To All Of God's Critics

[Thumbelina]

Re: Post 294

 

@Michael

 

 

 

Michael: Thumbelina, you are completely lost in your xian phrases. You are not able to leave your little box and I can understand it.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: Eh, maybe you are right; but the reason is because they are true. However, I do need to learn to relate to atheists etc. I did ADMIT that I can be blunt at times but so are atheists and the like or they generally are so.

 

Michael: You have your picture of "atheists" (maybe the people here are not all atheists) and you are to frightened to be open minded.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina:What are you talking about open minded; are you trying to convert me so that I can loose out on seeing Jesus and having eternal life? To me some atheists are bright and talented and funny and charming and ... I left off the negative stuff for atheists are not perfect.

 

Dude, atheists would not be the main problem in the last days; they will be duped immediately when that devil starts performing "miracles" and they will think they got their "evidence" for God. That devil is going to impersonate Christ and the majority of people will be fooled. So no, the enemy will be in the guise of a Christian and not an atheist. IMO ex atheists/agnostics etc. happen to make wonderful pastors; actually some are kind of nice now and that's why I believe it is such a shame that they will lose out on eternal life or lead others into missing out on eternal life.

 

Michael: That is the reason why a discussion with you does not make any sense.

 

 

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: No no no, you just want me to be atheistic and I tried to picture it for a micro second the other day and that was the worst feeling I ever felt in my life; it's like I felt a little piece of what Jesus felt on the cross; complete darkness. It made me cry and I was almost physically sick. I never want to feel that way again for it was partial hell.

 

Michael: You are just repeating the same stuff over and over again and you are ignoring the answers.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: What am I repeating? What if the answers make no dang sense? and I told you that some on this web site are just debunking without listening to my responses and I happen to recognize some of them so I ignore those and some I just did not get to and with some I will just have to repeat what I said already.

 

Michael:You think that this is a kind of game, that we are throwing stuff at each other in order to "win" the argument. It is about real people sharing real thoughts and emotions and it is useless to get into some kind of "penis comparison".

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: I realize that some on this web site are looking at other options but did you look at the topic of this thread? Also, I admitted that I can be indelicate which is why I tend to address OnceConvinced whom I find to be as cool as a cucumber and Centauri is spunky and passionate but they are both tough and don't seem to get all emotional and stuff. There's this cool chef fellow around here that seemed to be a lot of fun but I think he went all emotional on me. Oooops! do you think I'll get in trouble if he reads this comment?

 

Michael, I chose a writing style that is somewhat of a casual banter and the atheistic types that I have encountered did not mind it; one even told me I spew and need a bib lol, he's hilarious.

 

I do know and realize that atheistic types are all over the net trying to win arguments; they are being taught to do so in their secular colleges philosophy/religious classes and from the numerous atheistic resources out there. They seem to be indoctrinated to show how superior and smart they are for they they shall eventually evolve into gods lol. Eh it's just another spin on new age which is ultimately from the devil. Though the people on this ws seem to be fairly tame (civilized); eh lions? lol. Maybe some good points from Christianity carried over? Yeah yeah I know there are good and bad people everywhere, I'm just teasing.

 

Michael: Do you feel good when you can "slay" people with bible phrases while ignoring their answers? Is this some "training field" for you mission group?Response:

Response:

 

Thumbelina: It is my responses that are being totally ignored.

 

Christians tend to say this about atheists: "DON"T WASTE YOUR TIME!!!!!" but I like atheistic types and I don't know why. My church members have no idea that I'm bothering you guys.

 

Michael: Again: You do not love people, you are just repeating stuff your pastor told you and you have never made the effort to read the bible on your own and make your own conclusions.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: Love to ones fellow man is obeying the last 6 commandments. You are just repeating stuff from the popes and cardinals of the atheists eg. Richard Dawkins et al. The things you all are saying against God and the bible is taken from their encyclicals; again, it is a deception.

 

 

Also, I was opening up that topic when I wrote this: "Objective view: This forum seems to be some sort of support group for people who were fed up with, confused or hurt by religion, Christianity in particular. Some folks seem to be after carpe diem and are sowing some wild oats and atheism gives them the freedom to do so; a minor minority seem to be extremely bigoted toward believers and are quick to attack (maybe because they were badly hurt by religionists). This forum seems to give unbelievers a sense of belonging in a world consisting mainly of believers. Am I at least partially correct?"

 

 

Michael: Most people on this forum have been devoted xians for years and decades. They know their bible (far better than you and most of them better than your pastor), they had their experiences and you treat all those years they have invested in god and xianity as nothing.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: It is not my intention to judge individuals for that is God's job. I do not know their experiences but I know people are people and the bible says a person needs to be born again, so forget that stripe about being born in church etc. A person is not born in church even if their mother bore them in a pew. I KNOW religions across the board have members with church attendance that were/are perfunctory so being in church and going through the motions means nothing if their relationship with God is not right.

 

Michael:Those people were once servants of god. How can you treat them like little kids?

