So the filtering won't really work. Besides, we're just as hard on Theists and Muslims as we are on Christians, but few find their way here. I know we're hard on you Kathlene, and I'm sorry that it has to be that way, but (I'm with Legion here) where else can we freely beat on Christians and get away with it? I dont think you are hard on me at all Ourobouros. In fact I realise I frustrate many a poster in here, which is why I rarely post anymore. I do not see the point in it actually. I dont want to cause more harm to anyone in here, and I realise my wild views are just going to get smashed in here, so meh. I thought for a while I was offering up a different worldview to the one you guys have, but it too gets pulled down and I am told I am wrong, when these are my personal experiences. It was wrong for you guys when you were in it, but how can you claim it is wrong for me? ...but nevertheless, I do enjoy and respect many of you in here and enjoy your company regardless of any of our worldviews. Isnt that what humanity is all about? connecting to one another and sharing our successes and failures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Isnt that what humanity is all about? connecting to one another and sharing our successes and failures? Sure. Since this website is more of a sub-culture (or perhaps even counter-culture) place, it will serve a group in which you don't belong in, but in any other setting I wouldn't question your belief. You have the right to believe whatever you want, but in here, you will meet resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Another point is: what is a Christian? If we had some kind of approval system where only non-Christians were allowed, what about those who are UU Christians? Or perhaps secular/nominal Christians? There are some gray zones. So the filtering won't really work. Besides, we're just as hard on Theists and Muslims as we are on Christians, but few find their way here. I know we're hard on you Kathlene, and I'm sorry that it has to be that way, but (I'm with Legion here) where else can we freely beat on Christians and get away with it? I dont think you are hard on me at all Ourobouros. In fact I realise I frustrate many a poster in here, which is why I rarely post anymore. I do not see the point in it actually. I dont want to cause more harm to anyone in here, and I realise my wild views are just going to get smashed in here, so meh. I thought for a while I was offering up a different worldview to the one you guys have, but it too gets pulled down and I am told I am wrong, when these are my personal experiences. It was wrong for you guys when you were in it, but how can you claim it is wrong for me? ...but nevertheless, I do enjoy and respect many of you in here and enjoy your company regardless of any of our worldviews. Isnt that what humanity is all about? connecting to one another and sharing our successes and failures? Whatever gets you through the night. However, as Ouroboros said, you will meet resistance here. I grew up with Fundies, went to the Episcopal Church, even did the non-realism and Xian humanism/humanistic Xianity thing, before I became a Humanist. So, I am well aware of the many different Xian views. The problem is, religion can be an addiction, regardless of the Xian view. Also, if you study religion, actually study it, it eventually becomes difficult to believe it, if not impossible, esp if you study human behaviour and mythology along with it. Eventually, one ends up with no god concept, which is hard to explain if you never had all those memes that were taught to you from birth, busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why would you allow christians to express themselves though? Isnt that what the site is for, to get away from christians? No, it's not. It's to help people deconvert and to deal with issues that arise from both Christianity and deconversion. The whole web is available to get away from Christians. Dealing with Christians is something we'll all be facing for the rest of our lives, with or without the internet. This is an excellent venue for learning how to do it. Why do you even want to have dialog with christians? Doesnt it just aggravate and pour salt into the wounds? Sometimes it does. That's why there are a couple of fora where Christians can't post, and one where they can't read. But wanting to have dialogue with Christians is only a small part of it. A large part of it is the strong free speech ethic here. There are literally thousands of Christian fora where censorship is the rule. The slightest disagreement or divergence from party line will get posts instantly deleted and posters banned outright. We have enough self-respect and respect for principles to show a higher ethic than that. I've been here long enough to know that a vast majority of our members would see that kind of behavior to be spineless and cowardly, and a tacit admission that we really don't have anything to offer which will stand on it's own merit (Just as it is on Christian sites.), and that we'd be ashamed of ourselves if we comported ourselves in such a way. Another reason is to show Christian behavior in all it's disgusting ugliness, part of which is social behavior, and part of which is the perpetual inability of those who claim to be, "led by God," to deal with very important questions which should have been dealt with centuries ago, and which would have been had such people actually been led in any appreciable way by the Almighty. Again, unlike sites which ban and delete divergent views, we go the other way and make them a matter of public record, along with a steady stream of real-life examples of just how badly the, "indwelling of the Holy Spirit," has failed and continues to fail the Christians. At the same