The Cross And The Resurrection

[Vigile]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief. A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle. And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son. But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

 

 

 

 

Deal with it.

 

Not only are you an idiot with no original thoughts, but you are a bad person. Anyone who would write such a mean-spirited, cold-hearted response to a father who endured and continues to endure what Oro has is just a shit human being.

 

If your heaven is real, why the hell would any of us want to be stuck with someone like you for an eternity? I know the people on this site well and they, unlike you, are caring, good-hearted people. You need to do some self examination. You think insults and blasphemy make a person bad whereas I think someone who cares so little for his fellow humans and someone who is merely smug when it comes to the hell doctrine makes a person bad. Your priorities are all fucked up.

[Astreja]

If the infinite God suffered for the 7 billion souls that exist in the world today, and suffered the equivalent of an eternity in hell times that 7 billion, that is not infinitesimal.

Only if your alleged god was now in its hell, and remaining there for eternity, would you have a case. Supposedly Jesus was only dead for about 2 days... And I'm not aware of any Biblical reference to him being conscious and suffering in hell during those 2 days. Certainly the punishment inflicted on him by the Romans was trivial compared to, say, the pain experienced by a child on the burn ward of a hospital.

 

The suffering of your imaginary friend is completely inconsequential compared to the suffering that it supposedly intends to inflict on nonbelievers.

As for your second question, haven't you ever heard of the Trinity?

If even *one* member of "the Trinity" was capable of action after the alleged death of Jesus, then your god never completely died and there was no actual sacrifice.

You not believing doesn't make hell not a real place, but it will put you there in the end. I can picture you standing in a pit with worms crawling through your skin and fire consuming you, saying, "This isn't real! This isn't real!"

I think you should think that through just a bit further, Believer.

 

Whenever you start imagining nonbelievers in that situation, may their faces become the faces of people you know and love in real life. May it happen over and over again, day and night, despite your best efforts to block the images, until you are no longer able to reconcile their suffering with your ludicrously evil idea of a "just" god.

 

And when your heart is broken from trying to defend the indefensible, may you finally find the compassion and wisdom to understand why we walked away from Christianity.

[R. S. Martin]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief. A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle. And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son. But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

 

 

 

 

Deal with it.

 

Not only are you an idiot with no original thoughts, but you are a bad person. Anyone who would write such a mean-spirited, cold-hearted response to a father who endured and continues to endure what Oro has is just a shit human being.

 

If your heaven is real, why the hell would any of us want to be stuck with someone like you for an eternity? I know the people on this site well and they, unlike you, are caring, good-hearted people. You need to do some self examination. You think insults and blasphemy make a person bad whereas I think someone who cares so little for his fellow humans and someone who is merely smug when it comes to the hell doctrine makes a person bad. Your priorities are all fucked up.

 

I hadn't even seen this yet. I wasn't sure if I should post what I had written, but I think I will. Ditto to what you said and here I go:

 

Believer, you are one evil man. (I can't imagine a woman would do what you did in Post 19.) I read your Post 19 and thought it's your own words because you don't give credit to anyone else. Many pages later I see someone reference it as Margee's so I dig. And dig. And discover that you got them out of her Testimony--a section that is sacrosanct from Christian trespassing and critique.

 

A man stomping over sacred territory and ripping out hearts is normally not seen as keeping the Golden Rule. Such a man normally becomes the target of hatred and cussing, if not bullets. Yet atheists and agnostics here have been so polite and decent to you that you haven't even realized the enormity of your sin. You have the audacity to claim that you are a new creature in Christ.

 

Christ will be ashamed of you. And no, his blood won't be enough to cleanse you of this iniquity. I haven't even mentioned yet that what you did is, technically speaking, ILLEGAL. It violates copyright law to quote someone else's words as your own. Sure, you wrote some stuff in red, and I suppose that passes the rules of this forum (I am aware that the supermod has been reading this), but how was I to know that it wasn't just two different types of your own thought?

