Ex Christians And Social Conscience.

[Deva]

How did I miss it?

Distracted by the lizards perhaps?

 

Not to be too technical but -its amphibians (salamanders) and one snake, I don't own a lizard - and the perpetual job hunt.

 

My avatar is a fire salamander, by the way.

[Greatest I am]

In answer to the original question - i get really torn on this one - by personality i am not 'evangelical' at all, i'm kinda live and let live, dont interfere in others beliefs cos its none of my business type of person BUT i do so so wish that i had somehow managed to leave christianity at a much earlier age than i did - i wonder if i had been challenged or given more information from an atheist perspective - whether i could have seen the light earlier and saved myself years of shit.

 

Because i wasnt vocal about my christianity and quite a liberal christian i never really triggered anyones challenge i suppose. Maybe i was still so entrenched i wouldnt have 'heard' the rational view anyway but i often feel i should be shouting this 'good news' from the roof tops, just because i would love to go back in time and tell it to myself :0)

 

Sure you are evangelical. As you should be.

Your social conscience is apparent and since what you have found feels good, you naturally want to pass it on.

 

Git along my friend. What cha waiting for to do the right thing.

Girdle your loins and jump in.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

[[ So starting on a crusade to "save" people from Christianity (or anything else, really) is probably misguided. The saying that applies here is "God has no grandchildren". People have to figure this stuff out for themselves.

 

 

Thanks for this. Interesting.

 

You indicate how damaging to you religion was, yet do not advocate an effort to help, inform or otherwise help people figure out their misconceptions.

 

Were you not helped in this. Did you dither it all out on your own?

 

Do you have any concerns for your children or grandchildren who might get sucked into religious indoctrination?

 

After all, we are all in this together, alone.

 

Regards

DL

 

Sir, I don't understand you. You say in your avatar that you are a Deist. I take it you believe that there is a supernatural being out there. To me, there is no difference whether you call yourself a deist or theist, so long as you believe in the supernatural realm. Since exC is not an atheist-only forum, you have a full right to be here, but I would really like to know how you justify slurring theists (as you freely do in this thread) while you yourself adhere to belief in the supernatural. Belief in unevidenced and unsubstantiated supernatural entities has caused so much grief in our world as to warrant the label immoral. Can you explain why you count yourself among this group, while at the same time slamming it? Sorry if that's harsh but you yourself said you go for the tough-love stuff.

 

I do not believe in the supernatural.

 

Just to update my label. Gnostic Christians naturalist is closer.

 

 

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39.

I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.

Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

 

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

 

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

 

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

 

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.

This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

 

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

 

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

 

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

 

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

 

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

 

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

I don't try to deconvert others from whatever their favorite cult affiliation may be. It's a free world. People can be as delusional as they choose. I am only interested in my own sanity. I am free because I choose to be free. It comes down to the old cliche, 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.' Why? Because you have to make it thirsty first. If a Christian has no thirst or desire to leave his church, he won't no matter how much common sense and facts you throw in his face. The will power to deconvert only comes after the light bulb turns itself on in someone's head that what they have been hearing and have been taught is just mythological BS. If they never receive that 'gift of discernment,' then they will never leave their favorite cult. I don't argue too much with believers but I don't back down if they start slinging accusations at me about my character because I am no longer a believer. I also don't tolerate door bangers either. They leave me alone, I leave them alone. If their beliefs injure someone like a child, then it is between them and the legal system and still not my business. If I can prevent a child from physical harm I will step up but when it comes to interfering in a family because they may teach their crap to their children, that is something a family has the right to, worship together, just like my family has the right not to worship at all.

 

I have always seen backing down as a sign of intelligence.

It means one can tell from his own reasoning power when he is on the wrong path.

 

Regards

DL

[florduh]

How did I miss it?

Distracted by the lizards perhaps?

 

Not to be too technical but -its amphibians (salamanders) and one snake, I don't own a lizard - and the perpetual job hunt.

 

My avatar is a fire salamander, by the way.

