Why Do You Allow Christians On The Site To Post?

[Antlerman]

Neon, I believe the Bible is God's word and breathed by him. I do however recognise that the tool it went through was man, therefore, I do accept there are mistakes in the Bible. I believe there is a verse that mentions that no prophets words originated in man's will but Gods. However, seeing as we are humans, with weaknesses and faults I believe there will be errors.

Then of course it cannot be taken as an Absolute. It will be up to the individual to find those truths in there which speak to them. Another way to see this is that the Bible contains the Word of God. Men who were moved by their faith in God, or their experience of God, spoke expressively through that spirit.

 

This of course is seen in all religious expressions, and I'll add even in expressions that do not include religious icons, such as a truly inspired poem, a work of art, the act of genuine love to another. All are expressions of "God", if you will. All are "the Word of God".

 

It could be considered that limiting that to 66 approved books bound in a leather binder and called Holy, can in fact be an act of idolatry. Is the Word of God, versus Contains the Word of God (inspired expressions of man responding to an existential experience of the Divine), is a world of difference. (Of course you have to also see the Bible is very secular as well. Since when does not eating shell fish have to do with being moved and inspired by God? It does however have everything to do with social rules of men who used God like we would our American Flag).

 

I believe the spiritual message of the Bible is what I am to look at. The overall message is the condition of man's heart. I believe that is the underlying message throughout the bible. Look at your heart, repent, find forgiveness. Simple really.

I'd say that may be the overall message you take from it. Likely because that's what resonates with you. The key to understanding is that the Bible is not a single message, but rather a collection of religious texts that were assembled by men to represent what they felt best served what they felt support their efforts at having an organized religion.

 

Have you ever read any of the "unapproved" Gnostic texts? To me, they are very 'inspired', expressive of a vision of the Divine (not understood literally of course). You in fact get a really good feel for them in reading the 'approved' book of the Gospel of John. John straddles that fence between the proto-orthodox and Gnostic communities well enough to have been allowed to be included in the later church councils list of approved texts. But to me, if you hear the "Word of God" in the Bible, you will also hear it in those texts, you will also hear it in other religious texts, you will also hear it in the light of every day, you will also hear it in the hearts of others everywhere, and the more you hear it, the more you see it.

 

Since when does prohibition of women speaking in church have to do with God? But like the OT, like using the Flag to represent social values, God serves that social need. But that is not spiritual, by any stretch of the imagination. Wouldn't you agree? (BTW, it's been demonstrated that that text was added years after Paul lived and inserted into the middle of his texts to support some later church rules laid down by the early Bishops in the 2nd Century. Which makes my point, doesn't it?)

 

It is always a good thing in life to have balance, not extreme.

Agreed. I think it is unbalanced to reject something because it is taken out of context as supremely literal, as much as it is to reject thoughts outside it because it is taken to be literal words dictated by God. Big difference between inspired and dictated. At best they are expressions of spirit through the heart of man, in man's words, thoughts, symbols, etc, even if the heart of it is seen as Divine. Now this is about man seeking God, not God telling man what to do, like some Lawgiver on the mountain with stone tablets. If the message of the Bible was telling man what to do from the outside, then there seems no point for the points in the NT, does it?

 

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

Really? Seriously? My impression is that that is a perception created by religious propaganda to support itself through an us/them dichotomy. I wholeheartedly disagree with this false caricaturization of humans who are not Christian, just as much as I think it's political rhetoric to oversimplify what religion is to nothing more than delusional thinking based on ignorant superstition.

 

In this language, I see less than I do in the majority of the people in the world, who to me, through simply choosing good in their lives are more in tune with that Spirit of Love than those who deny and reject "God" in others simply because they don't use that social group's particular set of religious symbols. What has happened is those religious symbols for those Christians have become their source of truth, their source of identity. They are idolaters, and their fruits are judgment and division.

 

You shall know them by the fruits.

 

Are there higher levels of Love, of Spirit to be experienced and expressed in us? Sure. Of course. But it is the essence of that which is Truth, not the symbols used to help lift you to there. Be careful that your sense of wholeness is not a facade created by some social unity at the expense of the spirit of love in your heart. Your heart is what you need to listen to, that "still small voice" beyond the din of your surrounding, your social clatter.

