To All Of God's Critics

[Thumbelina]

You are not interested in reality. You do not see people as people, you look at them through the eyes of a self righteous religion. You think that you love people, but you really give a shit about them. And posting tons of shit is not a sign of care, it is a sign of pride and ignorance. Obedience toward your god is not equal real love for real people. You are treating people without any respect.

 

 

OK, so I wasn't supposed to come to this web site today but my conscience was bothering me so I had to. Ah Michael et al who share his sentiments, I am sorry if I came across as being insensitive, I do like satire -- well somewhat milder forms of it cuz too much of it isn't cool and also cuz I am a Christian -- and atheistic types (e.g. Mr. OnceConvinced) generally don't seem to mind it. I started to respond to you the other day for I did start to get a little emotional cuz of what you wrote but I thought I was in trouble already for writing too much and believe it or not, I am an incredibly shy person. As a matter a fact Shyone's name would have been suited to my personality. Speaking of Shyone, I wanted to ask him if he's shy and my mischievous side wanted to tease him cuz of something he asked me in another thread but I didn't do it cuz I was too shy

Anyway, I tend to address the hell topics from the perspective that God is not a torturer without considering too much that people will ultimately end up in hell and I realize it might come across as being indelicate. Also I tend to address it to people like OnceConvinced who don't seem to give a wit and I just wanted him to know that what he THINKS the bible says ain't really so! I forgot that some people may be having emotional issues because they were taught that God is scary, so I'm sorry OK?

However, I do reserve the right to call a spade a spade and if an atheist tells me some hooey, I WILL tell them about it; especially when they're being disrespectful (raised eyebrow)!

 

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

[Thumbelina]

Ok, I couldn't wait until tomorrow. I had to respond tonight.

 

 

 

This quick post is intended to express the views from a biblical and therefore Christian perspective and is NOT intended to be condemnatory to anyone who does not believe as I do.

 

 

"On the topic of rapist marrying their victims.

Thumbelia: . I betcha, those men thought twice about raping any women when they realized that they'll have to marry 'em if they did. "

 

D'oh! I made a boo boo here! I can't believe I slipped up here. Mr. OnceConvinced seems to be repeating what he got from those skeptics and how I ended up repeating a piece of it is beyond me. Maybe cuz I've been tired lately. Anyway, "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest!"

I was lazy and didn't go digging in the bible for this but now I'll give the correct answer that Moses' law had pertaining to rape.

In the OT rapists were killed (See Deut.22:25-27) .

 

It was the dudes that fornicated with the women that had to marry them (see Deut22:28-29). You know the old saying that men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love. Well, those Israelites were doing that too. Men in the bible did tend to treat women like crap, that's one of the things I remember that pissed me off when I started looking at the bible. Those Israeli men wanted to love 'em and leave 'em and in that culture that woman would have been a ruined woman. She would not have been able to get a husband to support her properly but the bigger reason for keeping such a tight reign of those Israelites' morality was because Jesus had to come from a people who basically had Godly values and it worked too. Mary was a God fearing and beautiful young lady.

 

What I should have written was "I betcha, those men thought twice about fornicating with Israelite women when they realized that they'll have to marry 'em if they did.

 

Ugh, Mr OnceConvinced you are absolutely right, I could just imagine that lady who I mentioned that got raped by the guy who smelled funny having to marry him, eeeeeeew, boy oh boy, what the hell was the matter with me?! Heh heh, that was a rhetorical question cuz I am scared of what you lions would write.

 

 

 

I need to stress something here: because God knew/knows or allowed/allows certain situations, it DOES NOT MEAN that that was/is His ideal. He worked/works with what He's got. He's wonderful cuz He could have just scrapped the whole thing or be too chicken to create beings that would rebel but He gave and is giving us a chance at eternal life.

 

Oh Mr. Once--Con--vinced?You did acknowledge that it is a horrific thing for a person to be forced into marriage right? And you do realize that in the bible God likens His followers to a bride and Him as their husband right? You also did say that you won't mind being God's puppet in order to avoid hell, right? lol. Dude, I admire your thinking skills and your ability to be objective so I thought I'd give you some more food for thought here.

 

Hmmmm, my blunder came in handy after all!

 

I don't have time to address the rest of your response or some of the responses of some of the other posters (It's just me; one, and soooo many of y'all) right now, or to refute all of your tummy rot Mr. OnceConvinced but I hope to get to do it by next week if possible.

[Michael]

I forgot that some people may be having emotional issues because they were taught that God is scary, so I'm sorry OK?

However, I do reserve the right to call a spade a spade and if an atheist tells me some hooey, I WILL tell them about it; especially when they're being disrespectful (raised eyebrow)!

 

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away (why do you even make a statement like this?). But you have visited (for some reason) an ex-christian forum to discuss your faith. I know the bible, I know what you are talking about and I am convinced your faith is an illusion. I have used the same phrases, believed the same stuff, sang the same songs and looked at non-xians as you do now. I was convinced that I found the ultimate truth and behaved accordingly.

 

And this "they were taught that god is scary" reveals that you have no idea where the people in this forum come from. If you are not here to understand the people...Why are you here? To preach to the "lost"? Is this some weird service for your god? Do you want to test your faith? Do you think that "the truth will set them free"?

 

I have nothing against you (I do not know you). I just do not want people to preach at me. A discussion? Great! Preaching? No thanks. Sorry if I was grumpy.

[godsfavoritecolor]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

[Shyone]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

Many people have many delusions and not just about religion. When the delusion leads to harmful acts, we lock them up and "treat" their insanity, but it is not illegal to hold ideas that are at variance with reality.

[godsfavoritecolor]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

Many people have many delusions and not just about religion. When the delusion leads to harmful acts, we lock them up and "treat" their insanity, but it is not illegal to hold ideas that are at variance with reality.

 

Hmm. Check the definition of prerogative. I didn't mention legality. Many ideas that are not illegal are not good. Look at religion in Europe over the past 500 years. Thought (doctrine) usually precedes action.