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: It is and was not my intention to treat anyone like little kids; I have looked at comments of posters on here and they have great sense of humors so it does not look like they mind exchanging witticisms with believers. I do realize that some sayings from the bible are hard ones though.

 

Michael: Although we all know how you are thinking about little children. You still believe, that killing children is ok and on the other hand you are disgusted about abortion (I guess you are...). You are sure to have a high moral standard, but you are ignoring the ugliness inside the bible. You are just self righteous and you still have no idea where the people here come from. As long as you are not willing to be open to people you are not a "face to face human being" but just a "shit and run poster", a "kill the atheist machine".

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: Dude, you got all those thoughts from the Dawkin's encyclical.

[Greatest I am]

Re: Post #282

@Greatest I Am

 

 

 

Question:

"Your view of God is rather narrow. Why does God have to be eternal? Shouldn't he have the power to decide to no longer exist? Why couldn't a created being be eternal? Aren't you a "created being", and do you not believe your soul to be eternal?"

Answer:

Thumbelina: Considering God as being eternal is not "narrow" but the opposite actually. God does not and will NOT do pointless things such as making Himself to not exist. A created being has derived life; it is not self existent and therefore eternal life is contingent on an uncreated being and these uncreated beings are God ( The Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Humans DO NOT HAVE eternal souls. You are a live soul, I am a live soul, Shyone is a live soul and your great, great grandmother is a dead soul and my grandfather is a dead soul and Shyone's great great grandmother is a dead soul. Do you get the picture? A person is a soul and death is a sound, dreamless sleep.

 

 

Question:"Was Jesus not created? Do not give that begotten B S please.

Who came first, the Father or the Son. Scripture says that the Father is to serve the Son so why did Jesus die and not the Father doing His service to the Son?

That would be more biblical."

 

Answer:

Thumbelina: No, Jesus was not created. He is a self existent, eternal being. Only Begotten Son just means He has pre-eminence. The Godhead are powerful and loving and selfless beings and I suppose the biblical writers were inspired to describe them like that so us slow- to- understand humans could relate to the relationship between The Father and The Son.

 

How he came about is not relevant. You said the Father should serve the son and I have given you an example where it is reversed with God.

 

Explain why.

 

Regards

DL

[NotBlinded]

Jesus fucking Christ...what an arrogant, deluded person you are.

[Thumbelina]

Post # 296 Valk0010

Valk0010:To thumbelina

 

You probably would say that logic is a gift of god.

Why then can't we apply logic to his deeds.

I know you say he is more powerful then us and are understandings week, but why???

 

Response:

Thumbelina: A lot of God's commands are quite logical, like the 10 commandments. God's truths are absolute but to finite beings it is progressive because they are NOT omniscient. Then add sin on top of it and God comes across as being sort of loopy in His commands The more time one spends with God and the more they obey the truths He has revealed to them then the more truths He will help them understand. It all boils down to the use of the will.

 

Eh, let me give an analogy here, Perez Hilton has just lambasted Miss California for POLITELY disagreeing with his views, so God shows up and displays some of His awesome powers to let everyone know who is in charge. He tells Perez that He does not want him living that type of lifestyle any more and He also tells Miss California that as a Christian she shouldn't be showing her stuff to the whole world like that. They both verbally assent to obey God but in her mind Miss California is thinking " God wants me to be more conservative, He has all this power and I love Him but I also love all the attention I'm getting, I'll behave when God is around but I just have to get attention from the dudes and stir up desires in them even though I'm not their wife." So because Miss California has free will and as long it is not aligned with God's will she won't be truly happy and will have to break God's commandments in order to follow her own desires. Maybe Perez would behave for a while but then as time passes he gets his old feelings again and he's miserable, he wants to live his own life without God's input so he's not happy either. They're both timeservers and unhappy ones at that.

 

God's way is that He usually would not manifest Himself in such a tangible way and He allows us to live outside of His expressed will if we wish in order to see if that is what we really want. He entreats us to do right but He ALWAYS leaves it up to us to choose; eternal life or not. This world is a sort of probation place for man. So let's say Miss California continues down the path of showing her stuff to the world, maybe she picks up some fans and she unwittingly participates in causing some broken relationships. Maybe she learns that because of a stalker she had attracted, there was a suicide of that man's spouse. Maybe then she would see why God told her not to show her stuff like that and maybe she would finally agree that God was right, then she repents and she continues following God and is eventually saved. Maybe Perez would eventually realize that this life is so temporary and that tomorrow is not promised and his life of partying and what not is just not fulfilling after all and he finally turns to God who loves him and has been waiting for him with open arms.

 

My corny analogy was not meant to condemn anybody, It was simply meant to show how God's principles are beneficial and why He allows us to learn the hard way sometimes.

 

Valk0010: He gave us only one method to understand the world, and then intentional does what seems like the most badshit things?

Response:

Thumbelina: 10 Ways That God Communicated/Communicates With Man:

1. Scripture

2.The Prophets & His Son Jesus Christ

3.Appearance of Angels

4. Creation & Creatures

5. Answered Prayer

6.Signs and Circumstances

7.Visions

8. Dreams

9.Audible Voice

10.Still Small Voice.

