The Cross And The Resurrection

[asanerman]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

I read this and all that I understand as fine and noble, honorable and courageous about life is mocked!

 

An insurrection of all that is good rather than resurrection!

 

Life spat upon! All that is 'sacred,' raped!

[bdp]

Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

 

This clown doesn't honestly believe this, does he?

[Realist]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

... so you read it ONLY in the babble so it must be true ... kinda like saying I heard it on Fox News!

 

...

[mymistake]

Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact.

 

This clown doesn't honestly believe this, does he?

 

We haven't heard from "Believer" in a few days. There are thousands of Christians who would agree with what he wrote. Christian apologetic books have a market.

[JayL]

The humor aspect is once again very much appreciated. But now my posts are displaying this obscene avatar 'award' by the host. So I am assuming I am no longer welcome here despite my personal contribution to the site.

 

So it may be the time to bid Goodbye to all.

 

 

God bless you. And have a Merry Christmas!!!

 

Jay, in case you are still here, you have been insulted by BAA and others on this thread, as well as with your special graphic. You were not insulted randomly, there was a reason. You were trumpeting nonsense no less delusional than if you came here claiming that space aliens had posessed half the world's population and were planning to take over the planet and turn us all into slaves. The only difference is that perhaps some 80 percent of Americans and a large portion of the rest of the world share your particular delusion. We do not. Unlike the teeming billions, you showed up at our doorstep to promote and spread your delusion. You received no different a reception than you would have if you had come to spread the alien invasion delusion. On second thought, it may even have been a wee bit more presumptuous than peddling the alien invasion delusion, because you came back peddling the same poison that a lot of folks here are trying to detox from.

 

This morning, when I was headed off to work and did not have much time to spend online I thought about responding to your reaction to these jabs. You felt that you were required by your religion to not be angry, not lash back, and endure persecution for your god. You did not appreciate the humor, you are a human being. You felt it, maybe anger or hurt or distress, but you were god's representative. You may have invited it by spouting absurdities, but still it is not healthy for you. I figured it would get to you in some fashion or another.

 

I suggest you take an honest look at your beliefs and their basis. I suggest you honestly consider all the tough questions and challenges you have encountered at this site. You may yet expose that man behind the curtain and see how preposterous your belief is. Don't worry, it has happened to all of us.

 

 

 

 

Obviously the moderator was very offended by my remarks - so as to 'award' this obscene avatar. But hey, that is why this is Lion's Den. Christians are free to express their opinions in 'free for all' open discussion. And you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill against the truest of true believers -- like moi. So I am willing to be here. I am not angry at anybody. I enjoyed my time here. But that avatar is so damn ugly, I may avoid coming here...

 

Now, if the moderator finds it in his heart to overlook whatever the offence I have caused and remove that obscenity from my comment block, I may come to this board a lot more often!

[JayL]

Ok, no problemo! Thanks to the moderator, that 'obscene image award' is gone now. I am back to being an authentic Christian believer and ready for more discussion in this Lion's den! Thank you all.

[ShackledNoMore]

Obviously the moderator was very offended by my remarks - so as to 'award' this obscene avatar. But hey, that is why this is Lion's Den. Christians are free to express their opinions in 'free for all' open discussion. And you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill against the truest of true believers -- like moi. So I am willing to be here. I am not angry at anybody. I enjoyed my time here. But that avatar is so damn ugly, I may avoid coming here...

 

Now, if the moderator finds it in his heart to overlook whatever the offence I have caused and remove that obscenity from my comment block, I may come to this board a lot more often!

 

Jay, in spite of your efforts to re-addict people to your drug (because you yourself are brainwashed), I have a certain soft spot for you for being nice, although there's something warped about first stirring up an ant's nest and then taking the ensuing abuse on the chin and coming back for more.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, although I do not perceive the mods in general to be particularly easily offended. Xianity is patently absurd, but you are brainwashed and believe it, and free speech is permitted and it is a good thing, so I personally do not see it as an issue of being offended. I do see a perfectly normal reaction to being proselytized to, especially when the entire reason we are here is because we are EX-christians.

 

I also congratulate you on having something in common with virtually all of the other xians who have come a preachin'. They may not all agree with each other, and some of them may even think that others of them are "false christians" and are going to hell along with us non-believers, but like you, they all think they among the truest of believers!