time, many new deconverts who know deep inside that there's something terribly wrong with this or that aspect of Christianity, but haven't been able to put their finger on it, can see cogent answers to the party line responses which had been fed to them all those years by the deceitful and unscrupulous clergy in the name of, "equipping," them to deal with the very real moral problems inescapably presented by core doctrines and tenets. As far as personal tastes go, it's left up to the individual members here to interact or not as they see fit. Some do, some don't, some change from day to day depending on their mood at the moment. Again, it's a matter of not wanting to rob people of their dignity and ability to make their own choices, as well as not pridefully thinking that we are wise enough to control others in every little respect. Christianity has done that to us enough already. We'd rather eat ground glass than do to others what Christianity has done and continues to do to people. Isn't twenty centuries of that kind of amoral crap enough? We want to set the moral bar for ourselves higher than those thousands of Christian sites evidently do. And frankly, we manage to get over that bar quite well (usually) without trying too damn hard, which says something very clear and damning about the bulk of Christian discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I have learned a lot from my Christian friends since my deconversion. They raise issues that makes me think about a response. It's mental excersise. Of course, I hope that I am making them think, too. As for this site and this particular forum...I think it's much the same, although I don't use it for that all too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 4, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted March 4, 2010 My question is why do some Christians continue to hang around here for months or even years, ask questions and evangelize us (sometimes only subtly, sometimes not). I don't haunt the Christian sites since I'm not a Christian. It just seems odd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Actually, I've never been to a Xian forum or blog, even when I was a Xian. I never was interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 4, 2010 Author Share Posted March 4, 2010 My question is why do some Christians continue to hang around here for months or even years, ask questions and evangelize us (sometimes only subtly, sometimes not). I don't haunt the Christian sites since I'm not a Christian. It just seems odd to me. Well in my case Florduh, I was here before you know as a decovert. I have stuck around not to evangelise but because I happen to like this site and the people in it. I thought I actually had friends in here. As for the other christians, perhaps they too feel the same way, or find the different points of view enlightening? I have posted in here as a christian capacity and that was never to evangelise. It was to offer up my viewpoints, but whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I've never been on a Christian forum either. I don't feel the need to de-convert anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 It was wrong for you guys when you were in it, but how can you claim it is wrong for me? I don't know what 'wrong' means in this context - I got to do a lot of things as a Christian, like play collegiate baseball and travel the world with a musical group, that I wouldn't have had the opportunity, or maybe the nerve, to do out in the world at large. And I learned how to make friends and develop social skills. I don't know that it was wrong for me, but I did grow enough and learn enough that I couldn't stay with it, and I just don't get how any intelligent, rational person can believe it all literally. Nothing personal against anyone, I have Christian friends and family and love them all, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I don't engage as much as I used to, but the main reason for me is to remember the breathtaking dishonesty of Christians' posts. The tortured logic and mental contortions that ensue from them is extraordinary. I know I could never lie to myself (nor to others) again like that. This is actually a part of the "therapy" that ExC provides for me (although most if it is the wonderful people who are here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 4, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted March 4, 2010 It was wrong for you guys when you were in it, but how can you claim it is wrong for me? It always was and still is wrong. It's not like saying keeping a pet cat is right for one person and wrong for another. Though one may make a somewhat coherent argument for a deistic god, the god of the Christian Bible is an impossibility. I think I always knew that intellectually, but I got swept away by the promises, the personalities, the emotion, and of course the threat of Hell. I applaud you for not actively evangelizing here. That's what obedient Christians do, and you have resisted. As far as offering up a "Christian point of view", well, we all know what that is from experience. Being informed of the Christian view of a given topic is like passive evangelism to me. My point is that Christians bring nothing to the table as far as religious topics go (we are, after all, ex-Christian ourselves), but off topic discussions with religious people are another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 ... I was here before you know as a decovert. You were never a True Heathen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I've always like that song and thought it was an apt description of people, including Xians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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