[bdp]

Thumbelina,

 

Nothing personal against you from me, not at all. I know cyber life is not real life, and if we met in real life we'd probably get along and maybe even end up really liking each other - hard to say though because I can be an unreachable introvert. What I really hate is how society has become such an arena of rabid 'US vs. THEM' proposition; it's not enough that a democrat and a republican each has a different idea for solving an issue, each has to try to convince the world that the other is evil and only out for themselves. Same in religion - I'd love for all people to believe what they believe and let others do so in peace, so far as they aren't out to harm anyone. All I'd like to say is that I know all the scripture you post, I've been there, but it just isn't possible for me to believe. Peace to you - and by the way I really like your screen name - and I hope you get something positive out of your time here.

[Michael]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

 

As long as she avoids human or animal sacrifice... and does not humiliate other people because of their unbelieve (or would disbelieve be the right word?). Pressure from the outside makes the delusion even stronger.

[Shyone]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

Many people have many delusions and not just about religion. When the delusion leads to harmful acts, we lock them up and "treat" their insanity, but it is not illegal to hold ideas that are at variance with reality.

 

Hmm. Check the definition of prerogative. I didn't mention legality. Many ideas that are not illegal are not good. Look at religion in Europe over the past 500 years. Thought (doctrine) usually precedes action.

I meant it in this sense:

 

"If it is not illegal, then it is indeed her prerogative (privilege) to be as delusional as she wants."

[godsfavoritecolor]

... What I really hate is how society has become such an arena of rabid 'US vs. THEM' proposition; it's not enough that a democrat and a republican each has a different idea for solving an issue, each has to try to convince the world that the other is evil and only out for themselves. Same in religion - I'd love for all people to believe what they believe and let others do so in peace, so far as they aren't out to harm anyone. ...

 

Sounds good to me. Now, if you could get a few religious people to go along with your idea...

[classicchinadoll]

P.S. It is my prerogative to believe in God if I want to.

 

Certainly you can believe what ever you want to. No one wants to take your faith away ...

 

No one? Speak for yourself! I want to take her (delusions) faith (in God) away. Delusion is bad for the individual and for humanity.

 

Is delusion a prerogative?

Unfortunately, yes

 

Many people have many delusions and not just about religion. When the delusion leads to harmful acts, we lock them up and "treat" their insanity, but it is not illegal to hold ideas that are at variance with reality.

 

infact people are locked up if they are at risk of doing harm to themselves or others not just if they actually do harm.

[Mriana]

OK, so I wasn't supposed to come to this web site today but my conscience was bothering me so I had to.

 

Who told you that you weren't suppose to come to this site today? May I ask you how old you are? If you are a teenager, I can understand someone telling you what sites you can or cannot visit. That happens. However, if you are a grown woman (or man with a female handle), that is or should be your decision, not someone elses.

[OnceConvinced]

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

 

Anyway, I tend to address the hell topics from the perspective that God is not

a torturer without considering too much that people will ultimately end up in

hell and I realize it might come across as being indelicate.

 

This is a problem I see with most Christians and it was the same with me as

one. It's taking the automatic perspective that God is loving, merciful, kind

etc etc. It's putting on the old rose-colored sunglasses and refusing to accept

anything that violates that mindset. It's why Christians like yourself cannot

possibly see the evil in the God they worship. And as a result of that mindset

they have to make the horrible justifications like you have made for the

atrocities committed by God in the bible. As long as you hold the perspective

you do, you can never read the bible with an open mind and see what it's really

showing you. Your views will always be tainted.

 

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

In the OT rapists were killed (See Deut.22:25-27) .

This is talking about married women being raped. A whole different ball game. A

married woman is protected under the law because of the fact they already

belong to someone else (once again a possession issue.). An unmarried woman however is fair game because nobody owns her yet, so thus a man rapes

her, he then gets to own her. Horrible horrible morals. Disgusting treatment of

woman, which your God clearly endorses.

 

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

It was the dudes that fornicated with the women that had to marry them (see

Deut22:28-29).

 

Nope, sorry, these passages here are clearly talking about rape not

fornication. Be consistent with the previous verses. Don't take it out of

context. Are you once again trying to twist scripture by changing the meaning

of words?

 

And let's just assume it is talking about fornication what sort of a stupid law

is that? Make two people who probably don't love each other get married? Once

again appalling on your God's part and just setting two people up for a life of

misery (not to mention their future kids), particularly the woman who becomes

the possession of the man. Cruel and vindictive laws.

 

BTW, I hope you looked early on in this chapter at this verse:

Deu 22:5

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the

LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

 

I hope you always wear dresses, otherwise you're violating God's laws. (also a siden note, notice that it says God hates the person not the sin itself)

 

What do you think of this verse in that chapter.'

 

Deu 22:19

They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver[fn2] and give them to the

girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She

shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

 

Once again is shows women as a possession. This man has decided he doesn't

want her anymore and has slandered her. Now the woman must remain with this man

for the rest of her life. Yes! She is being forced to remain in a loveless

marriage with a man who has tried to have her condemned as a fornicator. What a

cruel act on behalf of your God, making this woman stay in this sham of a

marriage with a man who no longer wants her. Another example of God treating

humans like scum.

 

 

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

You know the old saying that men give love to get sex and women give sex to

get love. Well, those Israelites were doing that too. Men in the bible did tend

to treat women like crap, that's one of the things I remember that pissed me

off when I started looking at the bible.

This is because women were treated like property back then and the writers of

the bible clearly believed that their God intended it that way. Even God's

supposed laws made it this way. That is why there is such a ridiculous law here

whether you see it as rape or as fornication.

 

I'm intrigued Thumbelina. The NT testament changed nothing with regards to

this. Women are still considered second class beings and intended to be

possessions of the men. Why do you violate this scripture here?

