Why christianity still exists...

[Vulgaris Prime]

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo!  Somebody call this guy a waaaaah-mbulance!

 

You got it:

 

 

Can I save you a lot of time and aggravation?

 

And don't forget all of us, too...

 

Don't bother trying to refute this. You will never be able to reconcile this discrepency. Rest assured, anything you get from any apologetic website, we've heard million times and have a rebuttal waiting in advance.

 

And yet he'll post it and run away, thinking he's won, just like he always does... just like liars always do.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

You got it:

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That vehicle gets around, doesn't it? Bad roleplayers, whiny-ass LJers, and now Fundies.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Just because I don't have an endless amount of time to answer every single question or line that is dropped my way I'm at fault?

 

* Not my problem amigo, you started this wit-fight half armed.

 

You do realize this is an ex-Christian board, because I do, and that being so... how many quesitons do you suppose will come at me?  Are you telling me that just because a person asks me a question, unless I answer every single one of them I'm at fault? 

 

*Well duh Danny. As one of our posters once sagely quipped, "Did you think this was the ToleranceForIdiocy.org boards?

 

You're bias, and so is anyone else that would throw me "out the door." 

 

*Well amigo, The Boss has asked me to be his Garbage Man. There are folks on Staff here more educated, better and sweeter spoken and much more able to communicate their distaste for posters who continually waste space.

As for daFatman, all of me is fairly well guided to protecting Mr. Van Allen's Boards best I am able.

"Tossing people back out the front door" is an unfortunate and distasteful function of Dave's Janitor. Hate to do so, but after several askings, I get to sweeping, hurl, barf, piss, shat, blood and mucus and all.

 

Not that it matters... whether I remain here and continue to do as I do, or whether I am removed... know that I will not follow your degenerate Christ rejecting beliefs. 

 

*You don't know shit about my belief_or_lack_of_belief_structure. As to being a degenerate? Hell yes, I am a practicing unregenerate. Was made right first time, and buba-san, when it is good, IT IS GREAT..

 

You are wrong, God is right, and had you saught Him with all your heart you would currently know that as I know that.

 

Danny my bot, I was once you. I lubba'd luvva'd jebus and the hollie spookies with all my heart.

 

I woke up. I would logic and freethought reach your core and free your mind from religious shackles that hold and bind.

 

Freedom is a scarey word to flockmember.

 

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This is your last chance to at least try and prove one of your postulations, offer verifiable proof of anything you are so convicted(1) of.

 

1. Conviction: n 1: an unshakable belief in something without need for proof or evidence (dictionary.com)

 

If you can't find time to prove to we, the *unchurched*

(read: not_your_faiths_worship_place)

that you have something new and improved, gonna suspect you are wasting Dave's server space, will be treated as such.

 

If you continue to try and shimmy out of taking a good argument to a logical conclusion, I will have you take a time out.

 

kevinL

[iprayican]

Jesus fucking Christ, you're still full of yourself.

I've told you about a thousand fucking times to PROVE IT.  So has Neil.  So has TSO. You still haven't produced, just spoken your lying weasel words.

Oh, really?  So what do you call every fucking post you've made?  The TRUUUUUTH?  Well, tough luck, dumb fuck, it's NOT.  Not until you produce some REAL, HARD, CONCRETE FUCKING EVIDENCE that it is!

You just don't want to own up to me or TSO.  You're a fucking Coward for Christ, just like all your other liar buddies who refuse to answer questions.  And you're going to suffer the same fate as them: you're going to spend a miserable life denying yourself the freedom you should have, and die miserable.

 

Fuck you, Daniel.  You've proven that you simply can't handle being human.  I suggest you kill yourself right now to save yourself the trouble of being miserable for the rest of your insignificant fucking life.

 

Oh and "iprayican"?  You don't know anything, just like everyone else.  Get bent.

