To All Of God's Critics

[Astreja]

Oh pleaaaaase, god of the gaps is just atheistic propaganda nonsense.

Then produce your god, in person, or STFU.

 

We ain't animals!

All of modern biology disagrees with you. You and I are both apes. Deal with it.

 

Jesus WILL return to stop the mess.

Not going to happen, Thumbelina. If Jesus was a real person who walked the earth, and not just a figment of Paul's imagination, then he is nearly 2,000 years dead. The flesh has rotted completely away in the common grave where the Romans would have dumped his decaying corpse (thoroughly picked-over by carrion birds), and the shards of broken bones that remained would probably have been crushed beyond recognition by the bulldozers and steam shovels used to build modern Jerusalem.

 

The nerve of you to JUDGE God!

If your sick little mythology is true, every man, woman and child on this planet has the right to judge your god. It has something to do with, um, magic trees and a Talking Snake™...

 

I tell ya sin proliferates and contaminates and a Christian's only safety is to abide in Christ.

You're not safe, Thumbelina. Your faith will automatically terminate at the moment of your death.

 

No human ever suffered or will ever suffer the agony that Jesus suffered...

Absolutely wrong. How dare you insult the millions of people on this planet who have suffered over the centuries! I, personally, have known several people who have succumbed to cancer. Anyone in any oncology ward on this planet has suffered more than your imaginary friend.

 

I reiterate: How dare you! You disgust Me.

 

...he took our place so we won't have to die eternally if we don't want to.

No one dies in My place.

 

The reason why atheists are hanging on to the fact that everything started from nothing is because as someone said, if there is no God then everything is permissible.

Uh, you do know that the 'everything is permissible' quote is from Brothers Karamazov... A work of fiction?

 

Of course you don't. You're too busy sucking at the teat of your unconscionable delusion.

 

That's why one needs the Holy Spirit to help them. If a person's heart is closed then God can't help them.

I guess omnipotence isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

(By the way, how *does* the mythical Holy Spook help without violating the 'free will' that your mythical god decided not to violate?)

 

Seriously, Thumbelina, thank you from the bottom of My heart rational mind for your screeds. You're doing a fine job of making Christianity look like the complete and utter nonsense it is.

[Dagan]

No human ever suffered or will ever suffer the agony that Jesus suffered

 

Jesus got a nice sip of vinegar mixed with myrrh to dull his pain.

 

The millions of people in Rwanda and Congo who got hacked to death with machetes after being force-fed their own genitals didn't have that luxury.

 

By the way, where was Jesus on that one?

[StevoMuso]

No human ever suffered or will ever suffer the agony that Jesus suffered

Jesus got a nice sip of vinegar mixed with myrrh to dull his pain.

The millions of people in Rwanda and Congo who got hacked to death with machetes after being force-fed their own genitals didn't have that luxury.

By the way, where was Jesus on that one?

Brilliant. Someone somewhere on the forum said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins. LOL. And if He really was God He would have known about the miraculous resurrection coming up and not been so terrified at His impending death. And don't try that "He felt abandoned by God in the Garden of Gethsemane" argument for His "spiritual" suffering. Try and compare that to just ONE Jewish person who spent 3 years in Auschwitz shoveling his loved-ones into pits or furnaces, enduring unspeakable torture on a daily basis year in and year out, only to be executed and buried in a nameless grave. "Jesus suffered?" Bullshit.

 

The nerve of you to JUDGE God!

Er ... sorry ... how can we judge something that's not there. We are judging you, and telling you that your God is a fabrication. Saying we are judging God is as ridiculous as saying a kid is "judging Santa" because he just found out the guy in the red suite is actually Uncle Joe.

[Realist]

No human ever suffered or will ever suffer the agony that Jesus suffered

Jesus got a nice sip of vinegar mixed with myrrh to dull his pain.

The millions of people in Rwanda and Congo who got hacked to death with machetes after being force-fed their own genitals didn't have that luxury.

By the way, where was Jesus on that one?

Brilliant. Someone somewhere on the forum said Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins. LOL. And if He really was God He would have known about the miraculous resurrection coming up and not been so terrified at His impending death. And don't try that "He felt abandoned by God in the Garden of Gethsemane" argument for His "spiritual" suffering. Try and compare that to just ONE Jewish person who spent 3 years in Auschwitz shoveling his loved-ones into pits or furnaces, enduring unspeakable torture on a daily basis year in and year out, only to be executed and buried in a nameless grave. "Jesus suffered?" Bullshit.

 

The nerve of you to JUDGE God!

Er ... sorry ... how can we judge something that's not there. We are judging you, and telling you that your God is a fabrication. Saying we are judging God is as ridiculous as saying a kid is "judging Santa" because he just found out the guy in the red suite is actually Uncle Joe.

 

Yes ... what an absolute load of crap!!! Jesus had a sleep for 3 days .... god knowing full well he was raising him from the dead after this time!!! Tell me what sort of a sacrifice that was?? Countless parents on this planet have sacrificed WAY more sending their sons (or son) to wars on near a daily basis .... many never to return again! They lose their offspring for eternity!!!Not a pitiful three f..king days!! Get a life Thumbelina! Though I guess with your user name you obviously like fairy tales!!

[StevoMuso]

Get a life Thumbelina! Though I guess with your user name you obviously like fairy tales!!

Oooh ouch! I feel your pain Thumbelina. But then this IS the Lion's Den and we ARE the lions. I really WISH lions could look at at tasty Christian morsel dangled in front of our noses and give it a nice friendly pat on the shoulder. I also WISH your fairytale were true and we could all skip along, lambs and lions together, believing all the crap like one happy family - but it ain't gonna happen.

 

Give us the "Jesus suffered" morsel and ... CHOMP ... feeding time.

[Franko47]

No human ever suffered or will ever suffer the agony that Jesus suffered

 

Jesus got a nice sip of vinegar mixed with myrrh to dull his pain.

 

The millions of people in Rwanda and Congo who got hacked to death with machetes after being force-fed their own genitals didn't have that luxury.

 

By the way, where was Jesus on that one?

 

 

 

Oh, that's a classic. Pasting that one into my notepad. Over Easter I plan to hit a couple of Christofundies I know with that one.

[Mriana]

Response:

Thumbelina: As I said earlier, those Israelites were behaving LIKE THE EGYPTIANS

 

Acting like the Egyptians? And the Bile isn't racist? Also, a lot of the Bile came FROM THE EGYPTIANS. It IS Egyptian mythology written to Hebrew culture. It is the SAME thing! The SAME motifs! However, it seems so many Xians appreciate discrimination and racism to much that they like to accuse people of behaving like other groups. Thing is, the Is(is)-Ra-El-ites lived amongst the Egyptians for a very long time. Guess people are not to "Do as the Romans do?" They were to live apart from them, even though they lived among them and within their culture?

 

Nothing wrong with remembering traditions, language, and alike, but separation is just too much, but apparently that is what the Bile recommends.

