Why Are You Christians So Insincere With Your Hell Beliefs?

[Sirelien]

Oh Thumbelina, you disappoint me! Have you really nothing to say in light of my articulate, rational and intelligent responses to your questions?

[Thumbelina]

Oh Thumbelina, you disappoint me! Have you really nothing to say in light of my articulate, rational and intelligent responses to your questions?

 

 

Answers are in the appropriate thread: http://www.ex-christ...post__p__716436

 

Quit tooting your own horn, man. You don't want to sound like Dawkins.

[Sirelien]

Oh Thumbelina, you disappoint me! Have you really nothing to say in light of my articulate, rational and intelligent responses to your questions?

 

 

Answers are in the appropriate thread: http://www.ex-christ...post__p__716436

 

Quit tooting your own horn, man. You don't want to sound like Dawkins.

 

Ah, so you have. Very well, I shall respond in due course.

 

And you think I'm sounding like Dawkins? Thank you, I'm flattered! It is something of an honour to be compared to such a rational, intelligent, articulate man who speaks out fearlessly against irrational, discriminatory and immoral beliefs!

[agnosticator]

I need to ask a being higher than you; He can make the naughty nice,.....

 

I asked the being bigger than me, and the answer was: Everyone is both naughty and nice. We have to choose between the two, but both are present in everything, like Yin and Yang.

 

P.S. I'm not ignoring people ( I do care about their souls), I have to pray earnestly for oddbird's orbs (two sets, spiritual and physical), Centauri's orbs, FG's orbs, EVERYBODY"S orbs.

 

Orbs? Maybe it's backscatter, or paranormal ghost orbs floating in the air! Their eyes have already been opened. No prayer needed.

[Thumbelina]

I brought this question here from this thread:

 

Post # 64 http://www.ex-christ...322#entry721322

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I gave you answers based on what the bible says, you do not take the bible as the word of God so you won't be able to understand certain concepts, it will be foolishness to you.

 

Cits said: Also, don't forget that for decades I did "take the Bible as the word of God," so I DO understand the concepts. The difference between us is that I have grown in my understanding and realize that it's mythology, while you are still delusional.

 

 

 

 

Thumb: You no longer internalize the concepts and based on what you have been writing about Christian doctrines you don't believe them therefore the gospel is now hidden from you. Gospel means good news and if someone truly understands it they will embrace it and not be aversed to it unless they're mad. (Hell was initially prepared for the crazy devils and NOT humans )

 

 

 

 

 

Cits said: Anyway, true or false questions must be answered as true or false. Otherwise, the questions have NOT been answered; they've merely been dodged.

If you want to make amends in this thread, then answer the questions I posed in this thread. Here they are again:

Regarding praying for others,

(1) Are you informing God of something that he did not know about the person?

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

These are yes or no questions, Thumby, so you *must* answer them with either "yes" or "no," or else you have NOT answered them. Got it?

 

 

Thumb: *chuckle* You are trying to limit God with semantics and it just does not work like that.

It's like someone asking a Christian to answer true or false to this: All atheists are rebellious so and so's.

 

Technically the answer is true. However there is a but to that answer, Jesus has been enlightening judgmental me about reframing. I don't have the big picture and I do not know people's history or even their genetic makeup so while I may see a lot of atheist hubris heads on the net (tend to be rude, arrogant and condescending), God says to reframe the picture and see that MAYBE some of them were hurt by religion in the past. Maybe some had authoritarian parents, maybe some of them were taught downright stupidness about God's character, maybe some of them come from a family of alcoholics or communists, maybe they had a tragedy that shattered their faith etc.So, this may cause them to act that way because they don't know that Jesus loves them and true genuine love comes from God.

 

 

The answer to # 1 is No.

 

Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

Again, technically the answer to # 3 is No and this answer also has a but attached to it. Please stop factoring out freedom of choice, God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love. Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

 

Eg. There's a Christian lady (former addict) who ministers to people who are addicted to ..., fill in the blank, and she tells people when they step in and pray for their drug addicted family members God will intervene and permit turbulence to come into their lives and instances where they can see His Providences. She warns them NOT to bail them out so they can see their need for God. Some of them actually do have GENUINE jail house conversions.

 

I told you before that salvation is individualized.

 

Now, God knocks on everybody's heart but a lot of people do not respond to that gentle knock. God keeps on gently knocking but us dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf. The devils are NOT omniscient or omnipresent so sometimes they lose track of some people, they tend to take great notice of the people who are truly resisting them. So, some people are on the devils' side without being aware of it because they are not on God's side. God does not force worship but He stipulated in His Word that prayer was the avenue we are to use in order for Him to work with and through us. Prayer is an act of FAITH and faith is how we accept God's gift. The disciples did not pray earnestly enough at one point and were unable to get a desired result and Jesus told them that.

 

There are some missionaries in Nepal and one missionary said that there's a lay worker from Nepal that got possessed by a demon right after she got married, the demon throws her all about the room. The missionary said that they pray A LOT for the lady and it subdues the demon for awhile but ultimately that lady has to decide to surrender EVERYTHING to Jesus in order to be COMPLETELY free. The lady has some pet sin that she would not let go so therefore the missionaries can't do more for her and God will not force Her to worship Him. If the missionaries did not intervene then the woman who was not resisting the devil might have been killed already and her fate would have been sealed.

 

 

 

 

Thumb said: I don't mean you are a murderer, I meant that you put your own reasoning above what the [edit] Word of God says, Cain did that too. In my analogy I was talking about your attitude and not your deeds.

 

Cits said: I do not put my own reasoning above a word of god. The Bible is *NOT* the word of God. Your comment is just as silly as a Muslim saying that you put your own reasoning above the word of God because you don't believe the Quran.

Beyond that, the only "attitude" I have is that I care about truth. When I believed that Christianity was truth, I followed it (thinking I was following God). Now that I realize that it is not truth, I cannot follow it. Saying that I have copped some "attitude" is a false accusation, Thumby. Do you really think that a holy, righteous God would be pleased with you making false accusations?

 

 

 

 

Thumb: You care about the truth but believers have to LOVE it.

 

 

....................

 

 

Thumb said: Maybe you're not listening to God at this time, Cits. and your # 4 reason shows that

 

Cits said: It's impossible to listen to a God who is not speaking. If a deity exists and wants to communicate with me, then I am completely open to it.

 

 

Thumb: God IS speaking, ipso facto.

 

...........................

 

Thumb said: I did not say you were satanists, I said following Satan is a default position from not following God that people get caught up in and it's a situation they are not aware of.

 

Cits said: OK, this is an outright lie. For anyone wanting to see that Thumby DID call us "Satanists," this is what she said:

Thumb said: Yeah, there are fake Satanists who are really Satanists by default because they are not actively following God and there are the real Satanists, some of whom sacrifice humans.

 

Link: http://www.ex-christ...852#entry713852 (http://www.ex-christ...852#entry713852)

 

 

 

 

Thumb: Cits, you took what I said out of context and I think you did that with the bible too which is why you're off on this current tangent. The conversation was going like this:

 

 

ConureDelSol: You realize that most who are considered Satanists are atheists that are making a mockery of Christianity right? That's not to say there aren't serious ones out there, but most followers of Anton LaVey were atheistic/deistic satanists.

 

http://en.wikipedia....aVeyan_Satanism

 

 

To which I responded with:

Yeah, there are fake Satanists who are really Satanists by default because they are not actively following God and there are the real Satanists, some of whom sacrifice humans.

 

......

 

Thumb: Do you guys practice LaVeyan Satanism? I knew of the people who are mockers and who don't really believe what they are doing but they really are Satanists by default.

 

Cits, I have been very consistent since I have been here in saying that atheism IS WORSE than Satanism, it is the WORST belief ever; Satanism is actually a step up rofl.

 

 

 

Cits said: Thumby, since you like to quote the Bible, here's a quote for you:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Better watch out, liar!

 

Thumb: Why Cits, easy going, laid back you is getting kinda feisty, have you been hanging out with the wrong crowd? Are they having a bad influence on you? I did not lie but I highlighted one of the type of sins that can cause people to be lost.

 

 

................

 

Thumb: The above was my initial response and I just saw your edited version which is:

 

Cits said: Looking back at it, I see that you were apparently referring specifically to those who pretend to be Satanists. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

Regardless, though, we nonbelievers are not following Satan any more than you're following the Boogie Man.

 

[EDIT: Of course, the statement does carry an implication that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists," in which case you would be calling all of us nonbelievers "Satanists." So, was that a misstatement on your part, or were you lying when you said that you didn't call us "Satanists"?]

 

 

Thumb: I accept your apology. I was thinking if you can reread my post and spot a misunderstanding on your part then maybe you can do the same with the bible. I explained what I meant in my initial response. I was my usual sassy self there but please note, I did and do say that I'm not condemning atheists, I say what the bible says but with some umph

 

 

 

 

 

 

...............

 

Thumb said: Please understand that I believe the bible and I do see the devil as wanting to destroy you and I do not want that.