 

1 Timothy 2:11–15

 

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman

to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was

formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who

was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing–

if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety

 

Why are you violating God's law by coming here and preaching? According to the

bible you are not permitted to do this. I personally have no problem with it,

but as far as God is concerned you are simply a possession of man and have no

real rights. That is why you would be forced to marry any man that has sex with

you (even if he is a rapist) and why Lot so easily sent out his daughters to be

mob raped.

 

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

Those Israeli men wanted to love 'em and leave 'em and in that culture that

woman would have been a ruined woman. She would not have been able to get a

husband to support her properly but the bigger reason for keeping such a tight

reign of those Israelites' morality was because Jesus had to come from a people

who basically had Godly values and it worked too. Mary was a God fearing and

beautiful young lady.

Even if this justification was correct and you are right about your assumptions

here, it still relegates a woman to possession status. And who says that the

woman would ever want to marry the man? Just because a woman has sex with a

man does not mean they want to marry them. And the fact that she would become

a "ruined" woman is all because of God's silly laws about adultery and

fornication. It is his rules that have turned any women who has sex outside of

marriage into a "harlot", whereis for a man, it's different. That is why women

were shunned like this. If God had been a loving and fair God he would have

made rules that prevented men from treating women in this way. Sorry, Thumb,

but all throughout the bible women are portrayed as men's possessions with no

real rights. And I think, based on your comment earlier you realise this. You

have allowed yourself to be conned into believing you are equals with men in

the bible God's eyes. Clearly it is not the case.

 

We live in a changed society. Men realise now they can't get away with that

sort of sexist crap. So now they try to manipulate scripture to keep women

happy. But if it's as you say and that God never changes, then your status has

not changed in God's eyes.

 

 

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

Oh Mr. Once--Con--vinced?

Ha ha ha , Thum-belind-a. I notice how you have typed this. The only thing I

was ever conned into, was worshiping an imaginary genicidal deity for over 30

years of my life. Even then, I don't refer to it as being conned. I was

brainwashed and indoctrinated from an early age by people who genuinely

believed they were doing what God wanted. But I got wise to the BS and my

eyes have been opened. I am no longer living under that delusion anymore.

No one is conning me anymore.

 

 

It is you that has been conned, Thum-

belind-a into thinking that God sees you as an equal to man, when clearly he

intended you to be property of man, as shown throughout the bible. You are

blind if you can't see that. Modern Christian leaders have conned you into

believing you are their equal just to keep you around so that you can serve

them and give them sex.

 

[quote name=Thumbelina' date='25 March 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1269536626'

post='545354]

I don't have time to address the rest of your response or some of the responses

of some of the other posters (It's just me; one, and soooo many of y'all) right

now, or to refute all of your tummy rot Mr. OnceConvinced but I hope to get to

do it by next week if possible.

I'm not really interested in all your tummy-rot-preaching (which the bible says

as a woman you're not permitted to do). I'd just like you to focus on my

original post. I understand your time is limited, but until you do deal with

that, then it just convinces me more that you have no refutation against any of

it.

 

Also remember, when you do get around to it, that your thread was not aimed at

trying to solve the problem of sin after the fact. Your thread was asking us to

determine how we would create life at the beginning. My solutions would

undoubtedly solve the majority of the sin issue.

 

Imagine if you felt pain every time you told a lie. Would you keep on lying?

Probably not, unless you were a masochist or mentally ill. But then your

problems run a lot deeper and you'd need some serious psychological help (like

that rapist bastard you mentioned in an earlier post). Violation of free will?

OF course not, because you can keep on lying if you really want to, just as we

could touch a burning hot element if we wanted to, or climb up a sheer rock

face without safety equipment if we wanted to. Our freewill is intact in my

scenario, it's just that there is a safety mechanism/deterrent. I know myself

that if I felt pain every time I lied, I would be a lot less likely to lie,

wouldn't you? Sounds like good design to me.

 

What if whenever you were tempted to steal something you felt overwhelming fear

or guilt? Would you continue to steal? Most likely not. But most thieves don't

have these feelings when they think about stealing something. Imagine if they

did, there would be a lot less theft. But yet, they could still steal if they

really wanted to push through all that. No violation of freewill there. A

normal human being would probably not steal if they felt those feelings.

 

But your God, in his infinite wisdom put none of these safety mechanisms in his

creations. It seemed he was more concerned with our physical wellbeing than our

spiritual wellbeing. He put in fear and pain for that! Yet he knew the

ramifications of not doing that for our spiritual wellbeing, because he was

omniscient and knew the mess he was about to allow to be unleashed on his

creation.

 

I look forward to seeing how you can show my suggestions as being tummy rot.

Bet you can't.

[StevoMuso]

An unmarried woman though, however is fair game because nobody owns her yet, so thus a man rapes

her, he then gets to own her. Horrible horrible morals. Disgusting treatment of

woman, which your God clearly endorses.

This is a fascinating thread - reading your debate Thumbelina and OnceConvinced.

 

Here is a nice scripture in support of OnceC: Judges 21:20-23 tells the story of how the tribe of Benjamen was running short of women to marry. They go to a neighboring country and find some girls dancing in a vineyard. They capture them and take them back to Israel to become their wives. They are clearly following their rights as described in the quote above. In modern secular society that would be considered kidnapping and rape, but in Biblical times it seems that raping them gave them right of ownership.

[dagnarus]

This is talking about married women being raped. A whole different ball game. A

married woman is protected under the law because of the fact they already

belong to someone else (once again a possession issue.). An unmarried woman however is fair game because nobody owns her yet, so thus a man rapes

her, he then gets to own her. Horrible horrible morals. Disgusting treatment of

woman, which your God clearly endorses.

 

Just a little correction, married women are only actually protected if they are in the country-side if their raped in a city they get stoned to death to.

[agnosticator]

I agree. If some sick bastard killed my kids I would personally rip him to pieces with my bare hands, no matter WHO he asked to forgive him. And sorry, but the wrong would have been done against ME, not God, so I would be the only one with the right to grant forgiveness, not God. And do you know what? I wouldn't forgive him. I would want restitution, and since that would not be possible to grant, I would demand that the perpetrator be removed from society permanently.

