To All Of God's Critics

[NotBlinded]

Yes I do believe in biblical miracles, however, the bible says that Satan can counterfeit certain miracles in order to deceive us so we have to test everything through God's word and the 10 commandments in particular.

If Satan can counterfeit miracles, how do you know that the bible isn't a counterfeit of Satan?

 

It looks like evil has the upper hand in that book most of the time. Those that reject that book may have just found God.

[NotBlinded]

Yes I do believe in biblical miracles, however, the bible says that Satan can counterfeit certain miracles in order to deceive us so we have to test everything through God's word and the 10 commandments in particular.

 

A devil smart enough to "counterfeit certain miracles" sounds smart enough to counterfeit certain parts of the bible too. How do you know hte devil hasn't led you and millions of others astray already?

Oops...I see you beat me to it!

 

Really though, it could have been the dark, looming, evil forces working their magic at the Council of Nicaea. I must laugh at the stupidity of this because the only evil working there was desire and misunderstanding in the minds of men.

[par4dcourse]

Oops...I see you beat me to it!

 

Really though, it could have been the dark, looming, evil forces working their magic at the Council of Nicaea. I must laugh at the stupidity of this because the only evil working there was desire and misunderstanding in the minds of men.

 

And I'm still smiling over the "god bringing glory to himself" line. Good catch.

[centauri]

Re: Posts # 198-201

@ Centauri

Dude, I hope you didn't think I was fighting with you? I'm more into friendly sparring; the sheath on my sword stays on. If you feel any cutting, blame God and not me; He likes us to go to Him for answers.

You haven’t established that your version of God exists.

But I realize that you don’t think you have to have to establish anything, not even in a non-Christian forum.

Your job is to propagandize and bulldoze assorted claims, not to validate them as actually being true.

The problem is that millions of people are subjected to unproved Christian propaganda and often suffer for it, constantly worried that they will be punished for not believing whatever a Christian preacher or operative tells them.

False advertising is not a virtue no matter what "god" it attaches itself to.

 

 

Centauri: "Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?"

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, I would ask you to CAREFULLY read what I write. I said in my church the parents live or are supposed to live a consecrated life and that WE BELIEVE that it would cover their children's eternal life should they die before they reach the age of accountability.The bible DOES NOT TEACH that children become tainted with sin from Adam. It teaches that humans face the consequence of Adam's sin which is death, the first death i.e. Humans are naturally selfish and are born with sinful tendencies but God winks in times of ignorance and young children and babies don't know what the heck they're doing. My God is a just God.That original sin doctrine is a fallacy.

You still haven’t provided a New Testament definition of what the age of accountability actually is or when it takes effect.

Plenty of Christians, including the Catholic Church, have told me that your doctrine of original sin not existing is a fallacy, and the scripture supports them.

Rom 5:12,19

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

It’s up to you to prove them wrong and if they’re wrong then the Holy Spirit has misled them, which opens up another can of worms for you to deal with.

 

Centauri: You’re going to find that on this forum there are people that aren’t going to swallow the standard Christian talking points that you’ve put forth here.

If I ask “loaded” questions, it’s because I found many of your claims to be a load.

Yes, I have looked at the Bible many times.

That’s why I asked you to support your claim about Satan being at odds with the Creator.

From your answer I assume that you cannot find any verses in the Old Testament that identify Satan as ever disobeying God.

That pokes a large hole in your original claim about Satan.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, God's word is not an empty dictate to which mere humans can add meaning and content. Sure, humans wrote it but it is inspired and I did realize where you were headed with your loaded questions. The bible has to be taken http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%203:16-17&version=KJV'>as a whole and NOT in parts. Genesis to Revelation tells the WHOLE story and God said that that devil was acting up in heaven and then he got kicked down here. I addressed this topic in one of my other posts on this ws, maybe in another thread, I don't remember.

 

The bible says that IT needs to be studied and NOT read only.I could read a book on quantum physics but that DOES NOT mean I understand it; I'll have to study it and I'll have to be taught by an expert in it. Same with the bible, one must be teachable and one MUST allow the Holy Spirit to teach them.

There is no universal Holy Spirit that teaches Christians.

If there were, Christians would display the complete unity that Jesus prayed for.

None of this instructional gibberish establishes Satan as disobeying God, per the Hebrew scriptures.

You still haven’t supported, using the Hebrew scriptures, that Satan is continually at odds with God.

Satan is the Christian whipping boy, just as the Pharisees were whipping boys for Jesus.

All you’ve done is imply that New Testament theology overrides the Old Testament.

Prove that it does.

[centauri]

Centauri: Moses transmitted the law of God to the people.

Unless you’re claiming that Moses made up his own laws and passed them off as God’s, this apologetic is obfuscation and irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:Mr. Centauri, I never said that the MORAL LAW, the 10 Commandments were done away with, I said the ceremonial laws were done away with; no more animal sacrifices were/are necessary, nor are those laws about people having to marry people they fornicated with etc. applicable today.

 

If you actually want to know about the doctrine on the 2 covenants I would be happy to give you a link to where it is discussed in detail.

I don't think you need to rely on an apologetic site for this one.

This should be easy for you.

Cite the specific verses in the Old Testament that say some laws would be permanently done away with while other laws would stay in place.

Cite the specific verses in the Old Testament that say an expected king messiah would do away with some of the laws.

 

Centauri: Jesus was not the son of David because he has no paternal biological link to David.

Saying that this stipulation doesn’t matter is disingenuous.

It waves away the promise God made to David, reducing God to a charlatan.

Even if women could pass on kingships, Mary has no listed genealogy and cannot be established as being from the House of David.

Wishful thinking and posited miracles aren’t going to cut it on this forum.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: God does not discriminate.

God's kingdom is not of this sinful world!

This apologetic link doesn’t to resolve the problems and employs the same wishful thinking you rely on.

excerpt:

“Luke’s lineage goes through Mary. Its purpose is to prove the humanity of Jesus, showing that he is a descendant of Adam.”

