Why christianity still exists...

[MQTA]

I had a weird recurring dream as a young child (around the age of 5 or so).  I kept dreaming about a car wreck and I kept seeing a lady with dark hair.  It could've been absorbed from a TV show or something, I suppose.  Who knows?

 

If anyone in my family had asked me, my mother would've probably said it was "Satan's work" anyway, and that would have been the end of it.

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I had recurring dream nightmares too, until returning home from a trip to Florida when I was just 10. I went alone, stayed with cousins who got me on the other side. But I traced them back to when I was 2-4 yrs old at a bungelow colony, shadows during sunrise spooked me, but good.

 

When I got back from Florida, I had met these 3 girls that left a lasting impression, apparently, cause I'm just remembering them now, their names, can see their faces. Wow. Cool. Strange memory I have, things trigger shit from the 60s on and I everything about it comes flooding back.

 

I started to learn to control my dreams, by going on adventures with those 3 girls. LOL. When I was in 5th grade I even wrote a story about it/them and gave it to my teacher. He kinda told me good, but don't quit my day job. LOL

 

That's pretty much all I can remember from back then, but this Titanic shit spooks me for some reason. I avoided watching the movie until well after it was out on tape. I don't know what it is, but something aborbed me into it.. rented A Night to Remember and watched that, pickedup some of the books, including the book of A Night to Remember. Something about that gets to me. Maybe I was a passenger on it. Surely not 1st class, I'm sure I went down with the ship. OH! Maybe that's why my age 4 and age 10 water experiences were so powerful! OH man! Never made THAT connection before.

 

Or maybe the age 4 and age 10 experiences are why the Titanic story gets to me. But I don't think so, I think it's the other way. Very interesting stuff to ponder.

 

[Amethyst]

That's pretty much all I can remember from back then, but this Titanic shit spooks me for some reason. I avoided watching the movie until well after it was out on tape. I don't know what it is, but something aborbed me into it.. rented A Night to Remember and watched that, pickedup some of the books, including the book of A Night to Remember. Something about that gets to me. Maybe I was a passenger on it. Surely not 1st class, I'm sure I went down with the ship.  OH! Maybe that's why my age 4 and age 10 water experiences were so powerful! OH man! Never made THAT connection before.

 

Or maybe the age 4 and age 10 experiences are why the Titanic story gets to me. But I don't think so, I think it's the other way. Very interesting stuff to ponder.

 

Anything's possible. I don't discount reincarnation entirely. But I refuse to get involved with anything resembling a cult, no matter how popular it is.

[iprayican]

Ok, iprayican. I read your link. All FIVE pages. Of course, since I was a christian for an awfully long time, there wasn't too much there I hadn't heard before. But I would like you to notice an important difference between the two articles. In your link, they point to scriptures in the bible over and over again, as if this "proves" something. It doesn't prove anything, except for the fact that a certain phrase or concept is present in the writings of the bible.

 

To someone who doesn't accept the bible as the "word of God", quoting it is no more authoritative than quoting the Quran or the Illiad, or the National Enquirer, for that matter. Compare that with the brilliant mind of Clarence Darrow, who used his brain and reason and rationality to write his piece on the soul.

 

And to someone who doesn't agree with the supposed "brilliance" of Clarence Darrow, whose words have had no where near the impact as the Bible, nor been tested even a fraction of a precentage as much as the books in the Bible, and certainly not anywhere near authoritative, doesn't prove anything either except that you share his opinion.

 

Now, from a not-so-brilliant mind, just a couple of observations about your link.

 

"the idea of the soul is used to refer to the varied emotions or inner thoughts of a man" What do emotions have to do with a "soul"? Do animals have souls? Because they most certainly have emotions. Their emotions are not as developed as ours, because their brains aren't as developed as ours. But animals are perfectly capable of being happy, angry, sad, bored, lonely, frustrated, and they exhibit plenty of other emotions, too.

 

The article showed many, many uses of the words spirit and soul in the scriptures and that their meaning must be determined from context with the dictates of the language. In the context of use of the word soul you are asking about, yes, animals have a "soul", they have an awareness of thier existance, even plants have a kind of awareness and respond to their environment. Mankind also has this context of the word soul which is the mind, an intelligence, an ability to function in and control the body that is centered in the brain. Separate from this is a spirit that resides in the body but can be separated from it. John left his body in the spirit when God revealed Revelations to him. We are told our spirits also separate from our bodies in death. From what I can find in the scriptures, animals do not have a spirit.

 

"Death, mortality, corruptibility, decay, are never affirmed of the spirit. It is, in the nature of the case, impossible for a spirit to die." This is nothing more than the author's beliefs, that stem from his faith. You can't tell a person who does not believe in such thing as a spirit that it is impossible for a spirit to die. I say that it is impossible for a spirit to be. We are who we are because of the organ inside of our heads. An organ that will cease to exist someday.

 

That is your opinion. Neither of us can prove without a doubt we are right. I have the writers of the Bible which claims inspiration from God that make a claim there is a spirit that I cannot prove beyond the experience of the writers, you have the opinions of writers that do not believe in God.

 

 

"When does a man receive his immortal nature? When James observed that the "body apart from the spirit is dead" (2:26) the corollary automatically inherent in his statement became the fact that if the body is living, then the spirit must be present. Since at each stage of its development the zygote/embryo/fetus is living, it must have had a soul/spirit instilled at conception. No other view is in accord with both the biblical and scientific evidence."