 

In fact, that is what I thought it was. I saw the address to God--the "Dear Heavenly Father" part--and figured you're praying for God's guidance as you talk to us heathens. So I didn't bother reading the prayer. I just read the part where I thought you were talking to humans. You seemed to be addressing the various issues we exChristians bring against your religion.

 

To come across as an honest, law-abiding citizen, you should have followed copyright rules and clearly marked it as the Margee's words. To come across as an ethical human being with moral standards and a compassionate heart, you should have never started this thread. To get back in Christ's good graces I think you'll have to repent for breaking the law of the land and for offending "one of the least of these." Jesus said such people are worthy only of having a mill stone tied around their neck and being drowned in the depth of the sea (Matt. 18)

 

In case you claim Margee is not a "brethren," just take a look at what else Jesus said. Jesus said he is "the way, the life, and the truth," and that "I and the Father are one." Elsewhere, we are told that "God is truth." Thus, if God is truth, so is Jesus. Margee has demonstrated that she is a lover and seeker of truth. If Jesus and God equals truth, that makes Margee a "brethren." Like Jesus--and unlike what the Christies make him--Jesus sought what is really true and right in his own way, and it was revolutionary for his time and place.

 

Well, I'm a Humanist of the 21st century and I don't think we should kill people for messing up. So I suppose that makes me better--or more socially advanced--than your Jesus. In my opinion, if you hope to be accepted by us on any level you're going to have to clean up your act BIG TIME.

[Ro-bear]

but I have seen miracles that were indisputable.

 

I know, your gas needle was on E and yet god helped you drive the 17.6 miles to the next gas station.

 

Wonder why he didn't use his awesome power here though:

 

 

 

People have to do some things for themselves, Vigile. Not twenty feet behing this child is a bird that would make a bounteous table for the whole family. God wants these hungry people to grab a slingshot and get busy. Don't blame God for laziness!

[ChurchSucks]

Believer -

 

 

 

See 2 Corinthians 4:4: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

 

If man is truly free to make a decision, then why does he allow "the god of this age" to blind us and prevent us from believing?

[Margee]

 

here I go:

 

Believer, you are one evil man. (I can't imagine a woman would do what you did in Post 19.) I read your Post 19 and thought it's your own words because you don't give credit to anyone else. Many pages later I see someone reference it as Margee's so I dig. And dig. And discover that you got them out of her Testimony--a section that is sacrosanct from Christian trespassing and critique.

 

A man stomping over sacred territory and ripping out hearts is normally not seen as keeping the Golden Rule. Such a man normally becomes the target of hatred and cussing, if not bullets. Yet atheists and agnostics here have been so polite and decent to you that you haven't even realized the enormity of your sin. You have the audacity to claim that you are a new creature in Christ.

 

Christ will be ashamed of you. And no, his blood won't be enough to cleanse you of this iniquity. I haven't even mentioned yet that what you did is, technically speaking, ILLEGAL. It violates copyright law to quote someone else's words as your own. Sure, you wrote some stuff in red, and I suppose that passes the rules of this forum (I am aware that the supermod has been reading this), but how was I to know that it wasn't just two different types of your own thought?

 

In fact, that is what I thought it was. I saw the address to God--the "Dear Heavenly Father" part--and figured you're praying for God's guidance as you talk to us heathens. So I didn't bother reading the prayer. I just read the part where I thought you were talking to humans. You seemed to be addressing the various issues we exChristians bring against your religion.

 

To come across as an honest, law-abiding citizen, you should have followed copyright rules and clearly marked it as the Margee's words. To come across as an ethical human being with moral standards and a compassionate heart, you should have never started this thread. To get back in Christ's good graces I think you'll have to repent for breaking the law of the land and for offending "one of the least of these." Jesus said such people are worthy only of having a mill stone tied around their neck and being drowned in the depth of the sea (Matt. 18)

 

In case you claim Margee is not a "brethren," just take a look at what else Jesus said. Jesus said he is "the way, the life, and the truth," and that "I and the Father are one." Elsewhere, we are told that "God is truth." Thus, if God is truth, so is Jesus. Margee has demonstrated that she is a lover and seeker of truth. If Jesus and God equals truth, that makes Margee a "brethren." Like Jesus--and unlike what the Christies make him--Jesus sought what is really true and right in his own way, and it was revolutionary for his time and place.