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I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth. Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

[BeccasStillSeeking]

 

I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth.  Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

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You're just incredible. You and those like you come in here to attack us for not clinging to your beliefs, and then you start whining when, as part and parcel of getting angry at you for your asshattery, some of us start to swear?

 

I will stop swearing when Christian visitors STOP the heartless, knee-jerk judging of us and show genuinely Christlike compassion and tolerance. When you lot are capable of dialogue without pedantic finger-wagging. When you open your minds enough to realize that the world is not going to end if you focus on treating people like human beings instead of attacking them for not believing in your god.

 

Until then, you hypocrites can suck my nonexistent cock. *smooches*

[crazy-tiger]

I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth.  Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

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Hmm...

 

We're in The Lion's Den, the rules state clearly that you should expect heated responses, and when in Rome...

 

 

 

 

Is it too much to ask you to have the manners not to request that we change to suit you?

[Checkmate]

I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth.  Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

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What if it IS too much to ask? What will you do? Leave? Quit? Run away from the godless heathen, tail safely tucked between your legs, because our WORDS damaged your precious eyes?

 

If your "god" is this fucking weak, then perhaps you've proven our point that "he" isn't fucking there.

 

Think about it. If you can't stand a few well chosen profanities, then how can you possibly endure TRUE suffering in the time of REAL trials?

 

Stay or leave. I don't give a fuck one way or the other.

[Mythra]

iprayican:

 

we, the unchurched, the unbelievers, the unsaved, the rejected of God, the hellbound heathens sometimes use profanity to give our statements a little extra punch. To place extra emphasis on particular points of interest.

 

Such as the addition of the word fucking inbetween Jesus and Christ. Gives it a little extra zip. Jesus Fucking Christ on a Crutch is also good. Or, as we've recently discovered Jesus' middle name, Jesus Harold Christ.

 

This isn't Sunday School at the local Presbyterian church.

 

We hold no reverence for the object of your undying devotion. And we won't tone a damn thing down to appease you or any other thumper who comes in here.

 

You need to learn to deal with this shit. Or, like grinch says, depart from our presence. Whatever.

[willybilly30]

iprayican

 

why dont you answer all the questions daniel wont and mabe we can can this debate started. this is the last time im gonna ask this question that seems too be ignored. PROOVE THE BIBLE IS FROM GOD. and just cause it says it is dont make it so. and tell umm what was his name. what a spirt is. since in your post too daniel you say you have all the answers.

[The Silent One]

I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth.  Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

 

Yes, it is. You're a guest here, that means you abide by our rules and habits, not the other way around. Frankly you should have expected it, coming into a forum called the Lion's Den.

 

Don't like it? You found your way in, you can find your way out.

[Skankboy]

I know that I am like everyone else who is honestly testing for truth. Is it too much to ask you to disagree without using such language?

 

Fuck no! No fucking problem at all! I can stop the motherfucking swearing any time I damn well feel like it...

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously, this IS the Lion's Den. While we do ask for a certain about of decorum in our other, more formal, debating section, it's not really appropriate to ask for it here.

 

Besides, if my honest questions had been ignored, brushed off or otherwise twisted to the degree that Daniel has, I would be a bit irate as well. I think you'll find that we tend to answer in kind. People here tend to be treated w/as much respect as they give...

 

IMOHO,

[Amethyst]

People here tend to be treated w/as much respect as they give...

 

Isn't that how life works in general, usually? Granted, there are a few exceptions, like the workplace, where you have to be polite to everyone. But what goes around comes around.

[Asuryan]

Jesus fucking Christ, you're still full of yourself.

 

Full of himself?

I thought that he was full of shit...

 

On second thought... wait a minute...

 

Both are true, ok, now I see.

[Asuryan]

You need to learn to deal with this shit. Or, like grinch says, depart from our presence.  Whatever.

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The only thing that annoys me is the fact that, granted, *if* she runs away from us, she will also scream around how all unbelievers are offensive, abusive, insulting, rude people without a minimum of style and/or culture, recurring to naughty words and blasphemies to cover their ignorance and so on.