Mea culpa. But it doesn't have a ring to it the way "Lizard Lady" does.

[R. S. Martin]

Sir, I don't understand you. You say in your avatar that you are a Deist. I take it you believe that there is a supernatural being out there. To me, there is no difference whether you call yourself a deist or theist, so long as you believe in the supernatural realm. Since exC is not an atheist-only forum, you have a full right to be here, but I would really like to know how you justify slurring theists (as you freely do in this thread) while you yourself adhere to belief in the supernatural. Belief in unevidenced and unsubstantiated supernatural entities has caused so much grief in our world as to warrant the label immoral. Can you explain why you count yourself among this group, while at the same time slamming it? Sorry if that's harsh but you yourself said you go for the tough-love stuff.

 

I do not believe in the supernatural.

 

Just to update my label. Gnostic Christians naturalist is closer.

 

 

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39.

I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.

 

 

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I am left with a lot more questions. Since it is off-topic for this thread, I posted my questions as a new thread in the Theology section entitled Deism: What It It?, in case you--or others--wish to respond. Thank you.

[bornagainathiest]

I wonder if the Mods would let me have the words, "Authentic Christian Believer" added to my profile?

Ok, I'm an Ex-Christian and an Athiest, but given these minor details, I reckon I'm still way more of an "Authentic Christian Believer" than he is.

 

So how about it Nivek, Ouroboros, et al?

 

If End can be one, just because he says he is, can I be one too?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Finally, after four year of evangelizing, we have someone who wants to rejoin the fold. Congratulations brother!!

 

Hah!

 

You need to be an "Authentic Christian Believer" first, before you can do any evangelizing. That counts you out from get go.

Plus, you probably wouldn't recognize bona fide evangelization anyway, such is your ignorance of anything genuinely Christian. So whatever you've been doing here for four years, Christian evangelization it is not!

 

Also, not being an "Authentic Christian Believer" End, you aren't in the fold at all. Since I'm not in the fold either (being and Ex-Christian and an Atheist), I can't be any kind of brother of yours... thankfully!

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To the Moderators...

 

This is a serious and formal request.

 

I look forward to hearing why anyone can call themselves this, when they plainly aren't. As I see it, this sets up a precedent within this forum. Anyone can join up and claim to be an Authentic Christian Believer. Fine. I have no problem with that. However, when the said person's authenticity is shown to be a sham, shouldn't they be stripped of that description and not be permitted to use it?

 

There is now ample evidence of End's duplicity.

E.g., no true Christian calls upon the name of Jesus in vain, but End3 does.

No true Christian uses foul language the way he does. No true Christian dishes out abuse and insults as he does. To these un-Christian aspects of his online behavior, we can add an almost complete lack of scriptural knowledge and many distinctly un-Biblical theological ideas. Taken together, all of these things demonstrate that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer", but is simply masquerading as one for his own reasons.

His title is a lie and should, in my view, be taken from him.

 

Please note that what I am advocating does not infringe anyone's right to free speech - it simply prevents them from falsely calling themselves something that they clearly are not. Imho, leaving matters as they stand means giving End and anyone who follows in his footsteps a licence to lie to us.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

I wonder if the Mods would let me have the words, "Authentic Christian Believer" added to my profile?

Ok, I'm an Ex-Christian and an Athiest, but given these minor details, I reckon I'm still way more of an "Authentic Christian Believer" than he is.

 

So how about it Nivek, Ouroboros, et al?

 

If End can be one, just because he says he is, can I be one too?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Finally, after four year of evangelizing, we have someone who wants to rejoin the fold. Congratulations brother!!

 

Hah!

 

You need to be an "Authentic Christian Believer" first, before you can do any evangelizing. That counts you out from get go.

Plus, you probably wouldn't recognize bona fide evangelization anyway, such is your ignorance of anything genuinely Christian. So whatever you've been doing here for four years, Christian evangelization it is not!