 

Well, I'm a Humanist of the 21st century and I don't think we should kill people for messing up. So I suppose that makes me better--or more socially advanced--than your Jesus. In my opinion, if you hope to be accepted by us on any level you're going to have to clean up your act BIG TIME.

R.S. This is exactly my 2,000th post as of right now and I could not think of a finer post to say thank you for your wisdom , caring and friendship!

I sincerely hope that every christian who comes on this site will read your very wise words. You are one heck of a human!!

 

I hope to never allow a brainwashed christian to ever upset me the way this person did! Thanks to all of you who came to my rescue!!

 

Hallelujah for my 2,000th post (some good - some bad ) Hallelujah to wise people on this forum and Hallelujah for this site that has helped me to heal more in the past year, then ever before in my life!

 

Love to you all! Sincerely, Margee

[Positivist]

I have a challenge for you. It's a challenge I have given many Christians in the past but all failed. My son is in a need of a miracle. He can't walk. If you can pray to God for that miracle and it happens, I will convert to your belief. Medically, it's impossible. Only a true supernatural miracle could change this. So get to it. Start praying.

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process. Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own.

 

Bullshit. (I am entering this conversation late but had to say something to this rubbish.)

 

What a slap in the face to Ouroboros, believer.

 

I am a nurse and I have *never* seen healings of any kind except where they were naturally going to occur--i.e. resolution of spinal shock. I have seen believers' families torn to shreds over paraplegia and quadriplegia. And God did nothing. These godly, Bible-believing servants of God prayed, fasted and did everything 'right'. They had visions and dreams and so did their friends. And you know what? Nothing changed. A few more decubitus ulcers, cycstitis and pneumonia. They rotted away, their families and friends scattered over time (decades) and marriages are on the rocks.

 

And lastly, I find it appalling that you (believer) say that sometimes God heals and sometimes he heals through a "process" or through medical professionals. Allah heals the same way.

 

Garbage. I hope you're banned. You are mean spirited and judgmental. If you are the standard, I can't believe I used to be a Christian.

[debra]

It seems to me like you atheists and agnostics are ignoring the facts, theological discussions aside. Jesus dying on the Cross and rising from the dead is a historical fact. There is an empty tomb in Israel today, and it was the very same tomb that they put Jesus in for three days. If a man rising from the dead doesn't prove the reality of God, I don't know what does. Not to mention the fact that during his ministry Jesus claimed to be God, the great I AM of Exodus 3:15 (John 8:58-59).

 

Not to mention what scientists have found in the simple cell, that it is more complex than a space shuttle in its make-up. That's the building blocks of life. How did it evolve?

 

I don't see the logic in any view except intelligent design.

 

Jesus' life, death, and resurrection changed the course of history.

 

 

 

show me proof that this specific tomb, now empty, was the one this jesus rose from. There are lots of empty tombs there. show me your proof. show me proof, if jesus existed, that he was god's son. proof. not quotes from your bronze age book of "borrowed myths" but hard evidence.

 

i ask to see your proof. if all you have are bible quotes, don't bother.

[JayL]

<< You promise to read this first and then I'll get back to you!

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1 >>

 

 

Thanks for your heart felt testimony. But I simply cannot agree with your assumptions about God. You said, God is all powerful and why does He allow evil to exist?? Unfortunately so many skeptics operate under this false 'theology'.

 

 

It is false theology to claim 'God is all powerful'. According to my understanding of the Bible, God is NOT all powerful. For example, God cannot prevent people from going to hell. ( According to the Bible, it is God's will that all people would be saved. But he cannot make that happen. Ergo, God is not all powerful!! ) In the same vein, in most cases, God CAN NOT stop people from committing evil acts.

 

 

My guess is that a lot of spiritual struggle you have been experiencing may have to do with a false understanding of God of the Bible.