 

To my mind the doctrine of forgiveness is one of the sickest, most morally corrupting teachings in Christianity.

 

I'm behind once again! I've been too busy.

 

The "doctrine of forgiveness" has definitely screwed my life up in the past. Trying to live like that makes us willing victims of all the creepy, slimy sickos. I also think "white collar" criminals are equal to murderers, in that they destroy lives and make those lives a living hell. So I agree that we have the right to withold forgiveness, and the system should make sure they are "removed from society permanently".

[StevoMuso]

I'm behind once again! I've been too busy.

Welcome back bro - wondered where you got to

 

The "doctrine of forgiveness" has definitely screwed my life up in the past. Trying to live like that makes us willing victims of all the creepy, slimy sickos. I also think "white collar" criminals are equal to murderers, in that they destroy lives and make those lives a living hell. So I agree that we have the right to withold forgiveness, and the system should make sure they are "removed from society permanently".

I agree. What makes it all so evil in my view is that someone can ask God forgiveness for something that wronged another person. What has God (or any third party) got to do with anything? Forgiveness should only be sought from the person wronged. I think this creates a feeling (in some believers) that it's okay to do wrong things coz they can ask forgiveness from God afterwards. They think asking God for forgiveness makes "everything alright" again. This creates a false sense of morality, and teaching the doctrine of divine forgiveness to children could IMO turn them into morally immature adults.

[agnosticator]

 

Welcome back bro - wondered where you got to

 

Thanks. I have too many brands in the fire, with little down time. I guess I'll make up for it when, or if, I retire!

 

What makes it all so evil in my view is that someone can ask God forgiveness for something that wronged another person. What has God (or any third party) got to do with anything? Forgiveness should only be sought from the person wronged. I think this creates a feeling (in some believers) that it's okay to do wrong things coz they can ask forgiveness from God afterwards. They think asking God for forgiveness makes "everything alright" again. This creates a false sense of morality, and teaching the doctrine of divine forgiveness to children could IMO turn them into morally immature adults.

 

Yeah, and I still wonder why I believed that a third party could be central to the whole sin/forgiveness, reward/punishment story. It is not believed in a court of law, yet we swear on the wholly bable there. It tells you how believers' minds are severely compartmentalized.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina: The thief on the cross who accepted Jesus and the dead children of believers who did not reach the age of accountability and that includes babies.

Centauri: Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?

Response: As humans we are made in God's image, God gave us deductive reasoning capabilities so in certain instances in the bible where certain instructions are not spelled out in black and white we can understand what is intended by the principles God has laid out. Eg. The bible does not say thou shalt not eat arsenic but based on certain principles one knows not to do it cuz that would be murder/suicide and that would be breaking God's 6th commandment.

 

Anyway, to answer your question ...

This is a quote: "Well in the Bible, it doesn’t specify a specific age because God looks on the heart; and let’s face it, children mature in their understanding of right and wrong at different ages.

God is not like the government who says well you’ve reached this birthday – now I’m going to judge you differently. He looks at their comprehension.

And the general age you find in the Bible will be somewhere around 12. That’s when Jesus went to the temple. That’s when Jews bar mitzvah their children at 13. And you notice that during puberty, they start to understand some of the spiritual ramifications of right and wrong, the eternal consequences.

I mean it’s not fair to take a seven year old and consign them to eternal death for sins that they just didn’t understand what the consequences were; or to treat them the same way as someone who’s more mature and does understand.

So generally speaking, when they’re old enough to be baptized, which is usually somewhere between nine and 16, depending on how fast they mature, that’s when they would be reaching that age of accountability."

...............................

 

Thumbelina: It's describing a battle between Christ and Satan, they're showing the universe who is right, The Creator or the creatures and it shows a spiritual battle between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The entire bible expounds and enlarges on that theme.

Centauri:The entire Bible does not expound on that theme.

Cite one verse from the Old Testament where Satan disobeys an order from God.

Response: Have you looked at the bible? It's all about the battle between people striving to follow God and about people trying to oppose them; even if the person's enemy is themself.

And you and your LOADED questions! NOTHING EVER HAPPENS WITHOUT GOD PERMITTING IT TO HAPPEN. However, God always states what His ULTIMATE will is; it is up to the creatures to obey or not. We see God intervening to physically change the course of stubborn, self-willed creatures in the bible. Eg. Jesus was about to kill Moses when Moses disobeyed Him by not circumcising his son. He sent a fish to get Jonah and He showed stupid Balaam what His wishes were and several times God physically intervened to stop Balaam from a wrong course. Both Moses and Jonah eventually repented of their sins but stupid Balaam never did. Moses and Jonah inherited eternal life; Balaam inherited eternal death (i.e.oblivion).

Here, try this web site to search for those passages if you're actually interested : www.blueletterbible.com

.......................

 

Thumbelina: God had a contingency plan, He had to add some TEMPORARY laws in order to protect Jesus, The Messiah.

Centauri:Where did Moses say that God’s laws were temporary and were given to protect Jesus?

Chapter and verse please.

 

Response:

This is another quote:

"Are God's law and Moses' law the same?

 

Answer: No, they are not the same. Study the following notes and comparison carefully.

Note: Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross. This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." Psalms 111:8. That there are two laws is made crystal clear in Daniel 9:10, 11.

Special Note: Please note that God's law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15. So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law (sinned--1 John 3:4). Because of sin (or breaking God's law), Moses' law was given (or "added"--Galatians 3:16, 19) till Christ should come and die. Two separate laws are involved: God's law and Moses' law.

 

MOSES' LAW

Called "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22). .

Called "law ... contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15).

Written by Moses in a book (2 Chronicles 35:12).

Placed in the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:26).

Ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15).

Added because of sin (Galatians 3:19).

Contrary to us, against us (Colossians 2:14).

Judges no one (Colossians 2:14-16).

Carnal (Hebrews 7:16).