[Michael]

Dear Thumbelina,

 

I am sorry to say, that you actually sound like a "typical religionist". I am not your enemy, I am just having a different opinion than you and: Reality is on my side . You are not a sinner, cause there is nothing like sin. I do not like when people humiliate themselves with this crap. I am convinced, that every human being is precious and that we should treat each other with respect. The xian concept is: "We are all evil and without god we deserve loneliness and never ending torture". Since I am an ex-xian I can treat myself and others with respect and real love and I do not have to ask "What would Jesus do", because I am not evil, I can make good and acceptable decisions. Or was "I am just a sinner" just an ironic phrase? In the end you are saying "I am only human. I make mistakes, I have good days, I have bad days." That is an excuse I can understand. Sure it is not acceptable for god. He needs blood to forgive. Not me.

 

And yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

But I am still curious. Do you remember my questions? Why are you here? To preach to the "lost"? Is this a service for your god? Do you want to test your faith? Do you think that "the truth will set them free"?

 

So enjoy the easter holidays and greetings from Germany.

[bdp]

Dear Thumbelina,

 

I am sorry to say, that you actually sound like a "typical religionist". I am not your enemy, I am just having a different opinion than you and: Reality is on my side . You are not a sinner, cause there is nothing like sin. I do not like when people humiliate themselves with this crap. I am convinced, that every human being is precious and that we should treat each other with respect. The xian concept is: "We are all evil and without god we deserve loneliness and never ending torture". Since I am an ex-xian I can treat myself and others with respect and real love and I do not have to ask "What would Jesus do", because I am not evil, I can make good and acceptable decisions. Or was "I am just a sinner" just an ironic phrase? In the end you are saying "I am only human. I make mistakes, I have good days, I have bad days." That is an excuse I can understand. Sure it is not acceptable for god. He needs blood to forgive. Not me.

 

And yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

But I am still curious. Do you remember my questions? Why are you here? To preach to the "lost"? Is this a service for your god? Do you want to test your faith? Do you think that "the truth will set them free"?

 

So enjoy the easter holidays and greetings from Germany.

 

I'm going back to 'Thumbelina is a spoof.' Maybe not by anyone here - a 'regular' - but definitely a spoof.

[Michael]

 

I'm going back to 'Thumbelina is a spoof.' Maybe not by anyone here - a 'regular' - but definitely a spoof.

 

Do you think this, because she sounds like a stubborn believer or because of the radical way to advocate the bloody deeds of the bible god? What really sucks is her writing style and the ignorance. But the writing style might depend on her age and the ignorance is typical born-again-xian. I am glad that I do not have to discuss her stuff in lengthy posts. That would be way to much effort. But my question still is: Why is she here? It does not make any sense for a young convinced xian to post in this forum. The only reason could be the idea to save lost souls. Or doubts regarding her faith? I have no idea. But a spoof? Why this effort?

[ContraBardus]

I'm pretty sure she's the real deal, her arguments and reasoning are consistent with that. Doesn't seem like parody to me.

 

This doesn't seem like a case of Poe's Law to be honest.

 

However, I also feel I should point out that you'd be surprised at the amount of time and effort some people will put into trolling.

[Dagan]

I think she's either in or recently released from a mental institution.

 

Or else she's 14. Or a crazy balding celibate 46-year-old man.

[bdp]

 

I'm going back to 'Thumbelina is a spoof.' Maybe not by anyone here - a 'regular' - but definitely a spoof.

 

Do you think this, because she sounds like a stubborn believer or because of the radical way to advocate the bloody deeds of the bible god? What really sucks is her writing style and the ignorance. But the writing style might depend on her age and the ignorance is typical born-again-xian. I am glad that I do not have to discuss her stuff in lengthy posts. That would be way to much effort. But my question still is: Why is she here? It does not make any sense for a young convinced xian to post in this forum. The only reason could be the idea to save lost souls. Or doubts regarding her faith? I have no idea. But a spoof? Why this effort?

 

Honestly, the other options are just too depressing, therefore I choose to believe it's a spoof.

[OnceConvinced]

 

Honestly, the other options are just too depressing, therefore I choose to believe it's a spoof.

You choose to believe? Or is is an inescapable conclusion you have come to?

[Thumbelina]

 

Mr. Michael Sir, you do not like the use of pejorative English? Skeptics generally do not care. Besides, no matter what a believer tells a skeptic their usual mantra is "We are smarter than you!" I suppose since God is in the ditch with skeptics SOME will need to find something to make themselves FEEL good about (it is human nature). I prefer the biblical point of view that puts all humans as equal; that none is better than the other. There would be no discrimination or oppressions or violence etc. if that rule was to be followed. I tend to tease people a lot and I suppose nice skeptics are as good as any to tease, so I hope we won't be fighting? It's not as if I gave you a vasectomy like I gave to OnceConvinced; he's a tough fellow! lol.

 

To answer some of your questions and Purple's too, I don't know how the heck I ended up on this web site, I've been tired and sleepy most of the times I've been on here. I would like to see others know the truth as I believe it to be and I do not need to earn salvation for my Jesus already justified me. I get a funny feeling in my heart for atheists/agnostics etc. and I suppose it is love, though it really does not negate the fact that atheists need a virtual swift kick in the pants! However, God should be the one to do the kicking.

 

I hope you're fine and now I must bid you adieu for I am going to bother Mr. Centauri and OnceConvinced. There are others I would like to gently tease but I just can't get to them.

[Thumbelina]

Re: Posts # 198-201

@ Centauri

Dude, I hope you didn't think I was fighting with you? I'm more into friendly sparring; the sheath on my sword stays on. If you feel any cutting, blame God and not me; He likes us to go to Him for answers.

.......

 

Centauri: "Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?"

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, I would ask you to CAREFULLY read what I write. I said in my church the parents live or are supposed to live a consecrated life and that WE BELIEVE that it would cover their children's eternal life should they die before they reach the age of accountability.The bible DOES NOT TEACH that children become tainted with sin from Adam. It teaches that humans face the consequence of Adam's sin which is death, the first death i.e. Humans are naturally selfish and are born with sinful tendencies but God winks in times of ignorance and young children and babies don't know what the heck they're doing. My God is a just God.That original sin doctrine is a fallacy.

 

 

Centauri: You’re going to find that on this forum there are people that aren’t going to swallow the standard Christian talking points that you’ve put forth here.

If I ask “loaded” questions, it’s because I found many of your claims to be a load.

Yes, I have looked at the Bible many times.

That’s why I asked you to support your claim about Satan being at odds with the Creator.

From your answer I assume that you cannot find any verses in the Old Testament that identify Satan as ever disobeying God.

That pokes a large hole in your original claim about Satan.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, God's word is not an empty dictate to which mere humans can add meaning and content. Sure, humans wrote it but it is inspired and I did realize where you were headed with your loaded questions. The bible has to be taken http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:16-17&version=KJV'>as a whole and NOT in parts. Genesis to Revelation tells the WHOLE story and God said that that devil was acting up in heaven and then he got kicked down here. I addressed this topic in one of my other posts on this ws, maybe in another thread, I don't remember.

 

The bible says that IT needs to be studied and NOT read only.I could read a book on quantum physics but that DOES NOT mean I understand it; I'll have to study it and I'll have to be taught by an expert in it. Same with the bible, one must be teachable and one MUST allow the Holy Spirit to teach them.

 

..............................................

 

Centauri: Moses transmitted the law of God to the people.

