Losing My Raison D'etre

[Margee]

I'm glad you're still with us Lyall and I'm glad that you are slightly progressing with all your thoughts. I know this must all be very hard for you. Any life chance is very scary and hard. I've been through quite a few, so I really do understand.....whatever time you have left on this earth is not meant to be lived the way you are living. There is a little bit of happiness out there waiting for all of us if we fight for it.

 

I'm still here cheering you on. We really want to help you my friend.

 

This book is available on line and it's free. I read the whole thing in 3 days and it is absolutly fantastic.

It's all about co-dependency. It will teach you how to take your life back. Well worth the read!!

 

Here's the link. good luck my friend!

 

Here's the book itself...get reading Lyall!!

http://michaelwdean....ience-eBook.pdf

[Centauro]

CENTAURO...

 

Thank you for that very informative post..

 

Do you have a personal ex-timony on here ?

 

 

Lyall

 

No, I have not posted a testimony here about my loss of faith because it happened when I was 14 years old, I am 61 now.

 

My wife was well informed of my lack of faith before we married....was not an issue till children came along, and wife was befriended by a rabid fundy...who is now her closest friend. Her core group of friends are all fundies. They all know where I stand spiritually and don't fuck with me. Boundaries aren't just for spouses! Hehe. There were a lot of battles, but the one I am most thankful for winning is the one that kept my children from being born again fundies. She tried to indoctrinate, but I countered with logic and rational thought, and added psychological reasons that drew people to religions that were so dogmatic. The kids have been out of the house for years, and are well adjusted and happy. They are thinkers, and are "creeped out" by their mothers church and dogma. They also know about boundaries!

 

One VERY important thing to remember about codependents is that: THEY RARELY SAY WHAT THEY MEAN, AND MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. There is usually an underlying motive for every statement which has nothing to do with the actual topic of discussion. They want a REACTION, not a dialog. This dynamic was probably the most difficult thing to deal with when I started to learn about codependency.

Once you master the ability to look thru everything wife says, and determine motive, it becomes much more difficult for them to manipulate and get reactions. Almost everything my wife says, even today, I can't and don't take at face value, so I don't get sucked into a confrontation. Many times she would make some outrageous statement and instead of debating or correcting it, I just would say, "hmmmm, you might be right" and just move on with something else. If pressed by her, I would just say I know nothing about the topic and don't really have an opinion. Most times she let it go, if she didn't I would calmly say I have no intention of discussing this and leave the room. It has taken a long time, but she now knows I mean what I say, and rarely presses an issue.

 

Once you learn the dynamics of dealing with this, you avoid their control, but it takes time. You will get there, because you are already ahead of the game...you are here at these forums and the information from the generous people here will prove invaluable. They have been thru exactly what you have been through.

 

Denyoz.....my profile pic is some B movie actor from a scene from a 1950's horror film. "Night of The Living Dead." it really sums up how I feel about fundamentalism. Ha!

[Centauro]

I'm glad you're still with us Lyall and I'm glad that you are slightly progressing with all your thoughts. I know this must all be very hard for you. Any life chance is very scary and hard. I've been through quite a few, so I really do understand.....whatever time you have left on this earth is not meant to be lived the way you are living. There is a little bit of happiness out there waiting for all of us if we fight for it.

 

I'm still here cheering you on. We really want to help you my friend.

 

This book is available on line and it's free. I read the whole thing in 3 days and it is absolutly fantastic.

It's all about co-dependency. It will teach you how to take your life back. Well worth the read!!

 

Here's the link. good luck my friend!

 

 

 

 

Here's the book itself...get reading Lyall!!

http://michaelwdean....ience-eBook.pdf

 

Lyall, this is what I mean about the people here...they are here for you.

 

Margee....kudos for getting that link up. Very helpful!

[Denyoz]

One VERY important thing to remember about codependents is that: THEY RARELY SAY WHAT THEY MEAN, AND MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. There is usually an underlying motive for every statement which has nothing to do with the actual topic of discussion. They want a REACTION, not a dialog.