 

Man, oh man. Now we're really getting out there. Because a fetus is alive, it has a spirit. Proved by biblical and scientific evidence? Puh-leeeze. Since you can't prove that a human has a spirit, how on earth you gonna prove a fetus has a spirit? And just exactly when do you think that spirit entered into the fetus? The instant the little dude with the tail found the egg? You can't really believe this nonsense. And to say that it agrees with scientific evidence is beyond silly.

 

A fetus is just a stage of development of a human life no different than a newborn is a stage or a toddler or an adult. Human life begins at conception otherwise why would we as humans be so concerned about conceiving or not, it is at conception that we have something to rejoice in, or for some, to dread, it is a life. If it wasn't life, instead of all those abortions, one could just ignore it. The scriptures refer life as starting at conception, science also shows life starts at conception. The scriptures refers to the body apart from the spirit as dead, therefore if life begins at conception, the spirit must be present at conception. Science cannot observe the spirit so it is beyond scientific evidence but I don't believe that was the point of the author, he was merely using the logic of when life begins according to scripture and also observed in science and then applying what we know of the spirit from scriptures.

 

"if everything ultimately springs from natural causes, and this life is all there is, what would it matter how man acts? If he is merely the last in a long chain of evolutionary accidents, why should his conduct be of any concern at all?

 

I don't really understand this argument. There are plenty of reasons to stay within accepted bounds of behavior apart from a desire to obey God. Most of these are instilled in us as we are developing. Play fair. Share your toys. Don't hit. Don't lie.

 

If a person were raised by an ogre of a parent, who abused them and lied and hurt them, they probably get instilled the idea that it's okay to do such things.

 

I don't see where the concept of a soul and God are necessary to define right and wrong. We believe that we shouldn't do things to other people that we wouldn't want done to us. It's instilled in us through our societal mores.

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There are scientists and philosophers who have asked this question in the far past and are still asking this question? They are seeking the roots of morality and many look at the evolution of civilization for answers and have a difficult time understanding what they find, and of course, very few of them agree with each others theories. From what I can find in scriptures God has placed a knowledge of right and wrong in us and a free will to make choices and I observe this ability in humanity. Even little children have a sense of justice. It is not dependent on a belief in Him. It is influenced by our environment. I believe there are good people who do not know God but that any goodness comes from God whether they want to give him the credit for hardwiring that knowledge into us or not. He gave us the law so that we would know for sure what is right and wrong in specific matters, but he also said by nature those without the law are a law unto themselves.

[iprayican]

“If it is not certain that death ends personal identity and memory, then almost nothing that man accepts as true is susceptible to proof.”

 

1. There is only one that has come back as a witness to show that there is life after death. It is a proof in itself for belief but there are also the communications of God to man since the beginning of humanity. There are some scientific studies that feel there are evidences of something beyond the physical, while not understood, that have manifested themselves enough in the physical that they are open to examination and interpretation. If one rejects the proof of God’s communication and Jesus, God in the flesh, then there can be no certainty and one must die first to know for sure; for believers, this is where faith steps in. Faith is not blind in that it believes in something that has no substance but faith is a belief in something we cannot see. We have evidences that have been tested as valid and accurate that point us in the direction of what we believe on faith because, yes, we must die first in order to confirm completely what we believe. We could get into a long discussion on Biblical inerrancy, historical, literature, or creation and intelligent design scientific evidences and the life of Jesus at this point and why I began the other thread on inerrancy of which I expect will take at least a year to cover the basics. I see that verifying those evidences as accurate and trustworthy are the biggest roadblocks non-believers have in developing faith.

 

“But if I am told that next week I shall start on a trip to Goofville; that I shall not take my body with me; that I shall stay for all eternity: can I find a single fact connected with my journey -- the way I shall go, the time of the journey, the country I shall reach, its location in space, the way I shall live there -- or anything that would lead to a rational belief that I shall really make the trip? Have I ever known anyone who has made the journey and returned? If I am really to believe, I must try to get some information about all these important facts.”

 

2. I would offer the life of Jesus, God the Son, His death, burial, and resurrection, and His walk on the earth thereafter to many witnesses as a fact with many evidences in support that He is all that He claimed. I would also offer the many books written and claimed to be the Word of a creator as proof of many things regarding the nature of our being both spiritual and physical, of our creator, His creation and His plan for His creation. While there are masses who choose to believe based on basic knowledge of the Bible, there are many of us who have chosen to examine its truths to the fullest extent of our ability from every angle of proof possible, scientifically in every branch of science that we know, historically through the examination of things like language, literature, archaeology, and culture, and we do not come up lacking, we come up amazed that it is exactly what it claims to be, the Word of a God. Others attempt to reject it by the same evidences, but in the end there is no explanation that can show otherwise without any doubts on either side of the coin.