 

Do you remember Chick tracts? When he wants to portrait someone that doesn't believe in christ, he just puts inside the balloons lots of "%£$&!" here and "$%%&£$" there to represent bad words. Nice stereotyping there.

 

IprayIcan, I for one am happy that, at least here, I can say something like "fucking jesus christ on a pogo stick" without anyone screaming and throwing a fit. Where I live, saying "fucking jesus" or even "damn jesus" or "damn god" or things like that, is against the *LAW*, so if I do that (no matter if I do that with just a couple of atheistic friends and someone else hears me from a distance) I can be put in *JAIL*.

In jail because I said something... "offensive"... against the catholic religion, which is dominant here. You have no idea about how relaxing is it to be able to curse and say blasphemies without the fear of being thrown up in jail. Childish? Could be. But then again I'm not hurting anyone with my childishness. Why should my words hurt you? They only represent my opinion on religion, does my opinion on religion, my atheism, hurt you?

 

Most of us are really nice people, who don't curse and utter blasphemies and insults at our friends or families, or even complete strangers that we've just met. As many people do, we act like that mainly when we're pissed off about something.

We're pissed off because of Daniel.

Get it now?

[Fweethawt]

You have to be well equipped for battle and I am not talking about a battle against my enemies to shame them or harm them, I am talking about a battle against doubt so they can know God again, in a more complete way than what they walked away from and you battle your own doubts hopefully to defeat them as well. 

 

I don't think you really understand what you're implying here, IPIC. You see, we like our doubts. We don't "battle" against them. Our doubts are exactly what makes us, us.

 

If we have doubts, to us, those doubts are the result of our questioning to a point where we couldn't come up with an honest answer. We simply set them (doubts) on the back burner until we're ready to think about them again instead of making up an answer.

 

An honest answer doesn't require the assertion of itself.

An honest answer just is.

Two honest people will usually come to the same conclusion if both of them are dealing with the same doubt.

 

 

 

So, you see, when your theology describes "doubt" as being "sin" and "foolishness", here in the real world, doubt is honesty mixed with a bit of courage.

[daniel_1012]

Dan, don't get discouraged.  You almost have to have been a skeptic in order to answer one, you have to at least think like one.  It's good to test yourself and try and reach others on a site like this if you have a firm understanding of the scriptures, and I'm not talking about our English translations, although that is helpful, you need a bare minimum of Greek and Hebrew, a working knowledge of ancient history, a passion for all the sciences, a heavy dose of logic, and an open mind to seeking the truth.  You have to be well equipped for battle and I am not talking about a battle against my enemies to shame them or harm them, I am talking about a battle against doubt so they can know God again, in a more complete way than what they walked away from and you battle your own doubts hopefully to defeat them as well. 

 

If you don't have these tools, you won't be able to break through their disbelief, you are going to get frustrated and walk away leaving them to think they were right all along doing even more damage or you are apt to become one of them.  These were former believers and something got in the way of their belief, real problems and issues that need to be resolved.  They are not your average Christian minds, they are real thinkers.  Real thinkers either end up like me cemented in faith or they end up die-hard skeptics because they didn't find answers and solutions to their problems.  Don't be afraid not to know an answer, search for it, God says He will help us find wisdom.  He hasn't let me down but it doesn't come into my brain like the apostles on the day of Penecost, it takes time and work and prayer.  Study to show yourself approved.  There are times in the midst of study that I have had something of a revelation, understanding something that was beyond my study, an inner revealing of something I didn't see before, and that experience is the God's Spirit guiding us. 