 

God Spoke/Speaks To: Prophets, authors of the bible, those obedient to His will and His word, those who He is trying to turn away from sin, those whom He has chosen for a special work, truth seeking sheep, followers of Christ and ANYONE who is earnestly seeking Him.

 

With all of that man can and will use their free will to choose to NOT follow God

[Thumbelina]

Re: Post # 296 Valk0010

 

Valk0010: I call BS and say what I think, and why there is holes in every religion that I have looked at.

 

Religion is meant to explain the unexplainable and be a working system, for its very self preservation.

 

That is where you get things like faith and god is mystery, to cover the stuff that the original ideas didn't cover?

Response:

Thumbelina: You seem to be looking at religion to find God. You're supposed to find God and then be open to find a religion that teaches His principles. That's how it happened for me; I found God and then I looked around at different religions.One Christian tried to push religion down our throat but since I had found God already I knew he wasn't God's spokesman, for God is not overbearing like that. I observed a religion that had loud drums as part of their rituals and I think in some sects of it they sacrificed chickens, that one scared the crap outta me. I looked at Hinduism which I thought was utter rubbish, eh I was just looking at their rituals etc. I looked at Muslims and what I saw was guns and weed, weed and guns, lots of wives (eeeeew) and eventually violent acts that eventually got people killed including the mother of my mother's best friend.

 

I looked at Catholicism and thought that they were idol worshipers and their teachings were almost as silly as the Hindus'. I looked at religious programs on T.V. and saw Pat Robertson and thought that he was talking nonsense. I looked at a # of name it and claim it prosperity preaching preachers and thought that they were full of hooey. This one teacher I met was a godly woman and I loved her and she used to tell us about God a lot; I even purchased a book from her and I liked it but yet something was telling me this is not it. I believed God existed but I eventually just didn't bother pursuing spiritual things for a while. Every now and then I would want to know more about God and church and occasionally I still had the overbearing Christian trying to push his religion down our throats.

 

I met some Christians who were doing some bible studies with me and I went to church with them and the fellowship was wonderful, the people were totally friendly. I went to the Pastor's house and his wife was giving me some sort of bible study and when I asked her about a certain commandment that the overbearing Christian kept telling me about she was uncomfortable and she changed the subject. Well, as providence would have it, a few months later I learned about church history from secular sources and I got the answer to the question that the Pastor's wife deflected.

 

It turned out that the overbearing Christian was right after all; though I did not like his attitude, he was telling the truth! Eventually we went to some evangelistic meeting that the overbearing Christian invited us to and the first person we sat next to was sooooo unfriendly and after the meeting was over some of the young people were pushing and I was thinking that they were uncivilized. We did not join the church at that time but the overbearing Christian did not give up In my heart something was telling me over the years that he was right; now in hindsight I realize that it was God's Spirit gently leading me. We got invited to another evangelistic series and it was at that one that I eventually got baptized. The people were super friendly too except for one or two. I don't regret it one bit, awwwww the bible is God's word and it is a beautiful love letter to us and these Christians though far from perfect I find to most closely follow the teachings of the bible.

 

Oh yeah some little miracles that happened: One time an unseen hand tapped my mom and she heard a voice telling her to go to church. Stuff like this happens to people all the time; a year or two ago my mom and I were looking at a testimony on T.V. and this couple was secular and God was convicting them, the lady wanted to just smoke her cigarettes and "enjoy life" and what not and she said that during an evangelistic meeting that they went to she felt a hand tap her on her leg and she thought it was her husband and she told him "don't you ever do that again!!!!" lol and he did not even touch her; yup it was an angel. when my mom and I heard that we gave each other a knowing look for the same thing had happened to her.

 

When I was preparing for baptism I did not really have church clothes and the two skirts I had were too short and would not have been appropriate for church and I did not really have money to buy church clothes. Well, my Jesus took care of it, I was going to a cousin's house and ended up on a wrong bus so I had to get off, I started walking and wasn't really sure where I was, it was sort of dismal and gloomy out and as I walked $10 blew up against me, I picked it up and looked around and no one was there; I took a few more steps and $10 blew up again just like it did before and no one was around. Ha ha, I guess Jesus did it like that so I could see it as providence and not coincidence. It just so happens that my cousin could sew and she had materials that could make me a skirt and that is what she did she made me a lovely skirt and she did it for free. I used the 20 bucks that I got on the street to buy some cloth in the flea market; a beautiful cloth and my cousin made a lovely outfit for me and that is the outfit I wore on the day of my baptism. During my time as a Christian I have seen a # of God's Providences and it just affirms how much He loves me

 

Valk0010: I will leave you with a example

 

How is it that all of the modern biologists that accept evolution(I would argue you can't be a credible biologist and not accept evolution, but thats another point for another time) are wrong yet some bronze age or less people god it right?

Response:

Thumbelina: God looks more at I WILL instead of IQ. Back in biblical times those Pharisees were incredibly intelligent and well learned but it got to their heads and Jesus basically said, I can't work with them and He went and found some willing fishermen, tax collectors etc to be His disciples. Every person has a measure of faith and it is up to them to increase it or reject it.

