Why Are You Christians So Insincere With Your Hell Beliefs?

[★ Citsonga ★]

I do admit that with the mess this world is in, it is sometimes hard for some people to see God's care.

 

The vast majority of people in the world are not Christians, and these people honestly believe that their views are true. If an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Christian God really existed and wanted a relationship with all of them, then *why* would he be *hiding* from them? What if *you* had been one without the option to believe in Christianity? Would it be fair to hold you accountable for that?

 

Satan's charge is God is selfish and capricious, by God having His disciples defend His character even though they go through trials, temptations and persecutions, it paradoxically allows God's good character to shine through.

 

It's not Satan's charge, but rather basic logic that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God who desired to be known by all would not hide from them and end up with most never knowing him.

 

Yes, I read what you said. I was around Christianity but in name only, I was raised secular and permitted to find my own path. Logically,I'm supposed to be secular.

 

Being "permitted to find" your "own path" does not mean that you're "supposed to be secular." If you had been indoctrinated with secularism and fed strawman versions of the religious, then I could agree that you're "supposed to be secular."

 

"People of ALL religions would have the same outcome, that of staying in their own religion." <-- If that statement is true that means you are not a true ExChristian and you are STILL a Christian!

 

Wrong. You have once again missed the point. That was specifically said in the context of the practice of using something set forth by the religion one is indoctrinated with as the criteria for examining other religions. Had I continued to do that, I would almost certainly still be a Christian. As long as you do it, you will most likely remain a Christian. As long as a Muslim does it, he will most likely remain a Muslim. As long as a Hindu does it, she will most likely remain a Hindu.

 

There are people who leave Christianity and join other faiths or have no faith

 

Yes, and there are people who leave other beliefs and become Christians. However, those who leave a faith they were indoctrinated with are very small in percentage. The vast majority of the indoctrinated remain in the faith they were programmed with. Some are more fervent than others, but the basic beliefs are there.

 

God's sheep hear His voice and the more they respond, the more He reveals Himself. There are Ex Muslims, Ex Jews, Ex Hindus, Ex Buddhists, Ex Atheists etc. all within Christianity, they searched for God and they found Him. Alas, Christianity needs revival and reformation so more people will be attracted to it.

 

Many people search for God and come to different conclusions. Some find Allah, some find your God, some find others, some find none. If your God was really real and was evidenced in nature (like the Bible claims), then one would logically expect that everyone seeking God would find that one true God. Unfortunately for your view, though, that is not what we have happening in the world.

 

By the way, do you not believe the Bible when it says that there is no one who seeks God?

 

Cits said: I used to say the same thing. Frankly, though, when you're blinded with indoctrination, those other options are NOT fairly evaluated. When I was steeped in Christianity, I also fell for the mischaracterizations of other worldviews, and therefore even though one could say that secularism or other religions were options, the cards were stacked against them in such a way that I could not really choose them.

 

Even today, though I am much more open minded and try to be fair in assessing where people are coming from, I probably still retain some misconceptions from my Christian indoctrination. That's a fact of life.

 

Thumb: You are matching your experience with mine and I am telling you that secularism was my dominant choice.

 

OK, perhaps you weren't initially as indoctrinated with Christianity as your type of arguments imply, but you did state above that you were free to choose, thus meaning that you were not indoctrinated with "secularism."

 

Beyond that, the reason your arguments imply that you were indoctrinated early is because you show no sign of understanding the points that I (and others) make. I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication, but it's still rather obvious that you did not really think all these thing through before accepting Christianity.

 

If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you first started hearing about Christianity, and how old were you when you accepted it?

 

Cits said: You didn't answer the question, my friend. Based on your latest comments, though, let me put it this way: WHY would your god NOT "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" without being coerced by someone else's prayer? WHY would a just, fair, loving God base his dealings with one person on the actions of someone else? Does that really make ANY sense at all to you?

Thumb: I did answer your question, I said people have freedom of choice. God has placed eternity in every person's heart, so they inherently know that sickness and death are not good and normal occurrences. God wants us to be one, in order to inhabit eternity every person has to be selfless like God.Jesus brought good news and His disciples ought to do the same. Satan has first dibs on the unbeliever, God calls to them but they tend to PREFER the voice of a stranger. It is only when a person realizes that they are in a stupor and is following the pied piper, then they cry out to God. When a believer prays God can bind the devils from deafening that unbeliever and His message may can get through.

 

No, you did not answer the question, and you still haven't. You've skirted the issue, and the very fact that you apparently can't see how you're dodging the question is indicative of what I mentioned earlier, which is that you didn't really think this stuff through very well.

 

Let me rephrase the questions into True/Flase questions:

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

God's love for and desire of a relationship with someone is based on what another individual does.

True or False?

God's knowledge of a person's situation is dependent on someone else informing him.

True or False?

 

 

Now, please answer each of those questions with a simple "True" or "False."

 

 

Cits said: I did find out about satan the hard way. After having been indoctrinated with belief in him, it was incredibly difficult to break free from the indoctrination. It was not easy to come to the realization that it's all mythology. My whole life had been built around Christianity, and losing my faith was quite painful.

 

Thumb: Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare. I'm sorry about your painful experiences; I tried to read your most recent posts about your experiences but I was unable to read it.

 

I'm not sure what posts you were looking for.

 

Anyway, "Luci" is a misplaced nickname, and I am not tangled up in a snare of the devil. I used to be entangled in the snare of Christianity, just like you are, but eventually I broke free.

 

Christianity has taught me that I do not have to be judgmental because God is the arbiter of right and wrong. Christians ought to preach the truth and let God judge.

 

<snip>

 

Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare.

 

Evidently Christianity hasn't taught you very well to not be judgmental, since you're judging me as being wrapped up and tangled in the devil's snare.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Those influences usually have an enormous impact on us. I suspect that your influences were likely more than you realize. You are American, right? Throughout America, there are churches and churches and churches, as well as Christians and Christians and Christians (of one stripe or another). Throughout most of America, though, there are very few non-christian options. There are some mosques and synagogues and other religious facilities, but they are few and far between in most areas of America. American culture is much, MUCH more influenced by Christianity than by any other religion.

 

Thumb: God reaching out to me and telling me that He loved me at age 5 or 6 had an enormous impact on me. The Christian that I did know was a WARDEN in my book.

So, you did have a Christian influencing you at the impressionable age of 5 or 6, eh? Perhaps there was more indoctrination going on than you realized.

 

 

Nope, not American. I TOLD you I had other options. There was Hinduism (There were Hindu festivals and I would watch the Hindu movies, I even had a crush on a famous Indian actor, my first real life crush was an Indian boy), Islam, Catholicism, different protestant faiths, weird scary faiths but I was secular, I used to pray when I was young but dropped it as I got older. The most logical for me would have been to join the religion of a teacher I had from age 10-12, she liked us so much that she requested to be our teacher for a 2nd year. She was a total angel. I might be shy but I can also be strong minded and if I truly wanted to join that teacher's religion then I would have but I did not get that knowing that I got when God told me He loved me so I did not try to join her religion.

