The Cross And The Resurrection

[Ouroboros]

If my days are numbered, then so should the days be numbered of the person that I responded to. Or is there a doublke standard here? Unbelievers are allowed to curse and swear and insult people, but believers don't have the same right? You hypocrites!

You're a guest here. They're not.

 

And obviously, you don't have the fruits of the Spirit, which is a giveaway that you're not a True Christian™ after all.

[believer]

You're an ass! Or better yet, you're a horse's tail! Answer a fool according to his folly...

Spoken like a True Christian™. You could learn a bit or two from Thumbelina or End3.

 

Your days on this website are numbered...

 

If my days are numbered, then so should the days be numbered of the person that I responded to. Or is there a doublke standard here? Unbelievers are allowed to curse and swear and insult people, but believers don't have the same right? You hypocrites!

 

 

It actually has little to do with cursing. His point is end3 and Thumblina have stuck around for awhile. Like a year or more I think in end's case. Because they can argue better then you.

 

However, I am not a mod. The general rule of thumb in any forum situation is DON"T piss off the mods. OB can put up with alot and has. But Don't get personal. Attack the arguments, not the person.

 

Thumb is good about doing that. i think she only wandered into personal territory a few times and got quickly smacked down. end is just to laid back a guy to get let much bother him for to long.

 

saying that OB is a horse's ass was a personal attack.

 

He called me an ass first.

 

As I said, hypocrisy.

 

Oh, it's your playground? Okay, fine, I'll play by your rules. It doesn't make you any less hypocritical.

[believer]

If my days are numbered, then so should the days be numbered of the person that I responded to. Or is there a doublke standard here? Unbelievers are allowed to curse and swear and insult people, but believers don't have the same right? You hypocrites!

You're a guest here. They're not.

 

And obviously, you don't have the fruits of the Spirit, which is a giveaway that you're not a True Christian™ after all.

 

Double standard. hypocrites!

[Margee]

People of Jesus' day believed in the resurrection because it was an indisputable fact.

 

Prove it. Prove that the resurrection was an indisputable fact. And no, that does not mean quote Bible verses at me. You would need to provide an overwhelming level of objective evidence, that is that there must be much more evidence for the resurrection than all alternatives.

mymistake......THIS!! *****

[Ouroboros]

 

His dad should take him to a faith healer that is reputed for actual healings, such as Bethel in Redding, CA.

We took him to a faith healer in 1999. It is a church with 3,000 members and outreach around the world. We got letters from China, Russia, and Africa even. And we have a framed letter from president Bill Clinton that he was praying for our son as well. If God can't hear that, is he deaf?

[Ouroboros]

Double standard. hypocrites!

Deal with it.

[believer]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief. A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle. And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son. But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

 

 

 

 

Deal with it.

[believer]

People of Jesus' day believed in the resurrection because it was an indisputable fact.

 

Prove it. Prove that the resurrection was an indisputable fact. And no, that does not mean quote Bible verses at me. You would need to provide an overwhelming level of objective evidence, that is that there must be much more evidence for the resurrection than all alternatives.

mymistake......THIS!! *****

 

Why won't you accept what the Bible says as evidence? Because the people who wrote it were so convinced of what they were writing, and others rejected threir words? You find the same thing today. The fact that the authors of the Bible were convinced enough to die for their faith is objective evidence. You don't believe that evidence though, because they were constrained to tell the truth under penalty of the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

[Margee]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief. A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle. And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son. But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

 

 

 

 

Deal with it.

 

There are ONLY, approximately 37 miracles performed by Jesus, recorded in the whole New Testament???

THAT LEAVES MOST PEOPLE IN THE CATAGORY OF 'UNBELIEF'!! HE WAS GOD?????

 

Jeeeeesus, even I've performed more than that in my life. I haven't got the walking on water down pat yet....Maybe 10 more pounds....................

[believer]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

I would also suggest not looking at the circumstances if they seem to be too overwheming, such as thinking that God could not heal him because of the extensive damage. God has done regenerative miracles before, and he can do so again. By saying this I am trying to boost your faith a little so you can receive your miracle. But if you don't have the faith for it, it won't happen.

 

I feel for your son, and I will pray for him. I don't guaranee that God will say yes, because as long as you are asking for it to take place as a sign that God is real, I don't think He will say yes.

 

You must start with the premise that God is real. Haven't you ever looked up into the clear, blue sky? Where does it stop? If it does stop somewhere, what is beyond the stopping point? When I sawe these things, it seemed to me before that infinity was impossible, but I found proof of infinity in the creation.

 

I don't know how you could have looked at the creation as a young child and not realized the existence of a designer that designed and created everything that you saw, unless you were brainwashed by those evolution videos where they say over and over again, "billions and billions of years ago..." until you believe it.