 

 

Is this really a question of spiritual light verses dark? just asking and putting it out there...

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John1v1-3.

And that applies to the religious who see their symbolic world as Truth Itself.

[NonXNonExX]

Meanwhile, back to the original question...I would like to answer the question from a perspective i have rarely seen on this site, that of a non Xtian who has always been a non-believer. I was extensively exposed to Xtianity as a child, but it somehow never took. Maybe because no one tried to force me to believe or because i lived in an area where religion wasn't taken so seriously.

 

One obvious reason for allowing Xtians on this site is because it is also open to people who never accepted Jesus as anymore than a poorly drawn incomprehensible fairy tale full of gross and unconnected pericopes, as well as Muslims, Buddhists, etc. In other words, it is open to all points of view.

 

Personally, i enjoy seeing the clash of ideas. It also helps me understand how believers think (or don't think as the case may be). For a long time i was under the mistaken impression that people only went to church for the social life or because of social pressure. It came as a shock to learn that so many people truly believe. I especially enjoy seeing posters like End3 chasing his tail and thinking he's actually engaged in some kind of dialog as well as certain other posters who chant "la, la, la, la, i don't want to listen to reason because my fantasy makes me feel good."

[Kuroikaze]

You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you.

 

Wrong, reason is not a 'thing' to be put somewhere. It is a tool for discerning truth. It is not a matter of ignoring other things in favor of reason, but of using the best tool for the job.

 

Emotions are not bad, they are great, I love emotions, and truthfully I am somewhat offended by your constant assertions that our valuation of logic means we must be some cold heartless, unfeeling monsters.

 

Emotions are great, in their proper context, but are not useful for learning about objective reality. Would you use a hammer to chop wood? Or a saw to drive a nail?

 

I hope that makes you happy, I truly do.

 

Reason is NOT about happy or unhappy, though yes I am generally happy, and I would attribute this, at least partially, to holding beliefs about reality which are as correct as I can make them.

 

For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

I don't really know what to say to this, it is like you are suggesting that it is better to believe in a happy fantasy than a harsh reality.

 

I may not believe in life after death, but this does not mean I am some morose grouse who does not enjoy the short life that I have.

 

I cannot describe to you the peace and stability and cleaness I feel being close to Jesus. When I came back to God, and asked for forgiveness, the only thing that cleaned the inside of my soul was Him. Nothing else in this world gave that to me, and nothing else can.

 

I cannot describe to you the amount of pain suffering and general depression that Jesus gave to me. Christianity nearly destroyed my life, and it took me more than half a decade to rebuild it.

 

I am speaking emotionally of course, because in reality it was not that bad, many people suffer much more than I. However, you speak of emotional fulfillment, fine lets talk emotional fulfillment since reason clearly does not wash with you anymore.

 

You say Christianity is emotionally fulfilling for you, fine. I happen to think this is a silly and vapid way of thinking ( you should know this already, and I won't soft coat it for you) but it is your life to live however you choose.

 

However, my life is MY LIFE to live how I see fit. Why are you so intent on dragging me back to a way of life that made me essentially manic depressive and LITERALLY caused me to consider suicide on several occasions? (something which I have never considered once since I left it behind)

Is your faith so weak that you feel you must induct other members into your religion in order to feel justified?

Despite claims to the contrary, your manner of speak here has clearly been that of someone evangelizing for your beliefs. (others have avoided saying so, but to be honest, I am tired of tiptoeing around you, and your emotional reactions) You make bald assertions about the way we think and feel and suggest that life without your god is dry and unsatisfying. Your assertions are wrong, and you SHOULD know better.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not angry, I do not even dislike you, though I will openly say, that your approach towards life completely baffles me. There was a time when I would have chewed you up and spit you out, back when the wounds were much more fresh and my life was still in shambles, but I am over all that for the most part.

 

I just grow VERY VERY tired of having you hurl accusations at us about the way we treat reason, or our lack of empathy or emotional maturity. Particularly, when from what I see, it is you who are lacking both.

[Ouroboros]

You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you.