OK, that's cool that you're not American. I think most of the posters on this board are American, so it's cool to have input from elsewhere.

 

As implied previously, it appears that you did have Christian influence at the impressionable age of 5-6. Even here, you're talking about 10-12. Children at 5-6 years old and most 10-12 year olds do not have much in the way of critical thinking ability.

 

Most of the people I knew did NOT go to church, they liked parties and alcohol and sports on Sunday. I liked cartoons on the weekend and the Indian movies on Sunday.

 

Interesting. I would have wanted to distance myself from wild partiers too.

 

If I was conditioned by my environment then I probably would have embraced immorality or been in a situation where I had to put up with immorality.

 

Yet you had a Christian "warden" around age 5-6, as you mentioned earlier. That is a very influential age.

 

Thumb: Nah, the bible interprets itself and BOTH testaments show a BEAUTIFUL God of mercy and justice.

 

Cits said: Murdering children for the sins of their fathers is beautiful, merciful and just? How so?

 

 

You do not know the beginning from the end. What if those children will be saved? I'm not saying they are but what if? Also, those children would have had sinful proclivities just like their parents, what if God stopped thousands of Hitlers from being born in order to curb some of the evil on this planet?

 

Yes I do know the beginning from the end. I've read the whole book multiple times.

 

As far as what you're saying here, you're just rationalizing things based on your religious assumptions. Do you *really* think that a God who would pronounce judgment on little babies and have them slaughtered with a sword would turn around and reward them with heaven? Why would your God be so contradictory?

 

As for the rest of what you said, do you *really* think it's feasible that "thousands of Hitlers" would have grown from the babies that were slaughtered in judgment?

 

And if your God was so good to stop potential Hitlers by having babies murdered, then *why* did he *not* stop the Hitler we *did* have? Did your God miss one of the babies that were supposed to be slaughtered?

 

What would you think if a bunch of Christians came in the name of God and killed off whole communities in your area, including babies and little children? What would you think if a bunch of Muslims came in the name of God and killed off whole communities in your area, including babies and little children?

 

The primary reason why there are so many different views among Christians is because everyone hath a doctrine. If everyone did indeed use their freedom of choice to follow sola scriptura then Jesus' prayer will be answered and Christianity will be one. Also we Christians need to humble ourselves and pray so God can heal us and this planet.

 

Indeed, they all "hath a doctrine," and they all think that their doctrines are right. Many of them are sincere and really believe that their views are right by God, yet they can't all be totally right, because they disagree. So much for the Holy Spirit indwelling and enlightening believers!

[Thumbelina]

I do admit that with the mess this world is in, it is sometimes hard for some people to see God's care.

 

Cits said: The vast majority of people in the world are not Christians, and these people honestly believe that their views are true. If an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Christian God really existed and wanted a relationship with all of them, then *why* would he be *hiding* from them? What if *you* had been one without the option to believe in Christianity? Would it be fair to hold you accountable for that?

 

 

Thumb: Some people are sincere and they believe that their beliefs are true but a LOT of people are FORCED to stay in the beliefs of their families or culture. A LOT of Muslims are not free to accept any other belief not even in secular Turkey, there are people there who accepted Christianity and they have to hide it. Some Hindus are not free to leave Hinduism.Jews shun their fellow Jews who want to leave Judaism to explore other religions.

 

I saw an interview just last week with a Jewish Christian young woman. She said that she prayed to God and asked Him to reveal Himself to her because she said she was not getting anything from the Jewish rituals. She said they repeated Hebrew texts and she was not understanding it. She prayed to God that He would send a message to her and lo and behold, out of hundreds of people, he put the one Christian that was where she was, in contact with her after she prayed. Her father was an atheist Jew and he was LIVID, she said that she used to go into her closet in her room to talk to the Christian on the telephone and for some reason she sensed her father was listening in on her conversations and yup she caught him listening at her door and that is how he found out. He wanted her to remain Jewish because it is their culture. Fear keeps MANY people from exploring other options.

 

There are many cultural religionists out there, Jews, Muslims, Christians (like those people in Norway, I would say I was like them to some extent, I was a cultural Christian but still secular) etc.

.................

 

God gives EVERY man a measure of faith , it is up to an individual to respond to that measure of faith that God GAVE them.

If a person truly wants God with all their heart, mind and soul (ahem, it's a CHOICE) then God will provide ways for them to know more about Him. <-- Acts 8:26-40

 

I have EXPERIENCED this and MANY other people experience it too. I heard of situations where someone was taken out of sleep and impressed to pray for a specific person and at that same moment that person's life was spared. An atheist with a praying mother came to Christianity like that, his plane blew up but God encased him in a bubble and he came out unharmed. He later came to realize that at that very moment his dear mother was praying for him.

That is why salvation by works is rubbish, many people do not fully understand the gospel and God's requirements and they sin ignorantly but they had FAITH and obeyed what they understood and God pardons them because of their RIGHT motives.

 

 

 

Satan's charge is God is selfish and capricious, by God having His disciples defend His character even though they go through trials, temptations and persecutions, it paradoxically allows God's good character to shine through.

 

Cits said: It's not Satan's charge, but rather basic logic that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God who desired to be known by all would not hide from them and end up with most never knowing him.

 

Thumb: It IS Satan's charge. It was and will be their choice, God gave them a measure of faith but they did not respond to it.

 

Yes, I read what you said. I was around Christianity but in name only, I was raised secular and permitted to find my own path. Logically,I'm supposed to be secular.

 

Cits said: Being "permitted to find" your "own path" does not mean that you're "supposed to be secular." If you had been indoctrinated with secularism and fed strawman versions of the religious, then I could agree that you're "supposed to be secular."

 

This is the definition of

secular:

 

adjective

1.

of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

2.

not pertaining to or connected with religion ( opposed to sacred): secular music.

3.

(of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.

 

 

I did not spend those times being religious although I believed in God. I had the secular activities going on, music, TV, hanging out on the weekend, did not want church, prayed to God when I got scared but in times of ease I took Him for granted. That IS what secularists do. Even so called atheists pray when they get scared, many who were in the foolishness of atheism confessed that as "atheists" they called out to God when they were in dire straits. I have seen statements from people on this very website (people who are aversed to Christianity btw) which stated that maybe they should try Christianity again when they were going through some harrowing times.

