Why christianity still exists...

[iprayican]

That's a great question and I wish I had time to break it down for you myself but I have my hands more than full on another thread. However, there is an excellent series of articles written on this very topic on an apologetics website. If you have the time to explore it, it is a series of five articles, each can be found by hitting the continuation link at the bottom. I agree with what is said in this article and so just pretend it was my post. Maybe I'll come back and see what you have to say, who needs sex or sleep or ...anyway. (sigh) Oh, no! I'm in the dreaded Lion's Den! Are there any angels around to shut their mouths?

 

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/159

[Fweethawt]

You know what it's called when people believe something that can't be proven?  A lie.

No, I think that's still called a 'belief', not a lie.

 

It becomes a lie once you begin to continually propagate it in hopes of having someone else become as convinced as you are even though you have nothing to back up your claims with, then, it's a lie.

 

It's a lie when you claim your beliefs as being true.

If they could be proven, they'd no longer be beliefs or a lie.

 

 

___________________________________________________________

By the way, Dan, you've proven quite a bit since you've been here.

[Amethyst]

No, I think that's still called a 'belief', not a lie.

 

Didn't we just have that whole discussion about believe = to be a lie lover?

 

It becomes a lie once you begin to continually propagate it in hopes of having someone else become as convinced as you are even though you have nothing to back up your claims with, then, it's a lie.

 

Which Danny is doing.

[Fweethawt]

You know, Danny-boy walks this fine line between being a troll

and just being a very annoying moron.  I'm not sure which it is

yet, but let's just say that I'm rather skeptical of his intentions.

He sure seems to like the attention he's getting, though.

 

I'm beginning to wonder whether or not he's an ExC in disguise, and his "There's a sucker born-again every minute." sign, is being directed at us.

 

 

Who knows? Maybe it's Dave sniffin' glue or somethin'?

[Mythra]

Make you a deal, iprayican. I'll read your link if you'll read mine.

 

"The myth of the soul" by Clarence Darrow.

 

After that, we'll compare notes.

[iprayican]

Deal.

[Fweethawt]

Didn't we just have that whole discussion about believe = to be a lie lover?

Where did this conversation take place? I've heard that is the root meaning of the word 'believer' before.

 

Which Danny is doing.

Yeah, I know. But your comment above doesn't distinguish between Danny and anyone else. That's why I tried to clear that up. That's all.

[Asuryan]

Oh, no!  I'm in the dreaded Lion's Den!  Are there any angels around to shut their mouths? 

 

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Christians are yummy. Angels are a bit less yummy, their halo is too sticky and sugary and attaches to the fangs, plus the feathers make you cough and aren't filling at all. *roar*

[Mythra]

Ok, iprayican. I read your link. All FIVE pages. Of course, since I was a christian for an awfully long time, there wasn't too much there I hadn't heard before. But I would like you to notice an important difference between the two articles. In your link, they point to scriptures in the bible over and over again, as if this "proves" something. It doesn't prove anything, except for the fact that a certain phrase or concept is present in the writings of the bible.

 

To someone who doesn't accept the bible as the "word of God", quoting it is no more authoritative than quoting the Quran or the Illiad, or the National Enquirer, for that matter. Compare that with the brilliant mind of Clarence Darrow, who used his brain and reason and rationality to write his piece on the soul.

 

Now, from a not-so-brilliant mind, just a couple of observations about your link.

 

"the idea of the soul is used to refer to the varied emotions or inner thoughts of a man" What do emotions have to do with a "soul"? Do animals have souls? Because they most certainly have emotions. Their emotions are not as developed as ours, because their brains aren't as developed as ours. But animals are perfectly capable of being happy, angry, sad, bored, lonely, frustrated, and they exhibit plenty of other emotions, too.

 

"Death, mortality, corruptibility, decay, are never affirmed of the spirit. It is, in the nature of the case, impossible for a spirit to die." This is nothing more than the author's beliefs, that stem from his faith. You can't tell a person who does not believe in such thing as a spirit that it is impossible for a spirit to die. I say that it is impossible for a spirit to be. We are who we are because of the organ inside of our heads. An organ that will cease to exist someday.