 

Mary isn’t mentioned anywhere in Luke 3.

 

“Luke’s genealogy follows Jesus fleshly lineage

1. Though it starts with Joseph, Joseph here stands in for Mary, his wife.

2. Luke uses the older style of only naming the men

3. We know it is not Joseph’s lineage because it doesn’t follow the succession of kings.

4. A son-in-law can be referred to as a son – 1 Sam 24:16”

 

1. The text says nothing about Joseph standing in for Mary.

2. This is irrelevant to the issue and does nothing to establish the genealogy as Mary’s.

3. Luke says it is Joseph’s lineage.

Luke 3:23

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

 

4. Luke used the “in-law” designation in his gospel but he did not use it anywhere in the genealogy.

Luke does not identify Joseph as the son-in-law of Heli, rather he is the son of Heli.

1 Sam 24:16 is not a genealogy.

Cite a genealogy where a son-in-law takes the place of a biological descendant.

 

Centauri: Tapping the sperm of Joseph isn’t going to work either because Joseph was from a cursed line, one that could not produce a king.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I said "What if?" Whatever it was it was a miracle and I believe it! Whatever, Jesus loves everybody!

It isn’t legal because Joseph can’t pass the throne to anyone, being himself descended from Jeconiah.

There is no paternal biological link to David, and there is nothing to validate Jesus as having that vital link.

This apologetic ignores the stipulations and attempts to justify Jesus with wishful thinking.

 

Centauri:What is the truth about eating pork?

Is it offensive to God? A yes or no will suffice here.

Thumbelina: Yes

Centauri:Then why do Christians ignore this absolute truth?

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Uh, I'm not responsible for other Christians, IF a member of my church were caught eating pork, shrimp, crabs etc. then my church would move their name from off its records. Don't get me wrong, they could still attend, it's just that they won't be able to hold any offices within the church until they repent.

Do you go to Christian forums and let people know that they need to repent for eating pork and shellfish?

Do you preach to Christians about this sin?

 

Centauri: This is more wishful thinking and denial on your part.

You’re wishfully thinking that the inner circle would have understood without any personal instruction from Jesus.

The text says nothing of the sort.

Jesus gave them the secret meaning because they couldn’t understand any better than the crowd did.

The crowd wasn’t self-deceived, they were deliberately confused by Jesus.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

The text says nothing about the crowd wanting to instigate the demise of Jesus.

They were a large crowd that came to listen to Jesus and this was used by the New Testament writers as an opportunity to ape the mission of Isaiah and manufacture a fulfillment.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Mr. Centauri, you are thinking about earthly attributes and the bible is talking about discerning spiritual truths; it's referring to people who would ultimately gain eternal life; the point is they eventually got it. The verses were/are talking about open hearts. Those people that had/have closed hearts will ultimately end up in hell.

I wasn't only referring to that specific text when I said they instigated the demise of Jesus, I was referring to the whole plot based on what the bible teaches and what I believe Christianity teaches.

Jesus made sure their minds were confused by employing obfuscation.

That was the point.

[Shyone]

<snip>

 

Jesus made sure their minds were confused by employing obfuscation.

That was the point.

Interesting. What you have written (in the snipped part) clearly establishes that:

 

1. Jesus was not eligible to be the Messiah

2. The geneologies attempting to prove some connection to David are fabricated and irrelevent

3. Thumbelina and the apologetic sites it uses are liars who really don't care, and will admit to being liars when confronted with their lies: "Whatever it was it was a miracle and I believe it! Whatever, Jesus loves everybody!"

 

Yeah, whatever.

[centauri]

Centauri: According to scripture, your original claim about free will was a lie and this response has done nothing to rectify it.

You then compound the lie by calling an ultimatum a “free gift”.

Free gifts require nothing in return.

The gift of salvation by the Christian God requires several affirmative actions in return.

A gift isn’t free if it requires a specific response in return.

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Christianity teaches grace and that Jesus justified each person by sacrificing Himself for us.

Dick Innes sums up what Christians believe:

“Justice is when we get what we deserve.

Mercy is when we don’t get what we deserve.

But grace is when we get what we don’t deserve.”

 

Of course one has to accept the gift but it does not negate the fact that it is free and you don't have to earn it. A person believes and then comes to God just as they are; then when one spends time getting to know Him He sanctifies them and as long as they continue in that saving relationship with Jesus they will be saved (glorified).

And the Christian game goes on and on.

It’s not free because it requires affirmative actions on the part of the believer.

If it was truly free, nothing would be required in return.

You must earn salvation by responding properly.

An improper response results in punishment.

Ultimatums are not “gifts”.

 

Centauri:

Wishful thinking isn’t reality Thumbelina.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Hey since you said it's wishful thinking, if you were to believe it, would it make sense to you? Regarding you skeptics saying everything started from nothing : Wishful thinking isn’t reality Centauri.

I’m not the one foisting wishful thinking as the word and will of God.

That would be you.

 

Thumbelina: Pharaoh hardened his own dang heart!

 

Centauri:That’s not what the text says.

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. ...

 

 

Just as you tried to redefine the word “predestine”, you now define the affirmative phrase “I will harden his heart” to mean that God doesn’t interfere with Pharaoh’s “free will”, something that you have in no way established as existing in the first place.

The point of manipulating Pharaoh was to ensure that he did not let the people go, thus bringing glory to God for performing great miracles.

Exodus 4 is the first time the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is discussed.

God is the instigator of this hardening.

 

Centauri: It’s God's idea and Pharaoh is the vehicle that’s used to manifest glory for God.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: It was to manifest God's glory or to show God's character but Pharaoh had a choice, to accept to live eternally with his maker or not and he chose not to.

You’ve ignored the text again.

When God manipulates a mind to do something, you cannot simply assume they had a choice.