 

 

Thumbelina said: "People of ALL religions would have the same outcome, that of staying in their own religion." <-- If that statement is true that means you are not a true ExChristian and you are STILL a Christian

 

Cits said: Wrong. You have once again missed the point. That was specifically said in the context of the practice of using something set forth by the religion one is indoctrinated with as the criteria for examining other religions. Had I continued to do that, I would almost certainly still be a Christian. As long as you do it, you will most likely remain a Christian. As long as a Muslim does it, he will most likely remain a Muslim. As long as a Hindu does it, she will most likely remain a Hindu.

 

 

 

Thumb: While that statement is true, people don't like change and tend to do what is familiar. However, if the familiar practices do not give a person joy and peace then naturally a person will want other options. My point was/is that we were blessed in that we had other options to explore. I was curious, I looked at those other religions and I specifically remember being impressed that the God who loves me is BIGGER that the idols the Hindus and Catholics worship, no one taught me about idolatry but my child's mind understood that a person made those statues and people are bowing to them while God communicated with me without ANY statues. I used to stare at the sun, till my eyes watered, I found it quite interesting but I knew God was BIGGER than that. Idols are an insult to God! Most people I grew up around STILL do not attend church.

 

 

 

There are people who leave Christianity and join other faiths or have no faith

 

Cits said: Yes, and there are people who leave other beliefs and become Christians. However, those who leave a faith they were indoctrinated with are very small in percentage. The vast majority of the indoctrinated remain in the faith they were programmed with. Some are more fervent than others, but the basic beliefs are there.

 

 

 

Thumb: Yes, this is true. A lot of people do not hunger and thirst after righteousness, they see salvation as a paltry thing , as just rituals (there are a lot of churchians out there, says the bible) and they do not get out of their comfort zone. To accept Christ totally, one has to get out of ones comfort zone.

A dose of persecution will cause many people to give up their faith real quick, when those 3 Hebrew boys did not bow to Nebuchadnezzar's statue, there were other Hebrews that bowed to that idol. Peter was not converted which led him to deny Christ.

 

 

 

 

God's sheep hear His voice and the more they respond, the more He reveals Himself. There are Ex Muslims, Ex Jews, Ex Hindus, Ex Buddhists, Ex Atheists etc. all within Christianity, they searched for God and they found Him. Alas, Christianity needs revival and reformation so more people will be attracted to it.

 

Cits said: Many people search for God and come to different conclusions. Some find Allah, some find your God, some find others, some find none. If your God was really real and was evidenced in nature (like the Bible claims), then one would logically expect that everyone seeking God would find that one true God. Unfortunately for your view, though, that is not what we have happening in the world.

 

 

Thumb: God meets us where we are at, God used a angelic teacher to reach me right at puberty and I later came to find out that her religion is a cult and is based on salvation by works but I truly believe that she was a Godly woman and if she continued to love God and grow then God will get her away from that cult. I also met an angelic lady here in America who belonged to the same religion as my angelic teacher and I did not know until recently she was protecting me from a raunchy atheist type; he told me that she did and I had no idea.

 

 

Cits said: By the way, do you not believe the Bible when it says that there is no one who seeks God?

 

Thumb:Yeah, GOD takes the initiative, He placed eternity in our hearts, He gives us the gift of repentance, He causes us to will and do His good pleasure, His goodness leads us to repentance. Man, did you look at the book of Hosea? We are harlots! But God pursues us, He woos us, man. If it were'nt for God PLEADING with us and the HS convicting us of sin then we would not seek God.

Ahem, Centauri says that man saves himself by repenting and works but the bible says it is God who is responsible for any good that man may do from a right motive.

 

 

 

 

Cits said: I used to say the same thing. Frankly, though, when you're blinded with indoctrination, those other options are NOT fairly evaluated. When I was steeped in Christianity, I also fell for the mischaracterizations of other worldviews, and therefore even though one could say that secularism or other religions were options, the cards were stacked against them in such a way that I could not really choose them.

 

Even today, though I am much more open minded and try to be fair in assessing where people are coming from, I probably still retain some misconceptions from my Christian indoctrination. That's a fact of life.

 

Thumb: You are matching your experience with mine and I am telling you that secularism was my dominant choice.

 

Cits said: OK, perhaps you weren't initially as indoctrinated with Christianity as your type of arguments imply, but you did state above that you were free to choose, thus meaning that you were not indoctrinated with "secularism."

 

 

Thumb: As I said previously, I was a cultural Christian, the religious knowledge class piqued my curiosity and I went home and asked my mom questions about the bible. As I got older I started looking at the bible and I found it interesting. The schools I attended had some Christian influences, like ritual prayers 3 times a day and yet they were somewhat secular.

 

.....

 

Cits said: Beyond that, the reason your arguments imply that you were indoctrinated early is because you show no sign of understanding the points that I (and others) make. I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication, but it's still rather obvious that you did not really think all these thing through before accepting Christianity.

 

Thumb: "Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).^[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

 

 

I TOLD you I was ALLOWED to ask questions and I was secular.

 

 

 

 

Cits said: If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you first started hearing about Christianity, and how old were you when you accepted it?

 

 

Thumb: As far back as I can remember but it was sporadic, it was not continual. What convinced me was God reaching out to me personally and not the people in my life. I believed God loved me but I did not quite understand about Christ and His sacrifice except for a few things other Christians said about Him. I was not sure what to do, I did not even want to go to the religious knowledge classes, some teachers would MAKE us go (maybe they were PMSing, heh, heh). I chose the lesser of two evils, the protestants over the Catholics that bowed to SMALL images that MAN made.

I cannot place a time of when I truly accepted Christianity as I was a cultural believer. I know that I was not inclined to go to the other religions based on what I OBSERVED about them. While I did not quite accept Christianity, I did not reject it either. I was just living life/secular.

 

 

 

Cits said: You didn't answer the question, my friend. Based on your latest comments, though, let me put it this way: WHY would your god NOT "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" without being coerced by someone else's prayer? WHY would a just, fair, loving God base his dealings with one person on the actions of someone else? Does that really make ANY sense at all to you?

 

 

Thumb said: I did answer your question, I said people have freedom of choice. God has placed eternity in every person's heart, so they inherently know that sickness and death are not good and normal occurrences. God wants us to be one, in order to inhabit eternity every person has to be selfless like God.Jesus brought good news and His disciples ought to do the same. Satan has first dibs on the unbeliever, God calls to them but they tend to PREFER the voice of a stranger. It is only when a person realizes that they are in a stupor and is following the pied piper, then they cry out to God. When a believer prays God can bind the devils from deafening that unbeliever and His message may can get through.

 

 

Cits said: No, you did not answer the question, and you still haven't. You've skirted the issue, and the very fact that you apparently can't see how you're dodging the question is indicative of what I mentioned earlier, which is that you didn't really think this stuff through very well.

 

Let me rephrase the questions into True/Flase questions:

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

God's love for and desire of a relationship with someone is based on what another individual does.

True or

False

?