 

You are going to say its god breathed, but then why the differing accounts, even if the bible didn't contradict, its still we be way mor languid and flush in covering details, look at the differences between genesis one's creation account and the other one for example.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The entire bible complements itself. Languid? No way man! When that magical book starts to open up it's like WOW!!!!!!! It's indescribable! Some of the bible is written in chiastic structure. It's a teaching tool. Jewish people had to memorize entire portions of the bible so the way it was written was like a newspaper headline and then as you continue reading it recaps and then it expounds and enlarges on the theme.That's how come the part of Genesis you mentioned is written like that.

[Thumbelina]

Re: Post #298

@ Valk0010

 

 

 

Valk0010: In the bit where you say earth for now

 

can you for a second consider that statement

 

If the earth is just going to come to a end then why be green

 

why not just litter away

 

why not continue discovering things and just become fatalistic for the end of the world

 

I think for these kinds of reasons and more, the idea of end times theology is immoral

 

thumbelina your thoughts

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The Bible teaches that the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. I told you all in another thread that God owns it all. Believers are stewards and are supposed to take care of the earth, their fellow man and thier own bodies. No man knows the day or the hour of Jesus' return but we are to occupy and do good until Jesus does return.

[Thumbelina]

Re:Post #297

@ ContraBardus

Posted 23 April 2010 - 02:23 AM

 

ContraBardus: Thumbelina, I'm still a bit fuzzy about the whole premise of this thread.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Atheists and the like are claiming to not believe in God and yet they are ALWAYS talking about Him (His Word is about Him) AND criticizing Him and I kind of got tired of it. So when I saw this ex agnostic dude asking critics those questions (the questions that are at the beginning of this thread) I thought it was a genius idea so I tried it just to see what ideas they would come up with and they are proving God to be right IMO.

 

ContraBardus: I'm not critical of 'God', I'm critical of Christians and their beliefs. Just like I'm critical of Hindu beliefs and Islamic beliefs. There's a difference between criticizing your God and criticizing your belief in God.

I'm no more a critic of the God of Abraham and Jesus than I am a critic of Zeus and Hercules, or Osiris and Horus.

I don't believe in him, and that doesn't make me a critic of him.

The entire premise of the thread is flawed.

I am critical of the Bible, but I'm also critical of the Sutras, the Qua'ran, or any other spiritual text. I don't treat Christian beliefs any different than any other spiritual beliefs.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Good, be critical of the teachings but for heaven's sake still talk to God but not in a casual nonchalant way cuz that WILL NOT WORK. There's this man I saw on TV and he said he spent I think maybe 20 years looking for God in an objective way and he compared the major world religions and the God of Christianity won. His name is Subodh Pandit MD

 

ContraBardus: Why do you? How exactly are you so sure that you've got it right when they've got it wrong? Their claims of experience, miracles, and speaking to their spirits and deities are no different than the Christians. They can easily match any claims you might make about your own spiritual experiences.

So what makes them so wrong exactly? Why is your God correct, and why should I consider him above any other God? What evidence do you have that they do not?

Personal anecdotes don't work, because they have them as well. What can you come up with that couldn't be matched by any other religion?

What is it that makes your God so different? Why is he special?

Personal experience and feelings don't amount to much, because they all make the exact same kinds of claims too.

Why should I take your claims any more seriously than theirs?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Well as I told Valk0010, I had a sort of experience with God when I was younger and then over time I kept seeing His Providences in my life. I also GREATLY ADMIRE/D the morality taught in the bible and also the biblical God claims to be The Creator. He differs from other gods because well He is the Creator and He knows the future. The prophecy in Daniel Chapter 2 is astounding! He is also loving and kind and has a WONDERFUL sense of humor; He's altogether wonderful. He is the redeemer of mankind too. Yeah we can't totally depend on feelings because angels are ministering spirits and we have a heap of fallen ones down here that can really work havoc with our feelings. They can also counterfeit miracles too so sometimes a seeming miracle is not always reliable.

 

Ask God if I'm right but you really have to be sincere when asking.

 

 

 

 

ContraBardus:There isn't anything wrong with critical thinking. You should question the validity of anything, including the basis of spiritual beliefs.

Only idiots and con artists paint criticism of their claims as a bad thing. It's bad for them when people question their claims and try to use rational thinking to question what supports them.

Rational thinking and questioning of the basis of anything isn't a bad thing.

Asking for evidence to support claims is not a negative quality in a person, but rather makes for a more intelligent and rational discussion.

Deflecting such questions and using irrelevant or irrational assertions in place of answers is a sign of weakness in the claims or beliefs being discussed. If the argument fails to stand up to criticism, there's no reason to believe that it's true.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I agree, did you not read my thread on Is God Being A Pain In The Neck When He Commands Us To Worship Him?"

Critics don't seem to understand how utterly horrible sin is and they seem to think a little sin should be tolerated by a Holy God. They don't realize that this planet is in such a mess because Eve "only ate a little piece of fruit". Look how fast the first murder happened; all because created beings deviated from God's will.