 

Faith is not without doubts, it is a journey of experience. You take a few steps in the direction of faith and as you go you find more of what you believe is true. Faith is not a feeling of emotion, a spiritual high, or knowledge by itself, knowledge by itself has no need of faith, but faith has substance or a foundation to support something that cannot be seen. You can see and feel the foundation but you have to believe the invisible house on it is there because the foundation you tested proclaimed that the house exists also. The scriptures teach us that there is a spiritual world that we cannot always see, part of that is in ourselves, in our own spirit. Some were given the ability to see the spiritual at times and recorded what they saw. A man running a marathon runs because he wants to accomplish something, his body and mind scream out to him to stop, but his spirit pushes him on. He has a will that is separate from the mind and body that preempts control. The spirit guides the mind (which is part of the body-a function of the brain) and body, but the mind and body are flesh and have weaknesses that the spirit cannot always overcome such as someone suffering from a disorder or disease.

 

The author may be consider a brilliant man by some but brilliance in not found only on one side of this question, others are equally as compelling in their thoughts have come to a different conclusion. In the end, it is a choice, a choice to examine the evidence of the universe, to examine the evidence of our own minds, to examine the evidence of what others have left behind and then our own decision about how this all came to be. If we are made in the image of God, His spiritual image, and this image is imprinted on our spirit, an immortal spirit that lives beyond the physical shell it is housed in presently, then we have proof enough within ourselves, a proof one can share with others but cannot prove to others.

 

If we reject that we are more than the physical, if we reject there is a God, then God says we are in denial and in spite of the evidence in us and around us, “without excuse.” God says that even someone without His law can know there is a God and that every man knows what good is. He put that knowledge in us. Goodness is not there by accident. If that person who recognizes there is a God seeks Him, God says he will find Him. Proverbs 2:3-5 says that “Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding, If thous seekest her as silver and searchest for her as hidden treasures, Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.”

 

One can convince oneself of just about anything one sets their minds to accept, and there is also what some would call indoctrination or brainwashing which can mold a mind to believe one way or another, but you must also accept these abilities are not exclusive only to those that believe differently than oneself. Each must prove to themselves that what they believe is true.

 

We can surround ourselves with others that think the way we do so that we can agree with each other and receive confirmation bias and we can subject ourselves to those that disagree with us in pursuit of testing that what we believe is true. For those that are honest in pursuit of truth, it is a journey of a restless soul on a path that never ends until the last breath, and for believers, we have faith that the last breath sets us on a path of the next journey. At some point along the way we become more sure of what we believe because of what we have examined or experienced. We may develop faith in what we cannot completely be sure of because of what portion we found in evidences surrounding a truth that we believe are sufficient to confirm the rest of it as potentially true also.

 

Some say there is no God, it is all imagination in the mind of man. How can you know that statement is true? It comes from the mind of a man who has looked at the question and found evidences he believes support his belief. The statement is made up of symbols that make words that have meanings perhaps encoded on a computer that is made up of parts made by a man from the elements of the earth plugged into an energy source in our universe. Everything from the thought of the man to the energy source is real, it exists as evidence and can be examined but how do we know the statement is true anymore than we can know that what we find in the Bible is not true? If you believe what the Bible says, what is written there is not from the mind of man but from the mind of God, its words are evidence to be examined. Errors you say, science you say, history you say, but I can show you there are no errors; there are misunderstood passages, there are translation and copy errors by the hand of well intentioned or not so well intentioned men that we have knowledge of, but in the original language of what was written there are no contradictions and all of what we can see and understand of ourselves and science and history does support what is told within it.

 

In the end we have two minds that have come to different conclusions based on the same evidences. Which is true? You can call me narrow-minded but I have searched no differently than you. I believe I have the truth and if I do, I know that there is only one way for you to avoid the consequences of judgement when the creator decides to put a stop to this present existence. For me, you are in a burning house, and I am the firefighter, I know the way out to safety. I care enough about you to come in after you and ask you to follow me out, but you stand there with ashes and timbers burning around you telling me how foolish I am, how narrow-minded I am, how ignorant I am that I would bother to save you. You say the burning house is not real, it is all in my imagination, it’s not true. But what if it is true? I suppose we won’t know for sure until the last breath, but in the mean time if what I believe is true, and part of that truth is to show love to others and to tell them of this truth, even my enemies, I have to run into those burning houses.

 

If I have doubts that it is true, but can find enough truth in it that works, then what do I have to lose in having faith in that which I cannot confirm? Yes, I must answer to the standards of a God, but if everyone truly lived those standards of loving others as oneself, there would be peace and happiness, it works. This man has many questions, some of them have answers in God’s Word, some don’t have answers, God didn’t tell us everything. Most of us can manufacture all kinds of elaborate rebuttals, excuses and counter-arguments to explain something away even when faced with outright truth. Pharaoh didn’t believe, the Israelites soon lost belief, the prophets were explained away, Jesus was rejected. God showed himself in direct physical ways to mankind throughout the ages, even coming down and living with us, but still the majority of people explained it away and rejected Him face to face, miracles and all. God was not what they expected, He was not what they had asked for, He was not what they thought they needed, they wanted God in their image. From the beginning God made it a part of His plan that we would have to trust and have faith without understanding. Why? God says although man seeks it, no man can understand all His ways. How can we demand that in order to believe that we must completely understand God when we are no where near even understanding ourselves or the universe He created?

 

“If man has a soul that persists after death, that goes to a heaven of the blessed or to a hell of the damned, where are these places? It is not so easily imagined as it once was. How does the soul make its journey? What does immortal man find when he gets there, and how will he live after he reaches the end of endless space? We know that the atmosphere will be absent; that there will be no light, no heat -- only the infinite reaches of darkness and frigidity.”