Ez 18: 32

;

1 Tim 2:4

;

John3:16

God's knowledge of a person's situation is dependent on someone else informing him.

True or

False

?

Ps 38:9

;

Matt 6:8

;

Now, please answer each of those questions with a simple "True" or "False."

 

 

 

 

 

Thumb: No, I would not answer all of them with just true and false answers, it is not cut and dried like that. I answered the ones that can be answered via true and false. I will REPEAT what I said but a nonspiritual person will see what I write but they can't perceive what it means. I DID NOT skirt any issues, God gives EVERYONE some faith. Because He gives them freedom of choice, they often do NOT respond to His entreaties; SOMETIMES God will not cast His pearls before swine because they will trample them. Pharaoh was figurative swine but God allowed him to exist so others can see how bad rebellion is. He allows SOME people to wallow in the muck, however, He is PLEASED when other humans intercede for others. He was pleased when Moses pleaded for his fellow Israelites. In fact, it is a sin to not pray for others ( I noticed that text for the first time this weekend; I pray for others cuz I want them to know what I understand which is God loves us. Oh, I can't bear to think of Par or Centauri et al missing out on heaven.

Sometimes it is Satan acting up and claiming the life of an individual and that person does not have enough faith but prayer from another person can restrict Satan. God"s timing is perfect but He also factors in a person's FREEDOM to choose.

 

 

 

Cits said: I did find out about satan the hard way. After having been indoctrinated with belief in him, it was incredibly difficult to break free from the indoctrination. It was not easy to come to the realization that it's all mythology. My whole life had been built around Christianity, and losing my faith was quite painful.

 

Thumb said: Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare. I'm sorry about your painful experiences; I tried to read your most recent posts about your experiences but I was unable to read it.

 

Cits said: I'm not sure what posts you were looking for.

 

 

Thumb: You had written a lot of info' about supposed contradictions you found in the bible that caused you to lose faith. Maybe some months back?

 

 

Cits said: Anyway, "Luci" is a misplaced nickname, and I am not tangled up in a snare of the devil. I used to be entangled in the snare of Christianity, just like you are, but eventually I broke free.

 

 

Thumb: The bible says you are on Satan's side and I believe the bible; my job is to pray that you don't remain on his stinkin' side.

 

 

Christianity has taught me that I do not have to be judgmental because God is the arbiter of right and wrong. Christians ought to preach the truth and let God judge.

 

<snip>

 

Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare.

 

Cits said: Evidently Christianity hasn't taught you very well to not be judgmental, since you're judging me as being wrapped up and tangled in the devil's snare.

 

 

 

Thumb: What did you snip?

 

Nah, I am judging righteous judgment, the bible says so. You are not for Christ therefore you are on Satan's side, there are only two options.

[Thumbelina]

Those influences usually have an enormous impact on us. I suspect that your influences were likely more than you realize. You are American, right? Throughout America, there are churches and churches and churches, as well as Christians and Christians and Christians (of one stripe or another). Throughout most of America, though, there are very few non-christian options. There are some mosques and synagogues and other religious facilities, but they are few and far between in most areas of America. American culture is much, MUCH more influenced by Christianity than by any other religion.

 

Thumb: God reaching out to me and telling me that He loved me at age 5 or 6 had an enormous impact on me. The Christian that I did know was a WARDEN in my book.

Cits said: So, you did have a Christian influencing you at the impressionable age of 5 or 6, eh? Perhaps there was more indoctrination going on than you realized.

 

Thumb: I already talked about this in my previous post.

 

 

 

 

Nope, not American. I TOLD you I had other options. There was Hinduism (There were Hindu festivals and I would watch the Hindu movies, I even had a crush on a famous Indian actor, my first real life crush was an Indian boy), Islam, Catholicism, different protestant faiths, weird scary faiths but I was secular, I used to pray when I was young but dropped it as I got older. The most logical for me would have been to join the religion of a teacher I had from age 10-12, she liked us so much that she requested to be our teacher for a 2nd year. She was a total angel. I might be shy but I can also be strong minded and if I truly wanted to join that teacher's religion then I would have but I did not get that knowing that I got when God told me He loved me so I did not try to join her religion.

Cits said: OK, that's cool that you're not American. I think most of the posters on this board are American, so it's cool to have input from elsewhere.

As implied previously, it appears that you did have Christian influence at the impressionable age of 5-6. Even here, you're talking about 10-12. Children at 5-6 years old and most 10-12 year olds do not have much in the way of critical thinking ability.

 

Thumb: Yet people here like to say they were Christian for 30 years, 40 years and they mean from birth or age 3 till they left Christianity. I was curious about God, I remember when I was young, maybe under age 12, I used to look at Pat Robertson on TV, he used to have discussions with a Robert Novak and some others and I used to try to understand what they were talking about. One time Pat Robertson was going to talk about the Mark of the Beast and I sat down and listened. No one was aware that I watched these shows so there was nobody influencing me. I distinctly remember getting the impression that what Pat was saying was rubbish (Sorry Pat). Logically, I should have said it was out of my league and I don't understand it but no, God told me it was nonsense.

Nothing is wrong with critical thinking, I used that to see that the bible taught good morals. Secularism did not encourage good morals. There are many grown folks who do not think critically and responsibly as I did at 13. Do not despise youth, you ageist, you!!!

 

Most of the people I knew did NOT go to church, they liked parties and alcohol and sports on Sunday. I liked cartoons on the weekend and the Indian movies on Sunday.

 

Cits said: Interesting. I would have wanted to distance myself from wild partiers too.

 

Thumb: Did I say the parties were wild? They were the usual dirty dancing parties.

 

 

If I was conditioned by my environment then I probably would have embraced immorality or been in a situation where I had to put up with immorality.

 

Cits said: Yet you had a Christian "warden" around age 5-6, as you mentioned earlier. That is a very influential age.

 

Thumb: That warden wanted to dictate what people did but luckily he lived in the USA and was only around for 3 or 4 weeks a year. Used to be glad to see him go, I couldn't even put on my mother's shoes and play dress up when he was there. Logically, rebellion would have been my best bet but I wasn't rebellious.

 

 

Thumb: Nah, the bible interprets itself and BOTH testaments show a BEAUTIFUL God of mercy and justice.

 

Cits said: Murdering children for the sins of their fathers is beautiful, merciful and just? How so?

 

 

Thumb said: You do not know the beginning from the end. What if those children will be saved? I'm not saying they are but what if? Also, those children would have had sinful proclivities just like their parents, what if God stopped thousands of Hitlers from being born in order to curb some of the evil on this planet?

 

Cits said: Yes I do know the beginning from the end. I've read the whole book multiple times.

 

As far as what you're saying here, you're just rationalizing things based on your religious assumptions. Do you *really* think that a God who would pronounce judgment on little babies and have them slaughtered with a sword would turn around and reward them with heaven? Why would your God be so contradictory?

