Why Are You Christians So Insincere With Your Hell Beliefs?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Cits said: First, I am not "factoring out freedom of choice." As I demonstrated in the example in my comments above this, you need to stop oversimplifying beliefs into mere choices.

 

Second, it doesn't matter whether or not "God can force everybody to be obedient robots." That has no bearing on the question. The question was simply asking if your prayer affects God's power. If your prayer cannot boost God's power, then your prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

(As a side note, the only reason I asked this question is because it's the only way one could argue for the prayer being effective after acknowledging that the prayer doesn't inform God of anything or motivate him to do something he otherwise wouldn't have chosen to do.)

 

Third, you say that God "permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans." The first part ("our lives") doesn't pertain to the issue, since the questions were asked in the context of the issue of praying for others. Regarding the second part ("the lives of our fellow humans"), you may indeed ask God to intervene, but you have rendered such prayers as ineffective by answering "No" to the questions that were asked.

 

So, in summary, praying for others has no effect, and your very answers to the questions that were asked attest to this fact.

 

 

Thumb: Eh, see my sheep analogy and stop eating grass with a bunch of pesticide in it.

BTW, you are switching up your questions in a subtil way, God is all powerful, He does not need us but because of His loving and kind nature He wants His creatures to love and serve Him because they trust Him and to a certain extent He wants to appeal to their intellect.

 

So, I show serious flaws in your arguments, and the best you can come back with is an analogy of pesticide laden grass? This shows that you have no rebuttal for what I've shown to be serious problems with the concept of praying for others.

 

BTW, no I did not switch the questions. The yes/no questions remained exactly the same as they were at first.

 

Your final comments above regarding God being all powerful and everything else represent typical Christian concepts, but they have no bearing on the issue at hand. As was demonstrated by your own answers to the questions that were posed, your prayers for people have absolutely no effect whatsoever. They don't inform God of anything he didn't know, nor do they motivate him to help someone he otherwise would not have helped, nor do they empower him in a way he was not empowered before. Such prayers do NOTHING other than make you feel good! There is no power in such a prayer.

 

As far as God appealing to our intellect, I agreed with that as a Christian. That's one of the reasons why I studied the Bible and apologetics a lot. I wanted to "grow in grace and knowledge" and I wanted to "always be prepared to give an answer." Yet, it was the very studying that was supposed to boost my faith that ended up destroying it.

 

Thumb: I did not speak to Citsonga much on here so how did I make false accusations against you "many times"?

 

I said "multiple times," not "many times." Regardless, though, allow me to refresh your memory. Skimming back through the thread, here are a few false accusations you've specifically directed at me (I've compiled them into one quote):

 

They are loaded questions with the goal of demonizing God.

You are trying to limit God with semantics

you put your own reasoning above what the [edit] Word of God says, Cain did that too. In my analogy I was talking about your attitude

you are on Satan's side

 

And here are a few general comments that are also false accusations:

 

dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf

Satanists by default because they are not actively following God

atheism IS WORSE than Satanism

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it.

 

OK, it's late and I've got to get to bed, so the rest will have to wait until another date.

[mymistake]

Thumbelina, I'm going to try to save space by condensing the discussion a little.

 

Better yet, recognize that she is hopelessly lost. That is all these online discussions with Christians are good for - to remind us to never try this off-line because as long as they believe Christians are beyond recovery. If they find a way out of Christianity then they can be reached. Until then the brainwashing prevents critical thinking.

[mymistake]

I was just told by a Jewish Christian of many years; that a HOLOCAUST survivor who had "not accepted Yeshua" had died in his sins and she was sad that he was not in heaven but in hell!!!

 

She said this to me; a person who knew and loved him and he was the MOST merciful, loving and generous man I have ever known. According to christian doctrine, because he "did not proclaim faith in Yeshua" then he "must be" in Hell....well, if he is in Hell, I would rather be there too...

 

When I was on the verge of de-converting I saw a youtube video (I can't recall which one for I watched many religious videos at the time) and it brought this very topic up. It pointed out that Christians theology means that all the Jewish people murdered during the Holocaust would have been thrown strait into hell over their beliefs. Then it went into great detail on the kind of suffering many Holocaust victims went through. After that what kind of a God would put someone who suffered all of that in hell? It was the first time I had thought of it that way and it was a real eye opener.

 

Only a monster could do that and it doesn't make sense.

 

I also heard an EX MORMON say that she prayed about leaving LDS and prayed "Lord if THESE are YOUR people who will be in Heaven, then send me to Hell, I don't want to be with them"...that is just how I feel about this judgemental UNLOVING and pardon me, UN CHRIST LIKE talk to someone who is mourning the loss of a dear friend.

 

Sorry, I didn't know.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Christians have a transcendent moral absolute that shapes character and ethics,

 

Christians have no such thing. If morality was absolute and the Bible represented such, then you wouldn't have flip-flopping on moral issues. The OT is rampant with God-sanctioned killing, genocide, murdering children, slavery, stoning people to death, etc. The fact that these have been written off by most modern Christians as not applicable now shows that your religion does not have absolute morality.

 

Thumbelina, I'm going to try to save space by condensing the discussion a little.

 

Better yet, recognize that she is hopelessly lost. That is all these online discussions with Christians are good for - to remind us to never try this off-line because as long as they believe Christians are beyond recovery. If they find a way out of Christianity then they can be reached. Until then the brainwashing prevents critical thinking.

 

I know it's probably hopeless. Thumby has shown no capacity to think logically, she merely spouts the circular nonsense she's been brainwashed with. I think she means well (despite her false accusations against me/us about having bad attitudes, wanting to demonize God, being worse than Satanists and all that garbage), but unfortunately she has shown no capacity to reasonably evaluate this stuff.