 

Also, not being an "Authentic Christian Believer" End, you aren't in the fold at all. Since I'm not in the fold either (being and Ex-Christian and an Atheist), I can't be any kind of brother of yours... thankfully!

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To the Moderators...

 

This is a serious and formal request.

 

I look forward to hearing why anyone can call themselves this, when they plainly aren't. As I see it, this sets up a precedent within this forum. Anyone can join up and claim to be an Authentic Christian Believer. Fine. I have no problem with that. However, when the said person's authenticity is shown to be a sham, shouldn't they be stripped of that description and not be permitted to use it?

 

There is now ample evidence of End's duplicity.

E.g., no true Christian calls upon the name of Jesus in vain, but End3 does.

No true Christian uses foul language the way he does. No true Christian dishes out abuse and insults as he does. To these un-Christian aspects of his online behavior, we can add an almost complete lack of scriptural knowledge and many distinctly un-Biblical theological ideas. Taken together, all of these things demonstrate that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer", but is simply masquerading as one for his own reasons.

His title is a lie and should, in my view, be taken from him.

 

Please note that what I am advocating does not infringe anyone's right to free speech - it simply prevents them from falsely calling themselves something that they clearly are not. Imho, leaving matters as they stand means giving End and anyone who follows in his footsteps a licence to lie to us.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

See BAA, this is why you don't get it. The Bible says we move in faith towards perfection. Christianity is based on that no one is perfect and "finished" except Christ....We are moving towards perfection in Christ.

 

The fact that I cuss when I am angry only verifies my imperfection. And you can't define my level of faith.

 

And it's working too! I wanted to write idiot on the end of my statement but didn't...Glory!!

[florduh]

E.g., no true Christian calls upon the name of Jesus in vain, but End3 does.

No true Christian uses foul language the way he does. No true Christian dishes out abuse and insults as he does. To these un-Christian aspects of his online behavior, we can add an almost complete lack of scriptural knowledge and many distinctly un-Biblical theological ideas. Taken together, all of these things demonstrate that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer", but is simply masquerading as one for his own reasons.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

 

See, I knew one like that. He was always extolling the virtues of Christianity and salvation as he drank his scotch and watched porno. Really.

[Guest end3]

I'm willing to wager that Mriana is single BAA. Huh, maybe you and her?

[bornagainathiest]

 

See BAA, this is why you don't get it. The Bible says we move in faith towards perfection. Christianity is based on that no one is perfect and "finished" except Christ....We are moving towards perfection in Christ.

 

The fact that I cuss when I am angry only verifies my imperfection. And you can't define my level of faith.

 

And it's working too! I wanted to write idiot on the end of my statement but didn't...Glory!!

 

You're right on the money, End! I can't define your level of faith - but God can!

 

And guess what? He's also given us a way to do it. You can read about yourself, here...

 

Luke 6:43-45.

A Tree and Its Fruit

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

 

and here...

 

Galatians 5:19-26

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality (Mriana and me, huh?) ,impurity and debauchery (your foul language);20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord (your abusive insults),jealousy, fits of rage (your self-confessed anger),selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

and here...

 

Ephesians 5:1-7.

1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality,

or of any kind of impurity , or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.

4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

 

See?

Behavior is an indicator of what lies within, scripture is quite clear about that.

 

You can't excuse your un-Christian behavior by simply saying that you are "unfinished". All Christians are, by definition, "unfinished", but it is not up to them to finish themselves, nor to perfect themselves.

 

Florduh is right - again. Christians are forgiven, not perfect, nor becoming perfect. Your mistaken notion of increasing 'levels' of perfection is not the way Christianity functions. Yet another indication that your so-called "Authentic Christian Belief" is nothing of the sort.

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

@BAA,

 

What do you believe it would take for us to have a decent conversation.

[bornagainathiest]

@BAA,

 

What do you believe it would take for us to have a decent conversation.

 

That's simple, End.

 

You start by presenting a coherent case for your 'moving-towards-perfection-in-Christianity' argument, citing chapter and verse where it says this in scripture.