 

Heh heh, another theme that goes through the bible is that although Satan means most/all instances for bad, God can bring good out of them.

God is allowing unfallen beings and us to compare His ways against Satan's ways or humanity's ways. Maybe you should compare the verses in the margin of your bible so you can get the big picture or even look at the Hebrew words used for "harden" when it comes to Pharaoh and God hardening his heart. In a lot of instances in the bible, God uses prophetic language (hence the "I will") because HE KNOWS THE FUTURE.

God doesn’t simply know the future, he takes an active role in bringing it about, according to his will.

Satan isn’t mentioned as taking part in anything Pharaoh did.

It was God that said he would harden the heart of Pharaoh in order to make him take certain actions.

 

Centauri:Rewrite this one too, so people will clearly understand that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

www.biblos.com <--- Here, this ws has some good commentaries if you WANT to read it.

At least this better clarifies why you’re here.

You’re specifically here to promote Christian apologetic sites along with your personal version of God.

[centauri]

All of your answers are flawed, and they are getting worse as time goes on. Centauri doesn't need me to answer for him (thank goodness, because the labor of doing so would be ulcer provoking),...

I'm glad you address some of Thumbelina's claims, because it certainly is tedious reading through them.

[Shyone]

All of your answers are flawed, and they are getting worse as time goes on. Centauri doesn't need me to answer for him (thank goodness, because the labor of doing so would be ulcer provoking),...

I'm glad you address some of Thumbelina's claims, because it certainly is tedious reading through them.

You are the Master. Of understatement.

[Astreja]

I prefer the biblical point of view that puts all humans as equal; that none is better than the other. There would be no discrimination or oppressions or violence etc. if that rule was to be followed.

If only you were to experience how that 'rule' was applied to My Scandinavian ancestors when the Christians invaded our lands circa 1000 CE, you might be able to understand the harm that Christianity has done to the world.

 

I would like to see others know the truth as I believe it to be and I do not need to earn salvation for my Jesus already justified me.

No, Thumbelina. You are not saved, nor are you justified, nor do you have anything even vaguely resembling 'the truth.' Your faith shall die with you, and you shall never see your Jesus. This is your fate, and no amount of prayer shall save you.

 

If you don't believe Me, try to pray tonight in the dreamless phase of your sleep. You will not be able to do it, because 'you' will not be sentient at that moment. That is what awaits you after death: The total extinction of all that you think you are right now, and all that you have ever believed.

 

I get a funny feeling in my heart for atheists/agnostics etc. and I suppose it is love, though it really does not negate the fact that atheists need a virtual swift kick in the pants! However, God should be the one to do the kicking.

There you have it, folks: The ugly face of the True Christian™, decorating her contempt with cute little smileys and defaming the good name of love.

 

Thumbelina, I do not like you. Not even a little bit. If you had come to My house and said those words to Me in person you would be summarily thrown off My property, not allowed to return, and not allowed to apologize.

 

My wish for you is that you lose your faith and never, ever regain it.

[Michael]

Mr. Michael Sir, you do not like the use of pejorative English?

Well, Mrs. Thumbelina, sometimes I treat people without the appropriate respect. Especially when I am tired (physically and/or mental).

 

Skeptics generally do not care. Besides, no matter what a believer tells a skeptic their usual mantra is "We are smarter than you!" I suppose since God is in the ditch with skeptics SOME will need to find something to make themselves FEEL good about (it is human nature).

Xians generally do not care. Besides, no matter what an ex-christian/atheist tells a xian their usual mantra is "We are smarter than you!" I suppose since the facts are in the ditch with xians SOME will need to find something to make themselves FEEL good about (it is human nature).

 

I prefer the biblical point of view that puts all humans as equal; that none is better than the other. There would be no discrimination or oppressions or violence etc. if that rule was to be followed.

We must have different bibles. The bible is pure racism. The Jewish people is chosen by god. It is a "holy" people. Other people can be raped, killed, burned...you get the picture. Equality is not existent in the bible. Btw. women would be oppressed, gay people would be oppressed... but that is another story.

 

I get a funny feeling in my heart for atheists/agnostics etc. and I suppose it is love, though it really does not negate the fact that atheists need a virtual swift kick in the pants! However, God should be the one to do the kicking.

You still have no idea, where the people in this forum come from and I guess you do not care.

 

I hope you're fine and now I must bid you adieu for I am going to bother Mr. Centauri and OnceConvinced. There are others I would like to gently tease but I just can't get to them.

We all need a hobby...

[skepticalme]

I prefer the biblical point of view that puts all humans as equal; that none is better than the other. There would be no discrimination or oppressions or violence etc. if that rule was to be followed.

 

Leviticus 25:44-45 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."

 

Here you have god telling his 'CHOSEN' people that they can own slaves. Kind of blows that "all humans as equals; none is better than the other" idea out of the water. It would appear that your "biblical point of view" is an amendment you are trying to make to scripture. I see xtians do this all the time; take their own personal views and call them biblical views in an attempt to lend authority to those views. It works because so few people actually look to see if what they are saying is in their. And if something contadictory to their views is found in scripture it is ignored or written off as a misinterpretation. Those are pretty effective techniques of letting yourself and others believe that scriptures says whatever you want it to say.

 

The idea that,"All men are created equal" is a relatively new idea that precedes your bible so either we are wrong in believing all people are equal or your bible is NOT inspired by divine revelation and only reflects the views PEOPLE held in that day.

 

I choose the latter.

[Michael]

The point of manipulating Pharaoh was to ensure that he did not let the people go, thus bringing glory to God for performing great miracles.

