Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

I don't mean you harm BAA, let's just agree to disagree please.

 

 

 

 

...

 

Please do not trust her and please avoid all contact with her.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

You still fussin'? Despite all the fuss I still love ya!

 

 

You love me?

 

...

 

 

I told you  already that I have my reasons for not engaging you in many conversations. I see you still have certain issues. I wanted/want to let you know that even though we don't see eye to eye I still acknowledge you as a person. I also have no intention of going back and forth arguing. Please respect that, I am not trying to strongarm you into complying with my wishes, i am simply requesting it.

How very interesting! 

The subject of your infantile behavior comes up and in a flash you get all serious and adult with me.  You drop the mockery and try to negotiate. So it looks like you can be an adult if you want to, it's just that 99% of the time, you don't want to.  How very loving!

 

Anyway, to business...

 

You're forcing me into the position of having to accept your claim (that you love me), without providing any behavioral evidence that you do, Thumbelina.  No problem!  I don't accept that you do love me. Your behavior has taught me NOT to take anything on faith from you. 

 

But to demonstrate that I can be flexible about this, here's a counter-proposal for you, Thumbelina.

 

Prove that you love others by changing the way you treat everyone else in this forum.  You don't have to have any dealings with me whatsoever, ok?  So, here's a re-hash of my initial challenge to you.

 

Prove that you love the others in this forum by changing your profile page.  Change your 'Last Active' setting from private, so that they can see when you've been here.  If you've got nothing to hide, this shouldn't be a problem.  If you love them, don't hide secrets from them.

 

Change your profile page by removing the comment, "I'm attracted to bothering atheist types atm" and in future treat everyone else here with respect.  No more scoffing. No more mockery.  No more taunts and teasing. No more immature language.  No more name-calling.  No more infantile silliness.  If you love them, treat them as adults.  Bothering people by provoking and annoying them is not loving - it's selfish.

 

Prove your love by stopping your dodges and evasions and your ignoring of questions about yourself.  Be honest and truthful and open about yourself.  When someone asks which Christian denomination/sect/cult you belong to - answer truthfully.  No more secrets!

 

I confidently predict that you will fail to do these things.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BAA, I love you in an agape sense and not QUITE in a phileo sense (it's possible though and I do somewhat, I told you I liked you as you had made me laugh when I first came here) as I do not know you and you feel some sort of anger or annoyance toward me as you always seem to not like my writing style.That of course is your choice and since you told me that, I try to refrain from answering you in the style you don't like, though I did not always succeed. From a Christian perspective, love fulfils the law (the ten commandments). The last 6 commandments deal with man's relationship to man (generic term). I show love to you in this sense: Commandment #5 You are not my parent so I don't have to honor you as in a parent-child relationship by obeying all of your commands. #6 I did not murder you and I do not hate you, I try to leave you alone as you express great dislike for my message and even the style I write in. #7 I did not commit adultery on you as I am not married to you. #8 I did not steal anything from you. #9 I did not bare false witness against you, I address you based on the evidence of your actions. #10 I do not covet anything you have as I am a Christian and therefore believe that Christ will supply all my needs.

 

You seem to have a misunderstanding about love, love does not entail giving in to the whims and wishes of man. The Christian knows that God sometimes does not give us what we ask, for he sees the big picture. It's like the 8 year old who wanted a baby sister and her parents were unable --or maybe unwilling-- to have any more children and the child just wants a baby in the house so she prays " Dear Jesus, could you please make me pregnant so I can have a baby to love?" The child is sincere but will it be conducive for God to grant her prayer? Well, same way Christians may have to deal with others too. Christians are disciples of Christ and when looking at the bible one sees that when the Pharisees were hounding Jesus in order to trap Him, he did not answer their questions. Jesus even had to rebuke them in some instances. Paul was a disciple and when that demon possessed girl was following him and trying to confuse everybody, Paul rebuked her, did he not? The bible does not teach believers to acquiesce to every man in every instance, it in fact says that the Christian ought to obey God rather than man.