 

Yet, even though it seems hopeless, ten years ago I would have seemed like a hopeless case. I was thoroughly brainwashed with the same sort of nonsense.

 

Gotta get to work.

[ConureDelSol]

The bible does not say much about atheism, well, because atheism is utterly stupid

YOU'RE stupid!

 

Atheists try to UNDERSTAND the world. They admit they DON'T have all the answers and strive to challenge themselves to FIND them. YOU choose not to remain ignorant and chalk everything up to God and a book of fairytales.

 

I really, really wish you would just TRY to see things from our point of view. I have seen things from the Christian point of view and even then I could not fathom how anyone could NOT believe in God or the Bible. I invite you to step into our shoes. Try reading something with an open mind and not just write off everyone on this forum as "stupid."

 

Before you try to say "I didn't call everyone here stupid, I called atheism stupid!" Let me just say that you have effectively called the beliefs of many on this forum stupid. These are beliefs that we have reached from study and research. You have insulted the intelligence of every atheist on this forum.

 

I know you're probably going to ignore or twist this post into something that fits your Biblical truth, but seriously, that comment alone REALLY pissed me off.

[NEWsong]

Christians have a transcendent moral absolute that shapes character and ethics,

 

Christians have no such thing. The fact that these have been written off by most modern Christians as not applicable now shows that your religion does not have absolute morality.

 

@Thumbelina...thanks for talking with us here in the Lion's Den; I would like you to hear my story...I was ABUSED for YEARS by a man who "claimed to be a christian"...please hear me when I say that HE KNOWS scripture but THAT in itself does not "make one a christian"...He claimed MORAL ABSOLUTES...misogyny was his favorite.

He believed that since "he was the MAN", he was "given rights by God" to:

1) DEMAND submission of my actions AND thoughts and I was TO OBEY HIM JUST AS I WOULD "GOD"...

2) Refuse to pray with me since he did not agree with my prayers and we were not "equally yoked"

though I had been a MUCH MORE ACTIVE and sincere christian with "testimony" of my faith of over 25 years.

3) LIE (SO many...from the VERY beginning)

4) MANIPULATE (he tried to get me fired from my employment so he could take our child from me)

5) commit bigamy (he couldn't WAIT for us to be divorced and he married a woman whom he FINALLY remarried legally),

6) SLANDERED me and others, etc...SO MUCH MORE that was UNchristianlike and yet HE CONTENDED THAT HE WAS A CHRISTIAN. These are the MORAL ABSOLUTES that he believes in.

 

Thumbelina; you may be small and there is NO shame in that...but arguing that the BIBLE is true WITH the BIBLE is nonsensical. It is what is known as "circular reasoning" in abuse circles. To say that YOU KNOW that EVERYONE has an INNATE sense of GOD, is actually an ABUSIVE and DEFINING statement. You do NOT have proof NOR are you in anyone's head to say that "they know" this or that. We can only "know" what we observe to be true. You have HEARD very much that is NOT ONLY NOT IN THE BIBLE but it is "christian-speak" that has NO LOGICAL BASIS and cannot be reasoned with; yet "reasoning together" is a virtue and command in the Bible YET you do NOT REASON with logic or kindness for your brother/sister "man"...

 

I have only been an EXchristian for 6 months or more now. I can tell you that YOU ARE BRAINWASHED. I WAS brainwashed.

I did not think logically because I felt that I HAD TO HOLD ONTO THE TRUTH to survive. My EXh is a "religious abuser"...he uses religion, and used MY faith to abuse me. He is personality disordered. He does not believe anything that I say that I experience or believe as having any truth in it at all because I am NOT spouting scripture to JUSTIFY myself and my actions. He has SPEWED scripture at me and I had responded; this was 2008 sometime (I would say a turning point of my deconversion; though I did not know it then) when I responded..."REALLY, if you were the ONLY christian witness, I would NOT want to be a christian BECAUSE OF YOU!!!" That didn't even phase him...he did not care about my SOUL and if I would be LOST eternally. He only cared to CONTROL and MANIPULATE me and USE MY FAITH IN GOD to manipulate me...He told me that if I "disobey him, that I was disobeying God"...WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP THAT WAS...and I am sure that he STILL believes that and in and of itself, it means NOTHING TO ME. It will NOT send me to hell because I would NOT tolerate his abuse. I stayed in the abusive marriage BECAUSE we were christians (or at least I "knew" I was at the time and "thought" he was but later realized that HE WAS HIS OWN GOD and I was NOT going to worship him...

 

Now you can take the Bible and try to "disprove" anything that I have shared with you...it will not change the REALITY OF THE TRUTH THAT I HAVE FOUND. I am NOT afraid to say that I am NO LONGER a christian...for many of the reasons that you are so clearly giving example of the brainwashing and illogical "reasoning"...

 

When my friend said that my friend, the Holocaust Survivor was IN HELL because he had not accepted Jesus...to that I wanted to tell her TO GO TO HELL...how unkind and STUPID of her to say to me...

 

Give it some thought; some REAL thought...

[mymistake]

I know it's probably hopeless. Thumby has shown no capacity to think logically, she merely spouts the circular nonsense she's been brainwashed with. I think she means well (despite her false accusations against me/us about having bad attitudes, wanting to demonize God, being worse than Satanists and all that garbage), but unfortunately she has shown no capacity to reasonably evaluate this stuff. Yet, even though it seems hopeless, ten years ago I would have seemed like a hopeless case. I was thoroughly brainwashed with the same sort of nonsense. Gotta get to work.