Unless you’re claiming that Moses made up his own laws and passed them off as God’s, this apologetic is obfuscation and irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:Mr. Centauri, I never said that the MORAL LAW, the 10 Commandments were done away with, I said the ceremonial laws were done away with; no more animal sacrifices were/are necessary, nor are those laws about people having to marry people they fornicated with etc. applicable today.

 

If you actually want to know about the doctrine on the 2 covenants I would be happy to give you a link to where it is discussed in detail.

 

 

............................................................

 

Centauri: Jesus was not the son of David because he has no paternal biological link to David.

Saying that this stipulation doesn’t matter is disingenuous.

It waves away the promise God made to David, reducing God to a charlatan.

Even if women could pass on kingships, Mary has no listed genealogy and cannot be established as being from the House of David.

Wishful thinking and posited miracles aren’t going to cut it on this forum.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: God does not discriminate.

God's kingdom is not of this sinful world!

 

Centauri: Tapping the sperm of Joseph isn’t going to work either because Joseph was from a cursed line, one that could not produce a king.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I said "What if?" Whatever it was it was a miracle and I believe it! Whatever, Jesus loves everybody!

 

 

 

Centauri:What is the truth about eating pork?

Is it offensive to God? A yes or no will suffice here.

Thumbelina: Yes

Centauri:Then why do Christians ignore this absolute truth?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Uh, I'm not responsible for other Christians, IF a member of my church were caught eating pork, shrimp, crabs etc. then my church would move their name from off its records. Don't get me wrong, they could still attend, it's just that they won't be able to hold any offices within the church until they repent.

 

 

..........................................................

 

Centauri: This is more wishful thinking and denial on your part.

You’re wishfully thinking that the inner circle would have understood without any personal instruction from Jesus.

The text says nothing of the sort.

Jesus gave them the secret meaning because they couldn’t understand any better than the crowd did.

The crowd wasn’t self-deceived, they were deliberately confused by Jesus.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

The text says nothing about the crowd wanting to instigate the demise of Jesus.

They were a large crowd that came to listen to Jesus and this was used by the New Testament writers as an opportunity to ape the mission of Isaiah and manufacture a fulfillment.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, you are thinking about earthly attributes and the bible is talking about discerning spiritual truths; it's referring to people who would ultimately gain eternal life; the point is they eventually got it. The verses were/are talking about open hearts. Those people that had/have closed hearts will ultimately end up in hell.

I wasn't only referring to that specific text when I said they instigated the demise of Jesus, I was referring to the whole plot based on what the bible teaches and what I believe Christianity teaches.

 

.........................................................

 

 

Thumbelina, on 23 March 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

 

Centauri: Congratulations, you’ve just defined Paul as the Devil.

Predestination voids free will.

Eph 1:4-5,11 shows that at least some people are predestined to their belief and worship.

God also manipulates human behavior if it suits his purposes.

You’ve also misused the word “free”.

The choice to worship God isn’t free, it’s an ultimatum.

 

 

Thumbelina: Hey buddy, God had/has a preference, it was/is His will for all His intelligent creatures to choose to be with Him for eternity but that just isn't a reality. You are somewhat correct when you wrote this :"The choice to worship God ..., it’s an ultimatum."

Either one chooses the free gift of salvation or they choose the 2nd death i.e. to go back to nothingness.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: www.biblos.com <---- This website might explain "predestined" to you better than I can but for some reason I am unable to put the direct link through.

 

Centauri: According to scripture, your original claim about free will was a lie and this response has done nothing to rectify it.

You then compound the lie by calling an ultimatum a “free gift”.

Free gifts require nothing in return.

The gift of salvation by the Christian God requires several affirmative actions in return.

A gift isn’t free if it requires a specific response in return.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Christianity teaches grace and that Jesus justified each person by sacrificing Himself for us.

Dick Innes sums up what Christians believe:

“Justice is when we get what we deserve.

Mercy is when we don’t get what we deserve.

But grace is when we get what we don’t deserve.”

 

Of course one has to accept the gift but it does not negate the fact that it is free and you don't have to earn it. A person believes and then comes to God just as they are; then when one spends time getting to know Him He sanctifies them and as long as they continue in that saving relationship with Jesus they will be saved (glorified).

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God made everything good. It was creaturely self-corruption or their misuse of their free will that caused all the mess.

 

Centauri:

Wishful thinking isn’t reality Thumbelina.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Hey since you said it's wishful thinking, if you were to believe it, would it make sense to you? Regarding you skeptics saying everything started from nothing : Wishful thinking isn’t reality Centauri.

 

 

Thumbelina: Pharaoh hardened his own dang heart!

 

Centauri:That’s not what the text says.

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. ...

 

 

Just as you tried to redefine the word “predestine”, you now define the affirmative phrase “I will harden his heart” to mean that God doesn’t interfere with Pharaoh’s “free will”, something that you have in no way established as existing in the first place.

The point of manipulating Pharaoh was to ensure that he did not let the people go, thus bringing glory to God for performing great miracles.

Exodus 4 is the first time the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is discussed.

God is the instigator of this hardening.

 

Centauri: It’s God's idea and Pharaoh is the vehicle that’s used to manifest glory for God.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: It was to manifest God's glory or to show God's character but Pharaoh had a choice, to accept to live eternally with his maker or not and he chose not to.

 

Heh heh, another theme that goes through the bible is that although Satan means most/all instances for bad, God can bring good out of them.

God is allowing unfallen beings and us to compare His ways against Satan's ways or humanity's ways. Maybe you should compare the verses in the margin of your bible so you can get the big picture or even look at the Hebrew words used for "harden" when it comes to Pharaoh and God hardening his heart. In a lot of instances in the bible, God uses prophetic language (hence the "I will") because HE KNOWS THE FUTURE.

 

 

 

 

 

Centauri:Rewrite this one too, so people will clearly understand that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

www.biblos.com <--- Here, this ws has some good commentaries if you WANT to read it.

[Thumbelina]

Re: Posts # 224,225,226

@ OnceConvinced

 

OnceConvinced: But I wouldn't treat them like scum like the God of the bible does. I'd value my creations and not just wipe out entire nations because they do stuff I don't like]

 

Thumbelina: So,if Hitler were around today and you know what Hitler did to all those people, you would just give him a slap on the wrist, ruffle his hair and just say " Naughty, naughty Hitler don't do that again OK." and then let him go? If you did that do you think Hitler would pay any attention to you; or what do you think others who saw Hitler get away with it would do?!

We would have bloody anarchy that's what! Survival of the fittest! .

.......

 

 

OnceConvinced: Ok, so you’re comparing your God to Hitler. Apt comparison.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Humph! you're naughty too, you know full well what I meant. I meant that God cannot allow His creations to do whatever they choose. Justice has to be meted out otherwise the entire universe would end up like this planet.

 

OnceConvinced: But I see you God as a lot worse than Hitler. Hitler deserves to suffer for what he did. But your God treats people far worse than Hitler ever did. So what punishment should God get? One things for certain, he definitely doesn’t deserve worship. Would you worship Hitler?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: God is the absolute arbiter of right and wrong; He is omniscient, He is loving and He is also just. One CANNOT have love without justice (in a universe where sin has occurred i.e.)