 

Cits said: Oh, I fully understand that you believe the Bible and that you visualize things based on it. People of ALL religions visualize things through the teachings of their religions. That does not make those (including your) religions and visualizations true.

 

Thumb: There's this atheist who was needling a Christian about her beliefs and he was asking her, you believe in all the bible, all the miracles etc? She told him that she did believe it indeed. He said so you believe in Jonah and the fish and that Jonah will be in heaven? She said yes and when she gets to heaven she will ask him about his experience. Atheist then says "What if he's not in heaven but in the other place?" She said " Then you can ask him!"

 

 

 

The God of the bible/Christianity knows the future and all other gods are phonies.

[Thumbelina]

From post # 67 in this thread: http://www.ex-christ...post__p__721350

 

 

 

Cits said: If belief brought understanding, then all believers would have the same understanding. With countless denominations of Christians, the evidence obviously indicates otherwise. People like Thumby don't care about evidence, though; they just care about twisting things to try to get them to fit their preconceived notions.

That is your personal opinion,Cits. Christians use/ought to use the bible to measure truth and the bible says that people learn and grow at different paces.

 

2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

Some people believe but do not obey. Even the devils believe God exists, does that make them Christians?

 

Do all students in a class learn exactly at the same pace, get the same questions right on a test? Do all students in the school know everything at the same time, do the 1st graders know all that the 5th graders know? No.Therefore it is not logical to think that they would, just like it is not logical to think Christians will grow at exactly the same pace, no?

[centauri]

God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love.

God, via predestination, does make the choices for at least some people.

That's a form of force, which contradicts your use of the word "love".

 

Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

You're contradicting the Bible.

God not only permits, he also directs the actions as he sees fit, according to his divine will.

Your "freedom of choice" talking point is flawed.

 

So, some people are on the devils' side without being aware of it because they are not on God's side.

That would put you in serious jeopardy.

You're certainly not on the side of the Hebrew deity.

[centauri]

God says to reframe the picture and see that MAYBE some of them were hurt by religion in the past. Maybe some had authoritarian parents, maybe some of them were taught downright stupidness about God's character, maybe some of them come from a family of alcoholics or communists,

The early Christians were communists.

[mymistake]

God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love.

God, via predestination, does make the choices for at least some people.

That's a form of force, which contradicts your use of the word "love".

 

 

How could I have acted this stupid? Christians are perfectly happy believing that we are robots to sin. And this state of being robots came about because Eve was tricked by a crafty snake when she had no knowledge of good or evil in a garden where God set up the whole thing up. But they turn right around and say God won't make us robots.

[bornagainathiest]

Thumbelina wrote...

 

"That is your personal opinion,Cits. Christians use/ought to use the bible to measure truth and the bible says that people learn and grow at different paces."

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yes, that is your personal opinion, Cits... but Thumbelina uses the Bible to measure truth - so she's right and you're wrong.

Capiche?

 

So when she writes..."God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love"...she's using the Bible correctly to measure the truth. If she says that God honors our free will and doesn't predestine some folks for heaven and some for hell, then she's not just expressing her personal opinion - she's typing out God's truth, as correctly measured by the Bible. Got that?

 

Hmmm.

Well it looks like many other "True" Christians also use the Bible correctly to measure the truth.

So why is that they don't all agree?

 

 

PREDESTINATION IS BIBLICAL AND IS CHRISTIAN

 

http://www.ccel.org/...dest.iii.i.html

http://www.reformed....SE#A%20TREATISE

http://www.covenante...estination.html

http://www.mslick.co...destination.htm

http://www.gotquesti...estination.html

http://www.allaboutg...destination.htm

http://gamc.pcusa.or...predestination/

http://www.the-highw...ticleAug02.html

http://pastormark.tv...on-and-election

http://www.orluthera...ml/trelect.html

http://www.revneal.o...ings/calvin.htm

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2zan0002.htm

 

 

PREDESTINATION IS NOT BIBLICAL AND IS NOT CHRISTIAN

 

http://www.christian...predestination/

http://www.apologeti...-Predestina.pdf

http://orthodoxinfo....n.aspx?print=ok

http://www.catholics...estination.html

http://new.gbgm-umc....ley/sermons/58/

http://www.desiringg...-he-predestined

http://www.spurgeon....ermons/0241.htm

http://www.jesus-is-...destination.htm

http://www.biblebeli...sm/kjcprede.htm

http://people.cis.ks.../calvinism.html

http://www.gospelway...destination.php

http://www.christian...b/acb-t008.html

 

NEWSFLASH!

 

Whatever Thumbelina writes is just her personal opinion and it's no more and no less valid than yours or anyone else's, Citsonga.

 

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they know the real truth of God's word.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have been guided into the truth by the Holy Spirit.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have used the Bible correctly to measure the truth.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that other Christians of different opinions are preaching false doctrines.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them is being deceived by Satan.

 

Guess what?

It's ALL crap!

 

Don't listen and don't believe Thumbelina when she claims to be telling God's word like it is. She's only expressing her own personal opinion - no more and no less.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[midniterider]

 

So God practices moral relativism.

 

No, we all deserve death but He leans on His compassionate and merciful nature to pardon us because Jesus paid the penalty that we deserve.

 

I was created in God's image and likeness therefore I do not deserve death. I look like and am like God. It says so in da bible. :-)

 

Please reread your response and tell me why it really makes no sense, I'll highlight a hint. While you're at it please answer the questions in this post: To All Of God's Critics.

 

Jesus was created by god also. Jesus was created..ruh roh! But you know I don't really believe any of the bible stuff. I just enjoy using it against you. Unfortunately for me, the Christian can flex the meaning of the bible into exactly the opposite of what it says or whatever they want it to mean. So it is pretty much a waste of time arguing bible stuff with a Christian. 2+2=5 in this case, 2+2 = 7 in some other case, 2+2 =9 next week.

[midniterider]

 

2012 is coming and people make New Year's resolutions, so how 'bout you, Centauri et al put away all superfluity of naughtiness, huh?

 

... maybe you could make a resolution about being a bit more accepting of other peoples points of view?? Or maybe even expanding your knowledge out of its tiny nutshell?

 

The way you act one would think I want to legislate Christianity. I assure you I do NOT, I believe in freedom of choice.

 

If you believe in freedom of choice then why are you posting Christian biased posts in an Ex-Christian forum? You believe in letting people believe what they want....but you'll pray for those people, right? :-)

 

If you believe in freedom of choice why not encourage the people here to find their own path, whether it be atheism, paganism, buddhism... or whatever?

 

 

Please reread your response and tell me why it really makes no sense Try putting on your Christian googles for a sec.

 

Nah, I had to take off my Christian goggles 10 years ago. They were not allowing me to see the beauty of life. They were all pitted from the gravel of Christian doctrine, of Christian dogma, of Christian fear and guilt. So I threw them away. I instead got a pair of agnostic goggles which let in plenty of light. I paid for the scratch proof coating so they wouldnt be damaged by Christianity anymore.

 

Isn't metaphor great?

[Legato]

I may have missed this in the discussion, but isn't there the raw biological reasoning? Human evolution provided our best survival mechanism - our intelligence COMBINED with a very strong need for social bonds/groups. From early man's small groups to clans, etc., we as a species are wired to focus on our immediate groups. This is not to say we cannot think beyond this and for even a brief moment feel the realization that we are all connected/part of the same species, and our sympathy/empathy finds awareness in our minds and sometimes actions. This does take effort though to maintain as our wiring is still for the more immediate members of our group/clan/family/friends. I think this even explains the verse in the bible where Jesus says that even the "wicked" know how to love their own (or something close to that).

 

This is pretty much exactly what I think! We came from a tribal existence where regular contact was maintained with 50-60 people and it still occurs today. You might have 1000+ friends on facebook but only maintain a fraction of those relationships because that's how most (but not all) people are biologically programmed. It's difficult to empathize with starving african kids because they are so distant from us geographically and socially, but as soon as one enters the social circle that can change.

 

You don't see every christian running around prostletyzing in the streets to strangers because it doesn't just work, the only way to alter someone's beliefs is to establish trust and respect, that's why arguing theology on internet forums is a complete waste of time! Bottom line is that it really has nothing to do with christianity and more to do with millions of years of following a proven strategy for survival and replication.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I only have a few minutes at the moment, so I'll just hit on a couple things quickly:

 

Cits said: Anyway, true or false questions must be answered as true or false. Otherwise, the questions have NOT been answered; they've merely been dodged.

If you want to make amends in this thread, then answer the questions I posed in this thread. Here they are again:

Regarding praying for others,

(1) Are you informing God of something that he did not know about the person?

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

These are yes or no questions, Thumby, so you *must* answer them with either "yes" or "no," or else you have NOT answered them. Got it?

 

 

Thumb: *chuckle* You are trying to limit God with semantics and it just does not work like that.

 

No, I am not "trying to limit God." I am simply using logic to evaluate religious claims.