 

I know she means well. Been there and done that. However her intentions are irrelevant.

 

I also know Christians can become ex-Christians. However I am convinced that in the vast majority of the cases these debates are not a factor in de-conversion. Remember back when you were a Christian? Christians build each other up so that they can "defend the Faith". The Sunday morning preaching I experienced reinforced the circular reasoning and fallacies we see Christians spout. IMO the biggest factors in de-conversion are education in critical thinking, experiencing the madness of Christians turning on each other and watching how Christianity stacks up against life. This might be worth starting a new topic.

 

Thumby doesn't have critical thinking skills so you are not going to reach her. She will de-convert when Christians turn on her or when her faith lets her down. Until then her madness is bulletproof. Maybe someday she will have that "ah ha" moment we all had and then she will see.

[Thumbelina]

The bible does not say much about atheism, well, because atheism is utterly stupid

YOU'RE stupid!

 

Atheists try to UNDERSTAND the world. They admit they DON'T have all the answers and strive to challenge themselves to FIND them. YOU choose not to remain ignorant and chalk everything up to God and a book of fairytales.

 

I really, really wish you would just TRY to see things from our point of view. I have seen things from the Christian point of view and even then I could not fathom how anyone could NOT believe in God or the Bible. I invite you to step into our shoes. Try reading something with an open mind and not just write off everyone on this forum as "stupid."

 

Before you try to say "I didn't call everyone here stupid, I called atheism stupid!" Let me just say that you have effectively called the beliefs of many on this forum stupid. These are beliefs that we have reached from study and research. You have insulted the intelligence of every atheist on this forum.

 

I know you're probably going to ignore or twist this post into something that fits your Biblical truth, but seriously, that comment alone REALLY pissed me off.

 

 

 

 

If I had a a dollar for every time an athiest calls a believer stupid, dumb, idiot on the net, I would be quite rich and would give Bill Gates a run for his money.*shakes head*

 

I do see that religion has hurt a # of people. I also see A LOT of misinformation about the bible and God which leads into skepticism and doubt. I CANNOT step into atheist shoes because I have understanding about God's love and care that will not permit me to step into such darkness. I read the bible for myself and RIGHLY divide the word ( rightly dividing the word draws one closer to God and one will not shun God's justice ) whereas atheists wrongly divide the word all the time! With the internet out there directing their understanding, it is hard for them to be "Surprised by Joy" like C.S. Lewis. I see many that just do not know the gospel and they let the problem of evil prevent them from seeing a good God.

 

An atheist from this website who insulted me a few times but whom I came to really like (that's what's frustrating, a # of atheists are quite likable ), gave me a link to some book by Christopher Hitchens to read. I read some of it but quickly found Hitchens, like many atheists out there, to be monumentally ignorant about biblical insight. I also thought Hitchens was quite pompous and he seemed to have embraced some hedonism, inclinations that will cause a person to not want to seek God with their WHOLE heart. I don't condemn Hitchens but I am just saying what I saw on the surface based on his writings.

 

 

If I thought people on here were stupid I will not post in this forum . There's another forum out there that I would not touch with a ten foot pole. God has to let me know in a direct way if He wants me to join that one. I like this forum actually and find the people here to be interesting and most are likable.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Christians have a transcendent moral absolute that shapes character and ethics,

 

When I said the above I was not saying that all Christians obey the transcendent moral absolute, I was just saying we have one.

 

 

 

....................

 

@Thumbelina...thanks for talking with us here in the Lion's Den.

 

The den is not really a good place to talk actually but it is a good place to tease ex Christians.

 

 

 

 

 

I would like you to hear my story...I was ABUSED for YEARS

 

I am so sorry you had to endure that, that's so messed up!

 

 

Yeah, I knew of "Christian" wardens before I chose to become a Christian. I saw Christian hypocrites but for some reason I just knew that their bad fruit was not from God. A Christian warden would tell me do this and this because " I say" and not because God loves me and wants me to obey His commandments. That Christian warden was also spiteful and always want to know everbody's business. He also wanted respect from everyone. I used to think that he thought he was God.

 

Even then, I did not go through anything like what you did. Again, I am sorry you had to go through abuse like that.

 

 

...................

 

 

Thumbelina; you may be small and there is NO shame in that...but arguing that the BIBLE is true WITH the BIBLE is nonsensical.

 

You remind me of BAA and some others on here. [Edit] You remind me of BAA and others based on your first statement.

 

 

 

..........................

 

^

[Edit]

 

 

I argue against atheistic propaganda and deliberate (in some cases) misunderstanding of the bible with the intent of demonizing the Christian God. If someone does not believe it and does not WANT to believe it then they should not misinterpret it and pretend that that is the right interpretation; or if they pretend it is the right interpretation in order to brainwash themselves out of accepting Christianity, they should not write it down and spread it around as fact.

 

 

 

........................

 

 

 

My EXh is a "religious abuser"...he uses religion, and used MY faith to abuse me. He is personality disordered. He does not believe anything that I say that I experience or believe as having any truth in it at all because I am NOT spouting scripture to JUSTIFY myself and my actions. He has SPEWED scripture at me and I had responded; this was 2008 sometime (I would say a turning point of my deconversion; though I did not know it then) when I responded..."REALLY, if you were the ONLY christian witness, I would NOT want to be a christian BECAUSE OF YOU!!!" That didn't even phase him...he did not care about my SOUL and if I would be LOST eternally. He only cared to CONTROL and MANIPULATE me and USE MY FAITH IN GOD to manipulate me...He told me that if I "disobey him, that I was disobeying God"...WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP THAT WAS...and I am sure that he STILL believes that and in and of itself, it means NOTHING TO ME. It will NOT send me to hell because I would NOT tolerate his abuse. I stayed in the abusive marriage BECAUSE we were christians ...