Actually I put reasonable and coherent arguments based on mutually agreed warrants first. Not everything can be understood by logic, but there are reasonable levels of unity in the things we can trust. I'm more of a Toulmin arguer than the Socratic/Aristotle/Cicero arguer.

 

And I put spelling high up on the pedestal too. I can live without the "pedastool" (child-seat, child-poop?).

[Kathlene]

You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you.

Actually I put reasonable and coherent arguments based on mutually agreed warrants first. Not everything can be understood by logic, but there are reasonable levels of unity in the things we can trust. I'm more of a Toulmin arguer than the Socratic/Aristotle/Cicero arguer.

 

And I put spelling high up on the pedestal too. I can live without the "pedastool" (child-seat, child-poop?).

My apologies Ouroboros..for the life of me when I typed that I knew it was wrong, but I sometimes get brain fogs where I completely forget things. Dunno if it's age, health or what. Its a shame though, that I generally write fairly coherent, and you had to pull me up for one spelling mistake, lol.

[Kathlene]

You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you.

 

Wrong, reason is not a 'thing' to be put somewhere. It is a tool for discerning truth. It is not a matter of ignoring other things in favor of reason, but of using the best tool for the job.

 

Emotions are not bad, they are great, I love emotions, and truthfully I am somewhat offended by your constant assertions that our valuation of logic means we must be some cold heartless, unfeeling monsters.

 

Emotions are great, in their proper context, but are not useful for learning about objective reality. Would you use a hammer to chop wood? Or a saw to drive a nail?

 

I hope that makes you happy, I truly do.

 

Reason is NOT about happy or unhappy, though yes I am generally happy, and I would attribute this, at least partially, to holding beliefs about reality which are as correct as I can make them.

 

For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

I don't really know what to say to this, it is like you are suggesting that it is better to believe in a happy fantasy than a harsh reality.

 

I may not believe in life after death, but this does not mean I am some morose grouse who does not enjoy the short life that I have.

 

I cannot describe to you the peace and stability and cleaness I feel being close to Jesus. When I came back to God, and asked for forgiveness, the only thing that cleaned the inside of my soul was Him. Nothing else in this world gave that to me, and nothing else can.

 

I cannot describe to you the amount of pain suffering and general depression that Jesus gave to me. Christianity nearly destroyed my life, and it took me more than half a decade to rebuild it.

 

I am speaking emotionally of course, because in reality it was not that bad, many people suffer much more than I. However, you speak of emotional fulfillment, fine lets talk emotional fulfillment since reason clearly does not wash with you anymore.

 

You say Christianity is emotionally fulfilling for you, fine. I happen to think this is a silly and vapid way of thinking ( you should know this already, and I won't soft coat it for you) but it is your life to live however you choose.

 

However, my life is MY LIFE to live how I see fit. Why are you so intent on dragging me back to a way of life that made me essentially manic depressive and LITERALLY caused me to consider suicide on several occasions? (something which I have never considered once since I left it behind)

Is your faith so weak that you feel you must induct other members into your religion in order to feel justified?

Despite claims to the contrary, your manner of speak here has clearly been that of someone evangelizing for your beliefs. (others have avoided saying so, but to be honest, I am tired of tiptoeing around you, and your emotional reactions) You make bald assertions about the way we think and feel and suggest that life without your god is dry and unsatisfying. Your assertions are wrong, and you SHOULD know better.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not angry, I do not even dislike you, though I will openly say, that your approach towards life completely baffles me. There was a time when I would have chewed you up and spit you out, back when the wounds were much more fresh and my life was still in shambles, but I am over all that for the most part.

 

I just grow VERY VERY tired of having you hurl accusations at us about the way we treat reason, or our lack of empathy or emotional maturity. Particularly, when from what I see, it is you who are lacking both.

 

 

Thankyou for your honesty here Kuriokaze. Actually if you read back quite a few posts you could probably tell that post of mine was directed in anger at other posters who shredded my posts earlier. I dont see why you guys can let it rip to me, and are completely offended when I post my opinions and views in return. I do however value this post of yours. It is well thought out and respectful. I've said it a million times in here now. I just want to offer a different point of view to the one that is constantly argued in here about the character of God and the Bible, and say hey not everyone thinks that way. Like someone else has already posted, its good to get a two way view of the street. Frankly, I dont care whether any of you believes in God or not. Its not my intention to persuade anyone here. My only motivation for being on this site is, a) there are some really cool people in here! I enjoy reading the posts, and sometimes contributing. C) um...I think Im addicted!!