 

Do you really think that a perfect, righteous God would approve of you making false accusations against people?

 

 

It's like someone asking a Christian to answer true or false to this: All atheists are rebellious so and so's.

 

Technically the answer is true.

 

Wrong answer. The real answer is Flase.

 

To claim that atheists are rebellious against God is to suggest that they believe in God, but those who believe in God are not atheists. It's like saying that you're in rebellion against Santa Claus!

 

Sure, there are some who are rebelling against what they believe to be God, and they may even claim to be atheists, but they really aren't. These are the ones who are most likely to come back to the religion, because deep down they still believe, and therefore they are the ones that Christians are most likely to hear "testimonies" from after they come back. This gives Christians the false impression that their claims of rebellion represent atheism, but they do not.

 

NEWSFLASH!

 

Whatever Thumbelina writes is just her personal opinion and it's no more and no less valid than yours or anyone else's, Citsonga.

 

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they know the real truth of God's word.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have been guided into the truth by the Holy Spirit.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have used the Bible correctly to measure the truth.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that other Christians of different opinions are preaching false doctrines.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them is being deceived by Satan.

 

Guess what?

It's ALL crap!

 

Don't listen and don't believe Thumbelina when she claims to be telling God's word like it is. She's only expressing her own personal opinion - no more and no less.

 

Exactly!

 

And don't worry, I know it's all crap, and I know fully well that there are serious flaws in Thumby's arguments. She merely projects her own personal opinion onto her perceived God, just like all other religious people do.

[★ Citsonga ★]

OK, now I'll address things I didn't get to in my previous post.

 

Thumbelina said: I gave you answers based on what the bible says, you do not take the bible as the word of God so you won't be able to understand certain concepts, it will be foolishness to you.

 

Cits said: Also, don't forget that for decades I did "take the Bible as the word of God," so I DO understand the concepts. The difference between us is that I have grown in my understanding and realize that it's mythology, while you are still delusional.

 

 

Thumb: You no longer internalize the concepts and based on what you have been writing about Christian doctrines you don't believe them therefore the gospel is now hidden from you. Gospel means good news and if someone truly understands it they will embrace it and not be aversed to it unless they're mad. (Hell was initially prepared for the crazy devils and NOT humans )

 

You're being ridiculous, Thumby. I still understand what I understood as a believer. Your argument is just as silly as saying that one who leaves Islam after decades as a Muslim can no longer understand Muslim concepts.

 

The irony here, though, is that I used to think pretty much the same thing that you express, Thumby. I used to believe that one who "truly understands" would "embrace" it. The problem, though, is that the more and more I truly understood, the more I realized that it is not true. You're still at the elementary level of assuming that it's true, while I've moved on to reality.

 

Cits said: Anyway, true or false questions must be answered as true or false. Otherwise, the questions have NOT been answered; they've merely been dodged.

If you want to make amends in this thread, then answer the questions I posed in this thread. Here they are again:

 

Regarding praying for others,

(1) Are you informing God of something that he did not know about the person?

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

 

These are yes or no questions, Thumby, so you *must* answer them with either "yes" or "no," or else you have NOT answered them. Got it?

 

 

Thumb: ...The answer to # 1 is No.

 

Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

Again, technically the answer to # 3 is No and this answer also has a but attached to it. Please stop factoring out freedom of choice, God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love. Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

 

I'll get to your rationalizations later. First, though, let's consider the fact that you have answered "No" to all three questions. By answering this way, you have avoided undermining the alleged omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence of the Christian God.

 

However, at the same time you have completely undermined the effectiveness of praying for someone. If your prayer does not inform God of anything, nor motivate him to do something he otherwise would not have chosen to do, nor have any force that would help him accomplish the task, then the prayer has no effect at all on the situation. Sure, the prayer makes you feel good, but that's pretty much all it does.

 

Thus, you have now rendered praying for people to be completely useless regarding what you're actually praying for.

 

Now let's look at your rationalizations. Here again is the second question and your reply:

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

 

Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

 

First, no I do not "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box." I simply believe in using logic and reason to evaluate religious claims. Your accusation against me is as shallow as it would be for a Muslim claim that you "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box" because you reject Islam.

 

Second, your rationalization has nothing to do with the issue. Even if your claim about atheists was true, it is not those people whom you are praying to. If your prayer to God does not motivate him to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help, then your prayer has no motivating power on God, and therefore the prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

Third, the question was not even specifying praying for atheists. It pertains to praying for people for anything. It could be praying for a nonchristian to be saved, or it could pertain to praying for a Christian to grow in faith, or it could be praying for someone's physical healing, or someone's marital struggles, or someone's financial woes, etc. It doesn't matter what the prayer is about, it's simply the issue of praying for others.

 

Fourth, your rationalization is wrong. Atheists do not "deliberately disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to not accept the gift of eternal life." One cannot choose to believe that which he/she is convinced is not true.

 

For example, if you really think that beliefs can be reduced to a simple choice, then I challenge you to, for a moment at least, choose to believe Islam. Now, how did that work for you? Oh, not so well? OK, let's try a different one. For a moment, choose to believe Hinduism. Did that work better? Oh, it didn't? Well, let's try one more. For just a moment, choose to believe atheism. Now, did that work for you? That one didn't either? Hmmmmm..... You see, Thumby, you can't just choose to believe something that you're convinced is not true. This is a major reason why your "freedom of choice" argument is wrong.

 

Now let's look again at the third question and your rationalization regarding it:

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

 

Again, technically the answer to # 3 is No and this answer also has a but attached to it. Please stop factoring out freedom of choice, God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love. Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

 

First, I am not "factoring out freedom of choice." As I demonstrated in the example in my comments above this, you need to stop oversimplifying beliefs into mere choices.

 

Second, it doesn't matter whether or not "God can force everybody to be obedient robots." That has no bearing on the question. The question was simply asking if your prayer affects God's power. If your prayer cannot boost God's power, then your prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

(As a side note, the only reason I asked this question is because it's the only way one could argue for the prayer being effective after acknowledging that the prayer doesn't inform God of anything or motivate him to do something he otherwise wouldn't have chosen to do.)

 

Third, you say that God "permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans." The first part ("our lives") doesn't pertain to the issue, since the questions were asked in the context of the issue of praying for others. Regarding the second part ("the lives of our fellow humans"), you may indeed ask God to intervene, but you have rendered such prayers as ineffective by answering "No" to the questions that were asked.

 

So, in summary, praying for others has no effect, and your very answers to the questions that were asked attest to this fact.

 

It's like someone asking a Christian to answer true or false to this: All atheists are rebellious so and so's.

 

Technically the answer is true. However there is a but to that answer, Jesus has been enlightening judgmental me about reframing. I don't have the big picture and I do not know people's history or even their genetic makeup so while I may see a lot of atheist hubris heads on the net (tend to be rude, arrogant and condescending), God says to reframe the picture and see that MAYBE some of them were hurt by religion in the past. Maybe some had authoritarian parents, maybe some of them were taught downright stupidness about God's character, maybe some of them come from a family of alcoholics or communists, maybe they had a tragedy that shattered their faith etc.So, this may cause them to act that way because they don't know that Jesus loves them and true genuine love comes from God.

 

In my previous post I pointed out that your answer here is wrong and I explained why it's false. Now I want to address your rationalization that followed your answer.

 

You're referring to the way atheists come off "on the net." I agree that some atheists sound condescending. However, the same is true for some religious people, including Christians. If I had a dime for every time I heard a stupid, condescending joke about atheists being peddled by Christians, and if I had a dime for every time Christians made false accusations against nonbelievers (you yourself have done that to me multiple times), then I'd have quite a chunk of change.

 

I am glad that you're trying to reframe things from a "judgmental" tone, but your list of perceived causes for atheists seeming "condescending" has left out some of the most significant ones: Many atheists are simply sick and tired of superstition being exalted as a default position, they are sick and tired of religious people making fun of them simply because they place evidence and reason over blind faith, and they are sick and tired of religious people slandering them.

 

Considering the way religious people have bashed atheists over and over and over again throughout history, it's no wonder that some would respond in a frustrated manner that you would perceive (falsely in some cases, though rightly in others) as being rude.

 

I told you before that salvation is individualized.

 

I don't specifically recall you telling me that, but why do you think you need to tell me that? I was a Christian for many years, so I know fully well that standard Christian theology says that "salvation is individualized." That's definitely no news flash to me.

 

Now, God knocks on everybody's heart but a lot of people do not respond to that gentle knock. God keeps on gently knocking but us dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf.

 

Nonsense. Many "dang human beings" sought God with open eyes, ears and minds for years and got no response. How could an infinite God not be able to successfully communicate with people who genuinely wanted him to?

 

The devils are NOT omniscient or omnipresent so sometimes they lose track of some people, they tend to take great notice of the people who are truly resisting them. So, some people are on the devils' side without being aware of it because they are not on God's side. God does not force worship but He stipulated in His Word that prayer was the avenue we are to use in order for Him to work with and through us. Prayer is an act of FAITH and faith is how we accept God's gift. The disciples did not pray earnestly enough at one point and were unable to get a desired result and Jesus told them that.