 

 

But did your ex follow the transcendent laws that are there to shape his character and morals?

The bible says this: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:25

 

It teaches believers to love their neighbors as themselves. Neighbors (neigh brothers) includes spouses too so your ex was SEVERELY disobedient to God and he did you wrong.

 

 

...................

 

 

When my friend said that my friend, the Holocaust Survivor was IN HELL because he had not accepted Jesus...to that I wanted to tell her TO GO TO HELL...how unkind and STUPID of her to say to me...

 

 

 

You determine what the bible says based on people?! People ought to be noble like the Bereans and check what people say by the Word.

 

The Word says that hell does not even exist yet so when Christians play God and say this person is in hell I know that that is NOT true because hell does not exist yet therefore no one is in hell.

[bornagainathiest]

Re post #216

Cits, it's not my intent to go into a circular argument with atheistic types who are not listenin' but debunkin'. It was/is my goal to find someone who is at least intellectually honest to actually look at the bible in the way it stipulates so one can avoid private interpretations.

 

Then you will look forever, Thumbelina.

 

Everyone makes their own, private interpretation of the Bible. Even you.

When you look in the mirror, the person looking back is no different from every other Christian who thinks that private, subjective interpretations of scripture are for others - not me!

 

All Christians who claim they don't have a subjective take on the Bible, can easily be shown that they do.

All Christians who claim they read scripture as God wants them to do, can easily be shown that they don't.

All Christians who claim to have the truth, can easily be shown to be in error.

 

It's remarkably easy to knock down any claim a Christian can make about their understanding of the Bible.

 

Here...

 

http://www.godsplanforall.com/

These folks are Christian Universalists. The truth of the Bible (a.k.a., their own, private and subjective understanding of scripture) tells them that the Lake of Fire is a place of temporary correction and not eternal punishment.

 

http://www.cbcg.org/

The Christian Biblical Church of God are not Trinitarians. The truth of the Bible (a.k.a., their own, private and sunjective understanding of scripture) tells them that there is a God the Father and a God the Son, but no God the Holy Spirit.

 

http://biblocality.com/

This site is run by a devout Christian who believes that the truth of the Bible (a.k.a...blah blah blah) tells him that the New Jerusalem, the Holy City of God will be found on the planet Mars.

 

Thumbelina simply cannot prove that these Christians are in error, but she has the truth - all she can do is to CLAIM this.

 

Please remember folks, she's real big on claims but can prove N-O-T-H-I-N-G!

 

BAA.

[Thumbelina]

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

 

That's just not true.

 

 

Hi!!!

 

Florduh made me laugh yesterday because he reminded me of you. He had a short response like the one you have here.

 

 

It is true, my dear.

Even this potty mouth ( potty hand cuz it is typed) fellow ADMITTED that we yearn for God.

Living life said this:

 

 

 

How is it that it seems very evident to us that god knocks on your hearts door but once you have converted you are pretty much on your own other than the illusion you are filled with the holy spook.

 

My respect for him went waaay up when I saw that he was honest enough to admit that. I tend to like tell-it-like-it-is people like you, Florduh and him cuz I was around a compulsive liar so I like people to be straight with me.

[Thumbelina]

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

 

That's just not true.

 

Bingo! I have yet to see a newborn baby or any other primate pray or worship God. Christianity or any other theism is learned, just like language. Talk about an unsupported assertion!

 

A baby cries so loud when it is born because it knows what is coming, a basically godless world with a lot of evil.

 

...................

 

I missed YOU but not your sacrilegious shenanigans.

[Thumbelina]

It was/is my goal to find someone who is at least intellectually honest to actually look at the bible in the way it stipulates so one can avoid private interpretations.

Translation:

intellectually honest = must agree with you

 

By the way, all interpretations are subjective.

 

 

Darlin' (beloved), I did not talk to you since last year; I think? I was hoping you would quit your job as a propagandist

 

intellectually honest = must agree with the bible and its method of interpretation.

 

True interpretations are objective and meant to guide humans into a relationship with God.

[bornagainathiest]

You remind me of BAA and some others on here.

 

 

I argue against atheistic propaganda and deliberate (in some cases) misunderstanding of the bible with the intent of demonizing the Christian God. If someone does not believe it and does not WANT to believe it then they should not misinterpret it and pretend that that is the right interpretation; or if they pretend it is the right interpretation in order to brainwash themselves out of accepting Christianity, they should not write it down and spread it around as fact.

 

No Thumbelina, you don't present arguments - you present your own private and subjective interpretation of scripture, nothing more.

 

I don't have to demonize the Christian God, the Bible does a perfectly good job of that.

 

Nor do I do as you do and proudly proclaim that I divide scripture rightly and that mine is the correct interpretation.

No. These days I simply show that your interpretation is just one of many, many disagreeing voices. If you want to go ahead and take on the Christians who disagree with your "correct" interpretation, please go ahead. Please leave us and take the rest of your life on this impossible quest. Or at least leave us alone for the next couple of decades, ok?

 

Nor do I try and brainwash myself out of accepting Christianity. I repeat, I now demonstrate that you do not have the one truth of God by showing that yours is simply one of millions of different, purely subjective views about the Bible.

 

Got that?

With you, I don't write down MY views of scripture any more.

With you, I don't deal with my interpretations of the Bible any more.

With you, I don't spread my theological views around as fact.

 

Talking of facts...

 

FACT:

You, Thumbelina are the one spreading your (subjective) views around as truth.

