The Cross And The Resurrection

[bornagainathiest]

YeahWell, I think you got me there. I should have checked Wikepedia for accuracy !! My excuse. It has been 30 years since I studied thru Jackson!!

 

I knew the whipper snapper will get me one of these days!

 

So you find the Aurora Borealis, "weird", Jay?

 

What about it's antipodal counterpart?

 

BAA.

 

 

Actually I did not address your original question about the rainbow. Why it did not exist before Noah's Flood. If you are still interested, I will give it a shot.

 

Jay,

 

The ability to persevere with a given subject is a hall-mark of disciplined thinking - exactly what we might expect from a trained and qualified Physicist. So, why don't we see that with you?

(That was a rhetorical question, btw, seeing as you aren't a trained and qualified Physicist.)

 

This is just another example of your lack of discipline. If you look back thru this thread you'll see that I never asked you any question about rainbows. Instead, you made the kindergarten-level mistake of claiming that Rayleigh scattering was the cause of rainbows. It isn't. I simply pointed that out, asking you no questions at all.

 

You've ****ed up again!

 

Quite frankly I don't care why you think rainbows didn't exist before Noah's (non-existent) Flood, but, if you want to embarrass and humiliate yourself further, please go for it and give us your poorly-considered, incoherent and dishonest thoughts.

 

Every court needs it's fool Jay and if the cap fits...?

 

 

 

BAA.

[ShackledNoMore]

For the record, I was the one who originally brought it up.

 

You claimed you were not a Young Earth Creationist and thereby (sort of) dodged one bullet, at the expense of opening up another can of worms. I just sort of assumed you did not believe in a literal Genesis style flood either, but I may have been mistaken in that assumption (or not, I suppose you could contend that the flood was localized and the kangaroos were always safe, but there was still no rainbow until the flood).

 

You see, that would be your new problem. What is true and historical and what is not? Or, which cherries do you pick, and how do you justify your choice. The rainbow is a good starting point. When was the flood? Can you try to follow the biblical genealogies from Noah to Jesus and claim that the flood was around four thousand years ago give or take, yet dismiss the genealogies from Adam to Noah, from which the YECs try to calculate that the world is 6000 years old? Why? How can you justify that? It has to be a good reason that is not just made up to support your pre-existing brainwashed, religious premises. I have never heard good justification, and you do not seem to be on the path to provide any (hint, there is none).

 

So, lets go ahead and assume for the sake of argument that biblegod created the universe 13 billion years ago, the solar system is 4 and a half billion years old, and that the flood occurred either around 4000 years ago or sometime within recent history after man was already established with a minimum of advanced stone age to bronze age technology.

 

Now you have more to address than "Why do we have rainbows now when we did not before the flood?"

 

1) You must defend, with good arguments, why the xian creation account is a myth, but the global (?) flood is not. On a broader level, you must explain which cherries are the correct ones to pick from the bible and why, and how you know that the cherries you picked represent the ultimate truth and those you didn't pick do not.

 

2) We all know that Rayleigh scattering is not what causes rainbows. I am not a physicist, but I can tell you what does, at least to a fairly superficial level like you might find in a Wikipedia article. If you're going to explain why rainbows started to exist only after the flood, I think the onus is upon you to provide that explanation of what causes a rainbow as part of your explanation.

 

By all means, I would be interested in seeing your attempt if you want to provide one, but the truth is, you have a whole lot of refresher homework to do before addressing this, and all of that information gathering will lead you away from the conclusion that rainbows suddenly started happening a few thousand years ago, not toward it. Alternatively, as BAA points out, you could just embarrass yourself with a poorly considered explanation.

[JayL]

YeahWell, I think you got me there. I should have checked Wikepedia for accuracy !! My excuse. It has been 30 years since I studied thru Jackson!!

 

I knew the whipper snapper will get me one of these days!

 

So you find the Aurora Borealis, "weird", Jay?

 

What about it's antipodal counterpart?

 

BAA.

 

 

Actually I did not address your original question about the rainbow. Why it did not exist before Noah's Flood. If you are still interested, I will give it a shot.

 

Jay,

 

The ability to persevere with a given subject is a hall-mark of disciplined thinking - exactly what we might expect from a trained and qualified Physicist. So, why don't we see that with you?

(That was a rhetorical question, btw, seeing as you aren't a trained and qualified Physicist.)

 

This is just another example of your lack of discipline. If you look back thru this thread you'll see that I never asked you any question about rainbows. Instead, you made the kindergarten-level mistake of claiming that Rayleigh scattering was the cause of rainbows. It isn't. I simply pointed that out, asking you no questions at all.