 

"Faith" says it all. If there was solid evidence, then there wouldn't be any need for faith. The fact that faith is required in your religion is indicative of the fact that there is a lack of evidence for your religion.

 

If an all-knowing and all-powerful God really wanted us to know and worship him, then he could prove himself quite easily. That is not saying that he needs to "force worship," but rather that he could make himself clearly known to all in a way that people would have no excuse for not knowing that he is real. The simple fact that this does not happen is a serious problem for a religion claiming that such an infinite God really desires that we know him.

 

There are some missionaries in Nepal and one missionary said that there's a lay worker from Nepal that got possessed by a demon right after she got married, the demon throws her all about the room. The missionary said that they pray A LOT for the lady and it subdues the demon for awhile but ultimately that lady has to decide to surrender EVERYTHING to Jesus in order to be COMPLETELY free. The lady has some pet sin that she would not let go so therefore the missionaries can't do more for her and God will not force Her to worship Him. If the missionaries did not intervene then the woman who was not resisting the devil might have been killed already and her fate would have been sealed.

 

There are all kinds of Christian urban legends like this floating about. If the very same nameless story with no way to research and verify its accuracy was told to you in the context of Islam and Allah, would you believe it?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thumb said: I don't mean you are a murderer, I meant that you put your own reasoning above what the [edit] Word of God says, Cain did that too. In my analogy I was talking about your attitude and not your deeds.

 

Cits said: I do not put my own reasoning above a word of god. The Bible is *NOT* the word of God. Your comment is just as silly as a Muslim saying that you put your own reasoning above the word of God because you don't believe the Quran.

Beyond that, the only "attitude" I have is that I care about truth. When I believed that Christianity was truth, I followed it (thinking I was following God). Now that I realize that it is not truth, I cannot follow it. Saying that I have copped some "attitude" is a false accusation, Thumby. Do you really think that a holy, righteous God would be pleased with you making false accusations?

 

 

Thumb: You care about the truth but believers have to LOVE it.

 

Believers are blinded by lies. I was one of them for many years.

 

 

Thumb said: Maybe you're not listening to God at this time, Cits. and your # 4 reason shows that

 

Cits said: It's impossible to listen to a God who is not speaking. If a deity exists and wants to communicate with me, then I am completely open to it.

 

 

Thumb: God IS speaking, ipso facto.

 

Linking to Bible verses doesn't prove anything, Thumby. I know what the Bible says, and I also know that the Bible is seriously flawed.

 

You should start thinking a little bit. If a Muslim quoted a bunch of Quran verses to prove Islam to you, would you find it convincing? Of course not.

 

In the exact same way, your Bible references don't prove squat to me, especially considering that I have read the entire Bible multiple times, studied it for years, taught Bible studies and Sunday school, memorized hundreds of verses, read apologetics materials, etc., all the while "feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit." My earnest longing to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" was the driving force behind my studies, but they eventually led me to the unwelcome but unavoidable conclusion that it's just a big myth.

 

Thumb said: I did not say you were satanists, I said following Satan is a default position from not following God that people get caught up in and it's a situation they are not aware of.

 

Cits said: OK, this is an outright lie. For anyone wanting to see that Thumby DID call us "Satanists," this is what she said:

Thumb said: Yeah, there are fake Satanists who are really Satanists by default because they are not actively following God and there are the real Satanists, some of whom sacrifice humans.

 

Link: http://www.ex-christ...852#entry713852 (http://www.ex-christ...852#entry713852)

 

 

Thumb: Cits, you took what I said out of context and I think you did that with the bible too which is why you're off on this current tangent.

 

I edited that post shortly after posting it (I guess you saved it for later before I edited it). Here is what I changed it to:

 

OK, I was thinking of this:

 

Yeah, there are fake Satanists who are really Satanists by default because they are not actively following God and there are the real Satanists, some of whom sacrifice humans.

 

Looking back at it, I see that you were apparently referring specifically to those who pretend to be Satanists. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

Regardless, though, we nonbelievers are not following Satan any more than you're following the Boogie Man.

 

[EDIT: Of course, the statement does carry an implication that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists," in which case you would be calling all of us nonbelievers "Satanists." So, was that a misstatement on your part, or were you lying when you said that you didn't call us "Satanists"?]

 

The "EDIT" at the bottom was made later on, which is why I indicated it as an edit, but the preceding comments were edited very shortly after I made the initial post.

 

At any rate, as pointed out in the final "EDIT" above, you did imply that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists." That is not taken out of context, but is exactly what you said.

 

As far as you saying that you think I took the Bible out of context, there is no way that I would have done such a thing. Remember, I wanted to continue believing. It would have been counterproductive to that for me to take things out of context in order to invent problems that weren't really there. No, it was real problems in the Bible that led to my loss of faith.

 

In fact, the biggest thing that opened my mind about the Bible not being true is the fact that authors in the New Testament repeatedly took things from the Old Testament completely out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. In other words, keeping things in context was a huge concern for me!

 

Cits, I have been very consistent since I have been here in saying that atheism IS WORSE than Satanism, it is the WORST belief ever; Satanism is actually a step up rofl.

 

Now you've sunk to the lowest level I've seen. To suggest that those who simply want to follow where the evidence leads are worse than Satanists is incredibly stupid on every level.

 

Thumb: The above was my initial response and I just saw your edited version which is:

 

Cits said: Looking back at it, I see that you were apparently referring specifically to those who pretend to be Satanists. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

Regardless, though, we nonbelievers are not following Satan any more than you're following the Boogie Man.

 

[EDIT: Of course, the statement does carry an implication that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists," in which case you would be calling all of us nonbelievers "Satanists." So, was that a misstatement on your part, or were you lying when you said that you didn't call us "Satanists"?]

 

 

Thumb: I accept your apology. I was thinking if you can reread my post and spot a misunderstanding on your part then maybe you can do the same with the bible. I explained what I meant in my initial response. I was my usual sassy self there but please note, I did and do say that I'm not condemning atheists, I say what the bible says but with some umph

 

OK, I guess you saw that I had changed my comments. I have to wonder why you addressed the previous comments that were quickly changed. At any rate, since you did, I'll leave my reply to your previous comments in tact.

 

Anyway, there is a huge difference between the post I was commenting on and the Bible. I had read your post only once, and it was probably a quick read-over, so there was room for misunderstanding. On the other hand, I spent years and years reading and studying the Bible, memorizing huge passages, seeking God fervently, reading the writings of Christians, going to church, listening to Christian radio broadcasts, all supposedly while being filled with the Holy Spirit, and yet eventually I began to see serious problems with Christianity.

 

Beyond that, I have debated some of the flaws in the Bible and Christianity with Christians (and I am not really counting you, because this has not been much of a debate and hasn't covered much ground, and you have not made much of an attempt to put forth credible arguments). I have not come across anyone who has been able to demonstrate legitimate fault in my understanding of problems in the Bible. I would be more than willing to admit error where error can be found, because my ultimate goal is truth, but the fact is that the Bible problems have shown themselves to be true problems.

 

At any rate, your attempt to equate my understanding of the Bible to a possible misunderstanding of a quickly read post is quite ignorant of the difference between the two. Also, like I pointed out, I really didn't take you out of context, because you did imply that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists" (if you did not mean such, then the error was in your wording).

 

Thumb said: Please understand that I believe the bible and I do see the devil as wanting to destroy you and I do not want that.

 

Cits said: Oh, I fully understand that you believe the Bible and that you visualize things based on it. People of ALL religions visualize things through the teachings of their religions. That does not make those (including your) religions and visualizations true.

 

Thumb: There's this atheist who was needling a Christian about her beliefs and he was asking her, you believe in all the bible, all the miracles etc? She told him that she did believe it indeed. He said so you believe in Jonah and the fish and that Jonah will be in heaven? She said yes and when she gets to heaven she will ask him about his experience. Atheist then says "What if he's not in heaven but in the other place?" She said " Then you can ask him!"

 

The God of the bible/Christianity knows the future and all other gods are phonies.

 

The God of the Quran/Islam is said by Muslims to be true and all other gods are phonies. Anyone of any religion can make whatever claims they like about their religion, but merely claiming something does not make it true. You have not established truth in your assertion, you have merely asserted.

 

(Cute joke, by the way. )

[Thumbelina]

Re Post # 214

 

 

 

Cits said: Anyway, true or false questions must be answered as true or false. Otherwise, the questions have NOT been answered; they've merely been dodged.

If you want to make amends in this thread, then answer the questions I posed in this thread. Here they are again:

Regarding praying for others,

(1) Are you informing God of something that he did not know about the person?

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

These are yes or no questions, Thumby, so you *must* answer them with either "yes" or "no," or else you have NOT answered them. Got it?

 

 

Thumbelina said: ... It's like someone asking a Christian to answer true or false to this: All atheists are rebellious so and so's.