 

Why do you call the slaughter of innocent children a "great miracle"? How sick is your world view? We are talking about real human beings, children that can feel pain and emotions, parents who lost the most precious in a cruel and violent way. Slaughter is a miracle? The next time you meet an Egypt family, look at them. They are real, made out of flesh, they breathe, laugh and cry (http://www.buffry.org.uk/children1.jpg) They are not just a decoration for a "great miracle". You still treat non-xians like a scenery, a stage decoration for the great story of gods salvation. You give a shit about the individual being. We have to see the "big picture". People are not equal in the face of god as you have mentioned, and they are not equal in your face. We have clean and holy vessels and we have the unclean and useless vessels. The entire bible is about separation and disparity, about good and evil, right and wrong.

 

Regarding the killed firstborns: As longs as you are not able to call "murder" murder and "rape" rape, you are mentally dysfunctional.

 

Maybe, due to my lack of English, I did not get the real meaning of your post. Then I would excuse.

[StevoMuso]

Regarding the killed firstborns: As longs as you are not able to call "murder" murder and "rape" rape, you are mentally dysfunctional.

Brilliant. This, IMO, is the crux of the matter.

[Vixentrox]

Regarding the killed firstborns: As longs as you are not able to call "murder" murder and "rape" rape, you are mentally dysfunctional.

Brilliant. This, IMO, is the crux of the matter.

Christians are tinged with evil. They worship an evil entity. They think evil is good. That's really all it boils down to. One cannot extol the virtues of and sing praises to a fictional evil being without being tainted by evil.

[Mriana]

All of your answers are flawed, and they are getting worse as time goes on. Centauri doesn't need me to answer for him (thank goodness, because the labor of doing so would be ulcer provoking),...

I'm glad you address some of Thumbelina's claims, because it certainly is tedious reading through them.

You are the Master. Of understatement.

 

I gave up even trying to read through them.

[Shyone]

Regarding the killed firstborns: As longs as you are not able to call "murder" murder and "rape" rape, you are mentally dysfunctional.

Brilliant. This, IMO, is the crux of the matter.

How is it just to kill family members to punish the parents?

 

Oh, in a cruel world with cruel people, it makes sense - we can certainly know that the parents would mourn the death of their loved ones. Many parents would rather that they were killed rather than their children, so killing the children makes sense in a bronze age kind of way.

 

Punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is certainly a theme of the bible - right up to the crucifixion.

 

It's so common, in fact, that I don't see what the Hebrews had against the practice of human sacrifice. Well, except for Jesus that is.

[NotBlinded]

It's so common, in fact, that I don't see what the Hebrews had against the practice of human sacrifice. Well, except for Jesus that is.

I must be in a really poor mood today because that right there hit me as hilarious, in a morbid way.

 

Damn...I'm glad it's Friday.

[Legion]

Damn...I'm glad it's Friday.

Hear! Hear!

[Paperman]

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

 

That's coming from the basis of "everyone is on the same power scale". If I were to create some beings, they'd have to be usefull for something and capable of doing something I'm incapable of doing. If I am all powerful aka all capable then I would also be all the beings I am creating. If I am not creating something that is of me, then I am not all capable and need these tools aka beings. Power would not (and cannot possibly) be an equation in the matter, I would create something alike to a rocket, a car, a cellphone, but be a live being. Compared me to those things: myself and each have varying abilities.

 

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

 

I only know of one type of will all creatures with a brain share. What knows the will of anything labeled God? To me, you either have a will or you don't. (if there are varying degrees of will, then it is beyond our knowledge)

 

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

 

I will put them in a reality where they cannot hurt anything.

 

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

If anyone does overide this reality in dissonance I would place them in a different reality. Of course one that seperates me from them. However, I would not make the mistake of creating my perfect "eden" in the same place (aka same planet) I sent them. Being "all capable" means that only eternal things could exist within me, eternal seperation should be impossible because seperation would mean the nonexistence of that being. However, if I truly am all capable and I allowed "eternal seperation", it would create a void in me and ultimatly and eventually kill me. Losing a part of myself is out of the question.

 

 

Please thoughtfully consider what I said for as long as you can bear. It's all I can say within my limits.

[OnceConvinced]

Thumb, I was a committed Christian for more than 30 years of my life. I know what the bible says about all this stuff, I know the various different takes on it and I’ve heard it all before. Really your constant preaching is getting tiresome. I used to believe a lot of it as you did. I was convinced of all that crap. I used to make similar justifications. But I can’t even be bothered debating most of this stuff anymore and really don’t have the time to. You come up with justifications that contradict other bible claims. Try to look at things consistently. Take your logic for one thing and apply it to the entire bible. You will see that it contradicts many things.

 

To me it is now so obvious that the concepts of God in the bible were created by ignorant, superstitiuos, sexist, racist bigots. This is why your God comes out looking incompetent, malevolent and stupid.

 

I will try to bring everything back to the original topic of this thread and my original post.

 

 

Thumbelina: Looky here OnceConvinced! you seem to want to categorize sin but to a Holy God sin is sin and it is nasty! I keep telling you that sin proliferates and it contaminates; God knew this but some silly created beings did not understand it.

 

Yep, I used to believe that a white lie is as evil in God’s eyes as raping a child. However now I get real and realise that there are categories of sin. If your God sees it all as the same evil then he is one sick twisted being and definitely not worthy of worship. It’s a good thing that most people in this world realise that some evil is worse than others. Imagine what a sick world we’d live in if child rape really was considered the same as white lies. Perhaps that is why the likes of Catholic priests have no problem molesting children.

 

Perhaps a smart God would have created us all with a disgust for sin in general, just as we might have disgust for eating faeces or washing our hair with vomit. No freewill would be violated because we could still do those things if we really wanted to.

 

 

Thumb: could you imagine if God had made Satan even more powerful,

 

An omniscient, smart, caring, loving and just God would never have created this insidious evil in the first place.

 

 

Thumbelina:

Aw c'mon OnceConvinced, how would you like it if you go to a town to conduct your business and all the men came upon the place where you were staying, surround it and wanted to "know" you in a violent way? Those Sodomites were vile, depraved, rebellious, selfish beasts.