[bdp]

you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill

 

 

I've never 'horn'-ed any skills. I've honed a few though. And I'm seriously supposed to believe you have some sort of degree? Everything about your manner suggests a nineteen-year-old.

[JayL]

you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill

 

 

I've never 'horn'-ed any skills. I've honed a few though. And I'm seriously supposed to believe you have some sort of degree? Everything about your manner suggests a nineteen-year-old.

you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill

 

 

I've never 'horn'-ed any skills. I've honed a few though. And I'm seriously supposed to believe you have some sort of degree? Everything about your manner suggests a nineteen-year-old.

 

 

 

It is true. I need to improve - a lot. Actually hanging out here and being corrected has been a help. Thank you for all the corrections.

[bdp]

Spoof. I'm not buying.

[JayL]

Obviously the moderator was very offended by my remarks - so as to 'award' this obscene avatar. But hey, that is why this is Lion's Den. Christians are free to express their opinions in 'free for all' open discussion. And you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill against the truest of true believers -- like moi. So I am willing to be here. I am not angry at anybody. I enjoyed my time here. But that avatar is so damn ugly, I may avoid coming here...

 

Now, if the moderator finds it in his heart to overlook whatever the offence I have caused and remove that obscenity from my comment block, I may come to this board a lot more often!

 

Jay, in spite of your efforts to re-addict people to your drug (because you yourself are brainwashed), I have a certain soft spot for you for being nice, although there's something warped about first stirring up an ant's nest and then taking the ensuing abuse on the chin and coming back for more.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, although I do not perceive the mods in general to be particularly easily offended. Xianity is patently absurd, but you are brainwashed and believe it, and free speech is permitted and it is a good thing, so I personally do not see it as an issue of being offended. I do see a perfectly normal reaction to being proselytized to, especially when the entire reason we are here is because we are EX-christians.

 

I also congratulate you on having something in common with virtually all of the other xians who have come a preachin'. They may not all agree with each other, and some of them may even think that others of them are "false christians" and are going to hell along with us non-believers, but like you, they all think they among the truest of believers!

Obviously the moderator was very offended by my remarks - so as to 'award' this obscene avatar. But hey, that is why this is Lion's Den. Christians are free to express their opinions in 'free for all' open discussion. And you 'ex-Christians' may want to horn your skill against the truest of true believers -- like moi. So I am willing to be here. I am not angry at anybody. I enjoyed my time here. But that avatar is so damn ugly, I may avoid coming here...

 

Now, if the moderator finds it in his heart to overlook whatever the offence I have caused and remove that obscenity from my comment block, I may come to this board a lot more often!

 

Jay, in spite of your efforts to re-addict people to your drug (because you yourself are brainwashed), I have a certain soft spot for you for being nice, although there's something warped about first stirring up an ant's nest and then taking the ensuing abuse on the chin and coming back for more.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, although I do not perceive the mods in general to be particularly easily offended. Xianity is patently absurd, but you are brainwashed and believe it, and free speech is permitted and it is a good thing, so I personally do not see it as an issue of being offended. I do see a perfectly normal reaction to being proselytized to, especially when the entire reason we are here is because we are EX-christians.

 

I also congratulate you on having something in common with virtually all of the other xians who have come a preachin'. They may not all agree with each other, and some of them may even think that others of them are "false christians" and are going to hell along with us non-believers, but like you, they all think they among the truest of believers!

 

 

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

 

For example, I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done. There is not much to do to receive blessings from God. It enable people to have a very positive outlook towards life and even on death. I believe these are HUGE advantages in living our daily lives. I believe Christianity is a really great religion - and as pointed above, very different from all the other spiritual systems out there. it is very unique.

[centauri]

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

I agree. Modern people are prone to desire instant gratification.

 

For example, I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done. There is not much to do to receive blessings from God. It enable people to have a very positive outlook towards life and even on death. I believe these are HUGE advantages in living our daily lives. I believe Christianity is a really great religion - and as pointed above, very different from all the other spiritual systems out there. it is very unique.

This seems to take a "once saved always saved" posture and ignores a few required works that believers are to do.

When you say it doesn't take much, how much does it take?