Let's see you present an argument from the Bible that excuses your blatantly un-Christian behavior. After all, this is how you excuse your cussing, your personal insults and your taking the name of Jesus in vain, isn't it?

By claiming to be "unfinished", not un-Christian.

 

End3 wrote..."The Bible says we move in faith towards perfection. Christianity is based on that no one is perfect and "finished" except Christ....We are moving towards perfection in Christ."

So where does the Bible say this?

Where does it say that Christianity is based on this?

Justify yourself please!

 

I say that you're not a Christian and that you've lied to us, claiming that you are. So now I'm calling you out End.

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way, if it helps. Now's your big chance to prove yourself to be an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

Go for it!

 

(Sits back and waits...)

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

@BAA,

 

What do you believe it would take for us to have a decent conversation.

 

That's simple, End.

 

You start by presenting a coherent case for your 'moving-towards-perfection-in-Christianity' argument, citing chapter and verse where it says this in scripture.

Let's see you present an argument from the Bible that excuses your blatantly un-Christian behavior. After all, this is how you excuse your cussing, your personal insults and your taking the name of Jesus in vain, isn't it?

By claiming to be "unfinished", not un-Christian.

 

End3 wrote..."The Bible says we move in faith towards perfection. Christianity is based on that no one is perfect and "finished" except Christ....We are moving towards perfection in Christ."

So where does the Bible say this?

Where does it say that Christianity is based on this?

Justify yourself please!

 

I say that you're not a Christian and that you've lied to us, claiming that you are. So now I'm calling you out End.

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way, if it helps. Now's your big chance to prove yourself to be an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

Go for it!

 

(Sits back and waits...)

 

BAA.

 

 

Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

 

1Cr 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

2Cr 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Hbr 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

 

I'm betting you need me to go into detail so that you can see how they relate to what I said? And I think, as I have mentioned BAA, that that is one of your problems. Not many people have to have the detail that you do. I suspect some of your aggravation stems from that need. Hence the thread that you started about the other Christian here not answering you to your satisfaction.

[Mriana]

I'm willing to wager that Mriana is single BAA. Huh, maybe you and her?

 

I've been married twice and divorced them both after I got to know them better. Tried a long distant relationship twice and they just do not work. I'm also not interested in another relationship.

[R. S. Martin]

@BAA,

 

What do you believe it would take for us to have a decent conversation.

 

That's simple, End.

 

You start by presenting a coherent case for your 'moving-towards-perfection-in-Christianity' argument, citing chapter and verse where it says this in scripture.

Let's see you present an argument from the Bible that excuses your blatantly un-Christian behavior. After all, this is how you excuse your cussing, your personal insults and your taking the name of Jesus in vain, isn't it?

By claiming to be "unfinished", not un-Christian.

 

End3 wrote..."The Bible says we move in faith towards perfection. Christianity is based on that no one is perfect and "finished" except Christ....We are moving towards perfection in Christ."

So where does the Bible say this?

Where does it say that Christianity is based on this?

Justify yourself please!

 

I say that you're not a Christian and that you've lied to us, claiming that you are. So now I'm calling you out End.

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way, if it helps. Now's your big chance to prove yourself to be an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

Go for it!

 

(Sits back and waits...)

 

BAA.

 

 

Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

 

1Cr 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

2Cr 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Hbr 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

 

I'm betting you need me to go into detail so that you can see how they relate to what I said? And I think, as I have mentioned BAA, that that is one of your problems. Not many people have to have the detail that you do. I suspect some of your aggravation stems from that need. Hence the thread that you started about the other Christian here not answering you to your satisfaction.

 

Cop-out!

 

If the details don't line up then the whole structural edifice shifts, sinks, and founders away.

[R. S. Martin]

I'm willing to wager that Mriana is single BAA. Huh, maybe you and her?

 

I've been married twice and divorced them both after I got to know them better. Tried a long distant relationship twice and they just do not work. I'm also not interested in another relationship.

 

Stick to your guns, Mriana. Singlehood rocks!