 

Well for one thing I wouldn’t be handing over my daughters to be raped. I’d expect the angels or God to step in and do something. But basically If I were God, I would have put processes in place to prevent it getting this bad in the first place (and my suggestions would have most definitely accomplished this for the majority of the Sodomites). I’d question the competency of any God who created mankind and allowed things to get so drastically out of hand. With some of the systems I suggested, put in place right from the word go, God would never have been in the situation where he felt he needed to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

Imagine if the thought of having gay sex was just so unbelievably disgusting? I know it is for me and my free will certainly hasn’t been violated.. Just the thought of sticking my dick up another guy’s butt is appalling. What if every human being was created with this aversion from birth? That would be sensible design. You could have gay sex anyway, so no free will is violated. But who would want to? See how God could have avoided having to ruthlessly and brutally wipe out the entire city, including babies?

 

You say that the disgust for sin is there and that humans ignore it. I am not talking about conscience. I am talking about a deep seeded disgust that is inherent by design. Something that humans cannot just ignore. Something that cannot be switched off at will.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: The contingencies were/are that God designed His intelligent creatures with a conscience..

 

Obviously not everyone. The problem with conscience is that it is determined by what you have been brought up to believe. Your conscience will only kick in if you have been conditioned to see something as good or bad. In fact babies do not have a conscience at all. It is developed as they get older and is influenced by other human beings, (sometimes negatively). Therefore it’s a pretty feeble contingency. And we can see by the world today just how feeble it is, because it’s not working, is it? Not much of a God if he can’t come up with an effective contingency plan.

 

My suggestions would be applied from birth. They would be inherent in all human beings from birth and unable to be manipulated by education or culture.

 

 

Thumbelina: He is PERFECT. He made no mistakes.

 

If you have this mindset, then nothing is going to convince you other wise. To those who do not hold such a mindset, it’s pretty obvious that if your God exists this claim is not true. It is an empty claim with no evidence to back it up. In fact the evidence shows otherwise.

 

 

Thumb:

Look, if a man and his wife has some children and they raise those children to the best of their ability. They were loving to the children and they gave them freedom; they were not overbearing parents and one of there children eventually became a drug addict and a drunk, would you look at the drunk and say "Sheesh, who gave birth to that?!" No, you would think that that person chose to become that won't you?

 

Hold on, lets put this in perspective here. If we are using the analogy of a parent being God, we need to take into account some other factors. The parents created the materials for the drugs and the alcoholic drink. They allowed others to create dangerous drugs and alcohol. Furthermore they stood by and watched as their child spiralled into addiction. They were even there watching as their child took those drugs. They stood by and did nothing to prevent it. They could have called the police in or something, but they did nothing. They just said "Hey Bobby, don't do that, that's naughty and you will make me very angry". Nothing else! What sort of a parent would stand by and allow that and not lift a finger? Certainly not a loving or caring one.

 

Another thing you also need to take into account is that the parents allowed a child hating human to live in their house all througout this child's childhood. They stood by and allowed that child hating human to manipulate and lie to their child all through their life and later in adulthood, this scumbag manipulated that child into taking drugs and alcohol. And of course the parents were there that entire time and allowed this scumbag to do his worse. They didn’t step in and remove this cancer from their child’s life.

 

Also some humans are born with inherent weaknesses. Some are more susceptible to alcoholism and I daresay drug addiction too. In your scenario the parents actually designed this child with these weaknesses before birth. (knitted in their mother’s womb).

 

So you see, the parents are either malevolent and uncaring or extremely incompetent and complacent. Certainly not perfect.

 

 

Thumbelina:

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Hey man, God created "evil" meaning calamity, He created darkness too as a contrast!

 

And this is loving how?

 

 

Thumbelina: Your Idea of free will: You create a spectacular being and that being looks at himself in the mirror and says "Daaaamn, I'm gorgeous!" You the creator are the MOST spectacular because duh, you're self-existent. So you're perfect and you made a perfect and yet finite sentient being (it can be destroyed because it is not self-existent). As long as that being is following you everything is hunky dory. At the appointed time that that being starts feeling those negative emotions you would just take away the emotions? How is that freedom; or how is that love?

 

OnceConvinced: How is my suggestions taking away emotions? In no way am I suggesting any of that. Nothing I have suggested means taking away any emotions. Please explain how instilling pain, guilt or fear into your creation is removing emotions? Is it considered taking away emotions when it comes to pain and fear when it comes to physical health? Can you not see I am suggesting exactly the same sort of thing? It’s nothing different to what’s already incorporated into human beings already.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: We're talking here about the juncture where one of your creations is starting to get sinful thoughts; you know where it would lead but they don't understand. You explain it to them, maybe you even give them a vision of what could happen but they don't believe you. They want to do what is right in their own eyes! If you give them a dose of pain at this point they still won't trust you and you would just be confirming their "reasoning" that you are a tyrant. Hey, didn't you read my analogy with Obama and Biden?

 

Won’t trust you? What has trust got to do with it? We are talking about preventing sin here, not developing trust. Trust can and should be gained in other ways. Allowing your loved ones to suffer as a result of sin and not doing anything about it, isis hardly going to develop trust in your creations. I would more likely trust a God who had got rid of Satan from the word go, rather than one who allows him to run rampant. I have to question the integrity of such a God.

 

 

 

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

 

OnceConvinced:, unless they are sadomasochists. If you suffered pain every time you committed a sin, would you continue to sin? I doubt it. It would act as a deterrent.

.......................

 

Response:

Thumbelina: We see humans doing it all the time! Like the 1 legged dude I told you about, each time he steals or molests etc. he gets beat up and the minute he feels better he goes back to doing dirty. We see that type of behavior again and again amongst humans and bible prophecy says it will end like that also,.

 

 

And like I said earlier, this one legged dude is obviously one messed up guy and in need of some serious psychological help. You have a straw man here. He is not typical of your average human.