 

Oh my ex-God! This so much applies to my ex-wife. It's the first time I see it put into words. It can drive you nuts when you don't know it's happening. I kind of figured her out after 5 years, I remember I would think "It's impossible to communicate with her, I don't know how her thought process works, we keep going around in circles." I concluded that she was a liar, but now I know, she wanted a reaction, not a dialog. It makes so much sense. This is precious, thank you Centauro.

 

Margee, thank you for the link to that book, I want to read it.

[Margee]

Oh my ex-God! Margee, thank you for the link to that book, I want to read it.

 

Denyoz ....... the book is fantastic.......a few of us read it. Here's the thread:

 

http://www.ex-christ...man-experience/

 

 

I LOVE how you say, ''Oh my ex -god!! I'm stealing that line.......................

[Akheia]

Centauro, that's an amazing observation about codependents. My Evil Ex did that too--he'd say the craziest, most appalling things, things I knew he didn't really think, things I knew he had to know weren't true, just to get reactions. He called it "pulling people's chains," and thought it was a noble and lofty thing to do. I thought it was just being a pathological liar and manipulator. Now I see he was doing it to get reactions from people. I've known people since then who did that--who'd say really bigoted or intolerant things among people they knew damned well weren't intolerant--and I knew they were just getting reactions and attention, but didn't know why they'd do something that stupid (especially at a tolerant workplace). Now I can see.

 

I love this place. I love you guys. Seriously, you guys all deserve homemade cookies (or fresh baby bell peppers, or whatever else you like as a treat).

[asanerman]

Lyall, Welcome!

 

I'm 64 years young. I come from a sick family. My dad was a "dependable" alcoholic. My mother was an expert enabler and taught her children to be expert enablers--she was afraid of losing everything. And end the end she did, her sanity.

 

After 28 years of living a victim's hell, a fellow struggler and I crossed paths. He, much like the one's who have posted here, pointed out to me a different direction. And it was only because I was "sick and tired of being sick and tired" that I listened and acted with dispatch. I had nothing to lose and everything to gain--dead men walking know that!

 

Maybe you are your friend George! But with one exception, George was working from a different "operating system." You and George crossed paths. George demonstrated for you his understanding of unconditional acceptance and compassion without regard for what he received in return.

 

Because I don't know any better, seems like ole George was just another sign on a muddy road saying, "Chose your rut carefully You'll be in it for ten mile."~Sam Keen Or even a life time, maybe?

 

But you aren't George, or Jesus, or Buddha. Only you can decide what you can accept with grace and vigor and integrity.

 

My reward for doing what I was taught (being the peacekeeper and savior) was burnout!

 

Your friend George was a authentic amateur--from the Latin root "amore," which means "to love" and originally stood for the person who did something for the love of it.

 

I'll go out on this limb a little farther. Maybe George did what he did out of what Rollo May would call "positive intentionality." He did his life for no other reason than that he wanted to and was able to and found his ultimate joy in doing so.

 

That friend that crossed my path 36 years ago knew what he was talking about. He was an authentic amateur in the original sense and urged me to change course.

 

I decided 36 years ago ("costing not less than everything") to stop, look and listen--that is, to survey all the options, freely choosing among them, proceeding to act with restrained and reasoned dispatch, and then taking delight in what I chose to do.

 

For me that is what it means to be an "amateur."-- doing my life for nothing else but for the love of it, "costing not less than everything~ T.S. Eliot

 

That sort of living never "burns-out!"

 

Find yourself a seasoned therapists that will teach you to become your own guide. When you're ready, things will start happening, fast.

[midniterider]

Either man-up, or don't.

 

man up = lose everything I have worked hard for... like the house etc

 

This man is getting too old for a new mortgage

 

Years ago I got fed up and left the (ex)wife. Took some clothes with me and a small tv. Moved into a tiny apartment until I could afford a bigger place. Glad I did. I put up with 10 years of her insanity, co-dependency, victim mentality, having a cow whenever I wanted to go someplace (it was ok if SHE went somewhere by herself) and not spending every waking moment doting on her. She kept the house and everything in it (which was good for her since she was a hoarder...Enjoy your 'stuff'). Leaving her was well worth the upheaval of my life. I was done being her mind prisoner. I cried about my decision for a few months but the logical part of me knew it was the right decision and I refused to let her talk me into getting back together.