Made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

 

 

 

GOD'S LAW

 

Called "the law of the Lord" (Isaiah 5:24).

Called "the royal law" (James 2:8).

Written by God on stone (Exodus 31:18; 32:16).

 

Placed inside the ark (Exodus 40:20).

Will stand forever (Luke 16:17).

Points out sin (Romans 7:7; 3:20).

Not grievous (1 John 5:3).

Judges all people (James 2:10-12).

Spiritual (Romans 7:14).

Perfect (Psalms 19:7).

 

 

 

 

..................................

 

 

Thumbelina:Oh, oh, you also know, because of a prophecy, that the entire world will be saved because a child born from your lineage would be the Messiah.

Centauri:Only males can pass kingships and titles.

Jesus had no biological father, never sat on the throne of David, and didn’t perform the tasks of a king messiah.

 

Response:

Dude, Jesus' kingdom was/is not of this nasty ol' world, He came in order to lay down His life for His friends. He came to lay down a spiritual kingdom. This world will be destroyed and He will create a new one (That's why those Muslims and Jews are wasting their time fighting). Jesus came and took back from the devil what Adam had lost, I mean sure He's still allowing Satan to run rampant down here and that's cuz He has to allow sin to come into full fruition so that un-fallen beings as well as us can see how utterly horrendous sin actually is. The lineage in the bible is kinda convoluted, the main point of it is to show a people who held on by FAITH to God. There's something called a kinsman redeemer mentioned in the bible, the kinsman redeemer could also preserve the family line of a deceased male relative by marrying his widow and providing an heir (Deut. 25:5-6). Those Israelites were sexist but God isn't; in God's eyes men and women are created equal it's just that in certain instances they may have different roles.

 

"... there are places where the genealogy of Joseph and Mary merge and they intersect, Mary and Joseph were related also. So it doesn’t really matter. Through either one of their genes, Jesus was the son of David."

 

Jesus was related biologically through Mary and adopted by Joseph but who knows maybe God took some of Joseph's sperm without Him knowing and did the miracle that way lol.

 

Anyway, the point is Jesus had a good mother and a wonderful step-dad who were both Israelites:) Therefore mission was accomplished.

 

....................................

 

Thumbelina:God's truth is absolute but to finite beings it is progressive However, God is willing to share mysteries with us.

Centauri:What is the truth about eating pork?

Is it offensive to God? A yes or no will suffice here.

Yes

..........................................

 

Thumbelina: If one reads Mark 4:11-12 one would see why close minded individuals definitely would not understand the bible .

People who have willing hearts will hear and understand the parables and to those who are not willing to understand it can really seem to be convoluted.

Centauri:Jesus deliberately obfuscated those particular messages, only revealing the secrets to his inner circle.

It has nothing to do with having a closed mind.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

His own disciples couldn’t understand it until he explained it to them in private.

 

Response:

lol. It didn't say they would get it immediately but EVENTUALLY; they had soft hearts, but the ones who had hard hearts were self deceived and they instigated Jesus' demise and to this day their descendants tend to close their eyes to the fact that the Messiah (anointed one) did come. I mean duh, why do they think He instructed their ancestors to sacrifice all those spotless animals; yup, it foreshadowed the sacrifice He was to make for mankind.

 

..................................................................................................................

 

 

Thumbelina, on 23 March 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

 

Centauri: Congratulations, you’ve just defined Paul as the Devil.

Predestination voids free will.

Eph 1:4-5,11 shows that at least some people are predestined to their belief and worship.

God also manipulates human behavior if it suits his purposes.

You’ve also misused the word “free”.

The choice to worship God isn’t free, it’s an ultimatum.

Response:

Hey buddy, God had/has a preference, it was/is His will for all His intelligent creatures to choose to be with Him for eternity but that just isn't a reality. You are somewhat correct when you wrote this :"The choice to worship God ..., it’s an ultimatum."

Either one chooses the free gift of salvation or they choose the 2nd death i.e. to go back to nothingness.

 

 

Thumbelina: God cannot and would not predetermine the free, spiritual acts of man. If those acts are predetermined, they are not free.

Centauri:The Bible says otherwise:

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What does the word predestine mean?

Whose purpose drives the events?

According to whose will are these things done?

 

Response:

Oy vey! The use of the word predestined just means God already knows who would accept Him and it just so happens that decision pleases Him. God is allowing this great controversy between Him and Satan play out in order for finite beings to comprehend why God HAS TO HAVE HIS COMMANDMENTS; He's allowing creatures to experiment with lawlessness if they so choose and from the looks of this planet God is 100% correct; duh! of course He's correct cuz He's Omniscient.

 

 

Thumbelina: God made everything good. It was creaturely self-corruption or their misuse of their free will that caused all the mess.

Centauri:Your “free will” dogma is a fairy tale if the Bible is to be taken seriously.

If God created everything perfect and good, then a created being cannot sin.

As soon as it sins, it shows that it wasn’t made perfect.

 

Response:

It's precisely because God allowed free will why sin was able to come about. Stupid devil allowed his feelings of covetousness and pride to take over and now look at the mess in this planet because of it!

 

 

Thumbelina: Pharaoh hardened his own dang heart!

Centauri:That’s not what the text says.

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

Response:

By God's constantly upping the ante on Pharaoh's punishments it caused Pharaoh to harden his heart -- just like the devil -- Pharaoh did not humble himself before the Omnipotent One. He was a virtual atheist. If He had just left the Israelites go, much of those plagues and the resulting demise of his army could have been avoided but that's how sin is; it makes one ridiculously irrational. AGAIN, God just knew that that nincompoop of a Pharaoh would not acquiesce until some major calamity occurred and even then Pharaoh used his free will to NOT to worship the creator God.

[Shyone]

Centauri:The entire Bible does not expound on that theme.

Cite one verse from the Old Testament where Satan disobeys an order from God.

Response: Have you looked at the bible? It's all about the battle between people striving to follow God and about people trying to oppose them; even if the person's enemy is themself.