 

Trying to explain that experience to someone else is difficult, it is a knowing that has no explaination and I am NOT one of those that thinks the miraculous gifts of the Spirit during the early church are still received today.  What I have seen and heard of seem to be emotional experiences but they do not have the substance that the gifts descibed in the Bible have.  There are some gifts that will return near the time of the second coming, visions and prophesies, but nothing I have seen yet is like what the Bible describes.  I assume then that time is not yet upon us or I just don't know about them. The mind, body, spirit connection is a very difficult concept to grasp.  Psychologists know there is something more at work than just the snapses in the brain, some feel that there is another source of will and they aren't afraid to call that the spirit.  Others are searching for a biological explaination within the brain but they admit there appears to be something more than just the mind at work, they understand how people can attribute that to a spirit but they want to find some other physical explaination.  They can't measure the spirit except by examination of self experience, it's not showing up on their devices that can measure brain activity.  There is something more at work that can't be accounted for. 

 

A lot of people have the same problem believing there is a God, we can't see Him.  However, we can see the experience of God in others, we can see Him from self-examination, we can see Him in the universe He created, we can see Him in history, and we can see Him in Jesus' life.  There have been many times I have learned something from the skeptics, and that something went on to cause me to develop an even greater understanding of God's Word.  That is invaluable to me, I just don't want to do it at their expense, I am hoping that they get something out of it, too.  If nothing else, we will have a better understanding of each other. 

 

Asking a Christian like Dan not to use the scriptures is like asking a brain surgeon to not use his surgical tools.  Yes, there is logic and reason one can use to argue the existance of a God without the Bible, most of that is wrapped up in something like intelligent design and very few Christians bother to equip themselves with that knowledge.  However, if you really want to see a brain fixed, you have to use the tool, and that is the Bible.  You don't think my tool is sharp enough for the job, but it is, and it's going to take me a lot of work for you to see that and while I will discuss logic and reason and that application in scientific endeavors, I'm still gonna want to pick up my tools and get the job done.  For Christians the Bible is the authority and it is near impossible to not refer to it.  I have to get off here, I have tons of work to do.

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Well, even if you believe that, "visions and prophesies," those are both all of what I have claimed to have experienced. Right? Both of my examples were visions/prophecies. Nor am I a hyper-spirtualist. Never spoken in tongues, but I don't discredit it... I believe it is a legitimate gift, though not one I exhibit.

 

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. I believe additional tools are helpful, but it is still the Word of God that will be the determining factor in a person's salvation. Apolgetics I like. Additional knowledge I like too. However, I don't think someone being a super thinker or not being a super thinker is what converts a person. Like you said... to you, it cemented you as a Christian... for them, it turned them away. Just as Serinity said, your tools don't seem to help convert anyone here either (I mean no offense by this, I'm just pointing out). Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

[daniel_1012]

Sorry that I keep forgetting to delete full quotations... I'm trying to remember to delete first, or hedge what I don't want.

[daniel_1012]

Daniel, if someone gave a similiar testimony as yours for God, only theirs was proof of Zeus, Allah, Zoroaster, etc. what would you say to them?  Would you say that they were lying or misleading you, perhaps adding a little extra "evidence" in support of their god?  Can you see that we see your god as you do others?  Can you or not?  If so, then why are you so cold and callous and why are you still here?

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I would have to wait to hear that testimony...

[willybilly30]

daniel says "faith comes by hearing the word of god?"

 

 

well anyone here turned christian yet?

 

according to the bible if you hear the word of god youll have faith in it.

 

 

so what is the bible a spell book? and the verses are some form of spell thatll turn people christian?

 

weve all read the bible and were raised christian if you read the testimony section youll see about 90% of us heard the word of your bible god.

 

and we no longer have tha faith.

 

so the bible dont work and is a lie.

 

and i just got an answer too the question you never answer

 

can you proove the bibles from god?

 

it isnt from god cause if was it would do as it says it would do.

[Guest Guest]

I would have to wait to hear that testimony...

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Daniel, can't you for once just answer a question? If it was WRITTEN just like yours (except insert another god), does that help? You want us to take your testimony at face value yet you are unwilling to do the same for others of another religion, do you not see the hypocrisy? Do you not see the hypocrisy that if you would absolutely not accept someone else's proofs for staying true to their god, that it is wrong for you to make accusations against us for doing so to you? Do you not see that, Danny?