Created beings are not supposed to take life. Now, you seem to want to accuse God of breaking commandment # 6. The 6th commandment says Thou shalt NOT murder (Hebrew = ratsach) or to kill unlawfully and with wicked intent. Jesus quoted it in this way in Matthew 19:18: "You shall not murder." God never murders. (Revelation 22:15 says that murderers will be cast into the lake of fire!).

 

Mr. OnceConvinced, we both know that since sin eventuated there have been murders and of course civil authorities etc. did and will have to execute individuals such as Hitler or even someone who maybe murdered one or two people.

Two things are required for a murder to occur and they are meditation and malice. God is NEVER malicious and He just knows the future but He allows bad things to happen for a greater good.

God LOVES sinners but He hates sin! If a free will, created being chooses to cling to their sins HE has to remove them to ensure the eternal safety and happiness of His other creatures.

Also, I did mention already that a Holy God cannot abide with sin. He has to veil Himself because sin exists. If He manifests Himself fully then hell will occur before it's supposed to and people who are going to be saved would not have had a chance to repent yet. So God in His mercy is trying to save as many people as He can and He is also keeping His promise to Abraham when HE said that Abraham would be a father to many nations.

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: BTW the average Joe Bloggs who sins can’t be compared to Hitler. Let’s look at a more realistic scenario. Your God would have someone brutally slaughtered for telling lies. So what if your child told a lie. Would you have them slaughtered? Would you praise any parent for treating their child in such a horrible manner? Yet you would praise God for doing a similar act.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Looky here OnceConvinced! you seem to want to categorize sin but to a Holy God sin is sin and it is nasty! I keep telling you that sin proliferates and it contaminates; God knew this but some silly created beings did not understand it.

 

God's eternity was interrupted by a detour when Lucifer rejected God's authority and chose to follow his own opinions, hence breaking the 1st commandment (us humans tend to break this one consistently; God ALONE is omniscient). Lucifer's/Satan's rebellion marked the beginning of the detour. You see, sin isn't just bad behavior such as Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden or even just doing bad things; those are just outward evidences of sin. Sin is choosing to do what we please without considering God's will. Eve sinned before she even ate the forbidden fruit.

 

God chose to create beings that are not equal and that are less powerful than Him, (could you imagine if God had made Satan even more powerful, look at the condition of this planet because Satan is the" prince of this world") therefore, God had to come up with a way to show His creatures what sin does. God had to test Adam and Eve. When Eve partook of the forbidden fruit she did not know that she had sinned prior to taking the fruit. She had already broken Commandments 1,2,3 and 10; when she took the fruit she then broke Commandments 8,7 (i.e. she committed spiritual adultery), 6 (she was killing herself because "the wages of sin is DEATH") & 3, then she proceeded to break commandments 9 & 5. With all those commandment breaking it sure would have been hard for them to keep the 4th one. You see, when we break even one command it sets about a chain of events that take us on a downward spiral which causes unhappiness to EVERYONE, including God Sin can be compared to the person who tries drugs, they feel good when they do it initially but it eventually takes them to the gutter.

 

God designed that sin would leave footprints. God designed the test in the garden so that Eve could SEE the evidence of her sin, i.e. the teethmarks in the fruit! Eve thought that she was doing something good but she was still sinning, Prov.14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Living outside the context of God's will, makes whatever we do,

'>rebellion!

God says if you break even one commandment you are guilty of breaking all of

them.

He says that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

 

........................................

 

 

Thumbelina:

Those nations that were judged in the OT times were doing some horrific things such as child sacrifice; nations like the Canaanites engaged in human sacrifice, even offering their children to devil gods. (See Deuteronomy 12:31).

If left unrestrained, those nations would have plagued the world with such depravity so therefore they simply were not redeemable. It broke God's heart but he had to allow it.

 

OnceConvinced: Oh yeah, and the babies and children, they were guilty by association will they? Oh and those kids that God had mauled to death by a bear. They were conducting acts of human sacrifice too, were they? And the women who had to marry their rapists? They did too? What about the guy who picked up sticks during the Sabbath? I suppose he was conducting human sacrifices on the side? Those Sodomites. They weren’t just having gay sex, they were also conducting human sacrifices. Get real, Thumbelina! Sheesh, if God was to wipe out anyone for trying to conduct human sacrifices, he should have been enraged by Abraham attempting to sacrifice his son. And what sort of example is it to send his own son as a human sacrifice.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: God is the judge of all of creation, he's the supreme potentate and as I said in a previous post we do not know if those young ones will make it to heaven when Jesus returns.Those who were mauled were not young innocent children, they had gotten to the age of accountability and I did say when God had those nations wiped out is because their probation's had ended.

Aw c'mon OnceConvinced, how would you like it if you go to a town to conduct your business and all the men came upon the place where you were staying, surround it and wanted to "know" you in a violent way? Those Sodomites were vile, depraved, rebellious, selfish beasts. I don't think you read the account for yourself. You are either repeating what you heard preachers say or the darn skeptics.Some preachers tend to use the account of Sodom and Gomorrah to berate gays but that wasn't the main reason God judged them; it was because they had committed the unpardonable sin, they were utterly selfish and God could not reason with them.

 

You're picking out solitary incidents but you do realize that righteous people suffer too you know? Jesus suffered tremendously! and those Christians during the dark ages died because they loved God and wanted to obey His commandments. I know of Christians in modern times who were persecuted by atheists for they called the Christian's belief to be like opium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: We also need to remember that God is omniscient and can see the future;

 

OnceConvinced: And this is a point I have been trying to make to you all along. God is omniscient, but yet put no contingencies in place to deal with any of the problems that he knew were coming. But he did nothing. What a complacent and apathetic God you worship. Instead of preventing all the shit before it happens, he waits until it happens then takes action. That’s pretty slack. I would not deem such a God worthy of worship.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The contingencies were/are that God designed His intelligent creatures with a conscience. There is no explanation for the origin of sin for sin is just stupid. Lucifer became jealous of God and he became Satan. Satan had/has the love of power without the power of love.

 

......

 

OnceConvinced: If I made a mistake with one, I'd just make an adjustment of some kind and get rid of the flaw, after all that's what a good creator would do.

 

Thumbelina: If you made a mistake then you won't be much of a God.

OnceConvinced: Indeed not. Your God is not much of a God is he?

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: He is PERFECT. He made no mistakes. Look, if a man and his wife has some children and they raise those children to the best of their ability. They were loving to the children and they gave them freedom; they were not overbearing parents and one of there children eventually became a drug addict and a drunk, would you look at the drunk and say "Sheesh, who gave birth to that?!" No, you would think that that person chose to become that won't you?

 

 

Thumbelina: The bible says God created everything good and very good.

 

OnceConvinced: But he didn’t, that’s the point. He created the world and put no contingencies in place to prevent sin from happening. A real God who is omniscient would have allowed for such eventualities. Your God made serious mistakes by not allowing for the mess that was about to eventuate. Now he has to deal with the mess he has allowed to happen. However his method is to wipe out everything and generally treat his creations like scum. A true God would have set systems in place similar to the ones I suggested, but he didn’t. He allowed it all to go to shit. Anyway, weren’t you saying earlier that God would be making adjustments? If he had made it good, none of it would need adjustments would it?

 

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Hey man, God created "evil" meaning calamity, He created darkness too as a contrast!