 

3. We don’t know, we have guessed at these questions and explored as far as we can for now but we have by no means exhausted that exploration or found the answers to these questions. I doubt God intended for us to find Him by spaceship. We do not know what is necessary to support the life of a spiritual being outside of a physical body, but we do know that God, if you believe Him, would be more than capable of taking care of those needs and He tells us He will. We know enough from God’s Word in talking of angels and spirits that the spirit is not bound by the same physical needs or limitations of a physical body. There is a story of a worm that hatched inside a growing nut and as he looked around and explored his nut, he stopped and proudly proclaimed himself king of all the world.”

 

“Two thousand years ago, in Palestine, little was known of man, of the earth, or of the universe. It was then currently believed that the earth was only four thousand years old, that life had begun anew after the deluge about two thousand years before, and that the entire earth was soon to be destroyed. Today it is fairly well established that man has been upon the earth for a million years. During that long stretch of time the world has changed many times; it is changing every moment. At least three of four ice ages have swept across continents, driving death before them, carrying human beings into the sea or burying them deep in the earth. Animals have fed on man and on each other. Every dead body, no matter whether consumed by fire or buried in the earth, has been resolved into its elements, so that the matter and energy that once formed human beings has fed animals and plants and other men. As the great naturalist, Fabre, has said:  At the banquet of life each is in turn a guest and a dish.  Thus the body of every man now living is in part made from the bodies of those who have been dead for ages.”

And if I am to be resurrected, what particular I shall be called from the grave, from the animals and plants and the bodies of other men who shall inherit this body I now call my own? My body has been made over and over, piece by piece, as the days went by, and will continue to be so made until the end. It has changed so slowly that each new cell is fitted into the living part, and will go on changing until the final crisis comes. Is it the child in the mother's womb or the tottering frame of the old man that shall be brought back? The mere thought of such a resurrection beggars reason, ignores facts, and enthrones blind faith, wild dreams, hopeless hopes, and cowardly fears as sovereign of the human mind.”

 

4. It is not fairly established that man has been upon the earth for millions of years by any means. The raging debates have existed and will continue on the methods God used to create or creation verses a godless version of evolution. Not knowing how God is going to do something does not mean that it is impossible. There are probably unique identifiers beyond DNA that we have not even begun to imagine exist that we may never have the ability to discern that a creator would think of as child’s play. Besides that, where does it say that every single particle of our former body has to be used in this resurrection of our physical body? We already have great knowledge of what can be done with a single cell or even just a part of a single cell. Change is not a problem, we are also told that this new body we are promised is said to be changed from the former.

 

My grandmother died on the operating table about six months ago and while they were busy trying to revive her, she described how she left her body, she could see and hear them working on her arguing over who was going to tell her kids she had died and other things and saw objects in the room that she had not seen while alive and conscious which she relayed to them afterwards and they were amazed. Not only that, but she was taken through a door into a brightly lit hallway and a voice behind her described what she saw. There are more details but she went on a tour where she saw containers that held spirits of those who didn’t believe. From there she was taken to a place where they stored hills of dirt that was said to be from the bodies of the dead. After that she was taken to another place and shown where she would stay and rest when she came back again, it was a place more beautiful than anything she had seen before. Then she was brought back to the room where they were still working on her body. She said she didn’t want to come back, but the voice told her it was not her time yet and she felt an enormous energizing force pushing her back into her body. I know people would like to explain her experience away. She doesn’t know why she was brought back, but she is telling her story to whoever will listen. I have a friend whose father died and the night of his death she had a vivid dream that he called her, telling her that they were not normaly allowed to make contact but he had to let her know he was ok. He described the place where he was and it sounded exactly like my grandmother. These instances took place years and thousands of miles apart. Some common biological thread, perhaps, but then again, it could be an experience of the spirit. Regardless, it is evidence of an experience that can be examined and interpreted, you one way based on a dis-belief in God, me another based on a belief in God.

 

“The afflicted cling to life because they doubt their faith, and do not wish to let go of what they have, terrible as it is.”

 

5. I have not been present when non-Christians have died, but I have been in the presence of several that were Christians. They each died a peaceful death, not peaceful in that they were struggling physically as their hearts and lungs began to work slower and slower, the body is programmed to cling to life; to survive by any means it can, the bodies auto-responses are not something we are necessarily in control of, but peaceful in that they had said they did not fear death. They were not afraid to meet God, some of them were afraid of how loved ones would be able to go on without them, some of them expressed that they didn’t want to be a burden to their loved ones but they all desired to be rid of the dying body with all its struggle and pain, some of them seemed to be able to hold off death until they were able to tell a loved one on the way there goodbye and once said, they left us. They had faith that they would see us again. They told us not to be afraid.

 

This took a chunk of my time to respond. I will check your responses and maybe I'll respond again but I just don't have the time for both threads. I didn't want to leave a fellow Christian to fend off the lions by himself.

[All Gods Fail]

They were not afraid to meet God, some of them were afraid of how loved ones would be able to go on without them, some of them expressed that they didn’t want to be a burden to their loved ones but they all desired to be rid of the dying body with all its struggle and pain, some of them seemed to be able to hold off death until they were able to tell a loved one on the way there goodbye and once said, they left us. They had faith that they would see us again. They told us not to be afraid.