 

That was uncalled for from End.

[Mriana]

I'm willing to wager that Mriana is single BAA. Huh, maybe you and her?

 

I've been married twice and divorced them both after I got to know them better. Tried a long distant relationship twice and they just do not work. I'm also not interested in another relationship.

 

Stick to your guns, Mriana. Singlehood rocks!

 

That was uncalled for from End.

 

He's been doing a lot of things like that lately, but that one takes the cake esp because it is WAY off topic.

[bornagainathiest]

End3 wrote...

I'm betting you need me to go into detail so that you can see how they relate to what I said? And I think, as I have mentioned BAA, that that is one of your problems. Not many people have to have the detail that you do. I suspect some of your aggravation stems from that need. Hence the thread that you started about the other Christian here not answering you to your satisfaction.

 

 

R.S. Martin wrote...

Cop-out!

 

If the details don't line up then the whole structural edifice shifts, sinks, and founders away.

 

This!

 

BAA

[bornagainathiest]

 

Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

 

1Cr 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

2Cr 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Hbr 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

 

I'm betting you need me to go into detail so that you can see how they relate to what I said?

 

Well now, please don't trouble yourself by going into detail, End. I'm sure you've got much better things to do with your time. In fact, I'll even go into the detail for you and save you the effort, ok? (See my comments below.)

 

And I think, as I have mentioned BAA, that that is one of your problems. Not many people have to have the detail that you do.

 

Let's see, you've been a member of this forum, what is it? Four years now?

And in all that time you've never noticed (not even once) that many, if not most of the Ex-Christians here go into the level of detail that I do? Haven't you ever seen Centauri or Citsonga or Ouroboros tangle with Rayskidude, Thumbelina and LNC, getting right down to microscopic detail of the Bible's wording? Quite frankly I'm surprised if you haven't!

 

Wise up, End!

This is what happens here in the Lion's Den.

Because Christian apologists twist and distort scripture for their own ends, we HAVE to go into exacting detail to expose their fraud and chicanery. That's what we Lion's do. So, if this is a 'problem' of mine, then I think you'll find I share it with most of the other Lions here.

 

Reality check.

No, End! You've tried to turn this around and paint me as the difficult, intractable party here. Sorry, but that won't work. You are being intractable in your persistent evasion of the big question - are you a Christian or not? Any "Authentic Christian Believer" of four years standing, can back up their claim with a fully detailed and coherent explanation of their faith. You don't seem to be able to do that. Therefore, what conclusion should we draw about you?

 

I suspect some of your aggravation stems from that need. Hence the thread that you started about the other Christian here not answering you to your satisfaction.

 

Rayskidude?

I'm glad you've mentioned him. Can you see what's happening here? I'm going after you, like I went after him. That's all. In the past I've gone after Thumbelina and LNC. Recently I stomped on a newbie by the handle of TXnana. I've been active in another forum and guess what I do there? Yep. I go after Christian apologists, just as I do here.

 

But, are you suggesting that it's wrong of me to do that? And that Centauri, Citsonga, Mriana, et al are all wrong to do the same? Somehow, you're special, are you? That we shouldn't treat you on an equal basis with every other Christian apologist who enters the Den of their own free will, despite knowing that they do so at their own peril? Pray do tell us why we shouldn't tear you apart and feast on your lying carcass?

Maybe you think that we Ex-christian's enjoy being lied to? Perhaps we should do nothing about it and not expose the liars and their lies? Is that where you're coming from here?

 

Anyway!

Enuf questions. I think I've made my point. Now let's get down to some detail.

 

Hebrews 7:11

Wrong context, End!

Here Paul is writing to the Hebrews (the Jews), comparing the limitations of the Levitical priesthood to the unlimited saving grace of Jesus. Therefore, the perfection he talks about does not apply on the personal basis you claim it does. This is a lesson for the Jews, warning them not to rely on the Law of Moses and the limited powers of the Levitical priesthood to bring them to God - only Jesus can do that.