[Kathlene]

Oh, and raised Catholic Kathlene? Do you feel they are mistaken in their beliefs? I mean they were really the dominant church for a long long. Guess they had it wrong for all those centuries but little Kathlene knows better than all those church leaders, "pastors" and the like?

 

Actually Vix, you are pretty quick to judge there. I have no problem with the catholic church at all. They believe in Jesus. I dont see them as mistaken in their beliefs at all. I just choose not to continue at a catholic church because it bores me to put it frankly. I actually dont go to church yet..., but when I ever do it will be hopefully to a charismatic or spirit filled church. I know plenty of catholic churches that do this too, so who knows? The charismatic wave actually started out from the Catholic church if I remember correctly? When I visit my brother I go to their catholic church out of respect to him. It brings back good and bad memories from my childhood. I don't view catholics as any different in their faith.

[agnosticator]

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

 

 

Hi Kathlene,

I'm curious as to what the "total opposite of the world's value system" is, and what you consider the world's value system to be? I ask because the main reason I am no longer a Christian is the N.T.'s "value system". That is, the morality and values of the N.T. are not the same as most Christians and unbelievers' morality and values. Most Christians and unbelievers value fairness, equality, justice, freedom, family, respect for others, empathy, for example. The N.T. does not value these concepts.

[Ouroboros]

My apologies Ouroboros..for the life of me when I typed that I knew it was wrong, but I sometimes get brain fogs where I completely forget things. Dunno if it's age, health or what. Its a shame though, that I generally write fairly coherent, and you had to pull me up for one spelling mistake, lol.

That's okay. Actually, I really don't care much if people spell bad or make grammar mistakes. I ain't no friggin' grammar nazi.

[Ouroboros]

Thankyou for your honesty here Kuriokaze. Actually if you read back quite a few posts you could probably tell that post of mine was directed in anger at other posters who shredded my posts earlier. I dont see why you guys can let it rip to me, and are completely offended when I post my opinions and views in return.

Hmm... perhaps it's because this website has the purpose of service those who left Christianity? Just a suggestion to explain what's going on.

 

I do however value this post of yours. It is well thought out and respectful. I've said it a million times in here now. I just want to offer a different point of view to the one that is constantly argued in here about the character of God and the Bible, and say hey not everyone thinks that way.

And to me, that's okay. But don't expect that people will lay down and play nice just because you offered your side.

 

You don't go into a biker bar and tell them you hate motorcycles... It doesn't matter what arguments you have, the bikers still won't like it and will most likely passionately argue back.

 

Like someone else has already posted, its good to get a two way view of the street. Frankly, I dont care whether any of you believes in God or not. Its not my intention to persuade anyone here. My only motivation for being on this site is, a) there are some really cool people in here! I enjoy reading the posts, and sometimes contributing. C) um...I think Im addicted!!

Uh-uh. That addiction is hard to break...

 

Honestly, I don't have much beef with you, End, or Abiyoyo.

 

Rayskidude, LNC, and OrdinaryClay on the other hand...

[Antlerman]

I actually dont go to church yet..., but when I ever do it will be hopefully to a charismatic or spirit filled church.

That will be interesting. I'd like to hear if your faith when exposed to a church environment, will find itself at home there. At first it's all smiles and love, then the reality of carnality sets in once all the gossip and self-righteousness starts up.

 

The charismatic wave actually started out from the Catholic church if I remember correctly?

The original stuff began in 1901 with the birth of the Pentecostals within the Holiness movements. It later became a denomination in 1914 (the Assemblies of God) over doctrinal quibbling whether the one God was three separate persons or three manifestations of the same God. In the 60's the whole demonstrative expression of the religion found its way into mainline denominations, which I believe it was Episcopalian first.

 

Pentecostalism/Charismatics is fascinating stuff which I know a bit about should you ever wish to hear. I used to be a Pentecostal, believe it or not. It has its place, very much the same as primal tribal religions, working oneself into states of ecstasy through repetitions of sounds, music, drumming, dancing, whirling, etc. You see it in tribes like the Zulu's, voodoo, etc. Plato spoke about it in 400 B.C., complete with tongues and all. It has its place, as I said and many who practice Wicca have various rituals they do to come to these states also. For me, it's not what I was looking for.