 

You've ****ed up again!

 

Quite frankly I don't care why you think rainbows didn't exist before Noah's (non-existent) Flood, but, if you want to embarrass and humiliate yourself further, please go for it and give us your poorly-considered, incoherent and dishonest thoughts.

 

Every court needs it's fool Jay and if the cap fits...?

 

 

 

BAA.

 

 

 

I really appreciate the humor aspect.

[JayL]

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

 

 

Well, if you put it that way, it sounds irrational and terrible. BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

[mymistake]

BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

 

Are you not listening? Do you have the ability to comprehend?

 

We have already been Christians. We know just how happy or not it made us. We know just how badly Christianity damaged us. We are ex Christians.

 

Please stop trying to sell your snake oil here because we know your claims are lies. Get it?

[Vigile]

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

 

 

Well, if you put it that way, it sounds irrational and terrible. BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

 

Uh, yeah. Gonna have to call bullshit. I'd give you a more detailed response, but with nothing but platitudes for offer on your end, bullshit is about all this deserves.

 

How in the hell can you offer such a stupid response to a group of people who have clearly experienced xianity and found every single claim you just made to be unsupported? Surely you're smarter than this?

[JayL]

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

 

 

Well, if you put it that way, it sounds irrational and terrible. BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

 

Uh, yeah. Gonna have to call bullshit. I'd give you a more detailed response, but with nothing but platitudes for offer on your end, bullshit is about all this deserves.

 

How in the hell can you offer such a stupid response to a group of people who have clearly experienced xianity and found every single claim you just made to be unsupported? Surely you're smarter than this?

 

 

 

I do admit Christianity is not an easy path. I have been in and out of faith multiple times. But thank God, eventually I found the real stuff! And once you find the 'real stuff', you will never go back. That is, you will never go back to agnostic stance. You may say, one becomes a 'true believer'. What I am asking is that you keep an open mind and not to be so negative.

[JayL]

BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

 

Are you not listening? Do you have the ability to comprehend?

 

We have already been Christians. We know just how happy or not it made us. We know just how badly Christianity damaged us. We are ex Christians.

 

Please stop trying to sell your snake oil here because we know your claims are lies. Get it?

BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

 

Are you not listening? Do you have the ability to comprehend?

 

We have already been Christians. We know just how happy or not it made us. We know just how badly Christianity damaged us. We are ex Christians.

 

Please stop trying to sell your snake oil here because we know your claims are lies. Get it?

 

 

 

Oh don't be so negative. Gospel will not damage you. It is all positive. Your sins are forgiven. You are no longer guilty before God because what Jesus has done. What is negative about that? That is the most positive message there is! There is nothing negative in Gospel message. Absolutely nothing. Zero, nada.

[Vigile]

 

 

I do admit Christianity is not an easy path. I have been in and out of faith multiple times. But thank God, eventually I found the real stuff! And once you find the 'real stuff', you will never go back. That is, you will never go back to agnostic stance. You may say, one becomes a 'true believer'. What I am asking is that you keep an open mind and not to be so negative.

 

Why is it discussions with you guys always feels like having a discussion with a computer bot? Where did I say anything about xianity being a hard path? I said that we have experienced it and found that your claims you made in the post I replied to plainly false.

 

On top of the fact that xianity is psychologically unhealthy for a human being, it just isn't grounded in reality. Moreover, truth has nothing to do with being positive or negative. It either is or it isn't. If you truly have an MA in physics then you should know what standards of evidence are and should be able to distinguish unsupported claims from supported claims. Yet you continue to just make unsupported claims and your appeal appears to be that if we would just embrace it, we would know. That's an appeal to emotion. Emotion is a lousy way to arrive at truth.

 

You won't make a dent here unless you can provide something solid. I admit I'm not holding my breath waiting for it.

[pratt]

jayL,

 

you kept mentioning about TRUE CHRISTIANITY, TRUE EXPERIENCE and OPEN OUR MIND,,,,,

 

i will keep my question short and concse, WHAT THE FUCK are you talking about? can you bloody hell spew it out clear and outright what you have in your muddled mind,,,,

 

are we supposed to be impressed with your in and out of faith,,,, or is this current phase an IN phase waiting for an OUT phase,,,,

 

most of the exC here thought their exExperience as real and personal and it was NOT,,,,,,

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

I really appreciate the humor aspect.

 

Thanks Jay!

 

Now why don't you give us your best shot at explaining all about Noah and the Rainbow? That is, taking into account the following conditions.