 

 

Thumb: I do not know what God will do with those babies, the bible is silent on it but the two options are, He will save them or leave them dead.

God ordered the slaughter of avowed enemies of Israel, the devil did not want Messiah to come and those enemies were his agents to try to prevent Christ's birth. God told Israel to eradicate them completely, Israel did not and you see in the OTthat Israel was plagued by them.

.....

Cits said: As for the rest of what you said, do you *really* think it's feasible that "thousands of Hitlers" would have grown from the babies that were slaughtered in judgment?

Thumb: They would have been trained to assassinate the Israelites. No Messiah, no salvation for any man.

 

Cits said: And if your God was so good to stop potential Hitlers by having babies murdered, then *why* did he *not* stop the Hitler we *did* have? Did your God miss one of the babies that were supposed to be slaughtered?

 

 

Thumb: I did say God CURBED lawlessness. He did not eradicate lawlessness because He wants people to get a distaste for lawlessness based on evidence and reason and not because they don't have the option of disobeying Him. Sin multiplies like cancer cells, Eve's transgression did not seem so bad but look at what happened to Cain as a result, look at this planet as a result of it.

 

Most humans are appalled at Hitler, if God did not permit some humans to let their dark side ripen then most people will be satisfied with a low standard and in order to inhabit eternity one has to be HOLY.

Immorality is not conducive to a truly peaceful societies. A lot of people who end up doing horrible crimes did not have stable homes and good family values based on loving relationships.God's way is better and when people are disobedient they reap bad results. God is showing that sin causes misery and death and He is allowing us to choose if we want to be dead permanently.

 

 

Cits said: What would you think if a bunch of Christians came in the name of God and killed off whole communities in your area, including babies and little children? What would you think if a bunch of Muslims came in the name of God and killed off whole communities in your area, including babies and little children?

 

Thumb: Just as I would not respond to Christians who come and tell me to get in an Ark because God is going to flood this world again, I would not believe that Christians killing people who were NOT attacking them have been instructed to do so by God.

The Muslim scenario is in keeping with radical Islam and the instructions of their crazy prophet who was influenced by the devil.

 

The primary reason why there are so many different views among Christians is because everyone hath a doctrine. If everyone did indeed use their freedom of choice to follow sola scriptura then Jesus' prayer will be answered and Christianity will be one. Also we Christians need to humble ourselves and pray so God can heal us and this planet.

 

Cits said: Indeed, they all "hath a doctrine," and they all think that their doctrines are right. Many of them are sincere and really believe that their views are right by God, yet they can't all be totally right, because they disagree. So much for the Holy Spirit indwelling and enlightening believers!

 

Thumb: So much for freedom of choice. Some people are sincere but the bible says that believers are to beware of false prophets. Are the false prophets atheists? What method should a person use to determine if what someone is preaching is true or not? I've seen my share of ask it and grasp it preachers on TV and I was never taken in by them and I won't be either.

 

Believers have different amounts of faith. Some are sincere but it is also possible to be sincere and be sincerely wrong. Do you think people who got tangled up in cults and ended up were not sincere when they joined?

 

Also, the bible says that toward the end of time the Christian church will be lukewarm and the bible is right. There will be a latter rain and Christianity will have a revival on a big scale.

[centauri]

 

Cits said: Jesus supposedly prayed that his followers would be one, yet what we have is a Christianity that is splintered into numerous different denominations. Didn't Jesus have enough faith for his prayer to be answered?

 

Thumb: It's called FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

That rationalization doesn't solve the problem of Jesus not being able to ensure that his own prayer was fulfilled.

Jesus prayed for complete unity among believers, which would serve as a sign to the world that he was genuine and credible.

 

John 17:20-23(NLT)

“I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message.

I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.

I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

 

There was no complete unity then and there is no complete unity among believers 2,000 years later.

 

Surely you know bible prophecy says that the sheep and goats will grow together until the harvest.

That has nothing to do with the issue of believers being unable to fulfill the prayer made by Jesus.

John 17 pertains to believers.

[centauri]

God ordered the slaughter of avowed enemies of Israel, the devil did not want Messiah to come and those enemies were his agents to try to prevent Christ's birth.

Where exactly does the Old Testament say nations that the Israelites invaded were agents of the devil?

Confirmation for your claim that "the devil did not want Messiah to come" is found where in the Hebrew scriptures?

Chapter and verse please.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Cits said: Beyond that, the reason your arguments imply that you were indoctrinated early is because you show no sign of understanding the points that I (and others) make. I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication, but it's still rather obvious that you did not really think all these thing through before accepting Christianity.

 

Thumb: "Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).^[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

 

 

I TOLD you I was ALLOWED to ask questions and I was secular.

 

You're funny, Thumby. I KNOW what indoctrination means, and I TOLD you (in the very text you were replying to) that "I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication," so what's the point in quoting a definition?

 

You may have been allowed to ask quesitons, but that alone does not rule out indoctrination (notice that the definition you quoted said "often," not always). I was allowed to ask quesitons, but the answers I received were skewed in favor of Christianity. As a youngster, I was unable to see through it all, and the biased presentation I received amounted to indoctrination.

 

That being said, I fully acknowledge that there are some exceptions, and perhaps you're one of them. However, even if you weren't technically initially indoctrinated with Christianity, your writings here are in the same vein as those who were. Your responses to the questions you're asked indicate that you did not really think all this stuff through thoroughly.

 

 

Christianity has taught me that I do not have to be judgmental because God is the arbiter of right and wrong. Christians ought to preach the truth and let God judge.

 

<snip>

 

Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare.

 

Cits said: Evidently Christianity hasn't taught you very well to not be judgmental, since you're judging me as being wrapped up and tangled in the devil's snare.

 

 

Thumb: What did you snip?

 

Nah, I am judging righteous judgment, the bible says so. You are not for Christ therefore you are on Satan's side, there are only two options.

 

I just snipped the parts in your post that came between those quotes. What else would it be?

 

Anyway, you admit that you are judgmental while at the same time you pretend that you're not. How cute. Your so-called "judging righteous judgment" is still judgment, my friend. (By the way, Muslims "judge righteous judment" too, and by their judgment you're an infidel in rebellion against God.)

 

 

Cits said: No, you did not answer the question, and you still haven't. You've skirted the issue, and the very fact that you apparently can't see how you're dodging the question is indicative of what I mentioned earlier, which is that you didn't really think this stuff through very well.

 

Let me rephrase the questions into True/Flase questions:

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

God's love for and desire of a relationship with someone is based on what another individual does.

True or

False

?

Ez 18: 32

;

1 Tim 2:4

;

John3:16

God's knowledge of a person's situation is dependent on someone else informing him.