 

"When does a man receive his immortal nature? When James observed that the "body apart from the spirit is dead" (2:26) the corollary automatically inherent in his statement became the fact that if the body is living, then the spirit must be present. Since at each stage of its development the zygote/embryo/fetus is living, it must have had a soul/spirit instilled at conception. No other view is in accord with both the biblical and scientific evidence." Man, oh man. Now we're really getting out there. Because a fetus is alive, it has a spirit. Proved by biblical and scientific evidence? Puh-leeeze. Since you can't prove that a human has a spirit, how on earth you gonna prove a fetus has a spirit? And just exactly when do you think that spirit entered into the fetus? The instant the little dude with the tail found the egg? You can't really believe this nonsense. And to say that it agrees with scientific evidence is beyond silly.

 

"if everything ultimately springs from natural causes, and this life is all there is, what would it matter how man acts? If he is merely the last in a long chain of evolutionary accidents, why should his conduct be of any concern at all?

 

I don't really understand this argument. There are plenty of reasons to stay within accepted bounds of behavior apart from a desire to obey God. Most of these are instilled in us as we are developing. Play fair. Share your toys. Don't hit. Don't lie.

 

If a person were raised by an ogre of a parent, who abused them and lied and hurt them, they probably get instilled the idea that it's okay to do such things.

 

I don't see where the concept of a soul and God are necessary to define right and wrong. We believe that we shouldn't do things to other people that we wouldn't want done to us. It's instilled in us through our societal mores.

[Fweethawt]

If a person were raised by an ogre of a parent, who abused them and lied and hurt them, they probably get instilled the idea that it's okay to do such things.

Some do. Some don't.

 

 

[Ouroboros]

I'm beginning to wonder whether or not he's an ExC in disguise, and his "There's a sucker born-again every minute." sign, is being directed at us. 

Who knows? Maybe it's Dave sniffin' glue or somethin'?       

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No. Danny's not an ExC spoofer. He's the real deal.

[Mythra]

I said probably, fwee.

 

I do believe that our upbringing and early imprinting has a whole lot more to do with our personal concepts of right and wrong than any "moral code" handed down to us from some deity.

[Fweethawt]

I said probably, fwee. 

I know. But there are those (abused) who have children of their own and make a solid commitment to NOT raise their children the way that their parents raised them.

 

Hah! It works out for the better too.

I know, because I speak from experience.

My kids are doing great.

[MQTA]

You know what it's called when people believe something that can't be proven?  A lie.

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Believe: Be a Lie Lover

[MQTA]

Where did this conversation take place? I've heard that is the root meaning of the word 'believer' before. 

 

 

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[q]

 

In studying the etymology of words, one can sometimes come upon the truth when they have been blinded to it by the changed usage of that word. Etymology is the study of the derivations and beginnings of a word as it was originally used in a particular language. The English language is a very rich language. It takes many of its roots for modern words from other old small words in the earlier languages and puts them together to make a bigger word, and therefore, a better symbol or concept for communication. One of the best sources for the average scholar is the Oxford English Dictionary. The thirteen volumes and supplements take up two whole shelves in my library.

 

Take a word like awful. When that word was first coined, it literally meant "full of awe" and meant something good and grand. Today, most people understand "awful" to mean something very bad. By misuse, people gradually changed the usage and meaning of the word.

 

Now look at the word believer. When this word was first used in the English language, it was made up out of three older small words and it meant to "be a lie lover." Belie was the first usage of the word.

 

According to Webster's International and the Oxford English dictionaries, the root words which make up the word believer and belief still retain their true meaning. The two root words make up the word belie, and that word still means to misrepresent. Add the "f" to belie and you have belief, which meant to accept the lie or misrepresentation as though it were the truth. Originally, the "f" was written to designate the word "for" and meant, "to be for the lie, to accept, or to agree with the lie.” So the word was first written as belief 'r. Later this was shortened to belief ' then, to just belief as we have it now, and literally still means, to "be for the lie," or to "be in favor of the lie."