 

1.

You must write at least a thousand words of your own about this. Cutting and pasting other people's work won't count towards the total.

 

2.

You must cite all relevant Biblical references, giving chapter and verse and the version of the Bible they're taken from.

 

3.

Since you claim that we can forget all about the Old Testament, you must not refer to or cite anything at all from the Old Testament.

 

4.

All of your references to the Flood, Noah and the Rainbow must come from the New Testament, with appropriate citations of chapter, verse and Bible version.

 

5.

You must give us your personal analysis of the relevant Koine (see 4). Once again, cutting and pasting other people's work is not acceptable.

 

6.

You must include pre-Flood and post-Flood ray-tracing diagrams, showing how rainbows were impossible before God initiated them. This is so that we can compare the refractive index of light before and after God made His covenant with Noah.

 

7.

You must not make any errors in diction, grammar, syntax or spelling.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ShackledNoMore]

Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

 

 

Well, if you put it that way, it sounds irrational and terrible. BUT the real Christianity is quite wonderful. You can have genuine spiritual experiences by calling on the name of Jesus Christ and your outlook on life would become much more positive as your faith grows. You will become a much happier person overall. Furthermore, I believe the Bible is describing actual spiritual reality ( sin, salvation, eternal life, etc. )

It sounds irrational and terrible because it IS irrational and terrible. It's also absolutely consistent with the core teachings of christianity.

 

Although the real criteria to access christianity by is on its veracity or lack thereof, I can personally vouch that being a christian was not wonderful, that it does not promote a more positive outlook on life, and that I am a happier person as a non-believer. And it was not because christianity is not an "easy path." Yes, I do happen to be one of the ones that got F'ed up badly trying to believe an irrational faith levied upon me in Orwellian proportions, but the toll for leaving was very, very high. Provided you frame it in a way that you don't get too F'ed up, being a christian is a much easier path, because it is sanctioned by your family, your friends, and society. It is also an easier path because you have all your hard thinking done for you.

 

The "spiritual reality" is a fabrication to draw, retain, and control christians. Xian morality is not superior to other moral constructs, and biblical teachings on morality are often reprehensible, e.g., bigotry, slavery, homosexuality, and harsh punishment for breaking legalistic rules. All by itself, the malignment of sexuality in general turns everybody into artificial sin infested pond scum worthy of eternal hellfire. Far from wonderful, it is immensely psychologically damaging, but an elaborately overblown sales pitch on how destitute you are without the xian god and how badly you need him, in conjunction with an immensely large carrot and an immensely large stick keeps the sheeple under control.

[mymistake]

Oh don't be so negative.

 

 

Gospel will not damage you.

 

 

It is all positive.

 

 

 

Your sins are forgiven.

 

 

You are no longer guilty before God because what Jesus has done.

 

 

What is negative about that?

 

Just the part where God sacrifices himself to himself (even though it isn't really a sacrifice because he doesn't stay dead) because it's the only way God can forgive all the things that we do as mindless robots because God made us so there is no way to not sin even though this God hates sin and loves us and somehow this makes us guilty because God didn't want us to be the mindless robots that we actually are with respect to sin and God knew that billions of people either would never hear about this plan or wouldn't believe it because of a lack of evidence so God planed for them to all be tortured for all eternity. And the part where this list of sins is unrealistic so the Christian starts guilt tripping themselves and hating themselves for their very own nature - instincts that have been put into them after millions of years of evolution that stretch all the way back to when our ancestors were not even human. And all the emotional crap we have to go through while thinking about this human sacrifice that supposedly happened just for me even though it also happened just for every other Christian even though it never happened at all because all the characters are imaginary. Oh and how all the time and energy spent on this is completely wasted and you will never get that back. We only have a few years of life and none of it should be wasted trapped in a cult.

 

That is the most positive message there is!

 

 

There is nothing negative in Gospel message. Absolutely nothing. Zero, nada.

 

You are horrible at lying; not even the slightest bit convincing. Please tell me you don't fool yourself with your lies.

[JayL]

Oh don't be so negative.

 

 

Gospel will not damage you.

 

 

It is all positive.

 

 

 

Your sins are forgiven.

 

 

You are no longer guilty before God because what Jesus has done.

 

 

What is negative about that?