 

Now, you seem to want me to change MY personality and MY feelings or impressions about unbelievers/disbelievers. It so happens I find many to be interesting, if not intriguing and I LIKE engaging them. I happen to find the personalities of some to be quite jocular, some have a sarcastic wit that I seem to like and some actually respond positively to my brand of humor; they can actually bandy words with me. Some HATE it when I write the way I do, one guy-whom I found to be quite intriguing-- asked me why I wrote like that, to which I basically told him 'Man, you're old timish, get with the times, it's common these days to write like that!' It's in articles and in the media e.g. Rollin' With Zack , Bitchin' Kitchen etc. It just so happens we eventually ended up getting along even though we have different beliefs. He accepted that I can CHOOSE to write how I want and I realized he did not like it so I did not write that way to him. I have CHOICES and when I joined this site I never got the impression that it was operating under a dictatorial regime with a collective dictating every single thing non ex Christians do/write. As a matter of fact, Dave seemed pretty cool to me and later I thought some members were more or less tolerant; I did not see them as religionists (as in, 'my way or the highway, no reasoning or discussion necessary!').

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I reserve the right to sometimes mock and scoff at atheistic beliefs and to tease atheists who don't MIND me doing so. Elijah scoffed at the pagans and their flaccid gods. He basically asked them 'Where are your gods, did they go take a piss?!' I tend not to mock the pagans but atheistic beliefs (non beliefs) are fair game as that is the nuttiest one. I reserve the right to disclose or reveal anything about my personal or religious life that I deem fit to disclose or reveal. Also, the Christian is sometimes IMPRESSED to do or not do certain things, so yes, Christians may obey impressions and depend on those to respond or not respond to skeptics. I also did reveal certain things about myself to certain people online and in real life and what they did with the info was to use it against me and like crabs in a barrel they used what I disclosed to compete with me. When that happens my introverted self just retreats into my shell. I must learn to rely on the HS to give me impressions.

 

 

I don't mean you harm BAA, let's just agree to disagree please.

 

 

In Thumbelina's Bible Jesus says, "By their long-winded, self-justifying excuses, you will recognize them."

 

In every other Bible, Jesus says, "By their fruit you will recognize them."

 

BAA.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

[centauri]

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

Christian answers aren't facts, they're opinions.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says anything about Satan committing a sin.

Satan as a reprobate sinner is Christian mythology.

[mymistake]

Satan cannot be forgiven for the same reason that Satan cannot be destroyed and he cannot repent.  A comic book doesn't have a story without a bad guy.

[Evolution_beyond]

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

 

Did God create Satan?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

Christian answers aren't facts, they're opinions.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says anything about Satan committing a sin.

Satan as a reprobate sinner is Christian mythology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There I was every now and then wondering how God's precious chickadee was doing and he doesn't even tell me hello. We haven't spoken since last year darlin' (beloved). Hope you had a happy new year.

 

"Satan as a reprobate sinner is Christian mythology."

 

 

 

That's what he wants you to think.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

 

Did God create Satan?

 

 

 

 

 

No, God did not create an adversary (Satan), He created Lucifer who used his freedom of choice to become Satan.

[Evolution_beyond]

 

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

 

Did God create Satan?

 

 

 

 

 

No, God did not create an adversary (Satan), He created Lucifer who used his freedom of choice to become Satan.

 

Ok.  So when God created Lucifer, did he create him perfect?  Did he create him in his own image?

[Joshpantera]

About Lucifer, FYI:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJCxcez5U0M

[Thumbelina]

Ok. So when God created Lucifer, did he create him perfect? Did he create him in his own image?

 

 

 

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

[Skankboy]

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

Then you believe that Angels/demons have free will?  If so, why create man?

[bornagainathiest]

 

Ok. So when God created Lucifer, did he create him perfect? Did he create him in his own image?

 

 

 

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

 

 

And the Bible texts and only the Bible texts describe the true face of reality.

 

Reality was created just as Genesis describes, but Satan wants to trick you into accepting a 13.7 billion year-old universe.

And Evolution.  And Dinosaurs.  And continental drift.  And anything at all that doesn't agree with the Bible texts.

 

Which is why Thumbelina's computer is powered by Jesus-juice and not electricity.

Which is why microscopic angels whizz around behind the screen, transferring bits and bytes of data on scrolls.