 

Technically the answer is true.

 

Cits said: Wrong answer. The real answer is Flase.

 

To claim that atheists are rebellious against God is to suggest that they believe in God, but those who believe in God are not atheists. It's like saying that you're in rebellion against Santa Claus!

 

Sure, there are some who are rebelling against what they believe to be God, and they may even claim to be atheists, but they really aren't. These are the ones who are most likely to come back to the religion, because deep down they still believe, and therefore they are the ones that Christians are most likely to hear "testimonies" from after they come back. This gives Christians the false impression that their claims of rebellion represent atheism, but they do not.

 

 

 

Thumb: What's flase? Yeah I know it's a typo

Everyone inately knows that God exists. I've heard similar sentiments to what you wrote but lo and behold after a few years there is a partial admission from an atheist dude that God is there, I do not even know if he remembers that he said that though; he is ever saying that God is imaginary and he's always touting science and scientists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

NEWSFLASH!

 

Whatever Thumbelina writes is just her personal opinion and it's no more and no less valid than yours or anyone else's, Citsonga.

 

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they know the real truth of God's word.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have been guided into the truth by the Holy Spirit.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that they have used the Bible correctly to measure the truth.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that other Christians of different opinions are preaching false doctrines.

Just like Thumbelina, all 'True' Christians believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them is being deceived by Satan.

 

Guess what?

It's ALL crap!

 

Don't listen and don't believe Thumbelina when she claims to be telling God's word like it is. She's only expressing her own personal opinion - no more and no less.

 

 

 

 

Cits said: Exactly!

 

And don't worry, I know it's all crap, and I know fully well that there are serious flaws in Thumby's arguments. She merely projects her own personal opinion onto her perceived God, just like all other religious people do.

 

 

Thumb: You know that athiest, Centauri, you and others need to take a walk down the Damascus Road, it's 2012 already and time is ticking.

I speak to a Christian who has been a Christian for over 60 years and he loves to argue, he tells me that Solomon was not David and Bathsheba's son. He says, no Thumbelina, no Thumbelina, no Thumbelina, no Thumbelina (using my real name of course) when I tell him anything that HE does not agree with. How does one know which one of us is right?

[Thumbelina]

Re Post #215

 

 

Thumbelina said: I gave you answers based on what the bible says, you do not take the bible as the word of God so you won't be able to understand certain concepts, it will be foolishness to you.

 

Cits said: Also, don't forget that for decades I did "take the Bible as the word of God," so I DO understand the concepts. The difference between us is that I have grown in my understanding and realize that it's mythology, while you are still delusional.

 

 

Thumb said: You no longer internalize the concepts and based on what you have been writing about Christian doctrines you don't believe them therefore the gospel is now hidden from you. Gospel means good news and if someone truly understands it they will embrace it and not be aversed to it unless they're mad. (Hell was initially prepared for the crazy devils and NOT humans )

 

Cits said: You're being ridiculous, Thumby. I still understand what I understood as a believer. Your argument is just as silly as saying that one who leaves Islam after decades as a Muslim can no longer understand Muslim concepts.

 

The irony here, though, is that I used to think pretty much the same thing that you express, Thumby. I used to believe that one who "truly understands" would "embrace" it. The problem, though, is that the more and more I truly understood, the more I realized that it is not true. You're still at the elementary level of assuming that it's true, while I've moved on to reality.

 

 

 

 

Thumb: The devils know the bible from back to front, they understand it, they even know their fate: "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Matt 8:29 So what?

 

They CHOOSE not to obey.

 

 

My Christian friend who was Christian for over 60 years truly understands his bible, he thinks that God won't redeem gays and he was SEEMINGLY almost gleeful that a lesbian was raped all night by men who believe lesbianism is wrong (as a female I was highly offended by that ). He also says that whatever happens between a husband and wife has no bearing on the children in said marriage.

 

I say that man just puts his opinions out there and takes a bible text or a quote from someone on TV to support his own PRIVATE beliefs. The bible says that man is not supposed to do that btw.

 

BTW, he pisses me off royally so I avoid calling him, he needs A LOT of prayers. The irony is he likes talking to me. I used to like talking to him until he said those nonsensical things amongst others.

 

 

 

 

............

 

 

 

 

 

Cits said: Anyway, true or false questions must be answered as true or false. Otherwise, the questions have NOT been answered; they've merely been dodged.

If you want to make amends in this thread, then answer the questions I posed in this thread. Here they are again:

 

Regarding praying for others,

(1) Are you informing God of something that he did not know about the person?

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

 

These are yes or no questions, Thumby, so you *must* answer them with either "yes" or "no," or else you have NOT answered them. Got it?

 

 

Thumb said: ...The answer to # 1 is No.

 

Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

Again, technically the answer to # 3 is No and this answer also has a but attached to it. Please stop factoring out freedom of choice, God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love. Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

 

Cits said: I'll get to your rationalizations later. First, though, let's consider the fact that you have answered "No" to all three questions. By answering this way, you have avoided undermining the alleged omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence of the Christian God.

 

However, at the same time you have completely undermined the effectiveness of praying for someone. If your prayer does not inform God of anything, nor motivate him to do something he otherwise would not have chosen to do, nor have any force that would help him accomplish the task, then the prayer has no effect at all on the situation. Sure, the prayer makes you feel good, but that's pretty much all it does.

 

Thus, you have now rendered praying for people to be completely useless regarding what you're actually praying for.

 

 

 

Thumb: Look, I know that that is what you are after and have been after with your loaded questions by limiting answers by requiring yes/no and true/false answers.

I also predicted that you would do the typical atheistic pastime of " Not listenin', just debunkin'"

 

 

 

 

Cits said: Now let's look at your rationalizations. Here again is the second question and your reply:

 

 

(2) Are you persuading God to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help?

 

Thumb said: Technically the answer to # 2 will be No but you want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box; there's a but to this answer; God wants to help EVERYBODY but not everybody CHOOSES to let God help them. Atheists tend to DELIBERATELY disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to NOT accept the gift of eternal life.

 

Cits said: First, no I do not "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box." I simply believe in using logic and reason to evaluate religious claims. Your accusation against me is as shallow as it would be for a Muslim claim that you "want to place God and His purposes for man in a teeny tiny box" because you reject Islam.

 

Second, your rationalization has nothing to do with the issue. Even if your claim about atheists was true, it is not those people whom you are praying to. If your prayer to God does not motivate him to help someone he otherwise would not have wanted to help, then your prayer has no motivating power on God, and therefore the prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

Third, the question was not even specifying praying for atheists. It pertains to praying for people for anything. It could be praying for a nonchristian to be saved, or it could pertain to praying for a Christian to grow in faith, or it could be praying for someone's physical healing, or someone's marital struggles, or someone's financial woes, etc. It doesn't matter what the prayer is about, it's simply the issue of praying for others.

 

Fourth, your rationalization is wrong. Atheists do not "deliberately disregard freedom of choice because they don't want to believe they are choosing to not accept the gift of eternal life." One cannot choose to believe that which he/she is convinced is not true.

 

For example, if you really think that beliefs can be reduced to a simple choice, then I challenge you to, for a moment at least, choose to believe Islam. Now, how did that work for you? Oh, not so well? OK, let's try a different one. For a moment, choose to believe Hinduism. Did that work better? Oh, it didn't? Well, let's try one more. For just a moment, choose to believe atheism. Now, did that work for you? That one didn't either? Hmmmmm..... You see, Thumby, you can't just choose to believe something that you're convinced is not true. This is a major reason why your "freedom of choice" argument is wrong.

 

 

Thumb: I did not say the question was about praying for atheists, I was saying that a # of atheists remain willfully ignorant about biblical explanations because they DELIBERATELY CHOOSE to not believe in freedom of choice.

 

People who do not believe in God and or His Word do so because they do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it. I do not want to believe in Hinduism so I choose not to believe it. Most humans want to believe in a powerful , loving God, atheists are nuts! People either choose to not believe in God if they misunderstand Him and/or they don't want to follow His commandments.

 

 

What do these texts mean?:

 

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ( This is a summary of the bible)

 

 

 

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Rev 22:17

 

 

God's SHEEP look at what the bible says and the bible says that humans are PRONE to run away from God because of their fallen nature. ( All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; ... Isa 53:6 )

 

When a sheep finally looks at the shepherd and they see that God is a good shepherd who wants to love them and take care of them they then want to tell the other wayward sheep out there. The wayward sheep are out there eating grass with A LOT of pesticides in it and having a seemingly good time. The good shepherd calls ALL sheep but MANY sheep IGNORE His call, only few sheep choose to follow Him. When a sheep that is following the shepherd really, really wants its wayward, uber stubborn sister (it's hallucinating and thinks it is a goat ) to be saved, it lets the shepherd know (the shepherd is like Tarzan and can understand 'baa', sheep language). The shepherd knows that the wayward sister sheep has not been responding to His call so he tells that particular sheep to go tell her sister sheep how good He is and let her know that He really is a good shepherd. So, off goes the sheep to tell her sister sheep but sister sheep will not listen. Earnestly, the sheep goes back to the shepherd and lets Him know that although her sister sheep does not listen she still wants them to come join them over where the pasture is pristine and perfect.The shepherd wants to please that sheep and He would just love that wayward sheep to snap out of its stupor and come to Him.