 

Just the part where God sacrifices himself to himself (even though it isn't really a sacrifice because he doesn't stay dead) because it's the only way God can forgive all the things that we do as mindless robots because God made us so there is no way to not sin even though this God hates sin and loves us and somehow this makes us guilty because God didn't want us to be the mindless robots that we actually are with respect to sin and God knew that billions of people either would never hear about this plan or wouldn't believe it because of a lack of evidence so God planed for them to all be tortured for all eternity. And the part where this list of sins is unrealistic so the Christian starts guilt tripping themselves and hating themselves for their very own nature - instincts that have been put into them after millions of years of evolution that stretch all the way back to when our ancestors were not even human. And all the emotional crap we have to go through while thinking about this human sacrifice that supposedly happened just for me even though it also happened just for every other Christian even though it never happened at all because all the characters are imaginary. Oh and how all the time and energy spent on this is completely wasted and you will never get that back. We only have a few years of life and none of it should be wasted trapped in a cult.

 

That is the most positive message there is!

 

 

There is nothing negative in Gospel message. Absolutely nothing. Zero, nada.

 

You are horrible at lying; not even the slightest bit convincing. Please tell me you don't fool yourself with your lies.

 

 

 

The humor aspect is once again very much appreciated. But now my posts are displaying this obscene avatar 'award' by the host. So I am assuming I am no longer welcome here despite my personal contribution to the site.

 

So it may be the time to bid Goodbye to all.

 

 

God bless you. And have a Merry Christmas!!!

[mymistake]

The humor aspect is once again very much appreciated. But now my posts are displaying this obscene avatar 'award' by the host. So I am assuming I am no longer welcome here despite my personal contribution to the site.

 

Maybe your "contribution" should not have made cheap shots at family tragedy. Ah but anyway don't let the door hit your head on the way out.

[centauri]

Gospel will not damage you. It is all positive.

The Gospel can damage you if Yahweh (or any other jealous deity) is "God" rather than Jesus.

Believing the Gospel in these cases only makes the deity madder and madder at you.

 

Your sins are forgiven. You are no longer guilty before God because what Jesus has done.

According to Yahweh, each person saves themselves by repenting and obeying his rules.

You may want to read Ezek 18:20-27 to discover that Jesus doesn't have a thing to do with salvation.

Christianity is revisionist theology, loosely based on the Old Testament.

 

What is negative about that? That is the most positive message there is! There is nothing negative in Gospel message. Absolutely nothing. Zero, nada.

The Gospel message is one of an ultimatum, the kind given by mafia lords.

Failure to accept the ultimatum results in punishment.

That's not positive, it's the essence of a fear based negative control system.

It only appears fluffy on the surface, until you look at the nasty need to dominate on the part of the deity.

[bornnormal]

Maaan, that award!

I dont get the rating system of this forum? Do you rate someones profile? Or modedrators place us in groups?

[mymistake]

I dont get the rating system of this forum? Do you rate someones profile? Or modedrators place us in groups?

 

You are in the Regular group. Some time soon, if not already, you will get the right to vote up posts you like. You will see a green arrow in the lower right corner and you get a certain number of ups per day so use them wisely. If five or more people like one of your posts then it gets a "Popular" star. Every vote up you earn goes on your profile page. So it encourages good writing.

 

If somebody starts preaching Christianity and being obnoxious then the mods move them from Regular group to the Believer group and they get the "Authentic Christian Believer" badge. edit: I am told that the Atheist badge is for those who request if from the mods. I've seen the "Where's my brain?" badge earned a couple of times. The people who got them worked hard at it. It's awarded by the mods.

 

thnx SNM

[ShackledNoMore]

The atheist badge can be obtained by requesting it from the mods. No connection with having never been a christian in the first place.

[ShackledNoMore]

On this little negative theme, you can't get much more negative than saying that we all deserve the worst imaginable torment for all eternity because (choose one or more, depending on which xians you ask) some chick ate an apple 6000 years ago OR the most virtuous person who ever lived committed some wrong at some point in his life (maybe s/he felt "urgings", maybe s/he missed church, maybe s/he deceived his or her parents by throwing peas under that table when s/he was 2 years old, maybe s/he farted sometime--burn baby burn) OR they did not believe a sales pitch that was demonstrably preposterous. No, that depraved pea pitching toddlers with heinous apple eating ancestors deserve eternal torture--THAT'S not negative!!!?????

[ShackledNoMore]

The humor aspect is once again very much appreciated. But now my posts are displaying this obscene avatar 'award' by the host. So I am assuming I am no longer welcome here despite my personal contribution to the site.

 

So it may be the time to bid Goodbye to all.

 

 

God bless you. And have a Merry Christmas!!!