[stryper]

 

Why won't you accept what the Bible says as evidence? Because the people who wrote it were so convinced of what they were writing, and others rejected threir words? You find the same thing today. The fact that the authors of the Bible were convinced enough to die for their faith is objective evidence. You don't believe that evidence though, because they were constrained to tell the truth under penalty of the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

 

 

Why won't we because the bible says it. The bible is a mythological text that has some basis in history. Just like the Koran, and numerous other religious texts around the world. It is no different from the book of Mormon in that regard. Yet you would say but the bible is different. it isn't.

 

Irish nationalist were convinced enough to die for their faith. So were Nazis, Communist, The Viet Cong, the Minutemen, le Resistance (or is it la ) , Quebecois about speaking French, the South......etc etc etc.

 

going to Church history the Cathars believed and died for their belief. Numerous people declared heretic.

 

The point being many people through out history have died for what they believed was right or correct. That only provides evidence that they believed that way. It has nothing to do evidence of truth.

[oddbird1963]

Why won't you accept what the Bible says as evidence? Because the people who wrote it were so convinced of what they were writing, and others rejected threir words? You find the same thing today. The fact that the authors of the Bible were convinced enough to die for their faith is objective evidence. You don't believe that evidence though, because they were constrained to tell the truth under penalty of the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

Once again you act like "authors of the bible were convinced enough to die for their faith. . ." is an established fact. Where do you get this from? What actual historian or archaeologist actually provides evidence for this? You're just parroting things you naively heard from other people.

 

You have given us no reason to believe that what you say you believe is true. Put up or shut up. It's common sense. If you want to claim that the far-fetched stories of the Bible are true, you need to provide good reasons for people to believe it.

[believer]

 

If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23

see me as doubting Thomas. I want to see before I believe.

 

My question is would you still give God the glory for healing him if it were a process of learning to walk again? i.e. by physical therapy.

Absolutely. You have my word.

 

His condition can't be fixed with therapy. His spine is broken in two places and and the spinal cord crushed in a third. And his leg muscles are not where they should be after several flap surgeries and skin grafts.

 

I have seen parapalegics walk again, but it was a process.

Good for you. Now I want to see it too.

 

Fist they moved their fingers, then their arms, then their toes, etc. then they got out of the chair an were walking with help, then on their own. The process that I saw was quick, but with you it may no be so quick. If it is not a quick process but your son walks again, will you be grateful to God for healing him? If so, then I will pray for him.

His spine was severed 15 years ago. No doctor can fix it. So it takes a huge miracle. Huge, as in f**ing gigantic.

 

So pray. Like 20,000 other people have done the last 15 years.

 

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief. A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle. And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son. But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

 

 

 

 

Deal with it.

 

There are ONLY, approximately 37 miracles performed by Jesus, recorded in the whole New Testament???

THAT LEAVES MOST PEOPLE IN THE CATAGORY OF 'UNBELIEF'!! HE WAS GOD?????

 

Jesus, even I've performed more than that in my life. I haven't got the walking on water down pat yet....Maybe 10 more pounds....................

 

Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14.

 

It is also true that Jesus did much more than what was reorded in the gospels. See John 21:25.

[mymistake]

He called me an ass first.

 

As I said, hypocrisy.

 

Oh, it's your playground? Okay, fine, I'll play by your rules. It doesn't make you any less hypocritical.

 

Which one of us went to your church, disrupted the Sunday service, complained when your pastor asked us to leave and then demanded your pastor ask all your regular members to leave too or else it was hypocrisy?

 

See the difference?

[stryper]

 

He called me an ass first.

 

As I said, hypocrisy.

 

Oh, it's your playground? Okay, fine, I'll play by your rules. It doesn't make you any less hypocritical.

 

Ah I see. So instead of doing the Christian thing of "turning the other cheek" you did the True Christian thing and went an eye for an eye.

 

Typical.

 

I have a cousin who married a fundy like you. On his facebook page he posted a video for the whole world to see of an insurgent planting an IED getting blown away by helicopter. A few months later he unfriends me because I said shit in one of my status updates. Because using that language was inappropriate. But somehow showing a guy getting murdered was.

 

Double standards exist everywhere.

[stryper]

 

 

It is also true that Jesus did much more than what was reorded in the gospels. See John 21:25.

 

 

Since the first gospels were written down about 50 - 100 years after he supposedly died, and they are very close to many Greek myth stories, they were probably embellished just a bit.

[Margee]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14.

 

Nice god that made the world - you are soooooo brainwashed...... What a shame - you probably are a nice person..................just brainwashed...christianity doesn't look good on you...............