 

Hebrews 12:1

Wrong context, End!

The cloud of witnesses Paul mentions are listed in the previous chapter. They are all figures from the Old Testament, that is, Jewish history. Since the whole point of the book of Hebrews was to instruct the Jews reading it not to rely of the Law, but to look to Jesus, what does it mean when it says, 'let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles'?

Or, putting it another way, what was it that hindered the Jews and caused them to fall into sin?

The answer is the Law of Moses. That was and still is the big hinderance that prevents the Jewish nation from coming to their God, Yeshua.

Once again End, this does not refer to you on a personal basis - it is a message for the H-E-B-R-E-W-S. Geddit?

 

1 Corinthians 13:10

Wrong context, End!

Paul is writing to church in Corinth about their misuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That is why in verse 8, he talks about the gifts of prophecy, of tongues and of knowledge failing, ceasing and vanishing. I explained this to you earlier in this thread. The gifts of the spirit are temporary, but when Christians are perfected, these gifts will no longer be needed. That is why verse 9 says that Christians currently prophecy in part (that is, not perfectly) and have partial (imperfect) knowledge. So when do Christians become perfect?

At the end of time, when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead. THAT is the day when God will perfect all true believers. This perfection is not the ongoing, day-by-day process you claim it is. No. It's a singular event which wipes away the need for spiritual gifts forever. This is confirmed in verse 12.

 

For now we see through a glass, darkly;

but then face to face:

now I know in part;

but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

The words, 'then' make it quite clear that a specific time and a specific event are being referred to here, not a process.

 

2 Corinthians 13:9-11

Wrong context, End!

Remember what Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthian church? Perfection comes at the end of days, not as part of an ongoing process. Therefore, when he writes, '...and our prayer is for your perfection' he cannot mean this process. To do so would be to contradict himself. He is praying that the Corinthian Christians will hold on to their faith and not fall away. Falling away would disqualify them from being perfected by God on Judgement Day.

In the same context, when Paul writes, 'Aim for perfection', he cannot be asking the Corinthians to perfect themselves, to allow God to perfect them there and then or to go thru a process of perfection at any time in their mortal lives. No. If he has already said that Christians will be perfected only when Jesus returns, he would be contradicting himself, again. By asking them to aim for perfection, Paul is encouraging them to hold on to their faith while they live, guaranteeing their future perfection on the Day of Judgement.

 

So, we're still waiting, End.

Prove to us that you are an, "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

I think you need to go back to Sunday School BAA.....as well as critcal thinking class.

 

Hbr 10:13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

Hbr 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

And BAA, if the Holy Spirit has spoken to anyone just once, then sir, it is a process.

[R. S. Martin]

I think you need to go back to Sunday School BAA.....as well as critcal thinking class.

 

 

 

I've seen very little of Sunday School and perhaps three hours of thinking critical class. But I know something about theology and detecting patterns of thought from a person's writing. You, End, think I'm cracked before I start so I have nothing to lose. I'll give this a stab.

 

Bornagainatheist, the key to "faith" is taking the word of authority at its--excuse the pun--word. So if you're going to take the word of authority, all you have to do is find someone whose authority you trust for whatever reason, and build your life on the cliches this person of authority utters.

 

With that in mind, let's take another look at the Bible verses End posts. I understand he claims that they hang together and are relevant to his position as a Christian believer.

 

Post 214

 

Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

 

 

"Cloud of witnesses" is the authority End chooses to trust. To see who this "cloud of witnesses" is, read the rest of the chapter...I have in mind it's people like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc, and people who "wandered in the caves of the earth" and were "sawn assunder of whom the world was not worthy," etc. "Sin" would be anything this "cloud of witnesses"--or their god--disproves. It seems this "cloud of witnesses" saw life as a "race marked out" for them, as in the Roman amphitheater, or maybe it was the Greek Olympian Games. As we know to this day, there are all kinds of complications involved in winning--or even surviving--a strenuous physical competition such as running a marathon so that perseverance is required. Also concentration--"throw off everything that hinders and...entangles."