 

ContraBardus:I've yet to see any Christian arguments for spiritual claims stand up to criticism. The basis of apologetics is deflection and misdirection, not providing evidence or rational answers to difficult questions.

Throughout this entire thread, all I've seen is exactly that, deflection and misdirection. Using only quotes from a questionable sources with no corroborative backing or supportive evidence.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:There is no eyewitness account of an evolutionary theory of origins, proponents of it are believing it based on FAITH, just like religious folk believe in creation based on faith. There are only THEORIES and these Scientists who are PUSHING their THEORIES have an AGENDA. They intimidate believers with their high-sounding technical language and they use vitriols in order to achieve it. I call them los diablitos (though there might be some who actually are unbiased and are actually using the scientific method the way it is supposed to be used). The base of the evolutionary theory of origins is riddled with unscientific inconsistencies, often concealed under the gobbledygook of scientific jargon. That's so that they can deceive people!

 

As for the origin of humans, Darwin said that we came from monkeys and when these scientists/philosophers realized that people are insulted by that they changed Darwin's story to say humans had a common ancestor with the monkeys. They have no qualms about lying either because it's just survival of the fittest with no God to judge and they just have ANOTHER non-religion religion. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ATHEISTS CANNOT BE ETHICAL OR MORAL; THE BIBLE SAYS THE HOLY SPIRIT STRIVES WITH EVERYONE. So atheists/unbelievers can also see or know wrong from right; some might even end up in heaven without knowing how they ended up there and then they will ask Jesus"Who are you?!" lol.

 

 

 

ContraBardus: Your answers seem to be little more than 'this is what the Bible says' with no rational reason why we should think it's correct, or 'this is my opinion' with no supportive evidence indicating why we should respect that opinion.

One should always remember that not every idea is equally valid and worthy of respect, and that we must simply tolerate the opinions of others, and have no obligation to respect them or consider them valid without good reason.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Uh, people have been asking about what the bible says and the bible is its own expositor. The thread is about critics ideas on improving upon what The God of the bible did.

All I see so far is they would have a universe that is run like this planet but without any physical calamity or they would create mindless zombies with no free will.Yeah and we do tend to go off topic but I have been trying to answer some of the questions that folk have been asking ABOUT THE BIBLE. If people don't believe in God then it is IMPOSSIBLE for them TO PLEASE HIM or understand the bible.

 

ContraBardus: You've yet to actually supply any good reasons here to validate your claims or support your opinions.

So, why should we believe you over everyone else? What more do you have over the claims of other spiritual beliefs that makes yours so special exactly?

You happen to like the characters more? You think more of their motivations?

Near as I can tell, that's the entire basis of your belief. You like Jesus, and consider his sacrifice noble.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I CANNOT get someone who has already purposed in their heart to NOT believe in God to believe in Him. They have to be open to Him and then they WILL find Him. God is a gentleman and He does not violate free will. As I said in another post I had experiences with Jesus and I do love His teachings. I find that they work.

 

 

 

ContraBardus: I happen to find the book poorly written and the characters rather one dimensional I didn't care for the motivations, nor did I find the contents particularly noble. At least, not without twisting them out of context and interpolating meaning that was never really present into them.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Well, you are entitled to YOUR opinion and in order to avoid people twisting the scriptures the bible must be compared with itself in order to explain itself.

 

ContraBardus:I fail to see any compelling reasoning in your argument here. It's just not convincing to anyone who isn't already a fan of the Jewish myths your faith is based on.

You've got no backing for your claims. It's just a lot of bald assertions and interpolations. I really can't take it any more seriously than someone telling me what great literature Twilight is.

I don't see it. You've not made a compelling argument or provided any evidence that it's the case.

You've just made an aggressive assertion based on a misrepresented stance.

I really just can't take it seriously and see no reason to accept your claims thus far as having any basis in fact. Why should I?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The bible is Divinely inspired and one magical quality about it is that it DOES NOT yield its secrets to the irreverent and the censurers. If you are close minded about it you will never understand it even if you are 50 times more brilliant than Einstein. I saw an ex - Muslim woman being interviewed and she said that she met and fell in love with Jesus and she is illiterate but she can read and understand the bible. Her husband, a Muslim was not too pleased about her leaving Islam so he took a machete and hacked her up; her flesh was hanging off and she had a big gash in her head, the doctors said she would die but Jesus healed her in 3 or 4 days, the doctor saw a miracle and now he's curious about Jesus.

[NotBlinded]

 

Thumbelina: You seem to be looking at religion to find God.

 

You're supposed to find God and then be open to find a religion that teaches His principles. That's how it happened for me; I found God and then I looked around at different religions.One Christian tried to push religion down our throat but since I had found God already I knew he wasn't God's spokesman, for God is not overbearing like that. I observed a religion that had loud drums as part of their rituals and I think in some sects of it they sacrificed chickens, that one scared the crap outta me. I looked at Hinduism which I thought was utter rubbish, eh I was just looking at their rituals etc. I looked at Muslims and what I saw was guns and weed, weed and guns, lots of wives (eeeeew) and eventually violent acts that eventually got people killed including the mother of my mother's best friend.