[Mriana]

And I put spelling high up on the pedestal too. I can live without the "pedastool" (child-seat, child-poop?).

 

I think I spelled it that way and could not find the right spelling on spell check. Now if only I could remember how to spell it right.

[Ouroboros]

And I put spelling high up on the pedestal too. I can live without the "pedastool" (child-seat, child-poop?).

 

I think I spelled it that way and could not find the right spelling on spell check. Now if only I could remember how to spell it right.

"Pedestal" silly. It was in the first sentence.

[Vixentrox]

Oh, and raised Catholic Kathlene? Do you feel they are mistaken in their beliefs? I mean they were really the dominant church for a long long. Guess they had it wrong for all those centuries but little Kathlene knows better than all those church leaders, "pastors" and the like?

 

Actually Vix, you are pretty quick to judge there. I have no problem with the catholic church at all. They believe in Jesus. I dont see them as mistaken in their beliefs at all. I just choose not to continue at a catholic church because it bores me to put it frankly. I actually dont go to church yet..., but when I ever do it will be hopefully to a charismatic or spirit filled church. I know plenty of catholic churches that do this too, so who knows? The charismatic wave actually started out from the Catholic church if I remember correctly? When I visit my brother I go to their catholic church out of respect to him. It brings back good and bad memories from my childhood. I don't view catholics as any different in their faith.

No, the charismatic movement did start from the Catholic church unless you mean that pretty much all sects of modern Christianity were founded in the Catholic Church. Charismatics would be heretical. Had they been around a few hundred years earlier they likely would have been persecuted, tortured or what not by your loving Catholic church. So, just a belief in Jesus is good enough? Like the Muslims? They believe in Jesus. What other Christian sects that don't believe in Jesus as god? They are really no different than Muslims then are they?

[Kuroikaze]

 

Thankyou for your honesty here Kuriokaze. Actually if you read back quite a few posts you could probably tell that post of mine was directed in anger at other posters who shredded my posts earlier.

 

Fair enough, though in that case it might be a good idea to phrase things more carefully.

 

You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool

 

statements like these tend to make it look like you are lumping all atheists/non-Christians or whatever, into the same category. If you have a problem with a specific person don't be afraid to name them, it is better than just hurling general accusations.

 

I dont see why you guys can let it rip to me, and are completely offended when I post my opinions and views in return. I do however value this post of yours. It is well thought out and respectful.

 

Thanks, I know I often walk the fine line between being "firm" and being a "jerk" I try not to cross it, but sometimes.....

 

I've said it a million times in here now. I just want to offer a different point of view to the one that is constantly argued in here about the character of God and the Bible, and say hey not everyone thinks that way.

 

Ok, but you might ask the question "are you really offering a point of view we are unaware of?" The point of view you offer is one that I, a least, am quite familiar with. I just think the view is wrong.

 

 

like someone else has already posted, its good to get a two way view of the street. Frankly, I dont care whether any of you believes in God or not. Its not my intention to persuade anyone here.

 

You say this, and I think you really believe it, but the things you say often SOUND very evangelistic. I realize this is done without malicious intent, but you must realize that this is going to get lots of peoples hackles up.

 

As far as seeing things from the other end of the street, as it were. I do not have very fond memories of that place, and as for the place you describe, while it apparently seems wonderful to you, to me it seems like the same dank dungeon I left....maybe with some new curtains. The more you describe it the more I recoil in horror at the notion that any one would subject themselves to that kind of thinking and lifestyle.

 

Not trying to be offensive, just giving an honest opinion. Because you seem to think you are trying to correct our misunderstandings about Christianity by giving us a different version than the one we remember. It does not seem to me that you have done either.

 

My only motivation for being on this site is, a) there are some really cool people in here! I enjoy reading the posts, and sometimes contributing. C) um...I think Im addicted!!

 

Well, I don't know about cool. I am a complete nerd.

[Mriana]

And I put spelling high up on the pedestal too. I can live without the "pedastool" (child-seat, child-poop?).