His method to redeem humans was through pain but He suffers with us.

..............

 

Thumbelina: Your Idea of free will: You create a spectacular being and that being looks at himself in the mirror and says "Daaaamn, I'm gorgeous!" You the creator are the MOST spectacular because duh, you're self-existent. So you're perfect and you made a perfect and yet finite sentient being (it can be destroyed because it is not self-existent). As long as that being is following you everything is hunky dory. At the appointed time that that being starts feeling those negative emotions you would just take away the emotions? How is that freedom; or how is that love?

 

OnceConvinced: How is my suggestions taking away emotions? In no way am I suggesting any of that. Nothing I have suggested means taking away any emotions. Please explain how instilling pain, guilt or fear into your creation is removing emotions? Is it considered taking away emotions when it comes to pain and fear when it comes to physical health? Can you not see I am suggesting exactly the same sort of thing? It’s nothing different to what’s already incorporated into human beings already.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: We're talking here about the juncture where one of your creations is starting to get sinful thoughts; you know where it would lead but they don't understand. You explain it to them, maybe you even give them a vision of what could happen but they don't believe you. They want to do what is right in their own eyes! If you give them a dose of pain at this point they still won't trust you and you would just be confirming their "reasoning" that you are a tyrant. Hey, didn't you read my analogy with Obama and Biden?

 

 

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

 

OnceConvinced: I'd put in mechanisms to prevent this, ie pain, fear. I would have them become physically sick (like on the movie Clockwork Orange) to prevent them. Doing evil would be a disgusting and appalling thing to them all, just as many things already are to 99.9% of humans, eg cannibalism, beastiality, eating faeces, sadomasachism. Seeing as things like fear and pain are not violations of freewill (because all humans have these mechanisms in them to prevent from physically harming themselves), then why not have such mechanisms in place to protect us from doing evil to others? In some ways these mechanisms are already there. I for instance could never deliberately harm another person because it would cause me too much guilt. In fact I can imagine the guilt I'd feel even before doing it. It would be horrible for me. So I'd make all humans have that same trait, but perhaps, make it more intense.

 

Thumbelina: Yeah but each time your creations get a REPRIEVE or respite (just like Pharaoh; hence the reason why this story was recorded), they think they're out of the woods and they go back to the same bad behavior.

 

OnceConvinced: But they won’t, that’s just it, unless they are sadomasochists. If you suffered pain every time you committed a sin, would you continue to sin? I doubt it. It would act as a deterrent.

.......................

 

Response:

Thumbelina: We see humans doing it all the time! Like the 1 legged dude I told you about, each time he steals or molests etc. he gets beat up and the minute he feels better he goes back to doing dirty. We see that type of behavior again and again amongst humans and bible prophecy says it will end like that also, when God resurrects the wicked dead for their judgment they WILL acknowledge that He (God) was just in banishing them. They will kneel and confess but they would still CONvince themselves that since their numbers are so large they can overthrow the Holy City and that's when God will totally unveil Himself and they will combust but they won't flame on like Johnny; they each will burn according to their WORKS but eventually they will be reduced to ashes.

 

....................................

 

Thumbelina: if He had killed the devil immediately His other creatures would have most likely served Him out of fear and not love.

 

OnceConvinced: Says who? That's a huge assumption. For me it would show a loving and just God, not one to be feared. Besides, most Christians are already serving him out of fear, rather than love with the threat of Hell. How is wiping out Satan any different from the threat of Hell in this respect? (at least wiping out Satan would show love ot his creations) A loving parent would remove the root of evil, rather than allow their child to be influenced by it.

 

Are you a parent? If you are you will understand this. A loving parent wishes to protect their child from evil. God cannot be considered a loving parent if he allows his creations to suffer due to the evil he allows to run rampant. And let’s also realise that he created that evil to begin with, knowing what he was unleashing (being omniscient). That does not show a loving God, but a malevolent God. Why would you worship such a being? Why would you love such a being?

 

I would more likely praise a God and love a God who took away the evil that was threatening me, than let it continue to fester, wouldn’t you? I would respect a God who got rid of Satan from the word go. I would have faith in such a God. Think about a hardened criminal Thumb, who goes through our court systems. Doesn't it actually increase your faith and trust in a court if it convicts the felon? Doesn't it make you respect it? As opposed to a court that would allow a felon to walk free? Wouldn't you then fear the court? Wouldn't you be distrustful of it? Would you be praising its decision to let the felon walk free?

 

A God who would allow Satan to run rampant is one to be feared. It shows one who is probably worse than Satan himself.

 

Another thing here is that you contradict yourself. In a previous post you are praising God for wiping out evil people on the planet. You honor him for not allowing evil to run rampant. Now you are honoring God for allowing evil to run rampant in the form of Satan. Where is the consistency in your logic? You are trying so hard to justify every thing that you don't realise that one justification contradicts another. Is not wiping out people for doing evil encouraging humans to worship him out of fear not love? Why the double standards, Thumb? Why is it ok for God to let Satan do whatever the hell he wants without stepping in and taking action, but when it comes to humans then suddenly he steps in to brutally wipe out the perpetrators?

 

*****

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: You have 4 siblings that are older than you and the first time one of them misbehaves you see your father pull out a gun and shoot him so now he's dead; would you now obey your dad because you love him completely and because you find his rules to be good ones or would you obey him because you don't want to be next?

 

If I had a child that's totally diabolical and only wants to lie to and on his siblings, oppress and kill them, regrettably, I will have to take them out; although I love them, I'll have to.God can let evil run rampant because He is the resurrection and the life, one word from Him and the dead can be resurrected. The bible says that suffering on this planet is not worthy to be compared to eternity. For the redeemed, suffering would have been a paltry thing.

 

God did take away the evil that is threatening humans and that evil is eternal death; whomever is WILLING to be saved can be saved. Whomever is not willing will eventually go back into nothingness.

I did and do praise God when He got/gets me out of deep mess This world and our mortal life here are so temporary. God promises to be with His children during tough times.

 

Satan tends to manifest himself through evil people so in effect, God did kind of slow him down; I'm referring to the nations that were destroyed.You see for every person that accepts salvation, Satan would have to burn for them. If a person refuses salvation then they will burn for their own sins and that would be one person less he has to burn for. Believe it or not God still has that devil on a leash but God has to let Satan DEMONstrate how he would have run the universe if given a chance and boy oh boy that devil is sure failing isn't he?

 

One time I asked God: "God, since Satan is a big flaccid, then why don't you take away the breath of life from all humans; just let all of us drop dead and then tell Satan to resurrect us?" lol. He then impressed me that humans need to go through a refining process and that might solve the problem with showing Satan up but He wants humans to live forever with Him and it's through trials and tribulations that will help us to replicate His selfless character. He's allowing His disciples to learn to become disgusted by the root of sin.

We need to have a radical dependence on God in order to live with Him but we need to willingly submit to Him.

 

.............................................................

 

 

Thumelina: but there have been instances of those and God allowed them in order for His creatures to see how far sin can really take someone.