 

I have not claimed that such methods would wipe out sin completely. After all, unintentional sin would still occur. And you would get the odd mentally deranged person, like your one legged man, who may do it anyway. But do you deny that such pain would erase the majority of desire to sin? If you suffered pain yourself, would it deter you from sinning a lot more?

 

How about disgust? If you just had such disgust for sin, would you be more or less likely to sin?

 

How about fear?

 

How about overwhelming guilt?

 

What if you had all these things? Some people have some of these things already. Why not all of them?

 

Thumb: when God resurrects the wicked dead for their judgment they WILL acknowledge that He (God) was just in banishing them. They will kneel and confess but they would still CONvince themselves that since their numbers are so large they can overthrow the Holy City and that's when God will totally unveil Himself and they will combust but they won't flame on like Johnny; they each will burn according to their WORKS but eventually they will be reduced to ashes

 

But like I’ve already pointed out, this is all too little too late and does not show a loving and merciful God. It’s not good enough to deal with the problem afterwards. You need to deal with the problem before all the mess eventuates. Your God is clearly not doing that. He has allowed everything to get completely out of control and has stood back and allowed it to happen. It’s too late when billions and billions of people end up burning in hell because of your lack of action before hand.

 

Even we as humans recognise the need to deal with the problem of crime before it occurs. Proper educations, proper care. We know as humans that punishing crime after it’s taken place is not the ideal situation. We want to protect the ones we love and ensure their safety before hand. Sure, as humans we’re not doing a good job of that, but it is something that we are trying to do. Funny that your God has done nothing to prevent all the crap. You’d think his systems WOULD work, but they’re not. In fact he has only caused more crap by creating the likes of Satan when he knew what a terrible cancer Satan would be!

[OnceConvinced]

Response:

Thumbelina: You have 4 siblings that are older than you and the first time one of them misbehaves you see your father pull out a gun and shoot him so now he's dead; would you now obey your dad because you love him completely and because you find his rules to be good ones or would you obey him because you don't want to be next?

 

But this is what the father has done when he wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah and when he sent the flood. He proved himself to be a ruthless, genocidal nut who had no love for his creations. It’s acts like these that have resulted in many Christians serving him out of fear. Afraid that God will unleash his fury.

 

And with Hell. Threats, threats, threats! Your God rules by fear, not love.

 

If my father is omniscient and knows what havoc my sibling is going to cause and I understood that, then I would love him for having saved me from such havoc. But according to you and other Christians, our pappy’s ways are not our ways and we are supposed to just trust him. So why the sudden turn around?

 

 

Thumb:

If I had a child that's totally diabolical and only wants to lie to and on his siblings, oppress and kill them, regrettably, I will have to take them out; although I love them,

 

So why didn’t he take out Satan???? Why the double standards?

 

I’ll use the analogy I used before. You as a parent allow a child hating human to live in your house with your child. You let this human play with your child and manipulate him. You even sit there and watch this, but yet you don’t remove that horrible human. What kind of loving parent are you?

 

 

 

God did take away the evil that is threatening humans and that evil is eternal death; whomever is WILLING to be saved can be saved. Whomever is not willing will eventually go back into nothingness.

 

No, the evil I am talking about is Satan. He allowed Satan to run rampant and make a mess of his creation and lead billions upon billions of his loved ones to Hell.

 

I did and do praise God when He got/gets me out of deep mess This world and our mortal life here are so temporary. God promises to be with His children during tough times.

 

Should I thank God for taking me out of the deep mess that is Christianity?

 

 

 

Satan tends to manifest himself through evil people so in effect

So you believe Satan to be omni-present, like God?

 

 

Thumb:

Believe it or not God still has that devil on a leash but God has to let Satan DEMONstrate how he would have run the universe if given a chance and boy oh boy that devil is sure failing isn't he?

 

So you admit then that Satan is God’s lap dog?

 

Like in the book of Job, God releases Satan and says “Sick ‘em boy!” Satan tears out the throats of Job’s family then comes back like an obedient puppy dog, his tongue lolling out. God pats him on the head, gives him a Scooby Treat, then puts the leash back on him.

 

If God has him on a leash, then that means he has Satan doing exactly what he wants him to do. If he’s not God’s lap dog, then he wouldn’t be on a leash, would he?

 

 

Thumb:

One time I asked God: "God, since Satan is a big flaccid, then why don't you take away the breath of life from all humans; just let all of us drop dead and then tell Satan to resurrect us?" lol. He then impressed me that humans need to go through a refining process and that might solve the problem with showing Satan up but He wants humans to live forever with Him and it's through trials and tribulations that will help us to replicate His selfless character. He's allowing His disciples to learn to become disgusted by the root of sin.

 

So in other words you came up with another justification for God from your own mind? I used to do the same thing and I also accredited it to revelations from God.

 

Thumb:

We need to have a radical dependence on God in order to live with Him but we need to willingly submit to Him.

 

In other words cast aside all critical thought and take on the Christian mindset that God is loving, just, merciful and all-powerful. Check!

 

 

 

God is letting Satan have a go at being a leader but he did not let him get total dominion of this world.

 

Would it make me loving and just if I had a homicidal evil kid and made him head of the family? Just as long as he comes when I call him and plays dead when I want him to. “Sit boy, sit! Get in behind boy! Sick ‘em!”

 

 

 

 

 

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

 

Thumb: You want to be the arbiter of right and wrong but God's standards are way higher than ours. All of us fall short of His standards that's why we have to hang on to Jesus' robe of righteousness.

You might say you don't hurt others but maybe what you construe to not be hurting someone, the person on the receiving end may say otherwise. Besides, what if you're thinking dirty but are just not acting out on it because of fear of reprisal, the sin will still be there but just not acted upon. Also, most humans say "Lord Lord" but don't obey Him, they deceive themselves into thinking they won't still end up in hell.

God is Holy and cannot put up with such nonsense for eternity. Sins begin in the heart/mind and that's enough for God's complete glory to destroy a creature.