 

Today, the religious tell us the word BELIEVER is a good word. The Clear Thinkers say the word still means EXACTLY what it did when it was first made up out of three old commonly used early English words, namely, one who will still "be a lie lover.”

[/q]

 

http://www.jovialatheist.com/miracles.html

[Mr. Neil]

Wait, was that supposed to be a response to my question? That article practically concedes the very point I was shooting for. There are a lot of different ways that Christians try to describe spirits, souls, and other supernatural words, but when you get right down to it, none of these concepts have any coherent description. All of them are distinguished primarily on what they are not, which is natural.

[Vulgaris Prime]

No thanks.

You've lied your last, liar. You're openly dodging questions and refusing to actually debate. That's troll behavior, Danny boy, and not tolerated here.

 

You're finished on this site.

[Amanda]

"The myth of the soul" by Clarence Darrow.

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Mythra, I read some of this site you've posted... and would be interested in your insights to some of what this other site has to say about our soul... I haven't read the 'whole' site yet either, but plan to do so. Maybe you could skim through a little bit of it and share your philosophy on this theory? Thanks.

 

http://www.ial.goldthread.com/

[All Gods Fail]

You've lied your last, liar.  You're openly dodging questions and refusing to actually debate.  That's troll behavior, Danny boy, and not tolerated here.

 

You're finished on this site.

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Jesus, that's all Danny has ever done on this board! I had him pegged as a troll from the start. I wonder if he's even a xtian - no one can be as stupid as he pretends to be.

 

Can they?

[Vixentrox]

Jesus, that's all Danny has ever done on this board! I had him pegged as a troll from the start. I wonder if he's even a xtian - no one can be as stupid as he pretends to be.

 

Can they?

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Christian can be....

[Mythra]

In studying the etymology of words, one can sometimes come upon the truth when they have been blinded to it by the changed usage of that word. Etymology is the study of the derivations and beginnings of a word as it was originally used in a particular language.

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Hmm. I wonder if Robert Price has studied etymology? In his book "Deconstructing Jesus" he has a chapter entitled "The Cruci-fiction."

 

Amanda - I'll try and get a look at that site tonight. Looks like it's about reincarnation. When I was in college, the sect of buddhism I was in believed in reincarnation. It's not a bad thing to believe in. Karma, and the universal laws of cause-and-effect and all of that. I knew Japanese ladies who, if a fly got in their house, would try and get the fly to go back out the door instead of killing it. (true story). They didn't want to create any negative karma for their next life.

 

Right now, for me, I have no need in believing in an afterlife. It all just seems like so much delusory mental maneuvers to avoid thinking about the unavoidable.

[MQTA]

Hmm.  I wonder if Robert Price has studied etymology?  In his book "Deconstructing Jesus" he has a chapter entitled "The Cruci-fiction."

Was only a few weeks ago when I saw someone calling something a cult and then they went on about a Christian Subculture and realized there was a CULT right there. Christian Sub-Cult-ure

 

Amanda - I'll try and get a look at that site tonight.  Looks like it's about reincarnation.  When I was in college, the sect of buddhism I was in believed in reincarnation.  It's not a bad thing to believe in.  Karma, and the universal laws of cause-and-effect and all of that.  I knew Japanese ladies who, if a fly got in their house, would try and get the fly to go back out the door instead of killing it.  (true story). They didn't want to create any negative karma for their next life.

 

Right now, for me, I have no need in believing in an afterlife.  It all just seems like so much delusory mental maneuvers to avoid thinking about the unavoidable.

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The jury is out on reincarnation. Given the universe seems to recycle things, yada yada yada, energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes, yada yada yada... it would make sense that IF there's something that makes us more than a mindless drone, then it, too, would recycle.

 

People seem to believe in spirit, and some say that it goes On eternally... if that is the case, then it didn't start in the womb, it was around 'eternally' prior too.

 

Of course, whatever spark energy this is would animate all beings, so just cause you're human now doesn't mean you weren't a mosquito or a rabbit or horse some time before.