 

OnceConvinced: How is that loving or merciful? We’d be in trouble as a human race, if parents started to act like this. Allow their kids to do horrible things just so the kid can see how far they’d go. That would be considered appalling parenting. Such a person would not deserve to be a parent. Your God can hardly be considered worthy of worship.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Humans cannot resurrect people so they had better not act like that! lol. God is letting Satan have a go at being a leader but he did not let him get total dominion of this world.

...................

 

 

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

OnceConvinced: With my system in place nobody would be breaking the rules, because even the thought of doing evil would made them physically sick. But ok, there may be a few messed up individuals (although I'd make sure there would be no such things as mental illnesses) who may decide they love the pain, love the fear and love feeling physically sick). For them I would have some rehabilitation system in place. Being God I would easily be able to make an adjustment or two to prevent them from offending again. I'm sure that nobody would mind losing some freewill to avoid Hell. I know I'd gladly be God's puppet to avoid Hell

 

Thumbelina: I'm sorry OnceConvinced but as a god your creations would be only animals at the best, you know just creatures of instinct? or mere machines at the worst; preprogrammed to do what you tell them without understanding that you love them with all your heart and then they would in turn choose to freely reciprocate that love. Maybe you aren't a loving god after all? .

 

OnceConvinced: I’ve already shown you that we as humans have pain and fear when it comes to our physical wellbeing. Would you consider us animals because of that? All I am suggesting is to apply that pain and fear to our spiritual wellbeing. I have also given you an example of myself how I have overwhelming guilt at even the though of inflicting suffering on an other human being. I am certainly not a robot or an animal and my freewill isn’t being violated is it?

 

Preprogramming? If you are going to insist that fear and pain is this when it comes to sin, then it also must be considered that when it comes to our physical wellbeing. Do you feel your freewill is violated when you are afraid to touch a hot element? Would you feel your freewill was violated when you felt fear at the thought of climbing up a cliff without safety equipment? Is that considered preprogrammming to you? So what’s the difference if that same fear is applied when it comes to sin?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: As I said before this is all happening at the onslaught of the sin problem, when your creatures, namely fallen angels, are now beginning to break your rules.

 

You want to be the arbiter of right and wrong but God's standards are way higher than ours. All of us fall short of His standards that's why we have to hang on to Jesus' robe of righteousness.

You might say you don't hurt others but maybe what you construe to not be hurting someone, the person on the receiving end may say otherwise. Besides, what if you're thinking dirty but are just not acting out on it because of fear of reprisal, the sin will still be there but just not acted upon. Also, most humans say "Lord Lord" but don't obey Him, they deceive themselves into thinking they won't still end up in hell.

God is Holy and cannot put up with such nonsense for eternity. Sins begin in the heart/mind and that's enough for God's complete glory to destroy a creature.

 

Actually, the bible teaches a basic holistic view on how the human body works but the spiritual nature is the highest; that's why SILLY terrorists could blow themselves up, they're following the WRONG spirit, the devil has them duped! If someone makes up their mind to do something they would die trying to accomplish it. If as a God you have to continually move your creations like puppets then that won't be any fun; oh yeah they'd just be puppets! Imagine doing that for eternity?

 

You know OnceConvinced you're echoing the same sentiments as the devil, that devil had better watch out for you want to take his job.

 

 

...............

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: But if none of this is good enough for you, how about you ask God how he's going to solve these problems in Heaven? Then ask him why he didn't just employ those methods to begin with?

 

Thumbelina: After this planet's trial with lawlessness "Doing evil would be a disgusting and appalling thing to them all ..." ; them all, being all of creation including animals.

 

OnceConvinced: Why not just instil that disgust from the word go? What sort of God would allow billions upon billions of his creations to suffer in Hell just to prove a point? Certainly not a loving, just or merciful God. A malevolent God, sure, but certainly not one worthy of worship.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: The disgust was there but stubborn creatures ignored it; do you think Hitler had aspired to be the horrible murderer that he became? It's when beings IGNORE their consciences that the trouble starts. All who go to hell will choose to; God appeals to each human's heart. At least they got to live once!

[Thumbelina]

Re: Posts # 224,225,226

@ OnceConvinced

OnceConvinced: With regards to perspectives on God being loving merciful etc.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: I have to say ditto to you here but yours is with regard to your pessimistic attitude.

 

OnceConvinced: But you forget, I was a Christian for many many years and held that same perspective as you. It was removing those rose-colored sun glasses a few years ago that allowed me to open my mind and not have a mindset. My views now have evolved from that. I judge it by what it says, I am not tainted by any preconceived notions of God being loving, merciful or hateful and nasty.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Actually it's understanding the truths in the bible that affirmed my beliefs and you did not have the same perspectives as me maybe similar but not the same. As far as I could decipher you were in what the bible calls spiritual Babylon and that means that although the church members may have been sincere it is possible to be sincere and be sincerely WRONG. The church you were attending would not have understood the end time prophecies completely and I see that they do not teach keeping all 10 of the commandments.

 

.............

 

Thumb: When I was secular and I looked at the bible I did think to myself that some of God's actions seem to be quite contradictory ...

 

OnceConvinced: See, you could see that God was not all he was cracked up to be! So what did you do? You decided to take it all on faith. You decided in your mind that God just had to be loving, merciful, just and everything else, because you could not accept otherwise. All critical thought was shoved aside and now you reject anything that doesn’t line up with that mindset and attempt to find any silly justification you can that supports it. You had trouble understanding. So to hell with all critical thought. To hell with challenging what you were reading in the bible.

 

Thumb: .., I always give God the benefit of the doubt

 

OnceConvinced: Once again, you show that mindset. I will call a spade a spade.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: In Hebrews 11:1 it says "Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen. The Greek word Hypostasis which was translated as substance really means understanding; and in Greek need, faith,trust, belief, confidence its the same word. That bible is amazing and so not what you unbelievers think it says.

I am understanding more and more via the biblical text exactly how good God is but I have also had some experiential knowledge of Him and He is altogether lovely and wonderful and gentle. I must admit, I have only experienced His grace and mercy and NOT His wrath I did not feel like this! rofl and I hope I never do!

 

I have had experiences like those 2 disciples that were on the road to Emmaus had with Jesus in Luke 24:32; understanding the truth makes one's heart burn within them and no not like the Mormons say and it's not indigestion either

 

.......................

 

Thumb:I am curious/concerned though, did you KNOW HIM personally?

 

 

OnceConvinced: So I sincerely believed. All my life up until about 4-5 years ago, thus my name, “OnceConvinced”. I believed I had a relationship with him. But now I realise I was simply living in a delusion.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

No, no no! you're in a delusion now! Jesus is the only method of salvation and the devil wants you to doubt that!

 

.....

 

Thum: Mr. OnceConvinced, you've been doing the TYPICAL atheistic pastime of saturating your mind with info. from those ws that show supposed atrocities committed by god, huh?

 

OnceConvinced: I’m not an atheist.

Response:

Thumbelina:Whew! TG! Then what the heck are ya; an agnostic?