 

FACT:

You are the one claiming to know the truth.

 

FACT:

You are the one who's forcing their own conclusions about the Bible onto others.

 

Have you seen me do any of those three things lately?

(Rhetorical question. You won't answer it and you haven't seen me do these things lately.)

 

So please stop bearing false witness against me.

 

Or rather, please carry on lying about me. I give permission to do so. The more you do it, the more everyone here will see what kind of spiritual fruit you bear.

 

(Rotten. Putrid. Stinking.)

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

True interpretations are objective and meant to guide humans into a relationship with God.

 

Prove this.

 

Don't just claim it's true - prove it.

 

Start from A, go thru B and C and however many steps you need to and demonstrate it.

Precisely, exactly an unequivocally, without any kind of subjective interpretation on your part.

 

Don't do it for me... I know you won't.

 

Do it for the sake of the truth.

 

BAA.

[mymistake]

Okay if Thumby was trying to demonstrate that she is just toying with you, that she is just being a tease, that she is insincere, that she is intellectually dishonest, that she has bought into deillusions until they completely distorts her worldview then what more would she have to write? How could she make that more plain? Perhaps if she put a full page ad in the New York Times . . . or a halftime Superbowl spot!

[bdp]

 

 

A baby cries so loud when it is born because it knows what is coming, a basically godless world with a lot of evil.

 

 

I want book chapter and verse on this one.

[NEWsong]

The den is not really a good place to talk actually but it is a good place to tease ex Christians.

That's interesting...do you mean TEASING as in trying to "tempt" us with God's love and your superior understanding of the scriptures. I would bet that I READ, PRAYED, PROPHESIED in Jesus' Name, Layed hands on people and had all the "gifts of the Spirit" YET NONE of that is important NOW...I don't feel "toyed" with by you if that is what you are asserting. I am not toying either; just flexing my logical reasoning and thinking muscles a bit.

 

Thumbelina; you may be small and there is NO shame in that...but arguing that the BIBLE is true WITH the BIBLE is nonsensical.

You remind me of BAA and some others on here. [Edit] You remind me of BAA and others based on your first statement.

I was referring to your name, THUMBELINA, it is a reference to Hans Christian Andersen's children story; Thumbelina was VERY small...I assumed that you chose the name as being "innocent" and "not have great strength or power" YET Thumelina, in the story, was TALL in character and integrity. I don't know who or what BAA is; I guess I will take that as a compliment, thanks!..........................

 

I argue against atheistic propaganda and deliberate (in some cases) misunderstanding of the bible with the intent of demonizing the Christian God.

I have studied the bible extensively and probably could QUOTE and explain more scriptures than you; my UNDERSTANDING of the bible has lead me to accept the TRUTH...I have not and will not try to "demonize" anyone...You telling me that you think that is my intent is WRONG. You do not know me and my intent or understanding of the Bible or God. I don't consider myself an atheist but if so, my understanding would be NO MORE PROPAGANDA than your "explanations" that things are exactly as YOU believe they are... You are NOT "God" and do NOT KNOW ALL...

 

If someone does not believe it and does not WANT to believe it then they should not misinterpret it and pretend that that is the right interpretation; or if they pretend it is the right interpretation in order to brainwash themselves out of accepting Christianity, they should not write it down and spread it around as fact.

Since you know so much...

WHAT do I BELIEVE????

What do I WANT to believe???

HOW have I misinterpreted scripture?

WHY do you say that I am "pretending" to have a "right interpretation"? YOU SEEM TO BE DOING THAT ENOUGH FOR ALL OF US HERE.

WHY do you say that I have "brainwashed" myself OUT of accepting Christianity????

WHY do you say and WHO ARE YOU to think that I have NO RIGHT to write down and "spread around" whatever I want to???

This is a free country and what you are saying is IN VIOLATION OF MY RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH...if this would be so, it would be ILLEGAL for you to say the things you say as well.

 

You said alot and said NOTHING at the same time...if you would "like to reason together", you will have to use LOGIC and not christian propaganda. .......

But did your ex follow the transcendent laws that are there to shape his character and morals?

The bible says this: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; Eph 5:25

He was NOT a christian; or at least I do not consider him worthy of attaining to a higher standard as such, he is AN ABUSER who pretended to be a Christian because I was a christian at the time. No, he obviously DID NOT shape his morals and character by following these transcendent laws...he PRETENDED to be a christian to CONTROL and manipulate and abuse me. He constantly DEMANDED submission of me as well.

It teaches believers to love their neighbors as themselves. Neighbors (neigh brothers) includes spouses too so your ex was SEVERELY disobedient to God and he did you wrong.

Funny thing is, I don't think he cares that HE was disobedient to anyone. He could only assert HOW CONTENTIOUS and DISOBEDIENT that I was TO HIM!!!!..........

You determine what the bible says based on people?! People ought to be noble like the Bereans and check what people say by the Word.

NO>>>> I know what the bible says, I was stating that with her "being a christian" that if I WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN that her "condemning my friend to hell" for not accepting Jesus would NOT be consoling to me and probably would "not win me" to BECOME a christian.

 

The Word says that hell does not even exist yet so when Christians play God and say this person is in hell I know that that is NOT true because hell does not exist yet therefore no one is in hell.

Where is that stated in the Bible? I don't understand, if you don't believe in hell yet you win souls to keep them from going ....NO WHERE???

[NEWsong]

"The single biggest problem with COMMUNICATION is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw

[centauri]

I argue against atheistic propaganda and deliberate (in some cases) misunderstanding of the bible with the intent of demonizing the Christian God. If someone does not believe it and does not WANT to believe it then they should not misinterpret it and pretend that that is the right interpretation; or if they pretend it is the right interpretation in order to brainwash themselves out of accepting Christianity, they should not write it down and spread it around as fact.