 

I think I spelled it that way and could not find the right spelling on spell check. Now if only I could remember how to spell it right.

"Pedestal" silly. It was in the first sentence.

 

Yes, I should have noticed and I'm kicking myself for not making note of it when I posted it, wherever I posted it.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, I should have noticed and I'm kicking myself for not making note of it when I posted it, wherever I posted it.

It's a hard word.

 

I tend to write it as "pedistal," which isn't much better. How often do we even use that word? I think I've used it four times the last couple of years... all of them here, in these posts.

[chefranden]

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

 

Interesting, have you any explanation of why there are so many christians in prison and so few atheists? -- or are these jailed Christians just an example of Christians getting bashed?

 

I have found that Christians are just plain folks. There is nothing special about them. Even the Pope's brother (a priest) is being investigated for child abuse in Germany.

 

There is supposed to be something special about a Christian right? There is supposed to be the Holy Spirit and having Jesus as a buddy and all that, right? Yet even you say here that a Christian has to "try to live according to the bible..." What is this "trying" shit? To quote a famous little green man, "There is no try, there is only do." Of course that little twerp had the Force, you only have the Holy Spirit**.

 

I spent 40 plus years* with this "trying" stuff without getting anywhere special and without getting an actual personal relationship with a guy 2000 years dead. When ever I had coffee with Jesus his cup was always full when I left the shop -- by myself.

 

*I'm a slow learner.

 

Edit: By the way do you know where the "personal relationship" bits of the bible are? I don't remember and I can't find them. Surely you are up on them.

 

** The Force will go get your light saber for you showing it's existence. The Holy Spirit will make you go get it yourself, almost as if it isn't even in the room.

[bdp]

 

 

I have found that Christians are just plain folks. There is nothing special about them.

 

This was maybe the biggest initial impetus to my deconversion - Christians taken as a group are no different than any other group of humanity, and the bible certainly promises them to be otherwise. I also think this notion of 'the world' is a false one, the non-Christian world is not a monolith.

[dagnarus]

This was maybe the biggest initial impetus to my deconversion - Christians taken as a group are no different than any other group of humanity, and the bible certainly promises them to be otherwise. I also think this notion of 'the world' is a false one, the non-Christian world is not a monolith.

 

A major part of my deconversion was realizing that in every practical sense the church was at best another aspect of the world. It's behaviour and values were in no way miraculously different from the rest of the world's.

[Franko47]

This was maybe the biggest initial impetus to my deconversion - Christians taken as a group are no different than any other group of humanity, and the bible certainly promises them to be otherwise. I also think this notion of 'the world' is a false one, the non-Christian world is not a monolith.

 

A major part of my deconversion was realizing that in every practical sense the church was at best another aspect of the world. It's behaviour and values were in no way miraculously different from the rest of the world's.

 

 

Check. Even while a Christian, going to a church, I had to use the same level of caution (about humans) that I would use in traffic, the workplace, or a casino. The same pitfalls were there, the same social games, the posturing, the politics, the discrete egotism.... no different than any other "worldly" venue. Nor was anyone there more gracious than my self (on a good day), more generous, more enlightened, more comforting, or capable of "miracles" or any other kind of extraordinary "powers".

 

In short, the Christians I knew were no better, happier, or more extraordinary than regular agnostic/atheists that I knew. Nor did they have any impressive solutions for the regular problems of life. Nothing there whatsoever but a lot of hoping and dreaming and "you must have faith" that it will "somehow get better", etc.

 

So, where is this "magical edge" that Christians and their communities are supposed to enjoy ? I was getting more spiritual reinforcement out of night school. At least music and the arts were tangible; and you got out of it what you put in...the other was just sitting around dreaming and pretending that some imaginary being was going to make our lives better ? And that's just breaks between the sessions of hand-wringing about how "corrupt" the "outside world" was.

 

I'm afraid that it was a slow realization in some ways that many of these people were still living with a lot of childish fears. Sorry, that's a harsh thing to say, but...

[Kathlene]

This was maybe the biggest initial impetus to my deconversion - Christians taken as a group are no different than any other group of humanity, and the bible certainly promises them to be otherwise. I also think this notion of 'the world' is a false one, the non-Christian world is not a monolith.