 

 

OnceConvinced: I saturate my mind with facts. You however prefer to saturate your mind with references from a book written by ignorant bronze aged tribesman. You also take any thing written by other Christians (eg references in the bible, studies from other Christians etc) I don’t need to go to other sources, I can see the atrocities committed by God in your own book. I don’t need to try to rationalise them away or justify them. I’m not trying to convince myself of anything. I come to my own conclusions based on what I read. I don’t need to be influenced by other sources.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Facts are incomplete without God. I was secular and did not bother with God for a while but belief is way better and true too. Items

"written by other Christians (eg references in the bible, studies from other Christians etc)" need to agree with the teachings of the bible otherwise they should be tossed. The bible is its own expositor, one needs to compare scripture with scripture in order to get the big picture on any given topic. Did you ask God for help when you were reading the bible; maybe you did not have a teachable heart?

...........

 

Thum: lol. You know Mr. OnceConvinced I have always praised God for not allowing me to be born during OT times or in a culture that reflected such inequality to women.

 

OnceConvinced: God created the laws back then, the same guy you worship now. Doesn’t it bother you that he created such laws? All those ways were supposedly God’s ways. If they weren’t and were the way of the guys at the time, what makes you so sure it’s not the same with the NT? Don’t you believe that God never changes? Also that scripture I showed you about women not preaching was a NT scripture. Why do you continue to ignore your God’s laws?

 

Response:

Thumbelina:I keep telling you, those laws were added temporarily because those Israelites were breaking the perfect 10 (i.e. the 10 commandments). They do not apply any more.

........

 

Thum: It was the dudes that fornicated with the women that had to marry them (see

Deut22:28-29).

 

 

OnceConvinced: Nope, sorry, these passages here are clearly talking about rape not

fornication. Be consistent with the previous verses. Don't take it out of

context. Are you once again trying to twist scripture by changing the meaning

of words?

 

Thumbelina : ... and I suppose vs 30 is talking about rape too huh?

 

OnceConvinced: Of course. It refers to “taking” your father’s wife. Looks like rape to me.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:Eh, stop it OnceConvinced, it is talking about fornication/adultery and betrayal. You're a mischievous fellow aren't you?

 

 

..............

 

Thum: Hey Mister, where did I supposedly twist scripture? It's you blind ol' atheistic types that can't see the truth.

 

OnceConvinced: I can’t speak for atheists, but I just take scripture at face value. I don’t see any need to twist it or justify it like you do.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Atheists have their heads stuck in the sand.lol (sorry atheists).OK, some of them came from churches that had spurious teachings; otherwise they maybe would not have become atheists? Yeah, yeah they're gonna say science, science --- whatever!

 

I do not twist scripture, maybe I may not be good at conveying what it teaches but I won't deliberately twist it; that would be lying and all liars will ultimately end up in hell. If you don't get with it you'll end up getting the mark of the beast in your right hand. The mark is simply who you give your allegiance to, God or Satan; there are only two sides. The mark in the forehead symbolizes those who give their allegiance to Satan with their eyes wide shut and the mark in the right hand symbolizes those who did not give their allegiance to God and therefore unwittingly gave it to the devil and they will be forced into getting the mark. A pseudo religious ecumenical movement will get them to join them and bow to Babylon.

..........

 

 

OnceConvinced: And let's just assume it is talking about fornication what sort of a stupid law

is that? Make two people who probably don't love each other get married? Once

again appalling on your God's part and just setting two people up for a life of

misery (not to mention their future kids), particularly the woman who becomes

the possession of the man. Cruel and vindictive laws.

 

 

Thumbelina : The father had to approve the marriage and if the girl didn't want to marry the dude then most likely the parent would not have to forced the issue; though some pig headed papa may have tried, who knows?

As I said before, God had to allow Moses to write those TEMPORARY laws cuz the Israelites were ALREADY breaking the 10 Commandments left and right and Jesus had to come through that lineage so He can save us. Those laws were a deterrent to them breaking the 10 Commandments.

 

OnceConvinced: You make an awful lot of assumptions. How can you know what God was intending or why he did things a certain way. Are you now saying you understand God’s methods and ways? It amuses me the way you shuck and jive to try to justify the bible.

 

The fact remains, your God is an appalling God, not loving, not merciful, just or worthy of worship.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Ahem, I do not shuck and jive, the bible says what happened, one just has to go to and fro in the scriptures to get the big picture. It's fun too, more exciting than movies etc. God gave us imaginations and the instances where there is no "thus saith the Lord" I say "what if? or maybe etc.

.......................

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: BTW, I hope you looked early on in this chapter at this verse:

Deu 22:5

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the

LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

 

I hope you always wear dresses, otherwise you're violating God's laws

 

 

Thumbelina : Those verses were talking about people who were confusing the heck out of everyone ; they were cross dressers. There should be a distinction between the genders.

 

OnceConvinced: So how is a woman deemed to be a cross dresser? And what’s so bad about confusing people? And where do you get this justification? Once again sounds like assumptions on your part. I guess as long as you can convince yourself…

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I have had an experience where I was around this person and could not tell if that person was male or female even after a few minutes, maybe a couple of hours. I had to go ask someone and was informed that she was female. That happened to her a lot, one time this lady was about to ask someone if she were a boy or girl when she came around and the lady threw caution to the wind and asked :"Are you a boy or a girl?! " I mean she looked like a dude, her clothing style etc. were quite masculine. Anyway, GOD'S FOLLOWERS should be distinct from surrounding cultures that deviate from God's rules. I don't want to be a boy and don't want anyone mistaking me for one either.

 

OnceConvinced: What do you think of this verse in that chapter.'

Deu 22:19 ...

 

 

OnceConvinced: Once again is shows women as a possession. ...

 

Thumbelina : Mr. OnceConvinced, you and I both know that in modern society there are A LOT of women who are STUCK in relationships with men whom they may not and do not love and they can leave but they don't; in a permissive age people may say otherwise but when a man and a woman are intimate it bonds them, they become one, that's why you see shows like Jerry Springer and society is full of broken families, broken people etc.

In the beginning, BEFORE SIN God made marriage for a husband and a wife who love each other; sin messed EVERYTHING UP!

 

OnceConvinced: Irrelevent. There is no law today that makes woman stay in loveless marriages. This does not justify the laws that your God set up where woman become the possession of a man. Thank "Bob" that in modern society we no longer take your God’s old barbaric and sexist laws seriously.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Who told you those "marriages" occurred a lot? There were "Ifs" in front of those laws and "If" someone did end up in one of those marriages how do you know they did not get a right relationship with God and therefore with each other and the marriage didn't work out just fine huh?

[Thumbelina]

Re: Posts # 224,225,226

@ OnceConvinced

Thumbelina said: BTW, what are you intrigued by; it's Jesus isn't it?! lol.

 

 

OnceConvinced: Ha ha. No, my days of being intrigued by Jesus are long gone. Now I’m no longer even convinced he existed, let alone that the stories about him were true. Based on what I read now, he seemed to have some good ideas, but suffered from some serious paranoid delusions.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I hope your interest in Him gets rekindled, you seem to be a cool fellow and Jesus is cool too; I think you'll like Him if you get to understand Him.

 

 

OnceConvinced: I was intrigued why you violate God’s law about women not preaching, that’s all. Anyone can justify anything with the bible. There’s enough contradictory stuff there to be able to twist it to mean and say anything you like. I’m not gonna make an issue of you preaching. Just wanted to see why you felt you could disobey those Timothy scriptures.