Which is why the mutating cells in Thumbelina's body aren't being suppressed by her immune system but by the power of the Holy Spook.

Which is why every benefit Thumbelina reaps from her safe and comfortable, technology-driven, 21st century life sits in direct conflict with her literal belief in a 6-day creation.

 

There's a word to describe those who preach one thing, but live and practice another.

 

HYPOCRISY!

 

BAA.

[Evolution_beyond]

 

Ok. So when God created Lucifer, did he create him perfect? Did he create him in his own image?

 

 

 

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

 

So where did the evil come from? Or did God create the potential for evil within the thing that was apparently perfect?  (in a sense he did I guess - that potential is called Free Will)

 

Also, if Lucifer was created good and perfect, a child of God - how could he turn away from that and into evil rebellion without also aching and hurting from separation from God?  And if that is so, then there is room for repentance and room for God to forgive Satan.

 

If Lucifer/Satan has free will then he is also capable of regretting and repenting.  If there is even a possibility of that happening then God must be willing to forgive when that repentance occurs.

 

And if that is true then Hell can never be truly eternal because if the Devil can be saved from hell and forgiven and welcomed back into God's arms then so can all the other souls in hell also.

[Evolution_beyond]

Of course I don't really believe any of that stuff.  I do not believe in either the Devil or Hell.

 

But this was part of the reasoning I developed when ridding my mind of this belief in hell (only part of the reasoning - there are plenty of other reasons to not believe in hell)

[Thumbelina]

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

 

Then you believe that Angels/demons have free will?  If so, why create man?

 

 

Hello Mr. Boy. I'll answer this in my next post.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Ok. So when God created Lucifer, did he create him perfect? Did he create him in his own image?

 

 

 

Christian beliefs/bible interpretation say that Lucifer was created perfect. Surely you know the texts.

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, you're actually getting this thread back on topic

 

I'm not really here for posting too much, I have stuff going on but I guess I can pull out my soapbox.

 

 

Evolution_beyond: So where did the evil come from?

 

The bible calls sin the mystery of iniquity. It also said that Satan is the originator of evil. Sin is pointless, there's no excuse for it.

 

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: Or did God create the potential for evil within the thing that was apparently perfect? (in a sense he did I guess - that potential is called Free Will)

 

 

Murphy's law says "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". There was a potential for evil for, as you say, the decision to sin is grounded in a creature's freedom to choose. In other words, God was responsible for creating a free sinless creature but not responsible for their choice to deviate from His rules.

 

 

Evolution_beyond: Also, if Lucifer was created good and perfect, a child of God - how could he turn away from that and into evil rebellion without also aching and hurting from separation from God? And if that is so, then there is room for repentance and room for God to forgive Satan.

 

Have you in your entire life not see someone who went down the slippery path? They don't start off as bad initially but as a person ignores their conscience their heart gets harder and harder. Neuropathways are formed and habits are formed and their characters are established. As a former atheist preacher says "Nobody looks at the drunkard throwing up on the street and asks 'Who gave birth to that?!' " There WAS room for repentance but Satan and his imps went to the point of no return.

Heck, in my life I've seen people do that, I grew up around a lot of irreligious people, many were not interested in religion. Many men liked wine, women and song. They lived their lives for pleasures, they cheated on their wives and caused much pain and heartache and later in life when they are sick with prostate cancer or ... (some died from AIDS) and when the women they cheated with didn't want them no (any) more they then wanted the good/faithful woman to take care of them. However, they still wanted nothing to do with religion. Their plumbing did not work anymore but they continued with the wine and song. They chose death (permanent).

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: If Lucifer/Satan has free will then he is also capable of regretting and repenting.

 

He was at one point but not no (any) more.

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: If there is even a possibility of that happening then God must be willing to forgive when that repentance occurs.

 

At one (many) point(s ) in eternity past I'm sure God was willing to take them back, He is merciful and gracious but some beings are just stubborn goat heads (all they want to do is but, but, but and they don't listen) who would not listen to their conscience; Satan and his imps did that. They committed the unpardonable sin and they will NOT repent. They are the beings who will feel pain for the consequences of their sins (hellfire) but not for their committing the sin itself.