[Vigile]

Where I live, saying "fucking jesus" or even "damn jesus" or "damn god" or things like that, is against the *LAW*,

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What about "porco dio?"

 

Oh Madonna...

 

[Asuryan]

What about "porco dio?"

 

Oh Madonna...

 

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Especially that one

 

In fact, we have lots of reality shows here, one of them is the standard big brother kind of reality, with guys closed inside a house with almost no contact with the outside.

Twice by now a participant has been kicked out (no reprimanding or penalities, just straight kicking out of the contest) because of uttering a single blasphemy. Telling other participants to fuck off, insulting them, calling them assholes etc. is accepted. But if one says something about god, even just ONCE... BAM it's out of the game, with newspapers screaming about morals and respect and so on.

 

Sick.

[Vigile]

Especially that one

 

In fact, we have lots of reality shows here, one of them is the standard big brother kind of reality, with guys closed inside a house with almost no contact with the outside.

Twice by now a participant has been kicked out (no reprimanding or penalities, just straight kicking out of the contest) because of uttering a single blasphemy. Telling other participants to fuck off, insulting them, calling them assholes etc. is accepted. But if one says something about god, even just ONCE... BAM it's out of the game, with newspapers screaming about morals and respect and so on.

 

Sick.

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You Italians crack me up

 

When I lived there my roommates would make jokes about the Pope, say bad things about the church, etc..., but when I would say something equally as bad, they would be shocked and offended. It wasn't correct for me, an outsider, to criticize the "holy church." None of them really believed in religion; not really.

 

But then one roommate was a fascist - we called him Fascio. He would utter "Porco Dio!" with every sentance. He was very funny. He also drank cheap wine (4 liters for L2000), which was the greatest sin of all.

 

We have those reality shows here in Russia as well. I think the American Big Brother virus has spread and corrupted the world. The one here, Dom II (House II), is mind-numbingly stupid. If I watched I would have to put a fork in my eye to ease the pain.

[iprayican]

I apologize to you Daniel. You are right, people have to hear the Word of God in order to develop faith. All of my evidences will mean nothing unless they hear it and what I say in nothing in comparision to the Living Word of God. When Jesus spoke to people on several occasions there were those that outright rejected what they heard. There is nothing wrong with having doubts, the doubts become less as you search and find enough evidence to believe and what you can't confirm; that is called faith. You can't have faith without some belief and you can't have belief without some proof. I am trying to provide a look at that proof but just as Jesus had people reject Him, I have little doubt that regardless of the proof I can provide there are some that would still reject Him. There is no way either of us is going to stop referring to the Bible, it is what we are defending afterall, isn't it?

 

I think I provided more than enough information on what a spirit, just go back and read the five articles and the two long posts after that instead of priding yourself on being so obnoxious. I can't prove it to you beyond that, I explained the only way to do that is to die and come back which I can't do, my Grandmother did, others that have had simular experiences, people that Christ raised from the dead and the people that the prophet raised from the dead, people witnessed seeing those that had died come back, and Christ came back and witnessed it to us also; so I believe there is truth to what the Bible says about life continuing in the spirit after a physical death. Yes, those events are described in my Bible, and with the exception of my Grandmother's experience, I have to take the people who wrote it as speaking the truth. Why?

 

Why do I believe the Bible is true, even those things I can't prove? Because I have tested it enough in the things I can find proof to take all of it, even those things I can't confirm, as truth; that is called faith. If God came down and made you believe, if that is even possible, you could always say it was your imagination, if you believed; IT WOULD NO LONGER REQUIRE FAITH OR FREE CHOICE. Do you really think you could reject GOD if he came face to face with you? You would not have free choice anymore, you would chose because you had no choice; to do otherwise would make you an idiot; unless you were like Satan and rejected him anyway because you wanted to be the center of your life, and not worship your creator. Frankly, I think there are people who would really make that same choice even in the face of meeting God and have said so.