What dripping irony.

Pot meet kettle.

It's Christianity that hypes itself as the only truth, claims to have a monopoly on "God", pretends it has the right interpretation of everything spiritual, twists the Old Testament into a pretzel, rips verses out of context in order to validate doctrines, labels people as "lost" or in league with the "devil", and will lie at the drop of a hat for Jesus.

Christianity laughs in the face of the Old Testament god, and then has the nerve to think they speak for this deity.

It also tries to create reality for others through mere repetition, which is little more than an effort to pound people into submission by force.

By the standard you set, Christians should not spread around pretense and propaganda as fact.

The fact that Christians cannot even agree with each other on what "truth" is, bears testimony to the completely subjective nature of this religion.

[Thumbelina]

Re Post # 225

 

Please note that in my responses I am giving biblical explanations in my responses; a reason for my belief as it were. Therefore when I said the following I was giving a biblical response.

 

Thumb said: Everyone innately knows that God exists.

 

Cits said: Beyond that, the very fact that Christians like you attempt to convince people to believe in your God clearly demonstrates that people don't "innately know" that your God exists. After all, if they knew it, then they wouldn't need convincing.

 

 

Thumb: People who do not ABIDE with God are in rebellion. Much like a drug addict hides ( because they innately KNOW it's wrong) their drugs and yet their loved ones attempt to convince them that being drug free is best for them. Humans are rebellious creatures and rebellion makes people irrational.

 

....................

 

Thumb said: I've heard similar sentiments to what you wrote but lo and behold after a few years there is a partial admission from an atheist dude that God is there, I do not even know if he remembers that he said that though; he is ever saying that God is imaginary and he's always touting science and scientists.

 

 

 

 

Cits said: If he is "ever saying that God is imaginary," then you may have misunderstood what was said that you claim was a "partial admission... that God is there." Even if you didn't, this is just one person, and you can't broadbrush every atheist as being exactly the same as this individual.

 

As I said (in the very text you were replying to when you said this), there are some who call themselves atheists but actually do believe to some degree or other. To say that those people represent all atheists is as ridiculous as saying that Mennonites represent all Christians. It simply ain't so.

 

Thumb: It was a full admission, he took it down after though, maybe he's frightened and regrets that he did it. I did not say he is the standard for all atheists ( I kept saying that salvation is individualized. Everyone had different paths). Pharaoh represents TRUE atheism and there will be a lot of mini Pharaohs out there. No matter what, they will not believe, I am not pointing out any individuals when I say that. It's like me saying that there will be "goats" in the church but I am not supposed to condemn anybody for that is God's job.

 

 

 

 

....................

 

Thumb said: You no longer internalize the concepts and based on what you have been writing about Christian doctrines you don't believe them therefore the gospel is now hidden from you. Gospel means good news and if someone truly understands it they will embrace it and not be aversed to it unless they're mad. (Hell was initially prepared for the crazy devils and NOT humans )

 

Cits said: You're being ridiculous, Thumby. I still understand what I understood as a believer. Your argument is just as silly as saying that one who leaves Islam after decades as a Muslim can no longer understand Muslim concepts.

 

The irony here, though, is that I used to think pretty much the same thing that you express, Thumby. I used to believe that one who "truly understands" would "embrace" it. The problem, though, is that the more and more I truly understood, the more I realized that it is not true. You're still at the elementary level of assuming that it's true, while I've moved on to reality.

 

Thumb said: The devils know the bible from back to front, they understand it, they even know their fate: "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Matt 8:29 So what?

 

They CHOOSE not to obey.

 

 

Cits said: Once again, you're trying to use the Bible to prove your point to someone who has studied the Bible for years and has come to the realization that it is loaded with mythology. Will you ever learn that you'll never prove anything that way?

 

As for me, I have not chosen to disobey, I simply don't believe. As such, this doesn't apply to me (as it seems you were implying).

Thumb: My point was studying the bible and "knowing" what is says does not always lead one in a saving relationship with God if one is not CONTINUALLY willing to let God teach them and follow biblical precepts.

 

 

Yes, to you the bible is foolishness but to the believer it is the power of God.

 

.................................

 

 

 

 

 

Thumb: I did not say the question was about praying for atheists, I was saying that a # of atheists remain willfully ignorant about biblical explanations because they DELIBERATELY CHOOSE to not believe in freedom of choice.

 

People who do not believe in God and or His Word do so because they do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it.

Cits said: Do some atheists remain willfully ignorant of the Bible? Of course. However, most of them would not be doing so for the reason you assume, but rather because they see no need to waste time immersing themselves in superstition.

 

I do not believe the Bible is God's word, but that is NOT because of not wanting it to be. It is simply because the Bible is loaded with problems that render it to be the hodgepodged, erroneous human work that it is.

 

Once again, mischaracterizing your audience will not get you anywhere in convincing them to believe your worldview!

 

Thumb: Many atheists, unlike regular secularists, spend a lot of time immersing themselves in biblical debates in order to ask questions and to do this when the believer opens their virtual mouth to answer:

 

 

 

There actually are a # of disingenuous ones out there (I've seen it! They APPEAR to be sincere when asking but they really aren't, it's a sort of exercise to DELIBERATELY harden their heart ). Some forums I will not join, some atheists behave like complete egotistical jerks ( some people on this website agree: Does Anyone Else Find Internet Atheists...annoying? ) and SOME have no qualms about lying. Even then, their rebellion is most likely caused by some sort of negative emotions and from certain misunderstandings and they just don't love the truth enough to be saved.