And you and your LOADED questions! NOTHING EVER HAPPENS WITHOUT GOD PERMITTING IT TO HAPPEN. However, God always states what His ULTIMATE will is; it is up to the creatures to obey or not. We see God intervening to physically change the course of stubborn, self-willed creatures in the bible. Eg. Jesus was about to kill Moses when Moses disobeyed Him by not circumcising his son. He sent a fish to get Jonah and He showed stupid Balaam what His wishes were and several times God physically intervened to stop Balaam from a wrong course. Both Moses and Jonah eventually repented of their sins but stupid Balaam never did. Moses and Jonah inherited eternal life; Balaam inherited eternal death (i.e.oblivion).

Here, try this web site to search for those passages if you're actually interested : www.blueletterbible.com

.......................

 

Thumbelina: God had a contingency plan, He had to add some TEMPORARY laws in order to protect Jesus, The Messiah.

You don't answer his questions at all. This reminds me of a political debate where a specific question is answered with "talking points" on a (hopefully) related subject that are pre-prepared.

 

The above is just one example.

 

You also continue to misquote or misstate your own bible. Pharoah didn't "harden his heart." God did according to your scriptures (for one example).

 

Exo. 4

21. The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

22. Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

23. and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"

 

Incidentally, why is it ok to kill someones innocent son for an adult's crimes?

 

Your distinction between God's Law and Moses Law is arbitrary. Have you ever read the Old Testament?

 

When Jesus referred to "The Law" he was talking about the entirety of the laws in the Torah (aka "The Law").

 

Luke 16:17. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

 

And when Jesus said in Matt. 5, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets" you should know that he was referring to the entire body of law from the Old Testament.

 

"No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD."

 

Your "cut and paste" apologetics displays your own ignorance and unwillingness to actually do the work. I say to you, get your hands dirty by touching the blood soaked passages and read the words that are recorded as belonging to God. One day you might read something that suddenly sticks: If you have a daughter and a husband, you just might cringe at the idea of sacrificing your daughter as Jephthah did, or standing with your children as Moses, instructed by God, points at you and says,

 

"This one we can kill, and her little boy, but her little girl - oooohhhh she's too delicious! We'll keep her and have our way with her."

 

Your bible is disgusting, and that makes you the one that has no moral standing.

 

I realize that this is an advanced concept for you - that you have to know right from wrong - but you really should think to yourself, "Is this a moral act?"

[bdp]

Thumbelina, is this really the best your god could do? When 'jesus' was crucified and rose, your god had everything he needed - blood sacrifice and victory over death. He could have called 'game over' then and there, but instead he lets things keep dragging on, innocent people getting tortured and killed every day in ways too gruesome to mention here - why? It makes no sense; more people born just to die and go to hell needlessly. But those are your headaches, not mine, since I can't accept the existence of your god - any truly good and truly powerful being who truly cared about us would intervene to spare the innocent and helpless.

[centauri]

Thumbelina: The thief on the cross who accepted Jesus and the dead children of believers who did not reach the age of accountability and that includes babies.

 

Centauri: Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?

 

Response: As humans we are made in God's image, God gave us deductive reasoning capabilities so in certain instances in the bible where certain instructions are not spelled out in black and white we can understand what is intended by the principles God has laid out. Eg. The bible does not say thou shalt not eat arsenic but based on certain principles one knows not to do it cuz that would be murder/suicide and that would be breaking God's 6th commandment.

 

Anyway, to answer your question ...

This is a quote: "Well in the Bible, it doesn’t specify a specific age because God looks on the heart; and let’s face it, children mature in their understanding of right and wrong at different ages.

God is not like the government who says well you’ve reached this birthday – now I’m going to judge you differently. He looks at their comprehension.

And the general age you find in the Bible will be somewhere around 12. That’s when Jesus went to the temple. That’s when Jews bar mitzvah their children at 13. And you notice that during puberty, they start to understand some of the spiritual ramifications of right and wrong, the eternal consequences.

I mean it’s not fair to take a seven year old and consign them to eternal death for sins that they just didn’t understand what the consequences were; or to treat them the same way as someone who’s more mature and does understand.

So generally speaking, when they’re old enough to be baptized, which is usually somewhere between nine and 16, depending on how fast they mature, that’s when they would be reaching that age of accountability."

You have no scriptural support from the New Testament that establishes an “age of accountability”.

Your subjective opinions don’t represent anything other than wishful thinking.

What you classify as fair or not fair is irrelevant when it comes to establishing your claim about an “age of accountability”.

According to the New Testament, the clay pot has no right to question how it was made.

You’ve simply made a claim based on wishful thinking.

That’s why I asked you this:

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?

 

You have provided no scriptural answer for this and your original claim is simply wishful thinking.

 

Thumbelina: It's describing a battle between Christ and Satan, they're showing the universe who is right, The Creator or the creatures and it shows a spiritual battle between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The entire bible expounds and enlarges on that theme.

 

Centauri:The entire Bible does not expound on that theme.

Cite one verse from the Old Testament where Satan disobeys an order from God.

 

Response: Have you looked at the bible? It's all about the battle between people striving to follow God and about people trying to oppose them; even if the person's enemy is themself.

And you and your LOADED questions! NOTHING EVER HAPPENS WITHOUT GOD PERMITTING IT TO HAPPEN. However, God always states what His ULTIMATE will is; it is up to the creatures to obey or not. We see God intervening to physically change the course of stubborn, self-willed creatures in the bible. Eg. Jesus was about to kill Moses when Moses disobeyed Him by not circumcising his son. He sent a fish to get Jonah and He showed stupid Balaam what His wishes were and several times God physically intervened to stop Balaam from a wrong course. Both Moses and Jonah eventually repented of their sins but stupid Balaam never did. Moses and Jonah inherited eternal life; Balaam inherited eternal death (i.e.oblivion).