 

 

Evolution_beyond: And if that is true then Hell can never be truly eternal because if the Devil can be saved from hell and forgiven and welcomed back into God's arms then so can all the other souls in hell also.

 

The bible does not say that hell is eternal (eternal burning of unrepentant sinners), that is a myth. Hell also does not exist yet. There are no souls in the place of burning YET. People are in hell as in the grave, that is the first death. Hell is when God will make a full end of sinners and sin and that will be the second death. After that God will comfort the grieving, He will cause all tears to be dry and there will be no more sorrow or pain or death. Death, the enemy, will be destroyed.

[Thumbelina]

Of course I don't really believe any of that stuff.  I do not believe in either the Devil or Hell.

 

But this was part of the reasoning I developed when ridding my mind of this belief in hell (only part of the reasoning - there are plenty of other reasons to not believe in hell)

 

 

I know but that still doesn't mean it ain't so.

[Ravenstar]

I forgave Satan.

 

I did.. when I was a christian and I thought about what jesus asked when he said, 'forgive your enemies'.. my brain went to the 'great enemy' and I forgave him. I did it because that was required of me if I was to accept the gift - I did it because it was the right thing to do if I really believed I was forgiven.

 

I was honest, thorough and deeply sincere when I did that. I asked God to forgive him also, and change his heart.

 

Of course now I know Satan is just the projection of what we don't want to accept about ourselves, and a scapegoat for the desires we can't acknowledge - but when I did that I was dead serious.

[mymistake]

The bible does not say that hell is eternal (eternal burning of unrepentant sinners), that is a myth. Hell also does not exist yet. There are no souls in the place of burning YET. People are in hell as in the grave, that is the first death. Hell is when God will make a full end of sinners and sin and that will be the second death. After that God will comfort the grieving, He will cause all tears to be dry and there will be no more sorrow or pain or death. Death, the enemy, will be destroyed.

 

 

Satan, God, Heven and Hell are all myths.  None of them will ever exist.  Souls in the spiritual sense of the word do not exist.  What you call "God" is actually part of your imagination.  It developed during your life and it will end when you expire.  You have a personal relationship with your imaginarion.  That is why you always know what God is thinking.

[duderonomy]

If Lucifer created (originated) sin and evil, then God is not the only creator in the Universe.

Using free will to choose evil is not an option unless evil already exists.

 

In fact, in Isaiah 45:7 God himself admits to creating evil. Paul said that nothing exists that God did not create. So, if God created evil, it must have been inside of him at least at some point, because there was a time when nothing (not even nothing) existed save God. Evil is, or at least was, inside God.

[centauri]

 

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: So where did the evil come from?

 

The bible calls sin the mystery of iniquity. It also said that Satan is the originator of evil. Sin is pointless, there's no excuse for it.

 

 

 

 

Yes Thumbelina, another year goes by and you're still using  a "Rayskidude" quote as a signature line.

It would be hard to imagine a more hypocritical stance than his.

It accuses people here of doing exactly what he did.

In any case, the Old Testament states that God created evil.

It says absolutely nothing about Satan rebelling, creating evil, or engaging in sinful behavior.

[Ravenstar]

"The bible does not say that hell is eternal (eternal burning of unrepentant sinners), that is a myth. Hell also does not exist yet. There are no souls in the place of burning YET. People are in hell as in the grave, that is the first death. Hell is when God will make a full end of sinners and sin and that will be the second death. After that God will comfort the grieving, He will cause all tears to be dry and there will be no more sorrow or pain or death. Death, the enemy, will be destroyed."

 

What happens to people's souls when they are 'in the grave'? When does hell begin to exist?

[mcdaddy]

Wow. Thumby's back retreading her ancient mythological fable horseshit again.

 

Here's my shocked face.

 

: O

 

Wake the fuck up, girl. It's all bullshit. And I think you know that, even if its only on a subconscious level.

[midniterider]

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

 

I thought God could do whatever he wanted. :-)

[midniterider]

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

Christian answers aren't facts, they're opinions.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says anything about Satan committing a sin.

Satan as a reprobate sinner is Christian mythology.

 

 

Satan is God's employee, right? He's the manager of Hell.