 

I looked at Catholicism and thought that they were idol worshipers and their teachings were almost as silly as the Hindus'. I looked at religious programs on T.V. and saw Pat Robertson and thought that he was talking nonsense. I looked at a # of name it and claim it prosperity preaching preachers and thought that they were full of hooey. This one teacher I met was a godly woman and I loved her and she used to tell us about God a lot; I even purchased a book from her and I liked it but yet something was telling me this is not it. I believed God existed but I eventually just didn't bother pursuing spiritual things for a while. Every now and then I would want to know more about God and church and occasionally I still had the overbearing Christian trying to push his religion down our throats.

Superficial much?

 

So, you found God and then found religion. Like that makes a difference? You still worship the symbols in a religion. No wonder Hinduism seems like rubbish to you. You have the insight of a gnat. You have not bothered to go any deeper than the symbols and the rituals. You then took what symbols you related with and gave those symbols a concrete reality in your version of God. Now God looks the way you want it to. Guess what, you too worship idols.

[NotBlinded]

Response:

Thumbelina: The bible is Divinely inspired and one magical quality about it is that it DOES NOT yield its secrets to the irreverent and the censurers. If you are close minded about it you will never understand it even if you are 50 times more brilliant than Einstein.

Yes, let us know when you have discovered those secrets. You are indeed blind to them. If you knew them, you would know that all religions are pointing to the one truth beyond the mythology.

 

But these things are not to be disclosed to the uninitiated, by whom I mean those attached to the objects of human thought, and who believe there is no superessential Reality beyond, and who imagine that by their own understanding they know it that has made Darkness Its secret place. And if the principles of the divine Mysteries are beyond the understanding of these, what is to be said of others still more incapable thereof, who describe the transcendental First Cause of all by characteristics drawn from the lowest order of beings, while they deny that it is in any way above the images which they fashion after various designs; whereas they should affirm that, while it possesses all the positive attributes of the universe (being the Universal Cause) yet, in a more strict sense, it does not possess them, since it transcends them all; wherefore there is no contradiction between the affirmations and the negations, inasmuch as it infinitely precedes all conceptions of deprivation, being beyond all positive and negative distinctions.

Mystical Theology

Dionysius the Areopagite

 

Move beyond the images and stop worshiping the bible (the object of human thought) and claiming you know the mind, actions, and attributes of God and maybe, just maybe you will understand.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Thumbelina: The bible is Divinely inspired and one magical quality about it is that it DOES NOT yield its secrets to the irreverent and the censurers. If you are close minded about it you will never understand it even if you are 50 times more brilliant than Einstein. I saw an ex - Muslim woman being interviewed and she said that she met and fell in love with Jesus and she is illiterate but she can read and understand the bible. Her husband, a Muslim was not too pleased about her leaving Islam so he took a machete and hacked her up; her flesh was hanging off and she had a big gash in her head, the doctors said she would die but Jesus healed her in 3 or 4 days, the doctor saw a miracle and now he's curious about Jesus.

 

Source? Documentation?

 

What an absolutely ridiculous claim to make.

[florduh]

Jesus healed her in 3 or 4 days

Three or four days. Is that the best he could do? Maybe he wanted her to suffer for a while, so he didn't make it instantaneous. Why not prevent the tragedy in the first place? Mysterious ways, right?

 

Looks like you'll believe anything you read or hear, no matter how absurd, as long as it supports your fantasy. Sorry, things have to make sense and have evidence for them in my world.

[Shyone]

Thumbelina: 10 Ways That God Communicated/Communicates With Man:

1. Scripture

2.The Prophets & His Son Jesus Christ

3.Appearance of Angels

4. Creation & Creatures

5. Answered Prayer

6.Signs and Circumstances

7.Visions

8. Dreams

9.Audible Voice

10.Still Small Voice.

 

1. Scripture exists in other religions, has been edited and altered over time, and is contradictory and even erroneous. It is second or third hand material at best, and unreliable as evidence for the divinity of a god-man, or as evidence for any particular God. Have you not read the Sumerian Scriptures? Babylonian? Egyptian? Hindu? Greek?

2. The prophets made claims and wrote them down. They are not sufficiently reliable in and of themselves as a source to believe in miracles. "Prophets" is just another name for Scripture (see #1). Jesus was a deluded mystic who fooled gullible people in a gullible age. He died. Not very godlike.

3. Several people in insane asylums have seen angels. Their testimony is not sufficient to establish the existence of angels. No one's testimony can establish that because, as Thomas Paine implied, lots of people lie, but no one has seen an angel. Have you? Or do you just believe everything you read from the Koran Bible? Do you beleive that Joseph Smith saw the Angel Moroni?

4. Creation and creatures - all natural. Educate yourself.

5. Answered prayer. Selection bias and really screwy interpretation of reality. You interpret what you pray for as a sign of God if it 1) comes true, 2) doesn't come true. Many people attribute the works of people to God, even when the people are atheists. "Thank God they removed his cancer!" Faith healing is a scam, and you should realize this because amputees are never "healed."