True or

False

?

Ps 38:9

;

Matt 6:8

;

 

 

 

Now, please answer each of those questions with a simple "True" or "False."

 

 

 

 

Thumb: No, I would not answer all of them with just true and false answers, it is not cut and dried like that. I answered the ones that can be answered via true and false.

ALL of those statements are either true or false. If you will not answer all of them, then this discussion is over. There's no point in me trying to converse with one who refuses to answer questions that are tough for her worldview.

 

By the way, at the time of this response, I have not read all of what you posted yesterday. When I skimmed through and saw that once again you refused to answer the questions, I figured I'd just hit on a couple things and let it go.

 

The ball's in your court, Thumby. Answer all of the True or False quesitons and we can chat. Don't answer all of them and I'm done here, because it's not worth my time and effort to engage in such futility.

[Thumbelina]

Cits said: Beyond that, the reason your arguments imply that you were indoctrinated early is because you show no sign of understanding the points that I (and others) make. I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication, but it's still rather obvious that you did not really think all these thing through before accepting Christianity.

 

Thumb: "Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).^[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

 

 

I TOLD you I was ALLOWED to ask questions and I was secular.

 

You're funny, Thumby. I KNOW what indoctrination means, and I TOLD you (in the very text you were replying to) that "I will grant that you could be an exception to that implication," so what's the point in quoting a definition?

 

You may have been allowed to ask quesitons, but that alone does not rule out indoctrination (notice that the definition you quoted said "often," not always). I was allowed to ask quesitons, but the answers I received were skewed in favor of Christianity. As a youngster, I was unable to see through it all, and the biased presentation I received amounted to indoctrination.

 

That being said, I fully acknowledge that there are some exceptions, and perhaps you're one of them. However, even if you weren't technically initially indoctrinated with Christianity, your writings here are in the same vein as those who were. Your responses to the questions you're asked indicate that you did not really think all this stuff through thoroughly.

 

 

Thumb: I have thought all this stuff through and God has proved Himself to me; I can see His Providences throughout my life.

 

Christianity has taught me that I do not have to be judgmental because God is the arbiter of right and wrong. Christians ought to preach the truth and let God judge.

 

<snip>

 

Alas, Ol' Luci' has you all wrapped up and tangled in his snare.

 

Cits said: Evidently Christianity hasn't taught you very well to not be judgmental, since you're judging me as being wrapped up and tangled in the devil's snare.

 

 

Thumb: What did you snip?

 

Nah, I am judging righteous judgment, the bible says so. You are not for Christ therefore you are on Satan's side, there are only two options.

 

Cits said: I just snipped the parts in your post that came between those quotes. What else would it be?

 

 

Thumb: Sorry, I'm used to the mischievous folks like Centauri and Agi always snipping my stuff because they're naughty.

 

Cits said: Anyway, you admit that you are judgmental while at the same time you pretend that you're not. How cute. Your so-called "judging righteous judgment" is still judgment, my friend. (By the way, Muslims "judge righteous judment" too, and by their judgment you're an infidel in rebellion against God.)

 

 

 

Thumb: I said Christianity has taught me not to be judgmental, I did not say that I am always obedient to what I have been taught. I see my flaws as I interact with others.Isn't that how it goes, one should learn from one's mistakes? There are some lessons I have to learn over and over again. I was not being judgmental to you when I said you were on Luci's side. I was stating a biblical fact because I hold the bible to be true. I love bdp but he's on Luci's side too It's a default position for not being in Christ, that is what I meant.

Judge with righteous judgment means to determine or decide based on evidence or Godly instruction. Eg. I will not give the guy I know is on drugs money to "buy" food but I will give him some food. The insincere ones throw the food away, they want money for drugs.

Muslims, like Centauri, believe they can be saved by works, they believe that vengeance is theirs hence the Jihad (thank God a lot of Muslims are moderate or secular). Christianity teaches vengeance is God's.

 

Cits said: No, you did not answer the question, and you still haven't. You've skirted the issue, and the very fact that you apparently can't see how you're dodging the question is indicative of what I mentioned earlier, which is that you didn't really think this stuff through very well.

 

Let me rephrase the questions into True/Flase questions:

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

God's love for and desire of a relationship with someone is based on what another individual does.

True or

False

?

Ez 18: 32

;

1 Tim 2:4

;

John3:16

God's knowledge of a person's situation is dependent on someone else informing him.

True or

False

?

Ps 38:9

;

Matt 6:8

;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, please answer each of those questions with a simple "True" or "False."

 

 

 

 

Thumb: No, I would not answer all of them with just true and false answers, it is not cut and dried like that. I answered the ones that can be answered via true and false.

 

Cits said: ALL of those statements are either true or false. If you will not answer all of them, then this discussion is over. There's no point in me trying to converse with one who refuses to answer questions that are tough for her worldview.

 

 

 

Thumb: ALL of those statements are NOT either true or false. I DID answer ALL of them and I gave you the reasons why the first two cannot be answered in black and white terms. I follow biblical exegesis while you (seem to) and other skeptics want personal eisegesis.

 

Cits said: By the way, at the time of this response, I have not read all of what you posted yesterday. When I skimmed through and saw that once again you refused to answer the questions, I figured I'd just hit on a couple things and let it go.

 

The ball's in your court, Thumby. Answer all of the True or False quesitons and we can chat. Don't answer all of them and I'm done here, because it's not worth my time and effort to engage in such futility.

 

Thumb: No one, be it a church goer or skeptic will force me to scratch their itching ears . If that is your intent then I bid you adieu (OK, I say this but I sincerely hope you make it to the other shore ) If that was not your intent then I apologize.

[Thumbelina]

If there is anyone that is actually interested in why I cannot answer these questions:

 

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

with true or false answers, I shall give my reasons.

 

The first question is a loaded question in that it is stated in a way as to tell the believer

"Aha, you do not need to pray and evangelize then!"

The bible says differently --> Ezekiel 33:1-6 ; vs 6 has more cross references to support evangelism.

 

The second question is another loaded question with the intent to "show" that God is a respecter of persons.

 

God is NOT a respecter of persons. He just won't save a person against their will.

 

 

In keeping with Christianity teaching me about not being judgmental, poor Cits mentioned that He did not get good answers to his questions in the past and I suppose Cits can be quite weary of Christians and their doctrines so I can understand where he is coming from at least.

 

..........

 

The bible has certain INTERLOCKING truths that show God's justice and MERCY. God does not judge people (to be worthy of eternal destruction) en masse, everyone is unique and their circumstances are looked at on an INDIVIDUAL scale.

 

 

I did state in my previous posts that God gives EVERY man a measure of faith and all it takes for someone to move a mountain (of sins) was a little faith, a minute amount just like a mustard seed for it can GROW. Some people choose not to grow their faith for one reason or another.