 

Actually, the bible teaches a basic holistic view on how the human body works but the spiritual nature is the highest; that's why SILLY terrorists could blow themselves up, they're following the WRONG spirit, the devil has them duped! If someone makes up their mind to do something they would die trying to accomplish it. If as a God you have to continually move your creations like puppets then that won't be any fun; oh yeah they'd just be puppets! Imagine doing that for eternity?

 

None of this preaching refutes my idea that pain, fear, guilt, etc, could be used to prevent sin. The world would not be in the mess that it is if those ideas had been instigated. As I have said before there is no puppetry involved here. Why do you keep saying otherwise? Are we puppets when we are afraid when we face physical danger? Are we puppets when we whisk our hand away from the hot element because it burnt us? Are we puppets when we feel guilt or fear for anything? Can we push through guilt, fear and pain and still do things if we want to? Of course we can! Would we? Most likely not unless we are severely messed up in the brain, but then that would most likely be because we were born that way, which means God made us that way to begin with.

 

 

You know OnceConvinced you're echoing the same sentiments as the devil, that devil had better watch out for you want to take his job.

 

Perhaps the devil is just another word for rational thought? Perhaps being influenced by the devil is when you use your brain rather than living by faith?

 

 

 

 

:

Thumbelina:. All who go to hell will choose to; God appeals to each human's heart. At least they got to live once!

 

I have already given you a scripture that clearly shows that Hell is not a choice and that Jesus has his angels cast all sinners into Hell (Jesus obviously doesn’t like to get his hands dirty). That is a clear violation of freewill. Why do you still insist it is a choice? Do you disagree with the words of Jesus?

 

Appealing to ones heart? Let’s not forget that the heart is simply a vessel that pumps blood, nothing more. The bible is clearly wrong about the heart being the centre of deep emotions. Emotions come from the brain, nowhere else. And there is no evidence to support that deep and meaningful thoughts come from anywhere but the brain.

[OnceConvinced]

Ok, we are digressing from the topic of the thread here once again, but I can't resist:

 

OnceConvinced: But you forget, I was a Christian for many many years and held that same perspective as you. It was removing those rose-colored sun glasses a few years ago that allowed me to open my mind and not have a mindset. My views now have evolved from that. I judge it by what it says, I am not tainted by any preconceived notions of God being loving, merciful or hateful and nasty.

 

Response:

Thumbelina: Actually it's understanding the truths in the bible that affirmed my beliefs and you did not have the same perspectives as me maybe similar but not the same. As far as I could decipher you were in what the bible calls spiritual Babylon and that means that although the church members may have been sincere it is possible to be sincere and be sincerely WRONG. The church you were attending would not have understood the end time prophecies completely and I see that they do not teach keeping all 10 of the commandments.

 

How can you claim to know what my church did or didn’t understand? I have been part of many and heard many different interpretations of many different things. One thing I discovered was that there was never any unity amongst Christians, even the ones who claimed to be lead by the Holy Spirt. I too believed that I gained my perspectives from understanding bible truths too. What Christian doesn’t? One’s so-called understanding conflicts with another’s understanding. Everybody believes they’re the one that is right.

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: So I sincerely believed. All my life up until about 4-5 years ago, thus my name, “OnceConvinced”. I believed I had a relationship with him. But now I realise I was simply living in a delusion.

 

Response:

Thumbelina:

No, no no! you're in a delusion now! Jesus is the only method of salvation and the devil wants you to doubt that!

 

Or it could be that Allah is the one true God and Jesus is the devil in disguise trying to lead you away from him. I bet that Muslims would agree with me on that one!

 

 

Thumbelina:Whew! TG! Then what the heck are ya; an agnostic?

 

Yes. Why do you breath a sigh of relief? I am finding more and more just what great people atheists are. To think that once upon a time I saw them as evil, Satan following people who just wanted to torment Christians. Ha ha ha.

 

 

The bible is its own expositor, one needs to compare scripture with scripture in order to get the big picture on any given topic.

Yep. That way you can manipulate anything in scripture to mean anything else. You can take one ludicrous scripture and turn it into something less ludicrous. I began to realise that as I came to the end of my Christian walk. There’s always justifications to be found if you know how to manipulate scripture to fit with your mindset.

 

Did you ask God for help when you were reading the bible; maybe you did not have a teachable heart?

 

Of course I did. I was always open to what God had to say. What Christian isn’t? I was very serious about learning from God. I was a very teachable person and realised a lot later on in life that I took too much of what I was taught as fact, rather than using my own brain. What you are suggesting is that we put on the old Christian glasses and mindset. Don’t look at things rationally. Don’t use your brain.

 

Having done a degree (and also a certificate in adult training), I found that one of the things at that level, is you need to "learn how to learn". So that you can pick up books or whatever and learn things for yourself, rather than having to be taught by someone else.

 

Problem is those sort of learning skills aren’t really developed until you get to College level. See Bloom's Taxonomy

 

Many people never get to level 6. Even the most learned of Christians seem to stop at level 4 or 5 and go no further, not necessarily because they haven't got the skill, but because going to level 6 requires a lot of questioning of the truth of scripture. Many Christians would never dare go that far, even if they could. It would mean going outside of the bible for further study. Once you get to that point, it becomes very difficult to take anything the bible says seriously.

 

 

Thum:

 

Response:

Thumbelina:I keep telling you, those laws were added temporarily because those Israelites were breaking the perfect 10 (i.e. the 10 commandments). They do not apply any more.

 

So you claim. But that’s just your opinion. Scripture says otherwise and someone here has already pointed that scripture out.

 

 

 

Thum:

 

I do not twist scripture, maybe I may not be good at conveying what it teaches but I won't deliberately twist it;

 

I don’t think the majority of Christians do deliberately twist it. Most unwittingly twist it to be able to justify other scriptures. Most just tend not to think too hard about how one justification violates other parts of the bible.