 

A major part of my deconversion was realizing that in every practical sense the church was at best another aspect of the world. It's behaviour and values were in no way miraculously different from the rest of the world's.

 

 

Check. Even while a Christian, going to a church, I had to use the same level of caution (about humans) that I would use in traffic, the workplace, or a casino. The same pitfalls were there, the same social games, the posturing, the politics, the discrete egotism.... no different than any other "worldly" venue. Nor was anyone there more gracious than my self (on a good day), more generous, more enlightened, more comforting, or capable of "miracles" or any other kind of extraordinary "powers".

 

In short, the Christians I knew were no better, happier, or more extraordinary than regular agnostic/atheists that I knew. Nor did they have any impressive solutions for the regular problems of life. Nothing there whatsoever but a lot of hoping and dreaming and "you must have faith" that it will "somehow get better", etc.

 

So, where is this "magical edge" that Christians and their communities are supposed to enjoy ? I was getting more spiritual reinforcement out of night school. At least music and the arts were tangible; and you got out of it what you put in...the other was just sitting around dreaming and pretending that some imaginary being was going to make our lives better ? And that's just breaks between the sessions of hand-wringing about how "corrupt" the "outside world" was.

 

I'm afraid that it was a slow realization in some ways that many of these people were still living with a lot of childish fears. Sorry, that's a harsh thing to say, but...

 

 

I really like this post. It gives me a lot to think about. I admit some of it is true as well and I have seen my share of it as well. I do find however, I have found a group of christian women that inspire me and radiate a warmth that I haven't found anywhere else. On the other hand, I have come across christians similar to what you describe here Franko.

 

I dont understand why this is so either. This group of women laugh, have joy, have been through enormous challenges, and yet still stand firm in their beliefs. I am inspired by them, to become one day like them to have such strength inside them, to not run away. If that is a God or worldly thing who am I to say. I hope to be like them when I am going on 60.

[Jedah]

I think it's very important to allow Theists to post their opinions on not just this site, but on any secular website. It shows one of the key differences between rationalism and faith, as the fundy forums tend to either outright ban any atheist that comes to post or heavily censor anything that is said by them.

[Mriana]

Yes, I should have noticed and I'm kicking myself for not making note of it when I posted it, wherever I posted it.

It's a hard word.

 

I tend to write it as "pedistal," which isn't much better. How often do we even use that word? I think I've used it four times the last couple of years... all of them here, in these posts.

 

I've used it more than that. There is a delusional fundie, even delusional by my fellow start Trek friend, who is Xian too, on the Roddenberry board. We are often going around and around about her insanity. It's bad when one's fellow Xians think a person is delusional. This person had the audacity once to call my Xian Star Trek friend, not a Xian because they did not agree on dogma. You should have seen them go at it. My friend will say, "She's off her meds again" every time this person starts going on and on delusionally about Xianity, the Rapture, and all. It's quite funny how two different Xians will use the same book and one of them will say the other is insane. Meanwhile, this person "who is off her meds" jumps me for being "an atheist". It's how she says "atheist" and my friend will jump right in sometimes and defend me with things like, "You can't force a person to be Xian. They have to chose it for themselves. etc etc". It can be a real riot to watch the two of them go back and forth.

[Ouroboros]

I've used it more than that. There is a delusional fundie, even delusional by my fellow start Trek friend, who is Xian too, on the Roddenberry board. We are often going around and around about her insanity. It's bad when one's fellow Xians think a person is delusional. This person had the audacity once to call my Xian Star Trek friend, not a Xian because they did not agree on dogma. You should have seen them go at it. My friend will say, "She's off her meds again" every time this person starts going on and on delusionally about Xianity, the Rapture, and all. It's quite funny how two different Xians will use the same book and one of them will say the other is insane. Meanwhile, this person "who is off her meds" jumps me for being "an atheist". It's how she says "atheist" and my friend will jump right in sometimes and defend me with things like, "You can't force a person to be Xian. They have to chose it for themselves. etc etc". It can be a real riot to watch the two of them go back and forth.

Yeah. I like the Christian v Christian battles. It becomes even more clear how much the religion is messed up.