[JayL]

Believer -

 

 

 

See 2 Corinthians 4:4: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

 

If man is truly free to make a decision, then why does he allow "the god of this age" to blind us and prevent us from believing?

 

 

 

In my understanding of the Bible, God is currently NOT in control of this world. "The god of this age", Satan is free to act by deceiving people. It is a job for us Christians to take a stand, to expose the lies of Satan, and open people's eyes so they can find salvation in Jesus Christ.

[JayL]

but I have seen miracles that were indisputable.

 

I know, your gas needle was on E and yet god helped you drive the 17.6 miles to the next gas station.

 

Wonder why he didn't use his awesome power here though:

 

 

 

 

As I understand the Bible, God does not have 'awesome power' to intervene in this situation. Yes, God exists. But not in this world!!! God is Spirit and He is Heaven. According to the Bible, Man was supposed to be the master of this world, until Satan deceived them and they 'fell'. And because we 'fell', things like this happen all the time in this world of suffering and sadness. And there is not much God can do about it. Well... almost...

[JayL]

Just remembered Hebrews 6, and am giving up. If any of you ever really had a relationship with Christ and then rejected Him later, you cannot come back. Your only hope is if you never knew Him in the first place. Your unbelief doesn't prove His inexistence or lack of love toward you. But if you want to prove that God isn't real, prove to me that Hebrews 6 is a lie by returning to Jesus.

 

 

No, you are not giving up because of Hebrews 6 which states, in relevant part, the following:

 

⁴ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵ who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age ⁶ and who have fallen^[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. ⁷ Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. ⁸ But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

Hebrews 6:4-8

 

The reason I know that the above-quoted verses are not your reason for "giving up" is because if you had read the testimonials on this forum, if you had read Margee's letter with a humane heart, then you would know that many people who come here have not deconverted and declared themselve ex-Christians. You would know that many are questioning the truth of the religion, who are devastated by what they are learning about the lies in the bible, and who are desperately trying to convince themselves that the religion is true. If you truly desired to share the "truth" and help people, then you would stay around and hope that your message would help these struggling people reconcile their doubts with this great truth you proclaim.

 

The real reason you are "giving up" is because you have been confronted by people who were true and sincere believers, who tithed their hard-earned money, who were leaders in their churches, who are well-educated, who know the bible probably better than you do, who have struggled mightily, who have suffered depression because of their findings, who have cried countless tears, who have begged god in their desperation to reveal himself to them and were answered with callous silence, and who live their lives in a "Christian" society and are outcasts because of the terrible truth they learned. And you have no convincing response to their arguments. You have nothing more than the same tired rhetoric that we have all heard a million times, the same rhetoric that caused us to question the religion in the first place.

 

You have given up because you don't want to be confronted by the real truth because that truth is harsh. For many of us, it did not come as a joyful epiphany. Rather, it came as a cold hard slap in the face, requiring us to re-think our entire lives and to have to rebuild our foundations where it was once composed of your bible as the cornerstone.

 

So I bid you farewell. Go back to your nice and comfortable bubble where you have convinced yourself that you have special insights that none of us ever had in the first place and leave us to continue our difficult task of rebuilding our lives and recovering from the lies we were told for so many years.

 

 

 

First of all, most of people who have lost their faith CAN come back. And many do. People go in and out of 'faith' and churches all the time. Hebrew passage refers to something much more extreme.

 

Secondly, being confronted with truths is always good. My God is God of Truth. I have nothing against 'truth'.

 

And I have read Margee's testimony. But in my opinion, she suffers from some serious theological misunderstandings about God. Most skeptics and atheists do. Perhaps after clearing up those misunderstanding they would not be so angry towards God and about Christianity.

[Vigile]

 

As I understand the Bible, God does not have 'awesome power' to intervene in this situation. Yes, God exists. But not in this world!!! God is Spirit and He is Heaven. According to the Bible, Man was supposed to be the master of this world, until Satan deceived them and they 'fell'. And because we 'fell', things like this happen all the time in this world of suffering and sadness. And there is not much God can do about it. Well... almost...

 

Ok, so another true™ interpretation of a bronze age book.