 

I met another woman since then and remarried. We are very compatible and dont try to control the other or mess with each others' heads.

[midniterider]

Thanks Deva,

 

Could be you are right,

 

Maybe its time to throw a spanner in the can of worms and watch the sh!t hit the apple cart while sitting on the hornet's nest.

 

Bam bam bam! Attack of the multi-metaphor! :-)

[Centauro]

Denyoz and Akheia....thanks for the kind words.

 

I wish I could take credit for figuring out the dynamics with regard to codependents. It was reading Beattie's book and many others that gave me the tools to see the light. Reading about alcoholics and children of alcoholics really opened my eyes. Anger toward my wife turned to sympathy, and that saved our marriage. But that didn't mean I was going to keep the status quo. No more dancing around her moods and manipulation. If she was pissed and not talking to me, I would do a road trip on my motorcycle...."see ya in three days, honey, seems like you need some quiet time.". Or I would immerse myself in good books or project.

We are not responsible for other peoples moods or reactions. She tried to say "I made her angry or sad...etc." I responded with fundy terms she spat at me for YEARS. "No dear, I am not....we have free will." it really pissed her off, but she knew I was right.

 

Codependents PROJECT all responsibilities on other people, situations, and in the case of rabid fundamentalists, on a deity that controls

everything. It always amazed me that these same people who chronically claim they have no control over their lives, "god is in control", were/are the most controlling people I have ever SEEN!

 

Most have no self esteem, and crumble at any kind of criticism or correction. They dread making a decision, because if they are wrong it reinforces their own self loathing as they see themselves as less than adequate. And how convenient to have someone else decide what to do, where to go, etc. "Can't blame me, I didn't want to come here in the first place. It's Centauro's fault" You get the picture.

 

I live this every day, my wife can't make a decision. She knows what she wants, and I know her so well I can usually figure it out. That doesn't mean I cowtow to her every whim, it means that if I think she wants to eat Italian, and I really don't have a preference, I suggest Italian. If the meal is bad I can deal with that. It is much easier to deal with that than an argument about where to eat.

 

It took me a few years and volumes of reading to get to this point. Thank Jebus for the Internet, so much good information and clinical work on codependents is available at your finger tips.

[lyall]

Thank you FICINO, CENTAURO, MARGEE, DENYOZ, AKHEIA, ASANERMAN MIDNITERIDER...

 

for all your support and advice... and for cheering me on.

 

I don't know what I would do without you all-and the previous posters-(probably wouldn't do anything constructive!)

 

So right now I am arming up with knowledge and information then I shall look for the courage ( the man-up bit ! )

 

Kindest regards - Lyall

[lyall]

First part says.."THIS WORK IS DEDICATED TO ANYONE WHO EVER FELT CONTROLLED AND INCORRECTLY BELIEVED THERE WAS NO WAY OUT"

 

 

 

 

That's meeeeeeeeeeeeee..................!!!!!!!!!

[Centauro]

Lyall said:

 

I want my own life back but I am not sure there is much left of it to go embarking on a magical journey of self-discovery.

 

 

That is up to you Lyall. Personally, I would rather discover my real self, even if it only lasted one day.

And I believe most hard core fundies are envious of people who are not burdened with the dogma and living within the system.

I also believe the more some fundy protests about worldly things, the more doubt they have a out their faith. JMHO.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum! (don't let the bastards grind you down)

[Akheia]

I've picked up and started over myself. After a bad, controlling relationship I decided that being poor and alone was far preferable to being with someone who made decent money but made my life hell with his insecurity and jealousy, so I left his country to return to the States. I moved to a town I'd never seen with only the contents of a bag and backpack to my name. I ended up staying in an attic loft with some friends till I could afford a shitbox apartment of my own. I ate cheap baloney sandwiches and other such "poor people food" for months while I slowly accumulated life's little essentials (silverware, plates, alarm clock, etc) till I could start to afford real food. I didn't own a stick of furniture beyond what the aforementioned shitbox came with or what I could scavenge from yard sales or just from the roadside (remember that Jeff Foxworthy routine where he jokes that "if that sofa's still there after midnight, it's comin' home with me!" -- that was me); I slept on an air mattress till my parents brought my teenaged-self's bed over. By the time I left there, that shitbox was actually pretty nice to live in

 

And you know what? I remember that year or so as one of the most liberating, free periods of my life. To this day I actually like baloney sandwiches because they remind me of that heady time of self-discovery and victory. And I know that no matter what, I can jump practically anywhere and land on my feet.