 

Yes, you will say that Christians do the above things too ( I've seen some Christians on the net bash atheists and was like, ouch! ) but Christians have a guide book which tells them not to.

 

On a positive note, there are some tolerant and polite atheists out there who are able to be respectful to believers and listen to their views without condescension and ridicule.

 

 

................................

 

 

 

Thumb said: I do not want to believe in Hinduism so I choose not to believe it.

 

Cits said: Are you serious? You mean that Hinduism is completely viable and is just as likely as Christianity to be true, but you simply choose one over the other like a menu option? If so, then your faith in Christianity is weaker than mine was!

 

Thumb: That is not what I meant and you KNOW it. I told you in previous posts that where I grew up there was Hinduism and I realized that idolatry, which Hinduism entails, was not a viable option for me. God had already reached me without any idols.

 

...................................

 

 

 

 

Thumb said: Most humans want to believe in a powerful , loving God, atheists are nuts! People either choose to not believe in God if they misunderstand Him and/or they don't want to follow His commandments.

Cits said: There you go mischaracterizing people again. For your information, Thumby, MANY atheists would LOVE to "believe in a powerful, loving God." I myself, as an agnostic with atheist leanings, would absolutely LOVE for there to be such a being. Unfortunately, just wanting it to be does not make it so, and the evidence simply doesn't support the notion. I did not choose to stop believing, and I did not decide that I didn't want to follow divine commandments.

 

By the way, there are "nuts" in any group, but the nuttiest people I've come across are religious, while the most rational people I've come across tend to be atheists or agnostics.

 

Thumb: We agree with each other about humans, including atheists, wanting a loving God. However, a lot of people ( including professed believers, like my friend who knows his bible and has been a Christian for over 60 years) want God to save them IN their sins and not from their sins.

SOME people who are not in the category of genuinely misunderstanding God, will eventually go into cognitive dissonance in order to hang on to and JUSTIFY their sins by saying God does not exist and sinful behavior is just natural and they are mere animals. I am not calling out any individuals here, I'm just sayin' that's how fallen humans operate.

 

.......................................

 

 

2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

 

Thumb said: Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

 

Cits said: First, no I do not "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box." I simply believe in using logic and reason to evaluate religious claims. Your accusation against me is as shallow as it would be for a Muslim claim that you "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box" because you reject Islam.

 

Second, your rationalization has nothing to do with the issue. Even if your claim about atheists was true, it is not those people whom you are praying to. If your prayer to God does not motivate him to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help, then your prayer has no motivating power on God, and therefore the prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

Third, the question was not even specifying praying for atheists. It pertains to praying for people for anything. It could be praying for a nonchristian to be saved, or it could pertain to praying for a Christian to grow in faith, or it could be praying for someone's physical healing, or someone's marital struggles, or someone's financial woes, etc. It doesn't matter what the prayer is about, it's simply the issue of praying for others.

 

Fourth, your rationalization is wrong. Atheists do not "deliberately disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to not accept the gift of eternal life." One cannot choose to believe that which he/she is convinced is not true.

 

For example, if you really think that beliefs can be reduced to a simple choice, then I challenge you to, for a moment at least, choose to believe Islam. Now, how did that work for you? Oh, not so well? OK, let's try a different one. For a moment, choose to believe Hinduism. Did that work better? Oh, it didn't? Well, let's try one more. For just a moment, choose to believe atheism. Now, did that work for you? That one didn't either? Hmmmmm..... You see, Thumby, you can't just choose to believe something that you're convinced is not true. This is a major reason why your "freedom of choice" argument is wrong.

 

 

Thumb said: I did not say the question was about praying for atheists, I was saying that a # of atheists remain willfully ignorant about biblical explanations because they DELIBERATELY CHOOSE to not believe in freedom of choice.

 

People who do not believe in God and or His Word do so because they do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it. I do not want to believe in Hinduism so choose not to believe it.

 

 

 

 

What do these texts mean?:

 

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ( This is a summary of the bible)

 

 

 

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Rev 22:17

 

Cits said: Aren't you supposed to be the Holy Spirit filled person here? You shouldn't need to ask what these passages mean, especially given their prominence in Christianity. OK, I know, you want to test me.

 

First off, your assertion at the end of the first quote is wrong. John 3:16 is not a summary of the Bible, it is merely a basic tenet of standard Christianity (which is New Testament theology). Regardless of that, though, let me respond to your inquiry by presenting you with something that I wrote when I was a believer. This was published in a church newsletter and later a district newsletter. Anyway, it represents how I viewed Christianity. Here it is:

Thumb: I quoted the conversation IN CONTEXT so anybody who reads it can follow it.

The point I was trying to make was pertaining to your question about God wanting to help everybody and which you obviously knew.

 

 

......................

 

Cits said: This was published in a church newsletter and later a district newsletter. Anyway, it represents how I viewed Christianity. Here it is: ...

 

 

Is that good enough for you, Thumby?

 

Thumb: Very nice

 

I know you wanted to either demonize God or demonize prayer with your loaded questions. ( Bro', I tell it like it is and you atheistic types can take it ) Based on my answer you got to seemingly demonize prayer-- never mind that you are putting your own atheist spin on the biblical teachings.

 

............................

 

 

 

Thumb said: God's SHEEP ....

 

Cits said: I know all about the "sheep" analogies, so I'm not going to waste time and space on your lengthy rehashing that goes nowhere.