 

Are you saying that you don't need to do the following:

repent, believe, confess belief, be baptized, engage in charity, maintain belief

 

These are are things that need to be done according to the New Testament if a person wants salvation. Without these works, nothing is really done.

If you want chapter and verse I'll be happy to provide them.

[ShackledNoMore]

I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done.

 

I just googled for the number of commands in the bible. The two sources I followed on the first page of results both say there are 6,468 commands. That sounds sounds about right. Xianity pitches "DONE" but as any controlling, manipulative system it is really all about "DO," starting with embracing the xian paradigm.

[JayL]

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

I agree. Modern people are prone to desire instant gratification.

 

For example, I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done. There is not much to do to receive blessings from God. It enable people to have a very positive outlook towards life and even on death. I believe these are HUGE advantages in living our daily lives. I believe Christianity is a really great religion - and as pointed above, very different from all the other spiritual systems out there. it is very unique.

This seems to take a "once saved always saved" posture and ignores a few required works that believers are to do.

When you say it doesn't take much, how much does it take?

 

Are you saying that you don't need to do the following:

repent, believe, confess belief, be baptized, engage in charity, maintain belief

 

These are are things that need to be done according to the New Testament if a person wants salvation. Without these works, nothing is really done.

If you want chapter and verse I'll be happy to provide them.

 

 

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing.

 

So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

[JayL]

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

I agree. Modern people are prone to desire instant gratification.

 

For example, I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done. There is not much to do to receive blessings from God. It enable people to have a very positive outlook towards life and even on death. I believe these are HUGE advantages in living our daily lives. I believe Christianity is a really great religion - and as pointed above, very different from all the other spiritual systems out there. it is very unique.

This seems to take a "once saved always saved" posture and ignores a few required works that believers are to do.

When you say it doesn't take much, how much does it take?

 

Are you saying that you don't need to do the following:

repent, believe, confess belief, be baptized, engage in charity, maintain belief

 

These are are things that need to be done according to the New Testament if a person wants salvation. Without these works, nothing is really done.

If you want chapter and verse I'll be happy to provide them.

 

 

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing.

 

So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It was all DONE by Jesus Christ.

[JayL]

Happy New Year to all !!!

[ShackledNoMore]

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing. So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

 

So lack of evidence and fallacious arguments for the existence of the xian god notwithstanding, person A believes that biblegod/jesus exists, but opposes this god he believes in and also goes around raping, pillaging, and murdering. Thanks to his irrational belief, he goes to eternal paradise.

 

Person B is a selfless philanthropist who goes to great lengths to spread kindness, goodness, and compassion, and he also does not believe in any gods. He goes to hell.

 

That is as messed up as it is absurd!

 

It also presents additional difficulties:

 

1) Let us posit jesus exists and is a god that died so that we can be saved.

 

2) Let us further posit that the basis for salvation is merely to believe 1. That this jesus has "DONE" it all already.

 

3) The bible contains thousands of instructions for what we are supposed to do as biblegod believers. Some of these instructions contradict others. (The NT, incidently, says different things about one one needs to do to be saved in different places. It does support your postulate, item #2 in places while it gives different direction in other places. This is a root of doctrinal differences between various xian factions.)

 

4) So for 2 to be true, we are to conclude that some or all information provided in the bible, except that you need to believe on jesus christ to be saved, may be ignored.

 

5) This introduces an insurmountable problem since you have no basis to decide which piece of xian doctrine to not ignore.

 

6) Since you no longer have a basis for which doctrine you are to adopt, this introduces an additional problem of deciding which version of jesus/biblegod you need to believe. Trinitarian? Non=trinitarian? An omnipotent god? A resurrected jesus? A YEC god? A general generic xian god? A general generic god that a deist might believe in? A force? When does your god belief sufficiently vary from the "right" god belief so that you no longer meet the threshold for being saved? Perhaps even more importantly, how are you supposed to know?

[centauri]

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

I agree. Modern people are prone to desire instant gratification.

 

For example, I think one Christian writer put it well - he says there are only two kind of religions in the world. One says. DO and the other says DONE. In Christianity it is all done. There is not much to do to receive blessings from God. It enable people to have a very positive outlook towards life and even on death. I believe these are HUGE advantages in living our daily lives. I believe Christianity is a really great religion - and as pointed above, very different from all the other spiritual systems out there. it is very unique.