[MagickMonkey]

At this point, I think it's clear we're giving Believer more attention than he deserves. At this point, I think he's just getting his rocks off from being an ass. I suggest we all simply ignore this guy.

[believer]

 

Why won't you accept what the Bible says as evidence? Because the people who wrote it were so convinced of what they were writing, and others rejected threir words? You find the same thing today. The fact that the authors of the Bible were convinced enough to die for their faith is objective evidence. You don't believe that evidence though, because they were constrained to tell the truth under penalty of the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

 

 

Why won't we because the bible says it. The bible is a mythological text that has some basis in history. Just like the Koran, and numerous other religious texts around the world. It is no different from the book of Mormon in that regard. Yet you would say but the bible is different. it isn't.

 

Irish nationalist were convinced enough to die for their faith. So were Nazis, Communist, The Viet Cong, the Minutemen, le Resistance (or is it la ) , Quebecois about speaking French, the South......etc etc etc.

 

going to Church history the Cathars believed and died for their belief. Numerous people declared heretic.

 

The point being many people through out history have died for what they believed was right or correct. That only provides evidence that they believed that way. It has nothing to do evidence of truth.

 

I would say that the internal evidence of the Bible proves it is the word of God. The Quran and the Book of Mormon do not have prophecies within them; the Bible has prophecies that have been fulfilled to a very great extent.

 

I don't rememeber all of the numbers, but there are a bunch of prophecies that are fulfilled by the life of Jesus alone. For only a few of those prophecies to be fulfilled correctly, here are the odds. If you filled the entire state of Texas with quarters three feet deep, and marked one of those quarters, and then told a blind man to find that quarter at random without starting anywhere near the marked quarter, it is the same probability for only a few of these prophecies to hav been fulfilled correctly, as for the blind man to find the marked quarter. It is something like 1 in 10 to the 17th power, 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 or more. In fact, I think it is way more.

 

Then there are other prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus and other events: not one of them has been fulfilled inaccurately, the only ones that have not been fulfilled are the ones that have not yet come to pass.

[Ouroboros]

There is a scripture that says that even Jesus didn't do very many miracles in his own hometown because of their unbelief.

I know about that verse, and I think it's silly. The reason it's silly is because first of all, I was a believer when we had all those prayers, secondly, if it's enough that one person has doubts against 20,000 people with strong faith... it proves that doubt the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain of faith.

 

A principle of faith is that people sometimes limit God by not believing that He can do what He says He can do. What I am saying is that God requires a certain amount of faith before He will produce a miracle for you. I don't make the rules, I just tell you what they are. The proper response to Mark 9:23 is Mark 9:24, "I believe: help thou my unbelief!"

It was a Word of Faith church. What do you think they teach at a Word of Faith church?

 

And a couple of years later, when my doubt started to become a problem for me, I prayed "help thou my unbelief" many times over. Do you know what prayer answer I got? Nothing. I didn't grow in faith from that prayer. Nothing happened. It is because of unbelief that I'm not a believer. (Huh, the words mean the same thing, strange isn't it?)

 

What you should probably do is ask God for a measure of faith apart from Him proving Himself to you through some miracle.

I did for many years.

 

And remember that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I went to many meetings and bought many tapes and CDs. I spent a lot of money hearing God's word. it didn't help. Tried it. Got the T-Shirt. Next suggestion.

 

And know this also, that God in His sovereignty has the right to not heal your son.

Sure. But the deal was that I was going to see a miracle. You claim that I'm not going to see a miracle because it wouldn't make me a believer. And that's a false assumption. I would believe if I saw it.

 

The thing is, I can't believe just because you say so. I need to see this miracle-making God of yours. But I doubt he exists for the simple reason that he never does anything and all you Christians have excuses for it.

 

But if you teach your son about faith in Jesus Christ in such a way as to propagate that faith, he will ultimately be healed when he gets to heaven; he will receive a new gorified body that does not have any flaws.

We did in the past. Didn't work. We all lost our faith. Seven people in total lost to Hell because God is lazy.

 

Deal with it.

You intentionally want to piss me off. I can tell. But I'm not bothered by you. The only problem I have with you is your trollish behavior which will cause trouble on this website. If I had a garden, I would remove poisonous plants. You are toxic to the people here, and I will remove you if you go too far.

[believer]

He called me an ass first.

 

As I said, hypocrisy.

 

Oh, it's your playground? Okay, fine, I'll play by your rules. It doesn't make you any less hypocritical.

 

Which one of us went to your church, disrupted the Sunday service, complained when your pastor asked us to leave and then demanded your pastor ask all your regular members to leave too or else it was hypocrisy?

 

See the difference?