Here, try this web site to search for those passages if you're actually interested : www.blueletterbible.com

You’re going to find that on this forum there are people that aren’t going to swallow the standard Christian talking points that you’ve put forth here.

If I ask “loaded” questions, it’s because I found many of your claims to be a load.

Yes, I have looked at the Bible many times.

That’s why I asked you to support your claim about Satan being at odds with the Creator.

From your answer I assume that you cannot find any verses in the Old Testament that identify Satan as ever disobeying God.

That pokes a large hole in your original claim about Satan.

[centauri]

Thumbelina: God had a contingency plan, He had to add some TEMPORARY laws in order to protect Jesus, The Messiah.

 

Centauri:Where did Moses say that God’s laws were temporary and were given to protect Jesus?

Chapter and verse please.

 

Response:

This is another quote:

"Are God's law and Moses' law the same?

 

Answer: No, they are not the same. Study the following notes and comparison carefully.

Note: Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross.

This is more Christian wishful thinking.

Where does the Old Testament say that the Law of God, as transmitted by Moses was temporary?

 

This law was added "till the seed should come," and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses' law pointed forward to Christ's sacrifice.

The sacrifice of Jesus wasn’t legal according to the law of God.

An expected king messiah was to lead people into great compliance with the law, a function that Jesus didn’t fulfill.

 

When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God's law) "stand fast for ever and ever." Psalms 111:8.

There is nothing in the Old Testament about any of the laws coming to an end when a king messiah arrived or died.

All of God’s commandments stand forever, it isn’t limited to only ten.

 

Psa 111:7-8

The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

 

That there are two laws is made crystal clear in Daniel 9:10, 11.

Dan 9:10-11 says that people disobeyed the law and suffered punishment for it.

 

Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

 

There is nothing in here about a set of laws ending.

 

Special Note: Please note that God's law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15. So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law (sinned--1 John 3:4). Because of sin (or breaking God's law), Moses' law was given (or "added"--Galatians 3:16, 19) till Christ should come and die. Two separate laws are involved: God's law and Moses' law.

 

MOSES' LAW

Called "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22). .

Called "law ... contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15).

Written by Moses in a book (2 Chronicles 35:12).

Placed in the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:26).

Ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15).

Added because of sin (Galatians 3:19).

Contrary to us, against us (Colossians 2:14).

Judges no one (Colossians 2:14-16).

Carnal (Hebrews 7:16).

Made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

 

GOD'S LAW

 

Called "the law of the Lord" (Isaiah 5:24).

Called "the royal law" (James 2:8).

Written by God on stone (Exodus 31:18; 32:16).

 

Placed inside the ark (Exodus 40:20).

Will stand forever (Luke 16:17).

Points out sin (Romans 7:7; 3:20).

Not grievous (1 John 5:3).

Judges all people (James 2:10-12).

Spiritual (Romans 7:14).

Perfect (Psalms 19:7).

Moses transmitted the law of God to the people.

Unless you’re claiming that Moses made up his own laws and passed them off as God’s, this apologetic is obfuscation and irrelevant to the point at hand.

Moses said this:

Deut 4:1-2,5-7(NIV)

Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.

Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."

 

Are you implying that Moses was a liar when he told people that God gave him laws and decrees to pass along to them?

Was Moses lying when he gave strict instructions not to add or subtract from these instructions?

 

Why are you accepting Paul's apostasy when he contradicts the Word of God that was in place long before Christianity came along and changed the rules?

 

I don’t recall anything in the Old Testament that says the law would only be valid until a messiah died.

If you think otherwise, cite the chapter and verses.

Also, please show me where the new covenant, as defined in Jer 31,says that laws were to be ended and replaced by faith in a human sacrifice.

[centauri]

Thumbelina:Oh, oh, you also know, because of a prophecy, that the entire world will be saved because a child born from your lineage would be the Messiah.

 

Centauri:Only males can pass kingships and titles.

Jesus had no biological father, never sat on the throne of David, and didn’t perform the tasks of a king messiah.

 

Response:

Dude, Jesus' kingdom was/is not of this nasty ol' world, He came in order to lay down His life for His friends. He came to lay down a spiritual kingdom. This world will be destroyed and He will create a new one (That's why those Muslims and Jews are wasting their time fighting). Jesus came and took back from the devil what Adam had lost, I mean sure He's still allowing Satan to run rampant down here and that's cuz He has to allow sin to come into full fruition so that un-fallen beings as well as us can see how utterly horrendous sin actually is. The lineage in the bible is kinda convoluted, the main point of it is to show a people who held on by FAITH to God. There's something called a kinsman redeemer mentioned in the bible, the kinsman redeemer could also preserve the family line of a deceased male relative by marrying his widow and providing an heir (Deut. 25:5-6). Those Israelites were sexist but God isn't; in God's eyes men and women are created equal it's just that in certain instances they may have different roles.

None of this resolves the dilemma.

Jesus had no paternal biological link to any tribe.

Tribal identity is determined by males according to God’s word.

Women can’t pass on kingships.

Mary can’t pass on something she could never possess herself.

 

"... there are places where the genealogy of Joseph and Mary merge and they intersect, Mary and Joseph were related also. So it doesn’t really matter. Through either one of their genes, Jesus was the son of David."

 

Jesus was related biologically through Mary and adopted by Joseph but who knows maybe God took some of Joseph's sperm without Him knowing and did the miracle that way lol.

Jesus was not the son of David because he has no paternal biological link to David.

Saying that this stipulation doesn’t matter is disingenuous.

It waves away the promise God made to David, reducing God to a charlatan.

Even if women could pass on kingships, Mary has no listed genealogy and cannot be established as being from the House of David.

Wishful thinking and posited miracles aren’t going to cut it on this forum.

Tapping the sperm of Joseph isn’t going to work either because Joseph was from a cursed line, one that could not produce a king.

 

Anyway, the point is Jesus had a good mother and a wonderful step-dad who were both Israelites:) Therefore mission was accomplished.

This is more of the same Christian wishful thinking and making things up to fit your preferences.