 

 

Christians follow Christ, they are His disciples and Christ commanded His disciples to pray for others and tell them of the gospel which is why Christians do it. They care about others' eternal destiny, prayers give God permission to intercede in situations where He was not invited to intercede in prior to getting an invitation. To be able to live with God, disciples need to be selfless.

 

There are some solemn warnings in the bible about rejecting God when He calls:

 

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Isa 55:6

 

The commentary says: "there are influences more favorable for seeking him at some periods than others." and this is a biblical truth. God is OMNISCIENT and He KNOWS the PRECISE moment when a person's heart is somewhat open and His message can be heard and accepted. God reached the heathen Nebuchadnezzar by a dream. He then made it possible for the Hebrew boys to WITNESS to Nebuchadnezzar about His power and goodness. He reached Namaan by using a servant girl. Heathen Pharaoh KNEW about God and sin. It's up to individuals to accept or reject the messages.

 

 

Heb 4:7 says: " ... To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

 

There are characters in the bible that REJECTED truth while being under conviction.

Ananias and Sapphira , Judas, ( Jesus could not cast any more of His pearls at Judas , Judas rejected the light that he had), haughty Pilate (He is quite like a biblical character in the OT that represents atheism ) ,Caiaphas, Agrippa , Felix and Drusilla and numerous others in the OT that rejected light or resisted conviction and they ended up committing the unpardonable sin. They became so calloused that they were no longer able to respond to their God given consciences.

 

 

We then have the judgment. In the judgment people will be judged based on how much light they had and rejected, therefore their punishment will be GREATER .If God gives them TOO much light when He knows they will reject it, their sins will then cause them to be punished longer.

 

There are people who like to play the proverbial ostrich and stick their heads in the dirt, well God knows that each person is responsible for permitting Him to grow their faith when they respond to the measure of faith He gave them. Those who reject light will be rejected by God , ipso facto.

[mymistake]

If there is anyone that is actually interested in why I cannot answer these questions:

 

You cannot answer because your religion is false but you want to keep believing it anyway.

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

 

The first question is a loaded question in that it is stated in a way as to tell the believer

"Aha, you do not need to pray and evangelize then!"

 

Wrong. It is a loaded question only in the sense that it presumes God is real. That is what makes it a loaded question. That your religion is wrong is the fault of the men who invented your religion - not of those who question your religion.

 

The second question is another loaded question with the intent to "show" that God is a respecter of persons.

 

God is NOT a respecter of persons. He just won't save a person against their will.

 

 

Again you are wrong. It is a loaded question in the sense that it presumes that God is real. Where did anybody demonstrate that God is real? Do you not know what "loaded question" means? Asking a question with the intent to explore an issue doesn't make it a loaded question. The fallacy is caused by asking questions that presume something as fact when this is not in evidence, such as presuming that God is real.

 

 

The bible has certain INTERLOCKING truths that show God's justice and MERCY. God does not judge people (to be worthy of eternal destruction) en masse, everyone is unique and their circumstances are looked at on an INDIVIDUAL scale.

 

Delusion. The Bible contradicts itself thousands of times. It was written and re-written by men who did not know what they were talking about and often did not agree with each other. As for this God you keep talking about you have nothing to show for him. My cat leaves a bigger footprint on this world.

 

There are some solemn warnings in the bible about rejecting God when He calls:

 

Yet God never calls. Instead all we get are millions of humans speaking on God's behalf and every one of them claims to be the right one even though every "right" messages is different than the next. God is silent. People do all the talking and the words we read and hear are the words of people.

 

There are characters in the bible that REJECTED truth while being under conviction.

 

Fictional characters can do a wide range of things.

 

We then have the judgment. In the judgment people will be judged based on how much light they had and rejected, therefore their punishment will be GREATER .If God gives them TOO much light when He knows they will reject it, their sins will then cause them to be punished longer.

 

So why didn't God call me home back in the 80's when I was an on fire fundamentalist Christian? God's perfect plan was that I would instead go to college where I would be given the skills to see through the Christian lies and then after I die I will burn in hell forever for using my brain. Your religion is absurd. It doesn't make sense. You have deluded yourself.

[Cracked]

People in general are stuck on their versions of realities and ideologies (whatever that may be). Most people can not think outside of their little box-world, and this causes a false illusion of superiority in nature. In reality, we are nothing in this universe. But humans still wish to put themselves at the top of the food chain game, when in reality we are one in the same with every other creature in "this" world until we achieve/evolve into the god like status that we look up to. Even if we do achieve the God like status, there will always be a higher level of superiority for us to try and reach.

 

Religions have came and gone. The only difference with Christianity is it has yet to fade away.

 

For the most part I see no reason to even discuss such nonsense, but today is an unusually boring day.

[Thumbelina]

So why didn't God call me home back in the 80's when I was an on fire fundamentalist Christian? God's perfect plan was that I would instead go to college where I would be given the skills to see through the Christian lies and then after I die I will burn in hell forever for using my brain. Your religion is absurd. It doesn't make sense. You have deluded yourself.

 

Mr. snarky, I'm sure you asked God why He did that but delayed prayers do not mean unanswered prayers. Is your life over? Maybe you experienced what you did so you can help others later on who had similar paths to you. Nobody will burn forever.

[Thumbelina]

... we achieve/evolve into the god like status that we look up to. Even if we do achieve the God like status,

 

In other words:

 

" ... ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

 

We are the world, we are the children ... we're in charge of saving our own lives.

[mymistake]

Mr. snarky, I'm sure you asked God why He did that but delayed prayers do not mean unanswered prayers.

 

Actually I have not. I have had only one petition in my prayers in the last six months. God's answer to that has been the same silence with which God has answered all my other prayers. The question is "Have I been praying to my own ego this entire time?".

 

Is your life over?

 

No. Once you have seen through the Christian lies how can you go back to believing what is false? I see no way. It's not possible without brain damage.

 

Maybe you experienced what you did so you can help others later on who had similar paths to you.

 

I do try to help people get over Christianity.

 

Nobody will burn forever.

 

Nor will anybody feast in the halls of Stovokor. Nor will you be eaten if your heart weighs more than a feather. Maybe we would all be better off if we didn't give ourselves anxiety over imaginary problems.

[Thumbelina]

Mr. snarky, I'm sure you asked God why He did that but delayed prayers do not mean unanswered prayers.

 

 

Actually I have not. I have had only one petition in my prayers in the last six months. God's answer to that has been the same silence with which God has answered all my other prayers. The question is "Have I been praying to my own ego this entire time?".

 

 

 

Well maybe you need to lose that 'tude, buddy. Then you need to take heed of this parable.

 

Maybe you misunderstood God's character in some way and that prevents you from drawing near to Him. God answers us when we come to Him.