 

This still leaves you with the problem that god in his own realm created a system of infinite punishment for finite crimes. It doesn't require absolute power or anything close to create a system more just. Heck most of we impotent humans have created far more just systems to deal with our problems.

 

I know, I know, he's not powerful enough to overcome his own nature. In that case, he has a pretty shitty nature. Despotic is probably an apt description.

[JayL]

 

As I understand the Bible, God does not have 'awesome power' to intervene in this situation. Yes, God exists. But not in this world!!! God is Spirit and He is Heaven. According to the Bible, Man was supposed to be the master of this world, until Satan deceived them and they 'fell'. And because we 'fell', things like this happen all the time in this world of suffering and sadness. And there is not much God can do about it. Well... almost...

 

Ok, so another true™ interpretation of a bronze age book.

 

This still leaves you with the problem that god in his own realm created a system of infinite punishment for finite crimes. It doesn't require absolute power or anything close to create a system more just. Heck most of we impotent humans have created far more just systems to deal with our problems.

 

I know, I know, he's not powerful enough to overcome his own nature. In that case, he has a pretty shitty nature. Despotic is probably an apt description.

 

As I understand the Bible, God does not have 'awesome power' to intervene in this situation. Yes, God exists. But not in this world!!! God is Spirit and He is Heaven. According to the Bible, Man was supposed to be the master of this world, until Satan deceived them and they 'fell'. And because we 'fell', things like this happen all the time in this world of suffering and sadness. And there is not much God can do about it. Well... almost...

 

Ok, so another true™ interpretation of a bronze age book.

 

This still leaves you with the problem that god in his own realm created a system of infinite punishment for finite crimes. It doesn't require absolute power or anything close to create a system more just. Heck most of we impotent humans have created far more just systems to deal with our problems.

 

I know, I know, he's not powerful enough to overcome his own nature. In that case, he has a pretty shitty nature. Despotic is probably an apt description.

 

 

 

Actually God is the opposite of despot. You may think your life is pretty shitty, this world is horrible, and feel real bitter about God not intervening. But that is a price of freedom. God has created this world where freedom exists. And this world has possibility to turn very, very bad. Or it can become better than before. A lot depends on us, human beings. This is what the Bible teaches, as far as I understand it. All the way from Genesis.

 

Once again, ask me any question about the Bible. I will try my best to answer.

[JayL]

<< This still leaves you with the problem that god in his own realm created a system of infinite punishment for finite crimes. >>

 

 

Isn't it a lot like everyday danger we experience? One moment we are enjoying beautiful view from a mountain top. Next moment, your feet slips and you fall to chasm, losing your life and your everything. I made one finite, insignificant mistake and the cost, 'punishment of loss' was so huge. Isn't life terrifying??

[Vigile]

 

 

Actually God is the opposite of despot. You may think your life is pretty shitty, this world is horrible, and feel real bitter about God not intervening. But that is a price of freedom. God has created this world where freedom exists. And this world has possibility to turn very, very bad. Or it can become better than before. A lot depends on us, human beings. This is what the Bible teaches, as far as I understand it. All the way from Genesis.

 

 

 

Why is it you xians have such horrific reading comprehension problems? You seem intelligent enough. I didn't mention anything about personal happiness.

 

Let's try it this way. If a human king decreed he would give wealth and riches to those who sing his praises and lick his boots, but would put liars, those with impure thoughts in the dungeon and stretch them on a rack unless they chose to lick his boots and sing his praises, even you would recognize him as a despot unless your pastor stayed one step ahead of you and spun the story with simplistic platitudes.

 

Once again, ask me any question about the Bible. I will try my best to answer.

 

What could you possibly tell us that we don't already know? Moreover, why would we care what the bible has to say anymore than we care what the Iliad has to say beyond secular historical study?

[Vigile]

<< This still leaves you with the problem that god in his own realm created a system of infinite punishment for finite crimes. >>

 

 

Isn't it a lot like everyday danger we experience? One moment we are enjoying beautiful view from a mountain top. Next moment, your feet slips and you fall to chasm, losing your life and your everything. I made one finite, insignificant mistake and the cost, 'punishment of loss' was so huge. Isn't life terrifying??