 

The shepherd knows that if the sheep does not have complete mad sheep disease (unpardonable sin) and He allows calamity to befall them then maybe they can see that their stupid self sufficiency is utterly useless. So he permits a baby wolf to get that sister sheep by not protecting her as He had been doing (even though she did not love or want Him) and that baby wolf was practicing hunting and he's not so good at it yet.The baby wolf ends up biting the sheep's leg so the sheep was no longer able to cavort with the other sheep. The sheep then says baa (help) and the shepherd goes over and nurses that sheep back to health and it was fed pure organic grass from the shepherd's pasture and the shepherd played a beautiful flute with good music that did not confuse the sheep and make it act rebellious. The sheep then decided to stay and said, why did I not respond to your call sooner? To which the shepherd lovingly looks at the sheep and said " I am glad you did not CHOOSE to die in that tainted pasture when I have good pasture that will cause you to never die once you eat it perpetually."

 

The shepherd called to ALL the sheep and the sheep that responded to His call tend to want what the shepherd wants which is to save ALL sheep but they, like the shepherd, know that not all sheep will be WILLING to be saved. The shepherd does not want to intimidate the sheep perpetually in order to keep them near Him, He wants them to love and trust Him. He studied psychology as a minor in college and he knows that by enlisting other sheep to reach out to other sheep who they can identify with, will increase the chances of more sheep willingly responding to His call ( He did not want time serving sheep who will only pretend to behave when He is in their eyesight). He also knows that by caring for other sheep, the sheep would not be tempted to become self absorbed, idle and unfruitful. BTW, He is so good that He even found a way to become a sheep Himself so He can identify with them and know what their struggles are.

 

 

............

 

Cits said: Now let's look again at the third question and your rationalization regarding it:

(3) Are you giving God power to help someone he otherwise could not help?

 

Thumbelina said: Again, technically the answer to # 3 is No and this answer also has a but attached to it. Please stop factoring out freedom of choice, God can force everybody to be obedient robots who worship and adore Him but true love does not force and God IS love. Created beings do not give God power but because He allows freedom of choice, He permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans.

 

Cits said: First, I am not "factoring out freedom of choice." As I demonstrated in the example in my comments above this, you need to stop oversimplifying beliefs into mere choices.

 

Second, it doesn't matter whether or not "God can force everybody to be obedient robots." That has no bearing on the question. The question was simply asking if your prayer affects God's power. If your prayer cannot boost God's power, then your prayer has no effect on that dynamic.

 

(As a side note, the only reason I asked this question is because it's the only way one could argue for the prayer being effective after acknowledging that the prayer doesn't inform God of anything or motivate him to do something he otherwise wouldn't have chosen to do.)

 

Third, you say that God "permits us to ask Him to intervene in our lives and the lives of our fellow humans." The first part ("our lives") doesn't pertain to the issue, since the questions were asked in the context of the issue of praying for others. Regarding the second part ("the lives of our fellow humans"), you may indeed ask God to intervene, but you have rendered such prayers as ineffective by answering "No" to the questions that were asked.

 

So, in summary, praying for others has no effect, and your very answers to the questions that were asked attest to this fact.

 

 

Thumb: Eh, see my sheep analogy and stop eating grass with a bunch of pesticide in it.

BTW, you are switching up your questions in a subtil way, God is all powerful, He does not need us but because of His loving and kind nature He wants His creatures to love and serve Him because they trust Him and to a certain extent He wants to appeal to their intellect.

 

 

................

 

Thumbelina said: It's like someone asking a Christian to answer true or false to this: All atheists are rebellious so and so's.

 

Technically the answer is true. However there is a but to that answer, Jesus has been enlightening judgmental me about reframing. I don't have the big picture and I do not know people's history or even their genetic makeup so while I may see a lot of atheist hubris heads on the net (tend to be rude, arrogant and condescending), God says to reframe the picture and see that MAYBE some of them were hurt by religion in the past. Maybe some had authoritarian parents, maybe some of them were taught downright stupidness about God's character, maybe some of them come from a family of alcoholics or communists, maybe they had a tragedy that shattered their faith etc.So, this may cause them to act that way because they don't know that Jesus loves them and true genuine love comes from God.

 

 

Cits said: In my previous post I pointed out that your answer here is wrong and I explained why it's false. Now I want to address your rationalization that followed your answer.

 

You're referring to the way atheists come off "on the net." I agree that some atheists sound condescending. However, the same is true for some religious people, including Christians. If I had a dime for every time I heard a stupid, condescending joke about atheists being peddled by Christians, and if I had a dime for every time Christians made false accusations against nonbelievers (you yourself have done that to me multiple times), then I'd have quite a chunk of change.

 

I am glad that you're trying to reframe things from a "judgmental" tone, but your list of perceived causes for atheists being "condescending" has left out some of the most significant ones: Many atheists are simply sick and tired of superstition being exalted as a default position, they are sick and tired of religious people making fun of them simply because they place evidence and reason over blind faith, and they are sick and tired of religious people slandering them.

 

Considering the way religious people have bashed atheists over and over and over again throughout history, it's no wonder that some would respond in a frustrated manner that you would perceive (falsely in some cases, though rightly in others) as being rude.

 

 

 

Thumb: I did not speak to Citsonga much on here so how did I make false accusations against you "many times"?

Christians have a transcendent moral absolute that shapes character and ethics, atheists have no such thing. Christians are supposed to be angry and sin not when there is injustice but it would seem that atheists are allowed to be angry and sin as long as they do not break civil laws and end up in jail ( I know all atheists don't follow this, I see evidence of atheists being nice, OK; it's just that there is evidence for such beliefs and it is a logical conclusion for survival of the fittest beliefs).

.................

 

Thumbelina said: Now, God knocks on everybody's heart but a lot of people do not respond to that gentle knock. God keeps on gently knocking but us dang human beings tend to be deliberately deaf.

 

Cits said: Nonsense. Many "dang human beings" sought God with open eyes, ears and minds for years and got no response. How could an infinite God not be able to successfully communicate with people who genuinely wanted him to?

 

Thumb: some people have willfully chosen to evolve two mouths and one ear and God can't get a word in.

 

 

............

 

Thumbelina said: The devils are NOT omniscient or omnipresent so sometimes they lose track of some people, they tend to take great notice of the people who are truly resisting them. So, some people are on the devils' side without being aware of it because they are not on God's side. God does not force worship but He stipulated in His Word that prayer was the avenue we are to use in order for Him to work with and through us. Prayer is an act of FAITH and faith is how we accept God's gift. The disciples did not pray earnestly enough at one point and were unable to get a desired result and Jesus told them that.

 

Cits said: "Faith" says it all. If there was solid evidence, then there wouldn't be any need for faith. The fact that faith is required in your religion is indicative of the fact that there is a lack of evidence for your religion.

 

If an all-knowing and all-powerful God really wanted us to know and worship him, then he could prove himself quite easily. That is not saying that he needs to "force worship," but rather that he could make himself clearly known in a way that people would have no excuse for not knowing that he is real. The simple fact that this does not happen is a serious problem for a religion claiming that such an infinite God really desires that we know him.

 

 

Thumb: He ain't want no timeservers, bro'. The devils saw Him and knew of His power but stupidly CHOSE not to respect Him. God wants those who come to Him to have complete faith and trust in Him and He wants them to understand that His commandments are for the benefit of all. Most people like sin and do not want to turn from it. Hey, sin tends to be pleasurable, the ones that are the most rampant i.e., if it wasn't then most folks will not want to commit it.

[Thumbelina]

Re post #216

 

 

 

Thumb said: Maybe you're not listening to God at this time, Cits. and your # 4 reason shows that

 

Cits said: It's impossible to listen to a God who is not speaking. If a deity exists and wants to communicate with me, then I am completely open to it.

 

 

Thumb said: God IS speaking, ipso facto.

 

Cits said: Linking to Bible verses doesn't prove anything, Thumby. I know what the Bible says, and I also know that the Bible is seriously flawed.

 

You should start thinking a little bit. If a Muslim quoted a bunch of Quran verses to prove Islam to you, would you find it convincing? Of course not.

 

In the exact same way, your Bible references don't prove squat to me, especially considering that I have read the entire Bible multiple times, studied it for years, taught Bible studies and Sunday school, memorized hundreds of verses, read apologetics materials, etc., all the while "feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit." My earnest longing to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" was the driving force behind my studies, but they eventually led me to the unwelcome but unavoidable conclusion that it's just a big myth.