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That's pretty much how people die, all over the world. They are not afraid to meet Allah, or know they will be reincarnated, or whatever religious beliefs they hold. And many people hate the idea of being a burden to their loved ones due to their condition.

 

I read of a study done several years ago about the phenomena of many elderly Chinese women always passing away just after a certain holiday (can't remember the name of it). Anyway, this particular holiday involved the elderly matriarchs of the families and they were featured in some of the festivities.

 

Long story short - it wasn't the stress of the holiday killing them, as was originally believed. They were simply holding on past their time so as not to disrupt the celebrations and have one last happy moment with their loved ones.

 

None of them were xtians, of course.

[daniel_1012]

You've lied your last, liar.  You're openly dodging questions and refusing to actually debate.  That's troll behavior, Danny boy, and not tolerated here.

 

You're finished on this site.

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Are you so intimidated by me? Don't ask me to prove what the Bible says is folly to the unbeliever. How do you expect I prove that you have a spirit? I'm not going to convince you of this over and over. No thanks.

[The Silent One]

Are you so intimidated by me?  Don't ask me to prove what the Bible says is folly to the unbeliever.  How do you expect I prove that you have a spirit?  I'm not going to convince you of this over and over.  No thanks.

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You haven't convinced ANYONE, because you haven't proven a goddess blessed thing. You just keep claiming you have and refusing to show us when, where and how.

 

You're a:

 

[Mr. Neil]

Are you so intimidated by me?  Don't ask me to prove what the Bible says is folly to the unbeliever.  How do you expect I prove that you have a spirit?  I'm not going to convince you of this over and over.  No thanks.

But Daniel. I haven't asked you to prove that spirits exist. I asked you what a spirit was.

 

I also asked you how your so-called "experience" can be differentiated from any other common delusion.

[MQTA]

Anything's possible.  I don't discount reincarnation entirely.  But I refuse to get involved with anything resembling a cult, no matter how popular it is.

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Yeah, I prefer my independance. There's nothing I can subscribe to 100%, I just learn from the best and the worst examples and don't need any labels.

[Mythra]

       

2.  I would offer the life of Jesus, God the Son, His death, burial, and resurrection, and His walk on the earth thereafter to many witnesses as a fact with many evidences in support that He is all that He claimed. 

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You mean the Jesus who descended into hell, then came back and first showed himself to the disciples - where was that? A mountaintop in Galilee? A room in Jerusalem? sorry. I get confused.

 

And then, he BODILY flies up into the air and out of sight while lots of people are watching.

 

And you believe this stuff.

 

Until you show some kind of convincing evidence that Jesus ever lived, (and I can make a pretty good argument to the contrary) you'll have a really hard time convincing anyone that he resurrected.

[Vulgaris Prime]

Are you so intimidated by me?

 

Jesus fucking Christ, you're full of yourself. Isn't that kind of pride supposed to be a sin, Danny boy?

 

  Don't ask me to prove what the Bible says is folly to the unbeliever.  How do you expect I prove that you have a spirit?  I'm not going to convince you of this over and over.  No thanks.

 

You haven't done anything "over and over" but LIE LIE LIE! You haven't proven anything, you never will, and you're just coming up with excuses so you don't have to.

 

[Asuryan]

Are you so intimidated by me?

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Daniel, seriously. Please. Show us that you are a real person instead of an empty puppet reciting the words you've learned by heart.

It's not that we are intimidated by you, it's just that you are a *guest* here, and you are completely ignoring what we say and we share with you.

There are people here, real people and not "heathens" or "apostates" or whatsoever, real people that took the pain of answering you a lot of times, trying to explain to you why we don't believe in jesus, why we don't believe in the bible as a reliable source of informations, why we don't need your god in our life, and everytime instead of talking with as a civil human being you just dodged our argomentations and explanations and points of view and threw at us some scripture verse... thus insulting us twice: the first time ignoring our words, the second time throwing scriptures at us AFTER we told you the why's and how's we don't care for scriptures.

 

And after you acted like this, lots of people kept talking with you and trying to make you understand. We turned the other cheek to you, hoping that you would've learned. You haven't.

This is another attempt at cheekturning from me. Please. Start addressing the issues that are made by people talking with you, as you would do with a person IRL. Almost everybody considers you a troll by now, but it's not too late to show us that you can use your brain and actually do some talking instead of quoting.

 

Mind you, if you answer this post by quoting again, I'll join the army of the pissed off exchristians that simply stopped heeding your words.

 

<after editing> person. Not people. Person is singular, people is plural. *hits herself in the head to better remember*

[♦ nivek ♦]

daniel_1012

 

Pay attention to this post Dan. You have managed to do a slick job of dodging every direct question sent your way. You have refused to take head on your own postulations, senarios and statements.

 

In that process you have managed to raise the ire of myself, Dave's 100 Pound Solution to Single Nail Problems. If you don't care to feel the wonderful sensation of being e.Hammered, take some time to consider your next post and answer here at ExChristian dot net.

 

I don't care to huck and toss folks out the front door of the House, however for folks who want to be coy, waste time and take up server space I will make that dire exception.