Response:

Thumbelina: Nah, us women can preach, teach etc. it's women becoming pastors that is up for discussion. Jesus and the father are equal but they have different roles, it's the same with men and women. I have no complaints at my church, as far as I can see the teaching about women are fair.

 

OnceConvinced: BTW, I do not see the adultery law as silly. Some bible laws are actually good. But there are a lot of ridiculous cruel ones in there which I see you are doing your darndest to justify. I feel no need to try to justify them. If they’re stupid I’ll say they’re stupid and it will be for a good reason. It’s the reason why most of those stupid laws no longer exist today. We as human beings have come to realise they are stupid laws created by ignorant people. A God would not create such stupid laws, which is one of the reasons I can no longer see the bible as being divinely inspired. It’s the reason I no longer try to justify any of it.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

Some of the "laws" in the bible are man made; and they're recorded to show the stupid ideas us humans can come up with; so we can learn from them i.e. not to follow suit.

 

 

............................

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: His eternity was interrupted by a detour but it will be reestablished.

 

OnceConvinced: A detour he knew full well he would have to take, but made no adjustments to his design. A detour he wouldn’t have had to have taken if he’d just not created Satan at all, a detour that will result in billions of people burning in Hell because he allowed it to happen.

And you worship this malevolent asshole?

 

I’m just so glad this God of yours doesn’t exist.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Says you!

 

 

Thumbelina: I was just teasing ya, you seem to be a good sport so why not huh?

 

OnceConvinced:Yeah, sorry, I can take a joke, but I just can’t resist retaliating as though it’s not.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: lol. See? you're a mischievous person, just like me!

 

 

Thumbelina:

I beg to differ about you not being conned. If ya think that God does not exist then you are conned. Did you happen to belong to one of those churches that would not ALLOW you to read material from other sources?

 

OnceConvinced: I disagree, I say that it is you that was conned into believing a lie, when there is no evidence of any of it being true. You have been conned into a delusion just as Muslims, Hindus and all the others have been. I see your religion as no different to them.

 

The churches I’ve been to have been fine. Never tried to stop me from doing anything. One problem I did have was believing everything the bible and other respected Christians told me. I learnt to start looking at it for myself. Once you start reading the bible and studying it without the Christian mindset then you realise that you’ve been conned. Whatever you do, Thum keep those rose-colored glasses on, otherwise you too will end up as an ex-Christian like I did.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Intelligent Design is more logical than saying we came fro nothing; God gives purpose and meaning and when one looks at the world, imperfect as it is, one still sees footprints of God. It sure beats: Where did you come from? Rearranged pond scum. What is your purpose? To pass on my genes. Are we alone here? Yes. Where are we going? Back to pond scum. Eeeek, that sure is depressing! ... and I did hear testimonies from former atheists and yes, God was the missing factor in their lives.

Also, as I said already, God and I have had and do have some good times together so I'm sticking with Him.

 

Everyone has a religion even the ones that claim not to believe in a deity. I know because God made us with an innate desire to worship; that's why atheists are obsessed with talking about a god that they supposedly don't believe in. lol.

 

In my church we are admonished to not take what the pastors say but to check it against the bible and to study for ourselves.

A believer has to have a relationship with God and relationships take time and effort. Also you were supposed to prayerfully STUDY the bible and read it with an open heart.

[Shyone]

All of your answers are flawed, and they are getting worse as time goes on. Centauri doesn't need me to answer for him (thank goodness, because the labor of doing so would be ulcer provoking), but I'll just poke at these:

 

 

Centauri:Rewrite this one too, so people will clearly understand that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

www.biblos.com <--- Here, this ws has some good commentaries if you WANT to read it.

 

So you don't understand yourself, can't give an answer, and claim "someone else knows".

 

Thumbelina: Uh, I'm not responsible for other Christians, IF a member of my church were caught eating pork, shrimp, crabs etc. then my church would move their name from off its records. Don't get me wrong, they could still attend, it's just that they won't be able to hold any offices within the church until they repent.

 

What about more serious offenses? Say Murder, rape and child molestation. Would they be unable to hold offices within the church until they repent?

 

Christians have that reptentence thing that absolves them of responsibility. Again and again.

 

======================================================

 

It really isn't important that you don't understand that omniscience precludes free will. It doesn't matter that you don't comprehend that slaughter is a bad thing, or that children slaughtered by the Hebrews were just as dead as the ones that would have been sacrificed. Your apologistic twisting and distortion could not possibly convince anyone but yourself, and you're already convinced.

 

Ironic that you are debating someone with the nickname, Once Convinced.

 

"You want to be the arbiter of right and wrong but God's standards are way higher than ours." Are you referring to the purity of the animals for sacrifice?

 

If you're talking about morals, WOW are you lying. Lot fucked his two daughters and got them both pregnant. He's righteous!

Abraham held a knife with which to kill his son. His SON! He's righteous!

 

My standards are way higher than that. And way higher than yours since you accept the pointless slaughter of women and children as GOOD! Really good! Because God is Good when he does evil things. So evil is Good! At least according to you.

 

That is really disgusting.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina

 

Do you believe the following?

If so then sin must be good since God is the one that names them or creates them through law.

 

If sin and evil are not good then are you saying that corruption can come from a good tree/God?

 

Deuteronomy 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

 

Matthew 7:18

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

I was also wondering how literally you read the Bible? Do you believe in real talking animals and miracles of all kinds?

 

Regards

DL

 

 

Sin is the absence of God.It is the transgression of His law.

 

The bible has a lot of symbolic language but their are a lot of literal teachings too.

 

Re: Deuteronomy 32:4, Jesus is The Rock. Catholics tend to say it's Peter so they could justify popery but no, The Rock is Jesus.

 

Re: Matthew 7:18 . It's talking about the condition of a person's heart/mind whether it is evil or not. The "fruits" are the fruits of the spirit.

 

Yes I do believe in biblical miracles, however, the bible says that Satan can counterfeit certain miracles in order to deceive us so we have to test everything through God's word and the 10 commandments in particular.

[par4dcourse]

Yes I do believe in biblical miracles, however, the bible says that Satan can counterfeit certain miracles in order to deceive us so we have to test everything through God's word and the 10 commandments in particular.

 

A devil smart enough to "counterfeit certain miracles" sounds smart enough to counterfeit certain parts of the bible too. How do you know hte devil hasn't led you and millions of others astray already?

[NotBlinded]

The point of manipulating Pharaoh was to ensure that he did not let the people go, thus bringing glory to God for performing great miracles.

Exodus 4 is the first time the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is discussed.

God is the instigator of this hardening.

I'm sorry, this is just funny.

 

Do you realize how silly this sounds? Yes, God must manipulate a person, that would willingly let people go, in order to bring glory on himself. A manipulator and a glory stealer!

 

Please...

[florduh]

This thread is a waste of time, but I looked in to see what Larry said. Good question, Par.

[NotBlinded]

Response:

Thumbelina: Humph! you're naughty too, you know full well what I meant. I meant that God cannot allow His creations to do whatever they choose. Justice has to be meted out otherwise the entire universe would end up like this planet.

What? Do you mean that the entire universe would support life and appear as a green and blue oasis in space?

 

What is wrong with this planet? What mindset do you have that causes you to see this planet as some kind of hell that exists in the universe? Oh, yeah...nevermind.