[Cracked]

... we achieve/evolve into the god like status that we look up to. Even if we do achieve the God like status,

 

In other words:

 

" ... ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

 

We are the world, we are the children ... we're in charge of saving our own lives.

 

Sure, I don't believe in fate, even though we share the same end. So making your own path to the best of your own ability is a good way to go.

 

Some things I find interesting is that people seem to mistake personal fate with societal fate. People want their death to have meaning and the only way for part of them to live or continue is in their thoughts or idiologies being passed on through the societies they live in.

[mymistake]

Actually I have not. I have had only one petition in my prayers in the last six months. God's answer to that has been the same silence with which God has answered all my other prayers. The question is "Have I been praying to my own ego this entire time?".

 

 

 

Well maybe you need to lose that 'tude, buddy. Then you need to take heed to this parable.

 

I'm not the one who presumes to speak on behalf of the creator of the universe. To find the one with the attitude problem look in the mirror.

 

Maybe you misunderstood God's character in some way and that prevents you from drawing near to Him. God answers us when we come to Him.

 

Oh but that doesn't explain how I use to be able to draw near to God. Maybe you are offering pathetic excuses because your religion is a con. You have no objective evidence to support it. That is what we would expect to find regarding a con.

[Thumbelina]

... we achieve/evolve into the god like status that we look up to. Even if we do achieve the God like status,

 

In other words:

 

" ... ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

 

We are the world, we are the children ... we're in charge of saving our own lives.

 

Sure, I don't believe in fate, even though we share the same end. So making your own path to the best of your own ability is a good way to go.

 

You don't believe in fate but you have some type of faith?

 

 

Your view does not give much hope to people who are living hellish lives, does it?

 

 

 

 

 

Some things I find interesting is that people seem to mistake personal fate with societal fate. People want their death to have meaning and the only way for part of them live or continue is in their thoughts or idiologies being passed on through the societies they live in.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, everyone has their own path but we affect each other for good or bad .

 

 

Christians believe that the only thing of lasting value is a Godly character, everything else is vanity and grasping for the wind.

[Cracked]

You don't believe in fate but you have some type of faith?

 

Try reading my words again, and please try not to read into them with religious intent.

 

Your view does not give much hope to people who are living hellish lives, does it?

 

Nope, but it does leave room for improvement. People need to realize that they need to raise the bar.

 

Yes, everyone has their own path but we affect each other for good or bad .

 

Agreed

 

Christians believe that the only thing of lasting value is a Godly character, everything else is vanity and grasping for the wind.

 

Are you the spokesman for Christianity (past, present and future)? People also need to raise the bar on this God thing. There's always room for improvement, and that's why Christianity has had to evolve with the ever changing mood of the mobs.

[mymistake]

Christians believe that the only thing of lasting value is a Godly character, everything else is vanity and grasping for the wind.

 

Wow, now that you mention it I'm in awe.

 

Have you ever thought about how upside down and backwards that is? Christians believe that their own character is the only thing of lasting value and everything else is vanity! Wow. And to top it all off the Christian God is just an extension of the Christian ego. That is just sick backwards. It's amazing how many Christian beliefs are bankrupt if you just think about them.

[Thumbelina]

You don't believe in fate but you have some type of faith?

 

Try reading my words again, and please try not to read into them with religious intent.

 

 

*shrug* You have this above your avatar " Human until I get recycled" I assumed you beleive in reincarnation or some sort of such.

 

Your view does not give much hope to people who are living hellish lives, does it?

 

Nope, but it does leave room for improvement. People need to realize that they need to raise the bar.

 

Some people have no hope atm but death, so what about them?

 

 

 

 

Christians believe that the only thing of lasting value is a Godly character, everything else is vanity and grasping for the wind.

 

Are you the spokesman for Christianity (past, present and future)? People also need to raise the bar on this God thing. There's always room for improvement, and that's why Christianity has had to evolve with the ever changing mood of the mobs.

 

The bible speaks and I try to repeat what it says. God is higher than the highest heavens. The God of the Christians have ancient Words that are ever true written down for us and there is nothing that is truly new under the sun. True improvement comes with fearing (respecting) God, so the bible teaches but you no longer adhere to the teachings of that beautiful book.

[Cracked]

Oh Thumb, I feel for you. I refer you to the first two sentences of post #86 of this thread.

 

People in general are stuck on their versions of realities and ideologies (whatever that may be). Most people can not think outside of their little box-world, and this causes a false illusion of superiority in nature.

[agnosticator]

God answers us when we come to Him.

 

You mean "when we CALL Him". Dial "Et cum spiritu tuo". That's, E C S 22 O, and call collect. If the Father answers, ask for Jesus.

 

edit: Only Catholics will get the reference to Dominus Vobiscum.

[centauri]

Muslims, like Centauri, believe they can be saved by works,

Being saved by works is what the Bible teaches.

 

I follow biblical exegesis while you (seem to) and other skeptics want personal eisegesis.

That's a real knee slapper.

Is your nose growing longer???

It should be projecting about three feet from your face after this whopper.

[★ Citsonga ★]

If there is anyone that is actually interested in why I cannot answer these questions:

 

 

God will "create circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" regardless of whether or not someone else prays for that individual.

True or False?

God will not refrain from creating "circumstances that will show the unbeliever that he would like them to come to him" simply because someone else refrains from praying for him.

True or False?

 

 

 

with true or false answers, I shall give my reasons.

 

The first question is a loaded question in that it is stated in a way as to tell the believer

"Aha, you do not need to pray and evangelize then!"

The bible says differently --> Ezekiel 33:1-6 ; vs 6 has more cross references to support evangelism.

 

The second question is another loaded question with the intent to "show" that God is a respecter of persons.

 

God is NOT a respecter of persons. He just won't save a person against their will.

 

Haha. As another pointed out, these are *not* "loaded" questions in the way you want to claim they're loaded. The statements are either true or false. Your reluctance to answer the questions does demonstrate how unfounded your position is, though.

 

 

In keeping with Christianity teaching me about not being judgmental, poor Cits mentioned that He did not get good answers to his questions in the past and I suppose Cits can be quite weary of Christians and their doctrines so I can understand where he is coming from at least.

 

Haha. No, Thumby, you to *NOT* know where I'm coming from.

 

By the way, phrasing your assessment as though I "did not get good answers" is a death-blow to Christianity, since the answers I got were *Christian* answers. Pretty much all the thoughtless nonsense you post are exactly the kinds of things I was fed by Christians, so if those answers are not good, then your posts are also not good.

 

But that's enough for now. You still didn't answer the true or false questions above, so I probably shouldn't have bothered responding at all. Of course, I really didn't expect you to answer them, since your severely flawed perspective will be revealed as fallacious if you answer them. Perhaps later I'll go back and take a look again at the two you did answer. For now, take care....