 

Instead of trying to evangelize with your quaintly odd style, try finding the time to answer Question A with Answer A instead of the various piles of mush and bullshit that have come from your keyboard.

 

kevinL.

[iprayican]

Dan, don't get discouraged. You almost have to have been a skeptic in order to answer one, you have to at least think like one. It's good to test yourself and try and reach others on a site like this if you have a firm understanding of the scriptures, and I'm not talking about our English translations, although that is helpful, you need a bare minimum of Greek and Hebrew, a working knowledge of ancient history, a passion for all the sciences, a heavy dose of logic, and an open mind to seeking the truth. You have to be well equipped for battle and I am not talking about a battle against my enemies to shame them or harm them, I am talking about a battle against doubt so they can know God again, in a more complete way than what they walked away from and you battle your own doubts hopefully to defeat them as well.

 

If you don't have these tools, you won't be able to break through their disbelief, you are going to get frustrated and walk away leaving them to think they were right all along doing even more damage or you are apt to become one of them. These were former believers and something got in the way of their belief, real problems and issues that need to be resolved. They are not your average Christian minds, they are real thinkers. Real thinkers either end up like me cemented in faith or they end up die-hard skeptics because they didn't find answers and solutions to their problems. Don't be afraid not to know an answer, search for it, God says He will help us find wisdom. He hasn't let me down but it doesn't come into my brain like the apostles on the day of Penecost, it takes time and work and prayer. Study to show yourself approved. There are times in the midst of study that I have had something of a revelation, understanding something that was beyond my study, an inner revealing of something I didn't see before, and that experience is the God's Spirit guiding us.

 

Trying to explain that experience to someone else is difficult, it is a knowing that has no explaination and I am NOT one of those that thinks the miraculous gifts of the Spirit during the early church are still received today. What I have seen and heard of seem to be emotional experiences but they do not have the substance that the gifts descibed in the Bible have. There are some gifts that will return near the time of the second coming, visions and prophesies, but nothing I have seen yet is like what the Bible describes. I assume then that time is not yet upon us or I just don't know about them. The mind, body, spirit connection is a very difficult concept to grasp. Psychologists know there is something more at work than just the snapses in the brain, some feel that there is another source of will and they aren't afraid to call that the spirit. Others are searching for a biological explaination within the brain but they admit there appears to be something more than just the mind at work, they understand how people can attribute that to a spirit but they want to find some other physical explaination. They can't measure the spirit except by examination of self experience, it's not showing up on their devices that can measure brain activity. There is something more at work that can't be accounted for.

 

A lot of people have the same problem believing there is a God, we can't see Him. However, we can see the experience of God in others, we can see Him from self-examination, we can see Him in the universe He created, we can see Him in history, and we can see Him in Jesus' life. There have been many times I have learned something from the skeptics, and that something went on to cause me to develop an even greater understanding of God's Word. That is invaluable to me, I just don't want to do it at their expense, I am hoping that they get something out of it, too. If nothing else, we will have a better understanding of each other.

 

Asking a Christian like Dan not to use the scriptures is like asking a brain surgeon to not use his surgical tools. Yes, there is logic and reason one can use to argue the existance of a God without the Bible, most of that is wrapped up in something like intelligent design and very few Christians bother to equip themselves with that knowledge. However, if you really want to see a brain fixed, you have to use the tool, and that is the Bible. You don't think my tool is sharp enough for the job, but it is, and it's going to take me a lot of work for you to see that and while I will discuss logic and reason and that application in scientific endeavors, I'm still gonna want to pick up my tools and get the job done. For Christians the Bible is the authority and it is near impossible to not refer to it. I have to get off here, I have tons of work to do.

[Asuryan]

Psychologists know there is something more at work than just the snapses in the brain

Yeah. Neurotransmitters and other chemical substances produced by the brain itself. Adrenaline and noradrenaline being only two amidst the many (and they can both initiate emotions and feelings).

This coming from a psychologist. Questions?

 

Asking a Christian like Dan not to use the scriptures is like asking a brain surgeon to not use his surgical tools. 

Respectfully, I think that this is not a good paragon. At all.

It has been demonstrated lots of times by practice, research, and trial and error, that a brain surgeon needs some tools both to open the skull and to delicately remove the source of the problem.

Nowhere it has been demonstrated that "assuming that the Bible is the inerrant word of god" or simply that the Bible is true, is necessary for a religious debate. Not by practice, not by research, not by trial and error.

Furthermore, assuming that the Bible is the word of god and therefore always true is not only unnecessary for a debate, but is also deleterious. Because, if we were to confront the Bible and the Quran, this kind of logic would bring us to assume that the Bible is true (and by extension the Quran is false) just "because". I don't think it's fair. If the bible is true, the quran too is, as they both are "true" by definition of their believer base. Since they can't both be true because of the contradictions, it's much better to assume that none of the two is true "Just because". Of course, if one could *demonstrate* with facts and examples that the bible is true, without assuming that it is just because god says so and god says so because it's in the bible (which has no sense), it would be a completely different matter...

[daniel_1012]

Jesus fucking Christ, you're full of yourself.  Isn't that kind of pride supposed to be a sin, Danny boy?

You haven't done anything "over and over" but LIE LIE LIE!  You haven't proven anything, you never will, and you're just coming up with excuses so you don't have to.