 

When I slip and die, I'm not tortured eternally, I'm just dead, like I was before I was conceived. I don't recall it being such a bad thing. I can certainly fathom eternal torture as a very bad thing. In fact, it's so bad I wouldn't sentence Hitler to such a fate if I were on his jury panel. That makes me kinder than your concept of god.

[ShackledNoMore]

Help me out, Jay...

 

You just said that (bible)god is not all powerful. You said that it is "false theology."

 

It seems you differ with most xians on that point, and that unlike you, most xians subscribe to false theology.

 

You also said that most skeptics and atheists suffer serious theological misunderstandings about god. It seems you forgot to mention that most christians also apparently suffer serious theological misunderstandings.

 

I do know that as a skeptic and an atheist and a deconverted former christian that I have given the bible considerably more attention that the average christian. Frankly, from a christian perspective, I don't see better support for your theological claim than the majority xian theological claim. Sure, as with anything, you could mine the right bible verses to support your claim, e.g., that it seems that biblegod is sometimes not powerful enough to deal with, say, iron chariots, but the "wrongthinking" xian majority can come up with just as much or more biblical support for their theological position.

 

I'm also confused because both you and Thumbelina have recently set us straight on "false theology." I have not heard anything from you about her minority xian view of hell being only temporary (until the damned are snuffed out of existence) or from her about biblegod not being all powerful, and I assume that you most likely differ with each other on these points, yet you have each assured us with the utmost sincerity and certainty that you are right. I think that you, Thumbelina, Believer, End, and others should all get together and get your story straight on what is the "true theology." Either that, or the victor should be able to demonstrate clearly to the satisfaction of all why he or she is correct and all the other xians are wrong. Actual evidence and a compelling argument as to why your claims are correct would be a big plus.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

SNM

[mymistake]

First of all, most of people who have lost their faith CAN come back. And many do. People go in and out of 'faith' and churches all the time. Hebrew passage refers to something much more extreme.

 

Secondly, being confronted with truths is always good. My God is God of Truth. I have nothing against 'truth'.

 

Then why do you keep mentioning the Bible which is full of lies?

 

 

And I have read Margee's testimony. But in my opinion, she . . .

 

you should keep your opinion to yourself. Don't go reading people's testimonies and then telling us your opinion about them. Very bad form.

[JayL]

<< Let's try it this way. If a human king decreed he would give wealth and riches to those who sing his praises and lick his boots, but would put liars, those with impure thoughts in the dungeon and stretch them on a rack unless they chose to lick his boots and sing his praises, even you would recognize him as a despot unless your pastor stayed one step ahead of you and spun the story with simplistic platitudes. >>

 

You do not have to sing God's praises ( and lick his boots ) to survive and avoid punishment. In fact most people should not sing God's praises because they do not know all that much about God nor have they experienced Him.

 

It is true that God is sovereign and eventually He will punish rebellious Satan - and people who side with Satan and against God. But for you and me, it is very easy to stay out of this cosmic battle - and to get on the good side of God. The Bible teaches that Salvation is a gift and all you have to do is to receive it. You hardly have to do anything. Just RECEIVE the salvation as a gift. And it would be Ok. Anyhow, this is what the Bible teaches.

[bdp]

...you're a spoof, aren't you?

[Vigile]

Just RECEIVE the salvation as a gift.

 

Just that easy huh? Ok, all you have to do to escape the wrath of the Grinch, is accept the gifts Santa offers.

 

Think the above is a nonsensical tale because the story is ridiculously far-fetched and I offer no evidence beyond circular reasoning that it's true? Kinda hard to accept those gifts if you don't believe because it's nonsensical to you, right?

 

Anyway, I've already done that. It didn't stick once I decided to engage my brain.

[Margee]

<< You promise to read this first and then I'll get back to you!

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1 >>

 

 

Thanks for your heart felt testimony. But I simply cannot agree with your assumptions about God. You said, God is all powerful and why does He allow evil to exist?? Unfortunately so many skeptics operate under this false 'theology'.