 

Thumb: The devils most likely knows the bible verbatim, and ... ? God is more than a feeling, He let me know this one morning when I was complaining to Him that I want back the euphoric feelings He gave me for months on end. When I sought God, I found Him and many people experience this and the bible says this is what will happen. Some people get discouraged when they are taught dubious doctrines, esp those people who have very analytical minds.

 

If you read a recipe book that has recipes from 66 different sources can reading said recipes fill your belly and give you sustenance?

 

Can the food you ate last week, last year or even thirty years ago sustain you today?

...............

 

 

Thumbelina said: Yeah, there are fake Satanists who are really Satanists by default because they are not actively following God and there are the real Satanists, some of whom sacrifice humans.

 

 

Cits said: Looking back at it, I see that you were apparently referring specifically to those who pretend to be Satanists. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

Regardless, though, we nonbelievers are not following Satan any more than you're following the Boogie Man.

 

[EDIT: Of course, the statement does carry an implication that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists," in which case you would be calling all of us nonbelievers "Satanists." So, was that a misstatement on your part, or were you lying when you said that you didn't call us "Satanists"?]

 

The "EDIT" at the bottom was made later on, which is why I indicated it as an edit, but the preceding comments were edited very shortly after I made the initial post.

 

At any rate, as pointed out in the final "EDIT" above, you did imply that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists." That is not taken out of context, but is exactly what you said.

 

As far as you saying that you think I took the Bible out of context, there is no way that I would have done such a thing. Remember, I wanted to continue believing. It would have been counterproductive to that for me to take things out of context in order to invent problems that weren't really there. No, it was real problems in the Bible that led to my loss of faith.

 

In fact, the biggest thing that opened my mind about the Bible not being true is the fact that authors in the New Testament repeatedly took things from the Old Testament completely out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. In other words, keeping things in context was a huge concern for me!

 

 

Thumb: Quit quibbling, man. You implied I said you all were blatant Satanists when I was talking about a specific situation.

I said that a lot of people who are not following God are following Satan inadvertently and yes they are really Satanists, that is a biblical teaching, one is either for God or one is under Satan's rule.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Cits, I have been very consistent since I have been here in saying that atheism IS WORSE than Satanism, it is the WORST belief ever; Satanism is actually a step up rofl.

 

Cits said: Now you've sunk to the lowest level I've seen. To suggest that those who simply want to follow where the evidence leads are worse than Satanists is incredibly stupid on every level.

 

 

Thumb: The evidence points to God, a lot of people are willfully ignorant because they tend to want to follow their own inclinations (even if it is anger, resentment and bitterness).They prefer to eat the pesticide grass. The bible does not say much about atheism, well, because atheism is utterly stupid, God placed eternity in our hearts and we yearn for Him even if we don't recognize it .

...............

 

 

Thumb: The above was my initial response and I just saw your edited version which is:

 

Cits said: Looking back at it, I see that you were apparently referring specifically to those who pretend to be Satanists. I apologize for that misunderstanding.

 

Regardless, though, we nonbelievers are not following Satan any more than you're following the Boogie Man.

 

[EDIT: Of course, the statement does carry an implication that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists," in which case you would be calling all of us nonbelievers "Satanists." So, was that a misstatement on your part, or were you lying when you said that you didn't call us "Satanists"?]

 

 

Thumb: I accept your apology. I was thinking if you can reread my post and spot a misunderstanding on your part then maybe you can do the same with the bible. I explained what I meant in my initial response. I was my usual sassy self there but please note, I did and do say that I'm not condemning atheists, I say what the bible says but with some umph

 

Cits said: OK, I guess you saw that I had changed my comments. I have to wonder why you addressed the previous comments that were quickly changed. At any rate, since you did, I'll leave my reply to your previous comments in tact.

 

Anyway, there is a huge difference between the post I was commenting on and the Bible. I had read your post only once, and it was probably a quick read-over, so there was room for misunderstanding. On the other hand, I spent years and years reading and studying the Bible, memorizing huge passages, seeking God fervently, reading the writings of Christians, going to church, listening to Christian radio broadcasts, all supposedly while being filled with the Holy Spirit, and yet eventually I began to see serious problems with Christianity.

 

Beyond that, I have debated some of the flaws in the Bible and Christianity with Christians (and I am not really counting you, because this has not been much of a debate and hasn't covered much ground, and you have not made much of an attempt to put forth credible arguments). I have not come across anyone who has been able to demonstrate legitimate fault in my understanding of problems in the Bible. I would be more than willing to admit error where error can be found, because my ultimate goal is truth, but the fact is that the Bible problems have shown themselves to be true problems.

 

At any rate, your attempt to equate my understanding of the Bible to a possible misunderstanding of a quickly read post is quite ignorant of the difference between the two. Also, like I pointed out, I really didn't take you out of context, because you did imply that all who "are not actively following God" are "really Satanists" (if you did not mean such, then the error was in your wording).

 

Thumb: I am glad that Christianity teaches me to not be high minded and haughty and to die daily and to ALWAYS have an attitude of a learner and not think that I know everything, otherwise I might be tempted to leave Christianity and God. I am happy to get fresh insight into texts that I studied previously and in which I did not notice certain object lessons. I am glad that God allowed me to grow up around secularism and its immorality so that I would be so appalled by it that it will keep me wanting Him and His holiness. That's been my experience, Cits and God has been able to use it to give me understanding of His Word and thereby I was able to get closer to Him. All I can to is give my own testimony to wayward brother and sister sheep out there.

 

...................

 

 

Thumb said: Please understand that I believe the bible and I do see the devil as wanting to destroy you and I do not want that.

 

Cits said: Oh, I fully understand that you believe the Bible and that you visualize things based on it. People of ALL religions visualize things through the teachings of their religions. That does not make those (including your) religions and visualizations true.

 

Thumb: There's this atheist who was needling a Christian about her beliefs and he was asking her, you believe in all the bible, all the miracles etc? She told him that she did believe it indeed. He said so you believe in Jonah and the fish and that Jonah will be in heaven? She said yes and when she gets to heaven she will ask him about his experience. Atheist then says "What if he's not in heaven but in the other place?" She said " Then you can ask him!"

 

The God of the bible/Christianity knows the future and all other gods are phonies.

 

Cits said: The God of the Quran/Islam is said by Muslims to be true and all other gods are phonies. Anyone of any religion can make whatever claims they like about their religion, but merely claiming something does not make it true. You have not established truth in your assertion, you have merely asserted.

 

(Cute joke, by the way. )

 

Thumb: Eh, in times of relative ease and prosperity people do not see a need for God, all I can say is " Come and see" to people; I invite but it is up to people to respond.

 

I reckon you would sort of like that joke but alas, it's not really a joke

 

Cits, it's not my intent to go into a circular argument with atheistic types who are not listenin' but debunkin'. It was/is my goal to find someone who is at least intellectually honest to actually look at the bible in the way it stipulates so one can avoid private interpretations.

[bdp]

 

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

 

That's just not true.

[agnosticator]

Thumb: The evidence points to God, a lot of people are willfully ignorant because they tend to want to follow their own inclinations (even if it is anger, resentment and bitterness).They prefer to eat the pesticide grass. The bible does not say much about atheism, well, because atheism is utterly stupid,

 

 

Thumb: I am glad that Christianity teaches me to not be high minded and haughty and to die daily and to ALWAYS have an attitude of a learner and not think that I know everything, otherwise I might be tempted to leave Christianity and God.

 

The first paragraph doesn't demonstrate "the attitude of a learner". Lots of assumptions, intolerance, and prejudice.

 

It was/is my goal to find someone who is at least intellectually honest to actually look at the bible in the way it stipulates so one can avoid private interpretations.

 

...especially your private interpretations.

[agnosticator]

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

 

That's just not true.

 

Bingo! I have yet to see a newborn baby or any other primate pray or worship God. Christianity or any other theism is learned, just like language. Talk about an unsupported assertion!

[NEWsong]

Re: Justice vs. Mercy

 

Some people don't deserve mercy. Rapists. Child abusers. Spousal abusers. Murderers. These are people who have given up any and all claim to "mercy" because they don't show any to their victims.

 

Does it get complicated when a doctor causes the death of a repeat child rapist who used his fame and money to avoid punishment?

 

Re: Justice vs. Mercy

 

Some people don't deserve mercy. Rapists. Child abusers. Spousal abusers. Murderers. These are people who have given up any and all claim to "mercy" because they don't show any to their victims.

Does it get complicated when a doctor causes the death of a repeat child rapist who used his fame and money to avoid punishment?

I was just told by a Jewish Christian of many years; that a HOLOCAUST survivor who had "not accepted Yeshua" had died in his sins and she was sad that he was not in heaven but in hell!!!

 

She said this to me; a person who knew and loved him and he was the MOST merciful, loving and generous man I have ever known. According to christian doctrine, because he "did not proclaim faith in Yeshua" then he "must be" in Hell....well, if he is in Hell, I would rather be there too...

 

I also heard an EX MORMON say that she prayed about leaving LDS and prayed "Lord if THESE are YOUR people who will be in Heaven, then send me to Hell, I don't want to be with them"...that is just how I feel about this judgemental UNLOVING and pardon me, UN CHRIST LIKE talk to someone who is mourning the loss of a dear friend.