 

100613[/snapback]

 

Yeah buddy, you can put the shovel down now... that hole is plenty big enough. I've lied of nothing, no matter how many stupid imagines with writting on them you can must. Whether I prove to you the truth or not, my witness of the truth be brought into question, the truth is still truth... whether you feel you have adequate proof to validate it or not. You call me a liar because you do not believe, but not because I have lied. In fact, making yourself a liar because you have lied that I am a liar of something you have no believed... rather than have proof of my supposed dishonesty which you are lying about. Same with your friend.

[Vigile]

These were former believers and something got in the way of their belief, real problems and issues that need to be resolved. They are not your average Christian minds, they are real thinkers. Real thinkers either end up like me cemented in faith or they end up die-hard skeptics because they didn't find answers and solutions to their problems.

100664[/snapback]

 

This is an assumption you make that would not ring true with a lot of us here. I didn't have issues with my life or with xtianity. The only issue that brought me from here from there is that it just isn't true. Simple as that.

 

You are right about one thing though, most of us approach our skepticism with the same fervor we once approached our faith. You will find few shallow people here.

[Vulgaris Prime]

Yeah buddy, you can put the shovel down now... that hole is plenty big enough.

 

Jesus fucking Christ, you're still full of yourself.

 

  I've lied of nothing, no matter how many stupid imagines with writting on them you can must.  Whether I prove to you the truth or not, my witness of the truth be brought into question, the truth is still truth...

 

I've told you about a thousand fucking times to PROVE IT. So has Neil. So has TSO. You still haven't produced, just spoken your lying weasel words.

 

whether you feel you have adequate proof to validate it or not.  You call me a liar because you do not believe, but not because I have lied.

 

Oh, really? So what do you call every fucking post you've made? The TRUUUUUTH? Well, tough luck, dumb fuck, it's NOT. Not until you produce some REAL, HARD, CONCRETE FUCKING EVIDENCE that it is!

 

  In fact, making yourself a liar because you have lied that I am a liar of something you have no believed... rather than have proof of my supposed dishonesty which you are lying about.  Same with your friend.

 

You just don't want to own up to me or TSO. You're a fucking Coward for Christ, just like all your other liar buddies who refuse to answer questions. And you're going to suffer the same fate as them: you're going to spend a miserable life denying yourself the freedom you should have, and die miserable.

 

Fuck you, Daniel. You've proven that you simply can't handle being human. I suggest you kill yourself right now to save yourself the trouble of being miserable for the rest of your insignificant fucking life.

 

Oh and "iprayican"? You don't know anything, just like everyone else. Get bent.

[daniel_1012]

daniel_1012

 

Pay attention to this post Dan.  You have managed to do a slick job of dodging every direct question sent your way. You have refused to take head on your own postulations, senarios and statements.

 

In that process you have managed to raise the ire of myself, Dave's 100 Pound Solution to Single Nail Problems.  If you don't care to feel the wonderful sensation of being e.Hammered, take some time to consider your next post and answer here at ExChristian dot net.

 

I don't care to huck and toss folks out the front door of the House, however for folks who want to be coy, waste time and take up server space I will make that dire exception.

 

Instead of trying to evangelize with your quaintly odd style, try finding the time to answer Question A with Answer A instead of the various piles of mush and bullshit that have come from your keyboard.

 

kevinL.

100625[/snapback]

 

Just because I don't have an endless amount of time to answer every single question or line that is dropped my way I'm at fault? You do realize this is an ex-Christian board, because I do, and that being so... how many quesitons do you suppose will come at me? Are you telling me that just because a person asks me a question, unless I answer every single one of them I'm at fault? You're bias, and so is anyone else that would throw me "out the door." Not that it matters... whether I remain here and continue to do as I do, or whether I am removed... know that I will not follow your degenerate Christ rejecting beliefs. You are wrong, God is right, and had you saught Him with all your heart you would currently know that as I know that.

[Vulgaris Prime]

Just because I don't have an endless amount of time to answer every single question or line that is dropped my way I'm at fault?  You do realize this is an ex-Christian board, because I do, and that being so... how many quesitons do you suppose will come at me?

 

Buit you never answer ANY questions posed to you unless you can dismiss them with a stupid little pre-packaged answer.

 

You're a liar, Danny, and you're nothing but. You're finished here.

[crazy-tiger]

Yeah buddy, you can put the shovel down now... that hole is plenty big enough.  I've lied of nothing, no matter how many stupid imagines with writting on them you can must.  Whether I prove to you the truth or not, my witness of the truth be brought into question, the truth is still truth... whether you feel you have adequate proof to validate it or not.  You call me a liar because you do not believe, but not because I have lied.  In fact, making yourself a liar because you have lied that I am a liar of something you have no believed... rather than have proof of my supposed dishonesty which you are lying about.  Same with your friend.

100694[/snapback]

Sorry, but claiming that you were an Atheist WHILE AT THE SAME TIME believing that God exists means that you've lied about being an Atheist...

 

Saying that you need knowledge of everything about a subject to make any kind of absolute claim THEN making an absolute claim means you've lied... (do you have knowledge of everything in the subject of God? No... so you've lied)

 

Claiming that you haven't lied when the proof is there that you have means that you've lied...