 

 

It is false theology to claim 'God is all powerful'. According to my understanding of the Bible, God is NOT all powerful. For example, God cannot prevent people from going to hell. ( According to the Bible, it is God's will that all people would be saved. But he cannot make that happen. Ergo, God is not all powerful!! ) In the same vein, in most cases, God CAN NOT stop people from committing evil acts.

 

 

My guess is that a lot of spiritual struggle you have been experiencing may have to do with a false understanding of God of the Bible.

You don't call THIS powerful below?????? Jezzzeeusss man - get a life!!

 

All he has to do is 'say' something and it comes into 'being'!!! Jesus! If that's not powerful -I don't know what is!!!!

 

Genesis 1

 

The Beginning

 

¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

³ And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. ⁴ God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. ⁵ God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

 

⁶ And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” ⁷ So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. ⁸ God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

 

⁹ And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. ¹⁰ God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

 

¹¹ Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. ¹² The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. ¹³ And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

 

¹⁴ And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, ¹⁵ and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. ¹⁶God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. ¹⁷ God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, ¹⁸ to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.

 

¹⁹ And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

²⁰ And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” ²¹So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. ²²God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” ²³ And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

 

²⁴ And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. ²⁵God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

 

²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

[JayL]

Help me out, Jay...

 

You just said that (bible)god is not all powerful. You said that it is "false theology."

 

It seems you differ with most xians on that point, and that unlike you, most xians subscribe to false theology.

 

You also said that most skeptics and atheists suffer serious theological misunderstandings about god. It seems you forgot to mention that most christians also apparently suffer serious theological misunderstandings.

 

I do know that as a skeptic and an atheist and a deconverted former christian that I have given the bible considerably more attention that the average christian. Frankly, from a christian perspective, I don't see better support for your theological claim than the majority xian theological claim. Sure, as with anything, you could mine the right bible verses to support your claim, e.g., that it seems that biblegod is sometimes not powerful enough to deal with, say, iron chariots, but the "wrongthinking" xian majority can come up with just as much or more biblical support for their theological position.

 

I'm also confused because both you and Thumbelina have recently set us straight on "false theology." I have not heard anything from you about her minority xian view of hell being only temporary (until the damned are snuffed out of existence) or from her about biblegod not being all powerful, and I assume that you most likely differ with each other on these points, yet you have each assured us with the utmost sincerity and certainty that you are right. I think that you, Thumbelina, Believer, End, and others should all get together and get your story straight on what is the "true theology." Either that, or the victor should be able to demonstrate clearly to the satisfaction of all why he or she is correct and all the other xians are wrong. Actual evidence and a compelling argument as to why your claims are correct would be a big plus.

 

Thank you for your consideration.

 

SNM

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. Most Christians have mistaken notions about God. That is why many are unhappy. And I do agree that the Bible is not an easy book. Rather I should say that the bible is not a normal book. It is actually a supernatural book unlike any other books out there. One should not approach is like a normal book. It is very different.

 

Thmubelina sounds like a cool gal. I also have some doubts about 'eternal punishment' idea! Biblical support for that notion is quite weak. Anyhow, even if we all get together and tell you the same story, why would you believe us? You and I, and everyone else are all on individual spiritual journey towards the truth. We can help each other to some degree but ultimately it is up to us, individually.

[JayL]

Just RECEIVE the salvation as a gift.

 

Just that easy huh? Ok, all you have to do to escape the wrath of the Grinch, is accept the gifts Santa offers.

 

Think the above is a nonsensical tale? Kinda hard to accept those gifts if you don't believe because it's nonsensical to you, right?

 

Anyway, I've already done that. It didn't stick once I decided to engage my brain.

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is that easy. Because it ALL depends on Jesus, not on you and me. Jesus has totally finished the work required for human salvation.

 

The Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ, is saying to us and to all, simply to RECEIVE that Salvation from God. By faith - because right now, you would not understand the full picture by your intellect alone. Anyhow this is what the Bible teaches.