 

Thumb: Yeah I know that you are "too big" for God and His Word but His sheep will not get weary with those analogies

[Thumbelina]

Re Post # 226

 

 

 

Cits said: First, I am not "factoring out freedom of choice." As I demonstrated in the example in my comments above this, you need to stop oversimplifying beliefs into mere choices.

 

Second, it doesn't matter whether or not "God can force everybody to be obedient robots." That has no bearing on the question. The question was simply asking if your prayer affects God's power. If your prayer cannot boost God's power, then your prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

(As a side note, the only reason I asked this question is because it's the only way one could argue for the prayer being effective after acknowledging that the prayer doesn't inform God of anything or motivate him to do something he otherwise wouldn't have chosen to do.)

 

Third, you say that God "permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans." The first part ("our lives") doesn't pertain to the issue, since the questions were asked in the context of the issue of praying for others. Regarding the second part ("the lives of our fellow humans"), you may indeed ask God to intervene, but you have rendered such prayers as ineffective by answering "No" to the questions that were asked.

 

So, in summary, praying for others has no effect, and your very answers to the questions that were asked attest to this fact.

 

 

Thumb said: Eh, see my sheep analogy and stop eating grass with a bunch of pesticide in it.

BTW, you are switching up your questions in a subtil way, God is all powerful, He does not need us but because of His loving and kind nature He wants His creatures to love and serve Him because they trust Him and to a certain extent He wants to appeal to their intellect.

 

Cits said: So, I show serious flaws in your arguments, and the best you can come back with is an analogy of pesticide laden grass? This shows that you have no rebuttal for what I've shown to be serious problems with the concept of praying for others.

 

BTW, no I did not switch the questions. The yes/no questions remained exactly the same as they were at first.

 

Your final comments above regarding God being all powerful and everything else represent typical Christian concepts, but they have no bearing on the issue at hand. As was demonstrated by your own answers to the questions that were posed, your prayers for people have absolutely no effect whatsoever. They don't inform God of anything he didn't know, nor do they motivate him to help someone he otherwise would not have helped, nor do they empower him in a way he was not empowered before. Such prayers do NOTHING other than make you feel good! There is no power in such a prayer.

 

As far as God appealing to our intellect, I agreed with that as a Christian. That's one of the reasons why I studied the Bible and apologetics a lot. I wanted to "grow in grace and knowledge" and I wanted to "always be prepared to give an answer." Yet, it was the very studying that was supposed to boost my faith that ended up destroying it.

 

Thumb: This is the question that you asked and I CHOSE to answer because it was sort of fair:

"Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?"

 

You then decided to change that question into a blatant loaded question by implying that you asked this:

 

"prayer doesn't ... motivate him to do something he otherwise wouldn't have chosen to do."

 

I would not have answered that question as a yes or no question had you asked it like that.

Prayer motivates God, it gives Him permission to work in our lives! He ALREADY made a PROVISION for ALL men to be saved! (Grace) Prayer is an indication of the human accepting that provision (through FAITH ). I told you AGAIN and AGAIN that God invites ALL but prayer gives God the OK to work with us.

 

The bible is REPLETE with commands to pray and getting results is conditional upon the people sincerely praying for God's intervention.

 

Eg.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chron 7:14

 

 

Some people continually factor out freedom of choice because they want to do like Adam and blameshift. God works with people who humble themselves ( that's why God won't manifest Himself to some people, their egos are just too big ) and open their hearts to Him by praying. People humble themselves when they realize that they are not God and they don't have all the answers, they then see a NEED for God.

 

..................

 

 

 

 

Thumb: I did not speak to Citsonga much on here so how did I make false accusations against you "many times"?

 

Cits said: I said "multiple times," not "many times." Regardless, though, allow me to refresh your memory. Skimming back through the thread, here are a few false accusations you've specifically directed at me (I've compiled them into one quote):

 

 

 

 

They are loaded questions with the goal of demonizing God.

You are trying to limit God with semantics

you put your own reasoning above what the [edit] Word of God says, Cain did that too. In my analogy I was talking about your attitude

you are on Satan's side

 

And here are a few general comments that are also false accusations:

 

 

 

dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf

Satanists by default because they are not actively following God

atheism IS WORSE than Satanism

Everyone innately knows that God exists.

do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it.

 

 

 

Thumb: Yes, you did say multiple times, sorry about that.

They are not false accusations, maybe I should have left out the subjective word "you" is SOME instances. Some of them are justified, I saw through your shenanigans, Mister! But I see that the us in us dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf was left out; I include myself in the us. I explained that I was saying what the bible says, you believe it to be myth so why care what it says about scoffers? You may not care but someone else might and if the bible gives them peace, what's the harm?

 

I realize you don't care, Cits so I probably won't be quoting the bible to you but it's been somewhat fun tussling with you.

 

Adios.

[Thumbelina]

A baby cries so loud when it is born because it knows what is coming, a basically godless world with a lot of evil.

 

 

I want book chapter and verse on this one.

 

lol. I was bothering Agi, man.

[Thumbelina]

I don't know who or what BAA is

 

Your alter ego?

 

I am sorry for your hurts.

[Prestissimo]

I argue against atheistic propaganda and deliberate (in some cases) misunderstanding of the bible with the intent of demonizing the Christian God. If someone does not believe it and does not WANT to believe it then they should not misinterpret it and pretend that that is the right interpretation; or if they pretend it is the right interpretation in order to brainwash themselves out of accepting Christianity, they should not write it down and spread it around as fact.

 

Great. You tell me thumbelina how to misinterpret ALL of the following Bible verses. I'm not allowed to quote text from another website, so please do me the favor to just click the link yourself:

http://www.evilbible...dering_Children

 

Nobody needs to demonize the "Christian God". The bible does a good job at that.