6. Signs and circumstances? How vague can you get? Do you beleive in astrology?

7. Visions. Yep, that'll convince people. Visual hallucinations are really convincing evidence. NOT! They are subjective and personal, and one person's visions can be fabricated or deluded. They are also heavily influenced by one's upbringing. You haven't had visions of Mohammed, and Muslims don't have visions of the Virgin Mary.

8. Dreams. Of all of the ridiculous claims, dreams are mental constructions and nothing more. They occur in the mind. Ever wonder why Muslims don't dream of Jesus?

9. Audible voice. That no one else can hear? Auditory hallucinations could only convince someone that wanted to believe, and when people say they have heard the voice of God, RUN THE OTHER WAY!

10. Still small voice. Also called a conscience.

 

So what you have is 1) stuff that other religions claim too, 2) stuff that can be caused by insanity or presented by liars, 3) Scripture - which other religions also have, and something like faith healing which is bogus.

 

You have convinced yourself.

[Astreja]

No no no, you just want me to be atheistic and I tried to picture it for a micro second the other day and that was the worst feeling I ever felt in my life; it's like I felt a little piece of what Jesus felt on the cross; complete darkness. It made me cry and I was almost physically sick. I never want to feel that way again for it was partial hell.

I've been there Myself, Thumbelina.

 

Twice. Once at age 11, once at age 42.

 

And for much longer than a microsecond, too -- On both occasions, over an hour. Yes, it was frightening and dark and empty, so much so that I nicknamed it the Abyss. Only when I faced it head-on, and accepted it, was I able to deal with it properly. It had such a profound effect on My life that I would do it again without hesitation. If it ever happens to you again, don't look away -- Swallow the lump in your throat and allow yourself to feel the queasy feeling in the pit of your stomach, and take one step at a time. The only way out is through it.

[florduh]

If you knew them, you would know that all religions are pointing to the one truth beyond the mythology.

Sorry, Not Blinded. Do you have any evidence for this sweeping assumption? Show me that there really is "one truth" and that "all religions" point to it. What is that "truth" and how, specifically, do various religions demonstrate this truth?

[Guest Valk0010]

Post # 296 Valk0010

Valk0010:To thumbelina

 

You probably would say that logic is a gift of god.

Why then can't we apply logic to his deeds.

I know you say he is more powerful then us and are understandings week, but why???

 

Response:

Thumbelina: A lot of God's commands are quite logical, like the 10 commandments. God's truths are absolute but to finite beings it is progressive because they are NOT omniscient. Then add sin on top of it and God comes across as being sort of loopy in His commands The more time one spends with God and the more they obey the truths He has revealed to them then the more truths He will help them understand. It all boils down to the use of the will.

 

Valk0010: He gave us only one method to understand the world, and then intentional does what seems like the most badshit things?

Response:

Thumbelina: 10 Ways That God Communicated/Communicates With Man:

1. Scripture

2.The Prophets & His Son Jesus Christ

3.Appearance of Angels

4. Creation & Creatures

5. Answered Prayer

6.Signs and Circumstances

7.Visions

8. Dreams

9.Audible Voice

10.Still Small Voice.

Forgive me for not being satisfied with that. But again the bit about omnipotent and all powerful etc, would still be things of logic so you can't say that oohh because it is beyond us doesn't make the issues escape the problem of logic.

 

Its odd that you say sin would affect our logic. Well then why don't we toss out even religious commentary because it obviously can't because it is fractured by sin understand the book.

No more bible commentaries. I personally though you wouldn't obviously agree at all, through out even the bible, because it is written by people and interpreted by people.

 

The list you gave as far as I understand or know, its all stuff yet to have been proven or by there very nature unprovable to convince anybody outside of the crazy person hearing voices or seeing stuff.

 

Your explanation to get beyond the sin and logic problem you suppose is also self refuting

You would have to already believe it, to get there and think that way, therefore it doesn't work. And I don't know, but usually the person that is most likely going to avoid or rationalize away issues is the one that already is committed themselves to believing it and has the desire to do what they can to make sure its true.

[Guest Valk0010]

Re: Post #298

@ Valk0010

 

 

 

Valk0010: In the bit where you say earth for now

 

can you for a second consider that statement

 

If the earth is just going to come to a end then why be green

 

why not just litter away

 

why not continue discovering things and just become fatalistic for the end of the world

 

I think for these kinds of reasons and more, the idea of end times theology is immoral

 

thumbelina your thoughts

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The Bible teaches that the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. I told you all in another thread that God owns it all. Believers are stewards and are supposed to take care of the earth, their fellow man and thier own bodies. No man knows the day or the hour of Jesus' return but we are to occupy and do good until Jesus does return.

Sure why not

[Guest Valk0010]

Stuff

 

Okay you feel like you have experienced miracles, what says you mind didn't mess with you or play tricks on you. Just the fact that a muslim could claim the same kinds of things, makes your claims off that bat questionable. I recently nearly reconverted to christianity, and you know what I don't think the relief I felt was god speaking to me, it was my mind. So I got peace when i prayed, deep down I for that time had a real small amount of belief in me. Of course rational thought won out, but if you believe something in the slightest things like what I experience and the people of that testimony you can still have a religious experience.