This seems to take a "once saved always saved" posture and ignores a few required works that believers are to do.

When you say it doesn't take much, how much does it take?

 

Are you saying that you don't need to do the following:

repent, believe, confess belief, be baptized, engage in charity, maintain belief

 

These are are things that need to be done according to the New Testament if a person wants salvation. Without these works, nothing is really done.

If you want chapter and verse I'll be happy to provide them.

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe.

Repenting means to regret and turn away from sin.

It's required.

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

Acts 17:30

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

 

Confession of sin is required because forgiveness is conditioned upon doing so.

 

1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved.

Baptism is required per Peter.

Note that he commands "every one of you" to do so.

 

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

At least some works of charity are required per Jesus:

Again, this isn't optional.

Those that fail to do at least some works of charity are sent to eternal punishment.

 

Matt 25:44-46 (NLT)

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

 

Maintaining belief is once again, just believing.

It's also an on-going work and it's required for salvation.

 

So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

No, it isn't.

The only way you don't have to do these things is if you've been predestined to salvation.

In that case, you don't have to do anything.

[JayL]

<< Repenting means to regret and turn away from sin. It's required.

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. >>

 

 

So I am supposed to believe that 3000 people 'regretted and turned away from their sins' in just one day! Wow. That is impressive. I wonder how they did all the restitution under their repentance. I guess they cleaned themselves up real well in just 1 day!

[NotBlinded]

 

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing.

 

So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

If it's all done, there is nothing to believe.

[JayL]

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing. So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

 

So lack of evidence and fallacious arguments for the existence of the xian god notwithstanding, person A believes that biblegod/jesus exists, but opposes this god he believes in and also goes around raping, pillaging, and murdering. Thanks to his irrational belief, he goes to eternal paradise.

 

Person B is a selfless philanthropist who goes to great lengths to spread kindness, goodness, and compassion, and he also does not believe in any gods. He goes to hell.

 

That is as messed up as it is absurd!

 

 

 

Person A is doomed to hell because his faith is false. True faith has to produce fruits. 'Faith without works is dead'.

 

Person B is also doomed because human goodness cannot win salvation.

[JayL]

 

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing.

 

So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

If it's all done, there is nothing to believe.

 

 

Unless you believe, you cannot receive.

[NotBlinded]

<< Repenting means to regret and turn away from sin. It's required.

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. >>

 

 

So I am supposed to believe that 3000 people 'regretted and turned away from their sins' in just one day! Wow. That is impressive. I wonder how they did all the restitution under their repentance. I guess they cleaned themselves up real well in just 1 day!

Hey, you believe in miracles don't ya?

[NotBlinded]

Repenting means changing one's mind and believing. Belief is believing. Confessing just means you already believe. Baptism and charity are NOT necessary to get saved. Maintaining belief is once again, just believing. So there is just one thing to do: Believe the Good News!!! It is all DONE by Jesus Christ.

 

So lack of evidence and fallacious arguments for the existence of the xian god notwithstanding, person A believes that biblegod/jesus exists, but opposes this god he believes in and also goes around raping, pillaging, and murdering. Thanks to his irrational belief, he goes to eternal paradise.

 

Person B is a selfless philanthropist who goes to great lengths to spread kindness, goodness, and compassion, and he also does not believe in any gods. He goes to hell.

 

That is as messed up as it is absurd!

 

 

 

Person A is doomed to hell because his faith is false. True faith has to produce fruits. 'Faith without works is dead'.

 

Person B is also doomed because human goodness cannot win salvation.

Oh...so Jesus didn't DO it all.

 

Wait, human goodness can't win salvation. What about that town that Jesus told his disciples to leave alone because their goodness was evidence of God working through them? He didn't say they had to believe in him. I don't think Paul was there to tell them that yet.

[midniterider]

 

 

I do not think Christianity is patently absurd. It is certainly different. But it has some real attraction for modern people.

 

 

 

Not really an attraction. More of a passing down of fear and guilt from one generation to the next. Christianity is the systematic incarceration of the critical thinking process: "Do not test god, Do not question god. We do not understand his ways. God is mysterious." In other words 'stop thinking' and do what the other brainwashed Christian says. Don't think for yourself. Think the way a brainwashed fool Jesus wants you to think.