 

 

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: BTW, I hope you looked early on in this chapter at this verse:

Deu 22:5

A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the

LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

 

Thumbelina : Those verses were talking about people who were confusing the heck out of everyone ; they were cross dressers. There should be a distinction between the genders.

 

OnceConvinced: So how is a woman deemed to be a cross dresser? And what’s so bad about confusing people? And where do you get this justification? Once again sounds like assumptions on your part. I guess as long as you can convince yourself…

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I have had an experience where I was around this person and could not tell if that person was male or female even after a few minutes, maybe a couple of hours. I had to go ask someone and was informed that she was female. That happened to her a lot, one time this lady was about to ask someone if she were a boy or girl when she came around and the lady threw caution to the wind and asked :"Are you a boy or a girl?! " I mean she looked like a dude, her clothing style etc. were quite masculine. Anyway, GOD'S FOLLOWERS should be distinct from surrounding cultures that deviate from God's rules. I don't want to be a boy and don't want anyone mistaking me for one either.

 

So you have a butch woman, so she can’t wear trousers, otherwise you may get confused as to whether she’s a man or a woman? Really? LOL. I mean come on, Thumb, you’ve come up with some ridiculous justifications, but that one takes the cake. What’s so terrible about not knowing the sex of a person? Is it necessary to be sure of their sex? If a woman is butch, should she be discriminated against? She doesn’t get to wear trousers because she’ll look too much like a man? Why would God be so concerned about something like this? How petty and stupid is he? Why does there need to be such a distinction? (unless you are claiming this is one of those man-made laws, not inspired by God)

 

 

 

Response:

Thumbelina: I hope your interest in Him gets rekindled, you seem to be a cool fellow and Jesus is cool too; I think you'll like Him if you get to understand Him.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

In some ways Jesus was cool, but he also suffered from paranoid delusions and demonised those who disagreed with him.

 

God would have to do something pretty miraculous for my interested to be rekindled. Just recently it crossed my mind if he’d done a simple thing, I would have believed again without doubt, but it didn’t happen.

 

It would also need him violating my freewill by wiping all the facts and past experiences from my mind that have proven the bible to be inaccurate and unreliable. But seeing as he doesn’t violate freewill, that’s never going to happen, is it?

 

 

 

Thumbelina:

Some of the "laws" in the bible are man made; and they're recorded to show the stupid ideas us humans can come up with; so we can learn from them i.e. not to follow suit.

 

I’d say the entire bible shows the stupid ideas humans come up with.

 

But let’s say parts of it are divinely inspired and parts human’s have conjured up. How can you really tell which parts are? How can you take any of it seriously? Before you claim the Holy Spirit is needed, don’t forget that one person’s “Holy Spirit” understand conflicts with another person’s “Holy Spirit” understanding. The unity is simply not there, which it should be if the HS is involved.

 

 

Thumbelina: Intelligent Design is more logical than saying we came fro nothing;

 

I know of no one who believes we came from nothing, except for bible believers. They believe that one day an all-knowing, all-powerful being winked himself into existence one day, said “Abracadabra” and made things appear out of nothing. Ouila! Intelligent Design. And you say that’s more logical?

 

God gives purpose and meaning ,

 

I no longer require God for my purpose and meaning. I have just as much without him and I have found those purposes and meaning very similar to the type Christians have. It’s just that there’s no God restricting me or manipulating me.

 

and when one looks at the world, imperfect as it is, one still sees footprints of God.

 

You see the footprints if you want to see them. You are like the puddle marvelling at how the hole you are in is just perfect for you.

 

It sure beats: Where did you come from? Rearranged pond scum. What is your purpose? To pass on my genes. Are we alone here? Yes. Where are we going? Back to pond scum. Eeeek, that sure is depressing! ...

 

Another strawman. Whether it sounds depressing or not is irrelevant and proves nothing. Does the truth have to be pretty? Does it have to be inspiring or wonderful? What if we are from rearranged pond scum? Nothing we can do about that? LOL. Perhaps one should just not get hung up on such trivial details. Really what is so different about pond scum compared to a fist full of dirt? (the bible's take on it) Fact is we are here now as human beings, living our lives. Whether God created us out of dirt or we evolved from pond scum, it's amazing no matter what way you look at it. At least the pond scum theory doesn’t involve a magical being who says magic words and makes things out of nothing.

[Shyone]

In the midst of my nausea, I thought the following juxtaposition was especially entertaining:

 

 

Thum:

 

Response:

Thumbelina:I keep telling you, those laws were added temporarily because those Israelites were breaking the perfect 10 (i.e. the 10 commandments). They do not apply any more.

 

So you claim. But that’s just your opinion. Scripture says otherwise and someone here has already pointed that scripture out.

 

 

 

 

Thum:

 

I do not twist scripture, maybe I may not be good at conveying what it teaches but I won't deliberately twist it;

 

I don’t think the majority of Christians do deliberately twist it. Most unwittingly twist it to be able to justify other scriptures. Most just tend not to think too hard about how one justification violates other parts of the bible.

 

In the first part, she twists scripture to her own delight. In the second, she says she doesn't twist scripture.

 

I had to laugh at this.

[Godtastic]

Thumbelina - being able to answer a hypothetical question is not proof of anything.

 

If I were an all powerful God, I would create things that were as powerful, but not more powerful than me. They would ultimately not have free will because as the all-knowing, all powerful God I would know automatically what they planned to do. My creations could not hurt me because I'm all powerful, however they could hurt each other if I permit it (I'm all powerful). As an all powerful God, what I do with them can never be considered punishment because I am all powerful. It would be as if they were fashioned from a ball of clay. I would eventually get bored with them & roll them back into the ball of clay.

 

If I were a childish God, I could torture them and make them feel bad when they did bad things that I knew they were going to do. However, as a God, I would hope I would get beyond petty feelings.

 

And I have, for I am Godtastic.