 

So that's End's primary authority and rules: Cloud of Witnesses. Concentrate. Persevere.

 

 

1Cr 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

2Cr 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection

2Cr 13:11 Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Hbr 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

 

A batch of cliches to encourage the runners in this marathon and keep up their stamina. Also to focus their concentration. It helps them to know that they should aim for perfection but that it doesn't really matter if they fail to keep their temper once in a while because the bottom line is to survive, i.e. hold onto the belief that what the Cloud of Witnesses says about God and the slain Lamb (not quoted here but it appears in Revelation) is as true and genuinely real as the sunlight bearing down mercilessly on their sweating bodies.

 

I'm betting you need me to go into detail

 

Since you steadfastly refuse to expound the scripture you present in your own defense, you'll have to make do with my explanation.

 

Post 221

 

Hbr 10:13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

Hbr 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

Some more cliches. Keeps the runners imagining that they are perfect even if they fail miserably. They can borrow Jesus' perfection, so to speak. Other biblical writers speak of robes of righteousness Christians can put on, and about being washed in Jesus' blood. All of that probably helps keep up the stamina--and facade.

 

A couple of problems:

 

1. Righteousness is not the kind of thing that will protect the human body from the elements or cover it for modesty.
2. The blood of Jesus' human body wasn't enough to wash the heads, hands, and feet--let alone bodies--of all the Christians who ever lived in the two thousand years since his time. A human body does not have that much blood. Even if it did in the beginning, it would have dried out by now. In case there is a question about the human-ness of Jesus' body. He is said to have been fully God and fully man. For this argument we will assume that things like spirits/souls and gods exist. So the "fully God" part must have been his spirit or soul and the "fully man" part must have been his body. There is scripture to support this idea: Behold, a body thou hast given me; He was tempted in all things like us but without sin (without a natural human body this would not have been possible). So there can be no question that we are talking about a natural human body with the normal amount of human blood.
3. The above items being the case, we know that the idea of "robes of righteousness" and "being washed in Jesus' blood" are also cliches.

The sacrifice Jesus supposedly makes was dying on the cross. There is so much myth and folklore around that statement that I will not get into it. I trust most readers will be familiar with most or the myth, biblical accounts, and folklore. Somehow or other, a method involving belief and a blood bath in Jesus' blood, supposedly brings about perfection. It is all cliches that help keep the runners focused and concentrated on their perseverance.

 

I find that the path to perfection is considerably more effective when people become self-aware of their personal emotional states and what situations and circumstances trigger specific emotions and behaviours in themselves.

 

And BAA, if the Holy Spirit has spoken to anyone just once, then sir, it is a process.

 

The process of perfection--also known as self-improvement--is a process, I agree.

 

As for holy spirits who upset money tables in markets and breathe tongues of fire in locked rooms of worship services and tell people to preach hellfire and brimstone to family members whose consciences convict them that God does not exist...These holy spirits are quite debatable when it comes to ethics, civil behaviour, and just plain decent living. They are less desirable to have around than the simple well-disciplined human being who feels at home in his/her body. So yeah, I suppose we'll know if the Holy Spirit has spoken--there will be chaos of a different sort than is left in the wake of things like hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, or even forest fires.

 

Okay, End, what sayest thou?

 

If you don't like the atheists expounding your scriptures for you then perhaps next time you will do it yourself.

 

Oh, let's see, you're not talking to me.

 

Whoopee! I can say whatever I like.

[bornagainathiest]

I think you need to go back to Sunday School BAA.....as well as critcal thinking class.

 

Hbr 10:13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

Hbr 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

And BAA, if the Holy Spirit has spoken to anyone just once, then sir, it is a process.

 

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Hebrews 10

 

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

 

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves.

For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

 

Something that occurs just once is not a process. That is the whole thrust of Paul's argument here. He compares the repeated sacrifices made by the Levitical priesthood with the one sacrifice made by Jesus. What Christ did is not repeated, not is it a process.