 

You claimed that Jesus wasn't a bastard, but a bastard is the illegitimate child of an un-wed couple... Was Mary married to God? No... then Jesus was a bastard. You claim was a lie, meaning you lied...

 

You claimed that I was incorrect when I stated that the Messiah couldn't be of Jeconiahs bloodline, then proved that I was correct... That means you lied...

 

You claimed that you've always believed in the existence of God while claiming that you believed that God didn't exist... One of those claims is a lie, so you've lied...

 

 

 

 

Still want to claim you haven't lied... liar?

[crazy-tiger]

Just because I don't have an endless amount of time to answer every single question or line that is dropped my way I'm at fault?  You do realize this is an ex-Christian board, because I do, and that being so... how many quesitons do you suppose will come at me?  Are you telling me that just because a person asks me a question, unless I answer every single one of them I'm at fault?  You're bias, and so is anyone else that would throw me "out the door."  Not that it matters... whether I remain here and continue to do as I do, or whether I am removed... know that I will not follow your degenerate Christ rejecting beliefs.  You are wrong, God is right, and had you saught Him with all your heart you would currently know that as I know that.

100702[/snapback]

Laddie... you do answer a lot of questions... It's just that your answers are either mis-directional red herrings, nothing to do with the question, useless quotes from the Bible, or repeated rubbarb that has been shown to be a waste of time and bandwidth...

 

 

Are you going to give a STRAIGHT answer, or are you going to answer in a twisted fashion to questions that didn't actually get asked? (I have to ask because you've answered things in Nivek's post that aren't there...)

[daniel_1012]

Buit you never answer ANY questions posed to you unless you can dismiss them with a stupid little pre-packaged answer.

 

You're a liar, Danny, and you're nothing but.  You're finished here.

100703[/snapback]

 

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. Call me what you will, but I've never told a lie here.

[Vulgaris Prime]

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.  Call me what you will, but I've never told a lie here.

100726[/snapback]

 

Sorry, but claiming that you were an Atheist WHILE AT THE SAME TIME believing that God exists means that you've lied about being an Atheist...

 

Saying that you need knowledge of everything about a subject to make any kind of absolute claim THEN making an absolute claim means you've lied... (do you have knowledge of everything in the subject of God? No... so you've lied)

 

Claiming that you haven't lied when the proof is there that you have means that you've lied...

 

You claimed that Jesus wasn't a bastard, but a bastard is the illegitimate child of an un-wed couple... Was Mary married to God? No... then Jesus was a bastard. You claim was a lie, meaning you lied...

 

You claimed that I was incorrect when I stated that the Messiah couldn't be of Jeconiahs bloodline, then proved that I was correct... That means you lied...

 

You claimed that you've always believed in the existence of God while claiming that you believed that God didn't exist... One of those claims is a lie, so you've lied...

 

Hey, look, Danny boy just lied AGAIN!

[Mr. Neil]

Just because I don't have an endless amount of time to answer every single question or line that is dropped my way I'm at fault?  You do realize this is an ex-Christian board, because I do, and that being so... how many quesitons do you suppose will come at me?  Are you telling me that just because a person asks me a question, unless I answer every single one of them I'm at fault?  You're bias, and so is anyone else that would throw me "out the door."

Oh, boo-hoo-hoo! Somebody call this guy a waaaaah-mbulance!

 

Look, Daniel. You came here. You knew what you were getting yourself into, and now you're whining about it. I've got an idea. Instead of trying to take on everyone at once, why don't you try to tackle as many questions as you can in one sitting with the note that you'll return to the ones that weren't asked. You'll find that the people here are perfectly willing to be patient and accomodating.

 

Furthermore, there are very specific questions that you've dodged repeatedly. My request for a coherent definition of a spirit remains unanswered, despite being the one question I've repeatedly asked.

 

Your whining has made me mad, and now I'm going to crush your spirit after this next quote.

 

Not that it matters... whether I remain here and continue to do as I do, or whether I am removed... know that I will not follow your degenerate Christ rejecting beliefs.

 

You're a fool. Even if he existed, Jesus couldn't have been the messiah. Try reading your Old Testament with out gospel-colored glasses. Jesus had to have been the heir of David through a lineage of male progenetors. Unfortunately, that line is broken at Joseph. Oops!

 

And don't try pulling the adoption crap. Adopting a son doesn't bring that son into one's genealogy.

 

You worship a false messiah.

 

Can I save you a lot of time and aggravation? Don't bother trying to refute this. You will never be able to reconcile this discrepency. Rest assured, anything you get from any apologetic website, we've heard million times and have a rebuttal waiting in advance.

 

You are wrong, God is right, and had you saught Him with all your heart you would currently know that as I know that.

God is neither "right" nor "wrong". God is not a person. God is a character in a book. There is no such being. To say that God is right is meaningless to those of us who live in the real world, because such a statement can only be made within the context of a world in which Christianity is true. Unfortunately for you, Christianity happens to be false, and demonstratably so.

 

Again, you assume that the people here did not genuinely seek God, because you refuse to question your own faith. It's circular reasoning. You're suggesting that personal revelation is proof for Christianity, yet when that doesn't work, you claim that the people weren't genuinely seeking. By your standards, it's impossible for Christianity to lose. There is no hypothetical way to demonstrate the falsehood, because you've plugged up all the holes with your fucked-up logic.

 

Have a nice day!