 

Also about the testimony you watched, no person's character is above the possibility of lying or leaving out details or recalling events in different ways then when actually happened. We are all slaves to psychology as well. You would probably say that ahh people that see dead people are just seeing a demon, but how can you prove that. I don't think you can. Something that happens today in the mind would happen yesterday and would happen tomorrow.

 

On that note, just because something is unexplained as of yet, or unexplainable, doesn't necessarily make it god automatically. Just because you have no idea your first guess is not always the right one.

 

You mom is probably a christian I guess, so what she had a religious experience, what does that prove.

 

People also when there religious have a bad habit of attributing to god, what doesn't have to belong nor should belong to god

[Shyone]

I wonder if Thumbelina considers these to be valid reasons for believing in God:

 

1. Appearances of the Virgin Mary, particularly Our Lady of Guadalupe (her image miraculously appeared on a blanket and is still hanging in a Church in Mexico City). Or the Miracle of the Pizza Pan.

2. The Incorruptibles (saints whose bodies have not decayed after many many years.

3. The healing power of fragments of the True Cross and bones of the saints brought back by the Crusaders.

4. Transubstantiation: The conversion of the wafer and wine during communion into the literal body and blood of Jesus. Documented at this web site.

5. The Miracle of Church of St. Legontian (aka the Miracle of Lanciano): A Host (wafer) from the 8th century was transformed into human flesh.

6. A rosary that turned to gold. Sort of.

7. A Recording of Angels singing.

 

Are these acceptable, or do you have different standards for "evidence" than these people?

[Michael]

Re: Post 294

 

@Michael

 

 

 

Michael: Thumbelina, you are completely lost in your xian phrases. You are not able to leave your little box and I can understand it.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina: Eh, maybe you are right; but the reason is because they are true. However, I do need to learn to relate to atheists etc. I did ADMIT that I can be blunt at times but so are atheists and the like or they generally are so.

 

Michael: You have your picture of "atheists" (maybe the people here are not all atheists) and you are to frightened to be open minded.

 

Response:

 

Thumbelina:What are you talking about open minded; are you trying to convert me so that I can loose out on seeing Jesus and having eternal life? (...bla bla bla, shit shit shit, bla bla bla shit follows shit...)

Thumbelina: Dude, you got all those thoughts from the Dawkin's encyclical.

 

You are a paranoid nutcase. How do you know what books I am reading? How do you know, what I am thinking and who inspires me? You are just an idiot. Case fucking closed! Play with yourself and your deluded friends.

 

You might think this aggression is because of the holy spirit or something spiritual "Ha, I have touched the right point..". Please do not consider that you are just an annoying moron. You are a pain in the ass and as far as I am concerned I hate you ("Yes, Jesus told me, that the world would hate me..." bla bla bla.) No way to make you understand. So from me no more answers to your bullshit posts. Prick!

 

 

p.s. Thanks for letting me posting this without censoring it. It felt so good and I promise to not do this often.

[Ouroboros]

Thumbelina sounds extremely similar to Eemaan, but a Christian version.

[florduh]

Thumbelina sounds extremely similar to Eemaan, but a Christian version.

Maybe we should arrange a cage match.

[Ouroboros]

Well, it has been suggested that some might consider it useful.

 

It's just that these two are so infrequent posters. If they were more serious, it would work.

 

No, wait, you meant to ask for pictures... boob pictures. And the one that causes an earthquake in their area wins.

[florduh]

Yes. An earthshaking event to be sure.

[NotBlinded]

1. Scripture exists in other religions, has been edited and altered over time, and is contradictory and even erroneous. It is second or third hand material at best, and unreliable as evidence for the divinity of a god-man, or as evidence for any particular God. Have you not read the Sumerian Scriptures? Babylonian? Egyptian? Hindu? Greek?

She looked at the Hindu rituals Shy. She now knows all there is to know...don't you know?

[NotBlinded]

If you knew them, you would know that all religions are pointing to the one truth beyond the mythology.

Sorry, Not Blinded. Do you have any evidence for this sweeping assumption? Show me that there really is "one truth" and that "all religions" point to it. What is that "truth" and how, specifically, do various religions demonstrate this truth?

Hey, it is a lower case letter "t".

 

Anyway, they are pointing to something beyond the symbols. It's a mystery, unless of course, you have the all the answers?

 

"God" is meant to represent the mystery of existence and the power of life itself. So, if God represents the mystery of life, and this mystery is the power of life itself, they are pointing to this mystery by pondering existence, hence mythology.

 

What truth do you want? Do you want a concrete, linear representation of what this life force is that we are, like Jesus on a stick or God with a beard? I can't give it to you in words or with empirical evidence anymore that I can an emotion. That would be no different than the fundamentalists that claim to "know" this mystery. Bullshit. It's the inner being of people that want to express their wonderment of something they are a part of.

 

Do you want verses or mythological representations of this?