 

The 20/20 ep about that kid who KNEW (if we can believe the parents and crew) about these planes and had a name, and they looked up the name and it all matched what the kid was babbling about got me thinking about the possibility. Can't rule it out. I also remember my son's babblings when he was under 5, we could just never make heads of tails out of his stories, but they surely weren't from any influence in his young life.

 

I think it's something we really don't want to deal with. My son talked about some pretty wild things, if we could have pumped him for more details that made sense, maybe even a name or place, it would have added so much complexity to our lives. We're better off not knowing. But I see more realistic-contemplations for reincarnation, as a function of our beings than there is for God and even the simplest of explainations for that idea.

[Amethyst]

The jury is out on reincarnation. Given the universe seems to recycle things, yada yada yada, energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes, yada yada yada... it would make sense that IF there's something that makes us more than a mindless drone, then it, too, would recycle.

 

Yeah. I'd personally rather believe in reincarnation, but there's no proof for it. At least, something like that wouldn't require membership in a particular religion. Either it exists or it doesn't.

[MQTA]

Yeah.  I'd personally rather believe in reincarnation, but there's no proof for it.  At least, something like that wouldn't require membership in a particular religion.  Either it exists or it doesn't.

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There is, well, could be, proof, but NOBODY is going to allow pumping 2 and 3 year olds for information. I missed my shot back in 96-97. My son now has no memory of the things he used to say. I think most of us are simply just too afraid to find out for sure.

 

I guess you can imagine things you'd like to believe, but haven't you ever thought someone kinda looked like a lion, or a rabbit, or some other animal? I use lion and rabbit cause that's what comes to mind, those people stand out, after all these years. LOL. And you can imagine all sorts of possiblities. Like maybe those really cruel people and murderers, rapists, etc, all come back as trees, so they're taken out of the mobile gene pool for a good long time.

 

Ever since I considered reincarnation could be a possibility, I have no qualms about killing insects. I'm just helping them get on with their next life.

 

I also got a video back on September 10th, 2001, that freaked me out. Just as I was sharing my amazement with people, well, 14 hours later they weren't much interested in what I found.

 

And it's funny how _I_ got it. My friend got an mpg that he couldn't view, so he emailed it to me and asked. When I watched it, my jaw dropped. The mpg is called whysumoisbetterthankarate and it shows 2 cats. One cat is a big fat orange adult, and the other is a small black kitten. There's Chinese subtitles and the little kitty is making these funny motions (like karate) and then the big fat orange cat jumps and pummels him (sumo). Great video. There's a caption date on it, I assume from a Super 8 movie, 1974 or so.

 

A year or more before getting this mpg, we got this little orange cat who just kept getting bigger and bigger, looked just like the orange cat in the video. In the summer of 2001 a litter was born in an abandoned van in the neighborhood. The guy who owned the van used it as storage and didn't want the cats in it. He was going to get rid of them, so we took 2 and a neighbor took 2. I didn't want another 2 cats so we gave one away. The one we kept looked EXACTLY like the kitten in the mpg -- the one we gave away, did NOT.

 

This black kitten would fight with the orange cat just like in the video. Both cats have identical markings. In every way. Had we not gotten involved with those kittens in the van, we'd surely not have had this black kitten and the mpg woulda just been an amusing video that looked like one of my cats, typical cat. I didn't want more than 2 cats, we also had a siamese. My family convinced me. They were meant to be together.

 

To get that mpg just blew my mind. If there's reincarnation, these two cats were destined to meet again, they apparently were together in 1974. I got the mpg when these two cats looked exactly like that. They're older now and don't fight like that. Was just too freaky. Great timing, too.

 

Who knows. Sure, big coincidence... just makes ya think.

[Amethyst]

There is, well, could be, proof, but NOBODY is going to allow pumping 2 and 3 year olds for information. I missed my shot back in 96-97. My son now has no memory of the things he used to say. I think most of us are simply just too afraid to find out for sure.

 

I had a weird recurring dream as a young child (around the age of 5 or so). I kept dreaming about a car wreck and I kept seeing a lady with dark hair. It could've been absorbed from a TV show or something, I suppose. Who knows?

 

If anyone in my family had asked me, my mother would've probably said it was "Satan's work" anyway, and that would have been the end of it.