[centauri]

It was/is my goal to find someone who is at least intellectually honest to actually look at the bible in the way it stipulates so one can avoid private interpretations.

Translation:

intellectually honest = must agree with you

 

By the way, all interpretations are subjective.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thumbelina, I'm going to try to save space by condensing the discussion a little.

Everyone inately knows that God exists.

Here's a tip for you, Thumby. If you really want to convince people of your view, then mischaracterizing them during the process will not help you achieve your goal. Not only do I not know that your God exists, I am 100% convinced that he does not.

 

For clarification, I am not saying that I am 100% convinced that no god exists. I may doubt it, but I don't claim certainty (as a matter of fact, in case you didn't pick up on it, my user name "Citsonga" is merely "agnostic" spelled backwards). When it comes to Yahweh/Jehovah and the Bible, though, I have zero doubt that it is made up. So, when you claim that I actually do know that your God exists, what I DO know for a FACT is that YOU ARE WRONG about me on that matter.

 

Beyond that, the very fact that Christians like you attempt to convince people to believe in your God clearly demonstrates that people don't "innately know" that your God exists. After all, if they knew it, then they wouldn't need convincing.

 

 

 

I've heard similar sentiments to what you wrote but lo and behold after a few years there is a partial admission from an atheist dude that God is there, I do not even know if he remembers that he said that though; he is ever saying that God is imaginary and he's always touting science and scientists.

 

If he is "ever saying that God is imaginary," then you may have misunderstood what was said that you claim was a "partial admission... that God is there." Even if you didn't, this is just one person, and you can't broadbrush every atheist as being exactly the same as this individual.

 

As I said (in the very text you were replying to when you said this), there are some who call themselves atheists but actually do believe to some degree or other. To say that those people represent all atheists is as ridiculous as saying that Mennonites represent all Christians. It simply ain't so.

 

Thumb: The devils know the bible from back to front, they understand it, they even know their fate: "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Matt 8:29 So what?

 

They CHOOSE not to obey.

 

Once again, you're trying to use the Bible to prove your point to someone who has studied the Bible for years and has come to the realization that it is loaded with mythology. Will you ever learn that you'll never prove anything that way?

 

As for me, I have not chosen to disobey, I simply don't believe. As such, this doesn't apply to me (as it seems you were implying).

 

Cits said: I'll get to your rationalizations later. First, though, let's consider the fact that you have answered "No" to all three questions. By answering this way, you have avoided undermining the alleged omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence of the Christian God.

 

However, at the same time you have completely undermined the effectiveness of praying for someone. If your prayer does not inform God of anything, nor motivate him to do something he otherwise would not have chosen to do, nor have any force that would help him accomplish the task, then the prayer has no effect at all on the situation. Sure, the prayer makes you feel good, but that's pretty much all it does.

 

Thus, you have now rendered praying for people to be completely useless regarding what you're actually praying for.

 

 

 

Thumb: Look, I know that that is what you are after and have been after with your loaded questions by limiting answers by requiring yes/no and true/false answers.

I also predicted that you would do the typical atheistic pastime of " Not listenin', just debunkin'"

 

Oh, I've listened to your side substantially. I spent decades listening to your side. I even taught it. I have since come to realize that it is not true.

 

You have followed exactly what I expected: your typical Christian pastime of "not listenin', just preachin'."

 

Thumb: I did not say the question was about praying for atheists, I was saying that a # of atheists remain willfully ignorant about biblical explanations because they DELIBERATELY CHOOSE to not believe in freedom of choice.

 

People who do not believe in God and or His Word do so because they do not WANT to believe it and they therefore CHOOSE not to believe it.

 

Do some atheists remain willfully ignorant of the Bible? Of course. However, most of them would not be doing so for the reason you assume, but rather because they see no need to waste time immersing themselves in superstition.

 

I do not believe the Bible is God's word, but that is NOT because of not wanting it to be. It is simply because the Bible is loaded with problems that render it to be the hodgepodged, erroneous human work that it is.

 

Once again, mischaracterizing your audience will not get you anywhere in convincing them to believe your worldview!

 

I do not want to believe in Hinduism so I choose not to believe it.

 

Are you serious? You mean that Hinduism is completely viable and is just as likely as Christianity to be true, but you simply choose one over the other like a menu option? If so, then your faith in Christianity is weaker than mine was!

 

Most humans want to believe in a powerful , loving God, atheists are nuts! People either choose to not believe in God if they misunderstand Him and/or they don't want to follow His commandments.

 

There you go mischaracterizing people again. For your information, Thumby, MANY atheists would LOVE to "believe in a powerful, loving God." I myself, as an agnostic with atheist leanings, would absolutely LOVE for there to be such a being. Unfortunately, just wanting it to be does not make it so, and the evidence simply doesn't support the notion. I did not choose to stop believing, and I did not decide that I didn't want to follow divine commandments.

 

By the way, there are "nuts" in any group, but the nuttiest people I've come across are religious, while the most rational people I've come across tend to be atheists or agnostics.

 

What do these texts mean?:

 

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ( This is a summary of the bible)

 

 

 

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Rev 22:17

 

Aren't you supposed to be the Holy Spirit filled person here? You shouldn't need to ask what these passages mean, especially given their prominence in Christianity. OK, I know, you want to test me.

 

First off, your assertion at the end of the first quote is wrong. John 3:16 is not a summary of the Bible, it is merely a basic tenet of standard Christianity (which is New Testament theology). Regardless of that, though, let me respond to your inquiry by presenting you with something that I wrote when I was a believer. This was published in a church newsletter and later a district newsletter. Anyway, it represents how I viewed Christianity. Here it is:

 

The Cross of Christ?

 

 

 

With Good Friday and Easter quickly approaching, it is befitting that we followers of Jesus reflect on Christ and His cross. But, then again, was it really His cross?

Let’s go back in time to Jesus’ trial before Pilate (Roman governor over Judea). By this time Jesus had already been betrayed by one of His own disciples (Mark 14:43-52). He had had His mock trial before the Jewish Sanhedrin (Mark 14:53-65). He had been taken to Pilate, who sent Him to Herod (Roman ruler over Galilee), who in turn sent Him back to Pilate! (Luke 23:1-12)

 

The chief priests had been accusing Jesus of many things (Mark 15:3), including the accusation that Jesus was subverting the nation to overthrow Roman authority (Luke 23:2). Pilate responded, saying, “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing deserving death. Therefore, I will punish him and then release him” (Luke 23:14-17). Pilate and Herod had both found Jesus innocent. But what happens next is quite an interesting scene:

 

MARK 15:6-15

 

 

Now it was the custom at the feast to release a prisoner whom the people requested. A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did.

 

“Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, knowing it was out of envy that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.

 

“What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?” Pilate asked them.

“Crucify him!” they shouted.

“Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

 

Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

 

This scene never ceases to amaze me. Here Jesus, who had been falsely accused of trying to overthrow Roman authority but declared innocent of such charges, is sentenced to death by crucifixion. At the same time, Barabbas, who was known to be guilty of the very thing Jesus was accused of (as well as murder), is set free! Barabbas, whose name literally means “son of the father” (bar = son of; abba = father), has been set free from his imprisonment and death sentence by the substitution of the Son of our Heavenly Father! The cross that Jesus was crucified on was actually the cross of Barabbas!

 

This happened because Pilate was apparently concerned that the crowd may get out of hand, but it was all in keeping with God’s predetermined plan (Acts 2:23) to bring about redemption. Just like Barabbas was guilty of sin, so we “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Just as Barabbas was in prison, “Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin” (Galatians 3:22). Just like Barabbas was on death row, so also “the wages of [our] sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Just as Barabbas was set free by the substitution of Jesus, who shed His blood in his place, so has Christ “freed us from our sins by his blood” (Revelation 1:5). So, not only was it Barabbas’ cross, but also yours and mine! Jesus was crucified on our cross! We deserved to be hanging there in agony on that cross!

 

As Jesus was hanging on the cross, He was continually insulted and mocked. “Come down from the cross and save yourself!” the crowd jeered (Mark 15:30). Little did they know that it wasn’t Jesus who was in need of saving.

 

Though it is conceivable that someone might sacrifice his life for the sake of a “good man” (Romans 5:7), “God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). “We have redemption through his blood” (Ephesians 1:7); “we have now been justified by his blood” and “saved from God’s wrath” (Romans 5:9).

 

Praise be to our dear Savior for taking the cross of Barabbas, your cross and my cross, and making “the atoning sacrifice… for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Praise also be to God that the story doesn’t end with the cross and the tomb! Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 28:1-7; Acts 2:32)! And, “just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life” (Romans 6:4). “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). Amen.

 

Is that good enough for you, Thumby?

 

God's SHEEP ....

 

I know all about the "sheep" analogies, so I'm not going to waste time and space on your lengthy rehashing that goes nowhere.