 

It would only be a difference if you came into my church and one of the parishioners cussed you out first.

[Ouroboros]

I would also suggest not looking at the circumstances if they seem to be too overwheming, such as thinking that God could not heal him because of the extensive damage. God has done regenerative miracles before, and he can do so again.

Good. Then let's see it.

 

By saying this I am trying to boost your faith a little so you can receive your miracle. But if you don't have the faith for it, it won't happen.

If I have to believe before I can see evidence for God to help me believe, then it's nothing but snake oil.

 

I demand to see the product before I buy it. I don't buy secret mystery boxes. I was Christian and tried to be faithful, it didn't work. So now the option is reversed. I have to see it before I believe it. Simple as that. If your God can't do it, I won't believe in your God.

 

I feel for your son, and I will pray for him. I don't guaranee that God will say yes, because as long as you are asking for it to take place as a sign that God is real, I don't think He will say yes.

Exactly. God won't say yes because he doesn't exist. And that whole excuse is nothing but a chicken's disclaimer.

 

You must start with the premise that God is real. Haven't you ever looked up into the clear, blue sky? Where does it stop? If it does stop somewhere, what is beyond the stopping point? When I sawe these things, it seemed to me before that infinity was impossible, but I found proof of infinity in the creation.

No. I have to start with the evidence for God. So far the evidence is equal to zero. I don't see God when I look up into the sky. I have studied astronomy enough to know that God isn't there.

 

I don't know how you could have looked at the creation as a young child and not realized the existence of a designer that designed and created everything that you saw, unless you were brainwashed by those evolution videos where they say over and over again, "billions and billions of years ago..." until you believe it.

I did believe as a young child. I became a Christian at the age of 7. I started to pray in tongues at 11 and got baptized at 12. I can still speak in tongues. I've been on mission trips. I walked the streets of downtown cities carrying a Bible and engaging in conversations with random people to convince them about Jesus. I spent money on going to a one year seminar. I tithed (it was automatically drawn from my account). And on, and on, and on...

 

I didn't care if evolution was true or not when I lost my faith. I knew some things about evolution, but I wasn't convinced about it until a few years ago, that is, after I lost my faith. So no, I didn't not lose my faith because of evolution. I even can accept theistic evolution, under one condition, and that conditions is... show me that God exists. Don't use words. Show me. That's the challenge, and that's what you're chicken out from.

[believer]

 

 

It is also true that Jesus did much more than what was reorded in the gospels. See John 21:25.

 

 

Since the first gospels were written down about 50 - 100 years after he supposedly died, and they are very close to many Greek myth stories, they were probably embellished just a bit.

 

 

Who says that's when they were written? A documentary on PBS? Those things are biased: they use scholars who do not believe in the first place and who make asserions not based in fact.

 

In all actuality the gospels were written within a very short timeframe of when Jesus died and rose again. The epistles also.

[Ouroboros]

He called me an ass first.

 

As I said, hypocrisy.

 

Oh, it's your playground? Okay, fine, I'll play by your rules. It doesn't make you any less hypocritical.

 

Which one of us went to your church, disrupted the Sunday service, complained when your pastor asked us to leave and then demanded your pastor ask all your regular members to leave too or else it was hypocrisy?

 

See the difference?

He won't.

 

I tried that argument with other hard-ass Christians in the past. They can't see outside their little fantasy world. They can't see outside the box, and the box is extremely small.

[stryper]

 

 

I would say that the internal evidence of the Bible proves it is the word of God. The Quran and the Book of Mormon do not have prophecies within them; the Bible has prophecies that have been fulfilled to a very great extent.

 

I don't rememeber all of the numbers, but there are a bunch of prophecies that are fulfilled by the life of Jesus alone. For only a few of those prophecies to be fulfilled correctly, here are the odds. If you filled the entire state of Texas with quarters three feet deep, and marked one of those quarters, and then told a blind man to find that quarter at random without starting anywhere near the marked quarter, it is the same probability for only a few of these prophecies to hav been fulfilled correctly, as for the blind man to find the marked quarter. It is something like 1 in 10 to the 17th power, 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 or more. In fact, I think it is way more.

 

Then there are other prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus and other events: not one of them has been fulfilled inaccurately, the only ones that have not been fulfilled are the ones that have not yet come to pass.

 

 

The bible has be translated, re-translated, edited, change, re-ordered, revised, etc literally 1000's of times. Those prophecies were most likely edited after the fact. The fact that the only place these prophecies can be found is IN the bible creates circular logic. You believe in the bible because the bible tell you so.

 

That is a logical fallacy. So the prophecies in the bible are true because they are fulfilled by other books contained in the bible.

 

Illogical.