 

For that reason there is a fine line that God has walked in showing us enough to believe and also enough to reject Him despite that belief. He doesn't want puppets or he would have created us that way to begin with. He wants people who really love him, not people who follow him because they have no choice. You don't want him to give you room for a choice. That's too bad, it isn't going to happen, it's not His plan. He is sorting out those who want to have a relationship with him from those who would only have a relationship if they have no other choice and those that would reject him anyway, just like Satan and his followers did.

 

I told you that I believe the Bible is the Word of God because of three things, first one is that the evidences in study can be shown to be true by examining it through the lens of the sciences, history, and literary analysis, etc. and it is without contradiction in the original langauges it was written -every translation has problems as is the case anytime you try and convert a written doccument in one langage into another language - they don't mesh; what we have is pretty good but there are problems that can occur when you make copies and translate, second the truth in it works, and third my personal relationship with God.

 

I didn't expect you to take my word on it and I started the inerrancy thread as a starting point to work on proving it and I spent a lot of time here trying to defend another Christian and share what I thought when I could have been working on it. Since I have a choice of where I talk to you and apparently if one stays in the Lion's Den you are without question treated rudely, I think I'll stay in the other thread. It's not much better but I'll take it. I would suggest the same to you Daniel. People were thrown into the Lion's Den against their will, they didn't just sign up for it like us. They were thrown in there for refusing to reject Christ, but actually these people aren't trying to force that on us, we are here as "guests." or maybe "dinner" is a better comparison.

 

Of course, the whole theme of this site is centered around doing battle with Christians or the Christian faith, one has only to look at the titles and that is another reason I started the inerrancy thread with the tone that I did in keeping with your theme, but for that I was told off, so although we are here as guests, we are not allowed to join in the same spirit of the game as they do. The Word of God is powerful, Satan doesn't like it quoted, Jesus turned Satan away when he used scriptures against him, so it makes sense that the people that Satan has trapped don't want us doing the same.

 

It seems we are in no position to make demands of even politeness, one would expect such seeing as we are considered the sport or prey and if we make them too uncomfortable, we will just get thrown off. I'm sticking in here for now, let's see if they can stomach us!

[Asuryan]

You Italians crack me up 

We crack me up too (wow, this sentence sure sounds strange!)

 

When I lived there my roommates would make jokes about the Pope, say bad things about the church, etc..., but when I would say something equally as bad, they would be shocked and offended.  It wasn't correct for me, an outsider, to criticize the "holy church."  None of them really believed in religion; not really.

It's a rather common thing. Almost all of Italy doesn't really believe in catholicism, they have a rather hazy idea of an afterlife over the clouds, flying around with angel wings, or an afterlife with fire everywhere and an ugly devil with horns and a pitchfork... but keeps going on, participating to mass, sending children to baptism and communion and sunday school and whatsoever because of tradition. Which is the saddest thing, really.

 

Tradition is the main reason christianity still exists in italy.

 

About what happened to you, I think that the underlying mentality was something like that:

WE can talk about the pope and church and laugh and make fun of it, but you can, because we know we're joking but when YOU laugh and make fun of it it's almost a bit too dangerously close to NOT joking and remarking real flaws.

 

But then one roommate was a fascist - we called him Fascio.  He would utter "Porco Dio!" with every sentance.  He was very funny.  He also drank cheap wine (4 liters for L2000), which was the greatest sin of all. 

 

Another fine example of our italian contradictions

Fascists have always been very close to the church, having common interests with it. Mussolini was a faithful servant of the Pope. So a blasphemous fascist is a contradiction in terms.

I agree that 4 liters of wine for L2000 means that he was drinking grapefruit pelts and scum floating in piss. That is two sins in one, a sin against good wine and a sin against himself (was he trying to commit suicide with that stuff?)