 

Lyall, I hear you when you worry that you're a bit old to start over. That's a perfectly valid fear; nobody likes to think that they spent money or time that's "wasted." Might it help to look at it this way?: If you DO start over, then in five years you'll be what, 50 and starting over? Sure, that's not awesome, but if you DON'T, in five years you'll still be 50--and you'll have misery to show for it, and you STILL might end up having to start over anyway. If you know it's something you have to do, you might as well get moving on it.

 

Many, many warm wishes

[Centauro]

Well said Akheia! Great story.

 

Lyall, that feeling of liberation that Akheia expressed is definitely within reach! It is a slow process, and I am confident you can get there.

If I have read it once, I have read it a THOUSAND TIMES, stories of deconversion and breaking away from oppressing dogma that produced such a feeling of freedom that overwhelmed them with joy.

 

And although I have not had the burden of deconverting after years of belief, the freedom/ liberation of shrugging off the yoke of manipulation and control from loved ones was euphoric to say the least. And I believe this is at the core of fundamentalism, or ANY ADDICTIVE BEHAVIOR. Losing fear of the unknown is difficult, once the courage to head into the unknown is obtained, the results will be extraordinary. You will never look back, and the future will look bright. I have seen this over and over again. Don't rob yourself of this opportunity. It is time to start taking care of yourself for a change. I know you can do this.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I appreciate your stories, Centauro and Akheia, and Lyall, I appreciate yours as it's entering a new phase. Did you say you are 64 (memories of the Beatles song)? You could have another solid 20 years...! Keep on truckin' (do they say that in the UK? - maybe they don't even in the States anymore!).

[asanerman]

First part says.."THIS WORK IS DEDICATED TO ANYONE WHO EVER FELT CONTROLLED AND INCORRECTLY BELIEVED THERE WAS NO WAY OUT"

 

That's meeeeeeeeeeeeee..................!!!!!!!!!

 

It may be when we no longer know what to do,

we have come to our real work,

and that when we no longer know which way to go,

we have begun our real journey.

~Wendell Berry

[Denyoz]

I ended up staying in an attic loft with some friends till I could afford a shitbox apartment of my own. I ate cheap baloney sandwiches and other such "poor people food" for months...

 

And you know what? I remember that year or so as one of the most liberating, free periods of my life.

 

Me too, Akheia! When I left my ex, I moved into a rooming house, I had a small room in the attic and had to share the kitchen and bathroom with four strangers. In that room I only had one small bed, table and lamp and a mini refrigerator. I ate bread, raw vegetables, apples and peanuts for months. I had to continue paying for the mortgage and all the bills because everything was in my name. I had no money left and two small children to worry about. But I loved my poor little room and the time spent there was one of the happiest in my life.

[Centauro]

First part says.."THIS WORK IS DEDICATED TO ANYONE WHO EVER FELT CONTROLLED AND INCORRECTLY BELIEVED THERE WAS NO WAY OUT"

 

That's meeeeeeeeeeeeee..................!!!!!!!!!

 

It may be when we no longer know what to do,

we have come to our real work,

and that when we no longer know which way to go,

we have begun our real journey.

~Wendell Berry

 

 

EXCELLENT QUOTE!!!

[lyall]

Thank you for your continuing encouragement folks,

 

My real age is something I have been trying to keep from fundie "spies" that may lurk on here but anyways I am fed up with that and it seems I am making some of you take guesses which is perhaps unfair of me so I will confess to being in my late fifties.