 

2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

 

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,

but a body you prepared for me;

6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings

you were not pleased.

7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—

I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a]

 

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.

10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

 

12 But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

 

13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

 

The Son sits down at the right hand of the Father until when? Until a specific, pre-ordained time - the Day of Judgement. That is the Second Coming of Christ. He does not appear again on Earth before then, or putting it another way, He does not need to repeat any part of God's plan. It is complete. Jesus confirmed this on the cross when he cried out, "It is finished!"

 

There is no on-going process involved in God's plan of salvation. Everything that was needed to reconcile men to God was finished, there and then, by that one sacrifice - which is the whole message of the book of Hebrews. One act of sacrifice replacing many. This is the stumbling block of the Jewish nation. To them, repeated sacrifices had always been needed for the forgivensss of sin - it was a never-ending, daily process. But look at what Paul says! All men need to do is to accept this and they are forgiven, saved and they have God's guarantee of their future perfection.

 

Please note End, that verse 14 says, '...has made perfect...', not '...is making perfect...'. Made perfect. Past tense. So, when in the past did this act of perfection occur? Well now, what's the whole message of the book of Hebrews?

 

Exactly!

 

Christ's one act of saving sacrifice. Not a repition of anything, nor a process. One action.

 

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

cont...

[bornagainathiest]

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/heb10.pdf

 

See verse 14? See the proper English translation? "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

http://biblos.com/hebrews/10-14.htm

 

And here? "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

 

http://concordances.org/greek/5048.htm

 

And the word, 'teteleiOken'? The root, teleio never means something in progress or something unfinished or something in the process of - it always means completion, accomplishment or fulfillment. You can see it here, in verse 30, when Jesus cries out, "It is finished!" on the cross.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh19.pdf Tetelestai... it has been finished/ it has been accomplished.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see it now, End?

 

Everything was finished and done two millennia ago, yet no Christian believers have ever became perfect at the moment they first believed. Nor have any of them become perfect before they died. There is no process of perfection in this mortal life. Christ's one act perfects all for all time. It doesn't matter when any believer lives and dies. The finished work of Jesus guarantees their future perfection, no matter what year or civilization or culture His believers live in. It is a promise, just like the promise of eternal life or the promise of co-inheritance of the kingdom of God.

 

Hebrews 11:39

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

No Christians have received God's promises yet. Only together (with the cloud of O.T. witnesses) will they be made perfect.

 

It's not a process End, it's a future event.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Okay, End, what sayest thou?

 

If you don't like the atheists expounding your scriptures for you then perhaps next time you will do it yourself.

 

Oh, let's see, you're not talking to me.

 

Whoopee! I can say whatever I like.

 

Well, I'm paying attention to you, R.S.

 

Thanks for the input here and 'Yes', I do generally agree with your criticisms of Christianity.

However, please note that I am in dialog with End3, not to persuade him that Christianity is false, but to show him that he is not an "Authentic Christian Believer" in the first place.

 

He excuses his un-Christian behavior by claiming that he is 'unfinished' or not fully 'perfected'.

His position is that there is an on-going process of 'finishing' or 'perfecting' that takes place during the Earthly lives of Christians. Therefore, he can cuss and badmouth and abuse others, because these actions proove that he is, as yet, unfinished and unperfected.

 

I aim to demonstrate to him that this is an un-Biblical, un-Christian notion.

No such process of 'on-going perfecting' exists within scripture. Therefore, he cannot use this dodge to excuse himself.

Therefore, as I have plainly shown from scripture, all of his sexual immorality, foul language and abuse stem from him NOT being a Christian at all. "You shall know them by their fruits", as Jesus aptly put it.

 

Taking the name of Jesus in vain, dishing out personal insults, using coarse language and inciting others to sexual immorality are not the behavioral (i.e., spiritual) fruit of an "Authentic Christian Believer".

 

So, thanks again and I'm glad this thread has caught your interest.

 

All the best,

 

BAA.