The stipulation for a valid king messiah was that he be the paternal biological offspring of David and Solomon.

Jesus does not have that qualification nor did he ever sit on the throne.

 

Thumbelina:God's truth is absolute but to finite beings it is progressive However, God is willing to share mysteries with us.

Centauri:What is the truth about eating pork?

Is it offensive to God? A yes or no will suffice here.

Yes

Then why do Christians ignore this absolute truth?

 

Thumbelina: If one reads Mark 4:11-12 one would see why close minded individuals definitely would not understand the bible .

People who have willing hearts will hear and understand the parables and to those who are not willing to understand it can really seem to be convoluted.

 

Centauri:Jesus deliberately obfuscated those particular messages, only revealing the secrets to his inner circle.

It has nothing to do with having a closed mind.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

His own disciples couldn’t understand it until he explained it to them in private.

 

Response:

lol. It didn't say they would get it immediately but EVENTUALLY; they had soft hearts, but the ones who had hard hearts were self deceived and they instigated Jesus' demise and to this day their descendants tend to close their eyes to the fact that the Messiah (anointed one) did come. I mean duh, why do they think He instructed their ancestors to sacrifice all those spotless animals; yup, it foreshadowed the sacrifice He was to make for mankind.

This is more wishful thinking and denial on your part.

You’re wishfully thinking that the inner circle would have understood without any personal instruction from Jesus.

The text says nothing of the sort.

Jesus gave them the secret meaning because they couldn’t understand any better than the crowd did.

The crowd wasn’t self-deceived, they were deliberately confused by Jesus.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

The text says nothing about the crowd wanting to instigate the demise of Jesus.

They were a large crowd that came to listen to Jesus and this was used by the New Testament writers as an opportunity to ape the mission of Isaiah and manufacture a fulfillment.

[centauri]

Thumbelina, on 23 March 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

 

Centauri: Congratulations, you’ve just defined Paul as the Devil.

Predestination voids free will.

Eph 1:4-5,11 shows that at least some people are predestined to their belief and worship.

God also manipulates human behavior if it suits his purposes.

You’ve also misused the word “free”.

The choice to worship God isn’t free, it’s an ultimatum.

 

Response:

Hey buddy, God had/has a preference, it was/is His will for all His intelligent creatures to choose to be with Him for eternity but that just isn't a reality. You are somewhat correct when you wrote this :"The choice to worship God ..., it’s an ultimatum."

Either one chooses the free gift of salvation or they choose the 2nd death i.e. to go back to nothingness.

According to scripture, your original claim about free will was a lie and this response has done nothing to rectify it.

You then compound the lie by calling an ultimatum a “free gift”.

Free gifts require nothing in return.

The gift of salvation by the Christian God requires several affirmative actions in return.

A gift isn’t free if it requires a specific response in return.

 

Thumbelina: God cannot and would not predetermine the free, spiritual acts of man. If those acts are predetermined, they are not free.

 

Centauri:The Bible says otherwise:

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

What does the word predestine mean?

Whose purpose drives the events?

According to whose will are these things done?

 

Response:

Oy vey! The use of the word predestined just means God already knows who would accept Him and it just so happens that decision pleases Him. God is allowing this great controversy between Him and Satan play out in order for finite beings to comprehend why God HAS TO HAVE HIS COMMANDMENTS; He's allowing creatures to experiment with lawlessness if they so choose and from the looks of this planet God is 100% correct; duh! of course He's correct cuz He's Omniscient.

Is it delusion or dishonesty that guides your responses?

Predestine means to determine in advance, to foreordain, to decree.

It is not simply having foreknowledge of an event.

God sets it in place, it’s his idea, his purpose, and is determined and made manifest by his actions.

The scripture even says that God does this by his will.

I snipped the remainder of your sermonizing because it does nothing to validate your lie about what the word predestine means.

 

Thumbelina: God made everything good. It was creaturely self-corruption or their misuse of their free will that caused all the mess.

 

Centauri:Your “free will” dogma is a fairy tale if the Bible is to be taken seriously.

If God created everything perfect and good, then a created being cannot sin.

As soon as it sins, it shows that it wasn’t made perfect.

 

Response:

It's precisely because God allowed free will why sin was able to come about. Stupid devil allowed his feelings of covetousness and pride to take over and now look at the mess in this planet because of it!

You continue to promote the myth about free will and misuse the word “free”.

The scripture shows that it’s a myth.

All you’ve done is claim that the scripture doesn’t mean what it says.

Wishful thinking isn’t reality Thumbelina.

If it were reality, all fishermen would have to do for a living is stay at home and cut out pictures of big fish.

 

Thumbelina: Pharaoh hardened his own dang heart!

 

Centauri:That’s not what the text says.

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

Response:

By God's constantly upping the ante on Pharaoh's punishments it caused Pharaoh to harden his heart -- just like the devil -- Pharaoh did not humble himself before the Omnipotent One. He was a virtual atheist. If He had just left the Israelites go, much of those plagues and the resulting demise of his army could have been avoided but that's how sin is; it makes one ridiculously irrational. AGAIN, God just knew that that nincompoop of a Pharaoh would not acquiesce until some major calamity occurred and even then Pharaoh used his free will to NOT to worship the creator God.

Just as you tried to redefine the word “predestine”, you now define the affirmative phrase “I will harden his heart” to mean that God doesn’t interfere with Pharaoh’s “free will”, something that you have in no way established as existing in the first place.

The point of manipulating Pharaoh was to ensure that he did not let the people go, thus bringing glory to God for performing great miracles.

Exodus 4 is the first time the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is discussed.

God is the instigator of this hardening.

 

It’s God's idea and Pharaoh is the vehicle that’s used to manifest glory for God.

 

Exo 14:4,17

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

 

You simply rewrite any scripture that gets in the way of your wishful thinking and free will mythology.

You turn this:

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

Into this:

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will up the penalty every time he hardens his own heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

Rewrite this one too, so people will clearly understand that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.