 

Jay, in case you are still here, you have been insulted by BAA and others on this thread, as well as with your special graphic. You were not insulted randomly, there was a reason. You were trumpeting nonsense no less delusional than if you came here claiming that space aliens had posessed half the world's population and were planning to take over the planet and turn us all into slaves. The only difference is that perhaps some 80 percent of Americans and a large portion of the rest of the world share your particular delusion. We do not. Unlike the teeming billions, you showed up at our doorstep to promote and spread your delusion. You received no different a reception than you would have if you had come to spread the alien invasion delusion. On second thought, it may even have been a wee bit more presumptuous than peddling the alien invasion delusion, because you came back peddling the same poison that a lot of folks here are trying to detox from.

 

This morning, when I was headed off to work and did not have much time to spend online I thought about responding to your reaction to these jabs. You felt that you were required by your religion to not be angry, not lash back, and endure persecution for your god. You did not appreciate the humor, you are a human being. You felt it, maybe anger or hurt or distress, but you were god's representative. You may have invited it by spouting absurdities, but still it is not healthy for you. I figured it would get to you in some fashion or another.

 

I suggest you take an honest look at your beliefs and their basis. I suggest you honestly consider all the tough questions and challenges you have encountered at this site. You may yet expose that man behind the curtain and see how preposterous your belief is. Don't worry, it has happened to all of us.

[Vigile]

On this little negative theme, you can't get much more negative than saying that we all deserve the worst imaginable torment for all eternity because (choose one or more, depending on which xians you ask) some chick ate an apple 6000 years ago OR the most virtuous person who ever lived committed some wrong at some point in his life (maybe s/he felt "urgings", maybe s/he missed church, maybe s/he deceived his or her parents by throwing peas under that table when s/he was 2 years old, maybe s/he farted sometime--burn baby burn) OR they did not believe a sales pitch that was demonstrably preposterous. No, that depraved pea pitching toddlers with heinous apple eating ancestors deserve eternal torture--THAT'S not negative!!!?????

 

Add to that the message that you as a person are so hideously disgusting that god can't even look at you unless he covers you with his son's blood, viewing not you, but his son. The self esteem issues this creates in believers who actually contemplate what their pastors tell them each week wreaks more havoc than any high school bully ever could and is probably on par with the damage an abusive parent can cause.

[Astreja]

Oh don't be so negative. Gospel will not damage you.

Absolutely false.

 

The Gospel message is one of the most unspeakably vile teachings ever to poison human culture. It teaches that unless we convince ourselves that we are worthless, and subsequently accept a human sacrifice in our place, an invisible being will torture us until the end of time.

 

This is madness. This is an evil teaching that has psychologically damaged millions of people.

 

It is also the antithesis of morality. Jay, if you can't see a problem with letting someone die in your place, you are immoral and a sloppy thinker, and you are not someone whom I feel I could trust with a position of responsibility or an important task.

 

May your life come to reflect the reality of Christianity, not the feel-good nonsense you've barfed all over our site.

[Realist]

Oh don't be so negative. Gospel will not damage you. There is nothing negative in Gospel message. Absolutely nothing. Zero, nada.

 

... to some people that have suffered vilely at the hands of fundie parents, that is as insensitive as telling a woman rape will not have hurt her!

[Deva]

On this little negative theme, you can't get much more negative than saying that we all deserve the worst imaginable torment for all eternity because (choose one or more, depending on which xians you ask) some chick ate an apple 6000 years ago OR the most virtuous person who ever lived committed some wrong at some point in his life (maybe s/he felt "urgings", maybe s/he missed church, maybe s/he deceived his or her parents by throwing peas under that table when s/he was 2 years old, maybe s/he farted sometime--burn baby burn) OR they did not believe a sales pitch that was demonstrably preposterous. No, that depraved pea pitching toddlers with heinous apple eating ancestors deserve eternal torture--THAT'S not negative!!!?????

 

Add to that the message that you as a person are so hideously disgusting that god can't even look at you unless he covers you with his son's blood, viewing not you, but his son. The self esteem issues this creates in believers who actually contemplate what their pastors tell them each week wreaks more havoc than any high school bully ever could and is probably on par with the damage an abusive parent can cause.

 

 

I have been there Vigile. I have heard that message what, a thousand times, ten thousand? Its the most wretched programming ever. Add to that actual bullying and you have a situation that very likely will never be healed -- but progress has been made. The first step is to completely throw out all Christian ideas - that takes many years. I say if you are exposed to 8 years of this as a child/teenager and your parents believe it- you will be in your 40s before you can throw it out, and that is working on it everyday.