 

By the way, Denyoz, I know what its like to exist on meagre rations - i used to eat raw food etc to save money and one day, in my early twenties, i remember I ran out of food but I was happy that I could still make a cup of tea but then I ran out of tea so I said "no need to panic - I will just be happy with plain boiled water". Next thing I knew the freakin' electric ran out and I was left to drink freezing cold water in the dark - and it was January!

 

"Lyall"

[Akheia]

Wow. At least you had water to drink...?

 

@Denyoz: TOTALLY! People are so scared of the unfamiliar road. Once you've been down it, you don't fear it any more. You know what's down there, and it's not scary.

[lyall]

Serenity vampires...

 

 

...bloody hell !

 

 

That's got to be just about every christian with size nine hangups - its got to be me also - I put my hands up - I am guilty - but since becoming ex-c I have started to weed out those things in my character that were depending on a good word from the "boss".

 

I am now beginning to see it so much more in the people around me who are mostly christians. DW is a major source of unrest but in actual fact she herself suffers from countless vampires most of which she cannot perceive.

 

It pisses me off greatly that the phone is in constant use and when it rings I never answer it because it is never for me. Many of the conversations that DW has with these contacts go round and round in circles. The next time the same person calls it is the same problem - ever unresolved. Then there are the visitors. I sit in another room and I can hear the warrior-prayer being launched. With many of those visitors it is the same stuff being fought for over and over again, very often in the same drone.

 

This has an effect on DW herself and for someone who is permanently ill it makes her exhausted and basically non-functioning and pretty goddam useless as company.

 

Man I sound harsh but it is so true - I am totally starved of intellectual companionship - no wonder I spend so much time on the pooter... which, incidentally, is something DW grabs onto as the reason my faith is "sometimes lukewarm" according to her perception.

 

I don't play games on this thing - too bloody old for that - I am here educating myself - sorting out fact from fantasy for myself...

and occasionally chatting to someone on the other side of the world with more than one free-thinking brain-cell.

 

Love u all - Lyall

[Centauro]

Lyall....you are not harsh, you are just seeing things as they are. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Renew old hobbies, take a walk, go to the pub..whatever when the prayer warriors arrive...or hell, do it anyway!!

I can relate on several fronts. Tomorrow my DW is having her weekly bible study at our home, which is the usual gathering place.

I am semi retired and usually home. Wife wants me out, but I don't oblidge usually unless it fits into my schedule. I go about my regular business...makes them feel uncomfortable, who cares. Sometimes I go to the basement and work with the usual inappropriate music (Jethro Tull, hehe) loud enough for them to hear. She has 3 bible studies a week, 2 outside the home. I love it..more free time for ME.

 

I do empathize about having intelligent conversation, really I do. I developed other outside contacts, both online and locally and they fill the void. It will come, be patient my friend. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER...GIVE UP!

[lyall]

Hi Folks,

 

I am doing a lot of reading at the moment.

 

I am still reading Michael Dean's online book to where I was kindly directed by Margee.

 

At home I see DW behaving as usual but my perception sees that behaviouir as increasingly banal.

 

I am still doing all the church stuff - I feel like a fraud. Ummm ... well... I AM a fraud... until i come clean... but then... they are all believing in a fraud.... AND spreading it around.... so who's the baddie ?

 

Kindest regards, Lyall

[lyall]

Hi Guys,

 

I am still here, still reading, still wondering.

 

 

I strongly feel the need to show the garlic to one serenity vampire in particular but we all know its not going to happen.

 

It sits in me like a coiled spring...

 

Sometimes I feel I could throw up just because of the tension within me.

 

Michael Dean says it has to get worse before it gets better... but i am not sure I have even started out on the getting worse bit yet.

 

I did a terrible thing to myself and to someone else - I got married to someone because I shared a common interest with them and nothing else much seemed to matter in the whole world. Now we do not share that same interest and if we had not done so at the time I would not have married them.

 

I suppose we now have common responsibilities. That will take some unraveling - if I ever get started on it... but I cannot be me until it is all over.

 

I would like to be me.

 

I really would like to have a shot at being me....

 

....before age takes over and I forget who the fvcI< I am supposed to be anyway.

 

 

Ever yours - Lyall