Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Thumbelina]

Hi, Thumb! Glad to have you back. You're just in time for Pagan Pride Day! Drop that cross, pick up a pentacle and join the fun! Let out your inner Crowleyan...or Gardnerian. September 22 is the Fall Equinox and Mabon, celebrating the second harvest!

 

As it is said in the holy scripture, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!"

 

Hey man, what's up? I prefer my own deity (the Creator) over celebrating things that were created by said deity and subsequently corrupted by wayward beings.

[mcdaddy]

Hi, Thumb! Glad to have you back. You're just in time for Pagan Pride Day! Drop that cross, pick up a pentacle and join the fun! Let out your inner Crowleyan...or Gardnerian. September 22 is the Fall Equinox and Mabon, celebrating the second harvest!

 

As it is said in the holy scripture, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!"

 

Hey man, what's up? I prefer my own deity (the Creator) over celebrating things that were created by said deity and subsequently corrupted by wayward beings.

 

Prove a creator exists.

[Thumbelina]

it's oratory that helps one be wise unto salvation.

 

I assert that there is no salvation, Thumbelina. I think that it's all a myth. I believe that you will never see 'heaven,' and that the alleged words of Jesus never actually saved anyone... Including Jesus himself, assuming he ever existed in the first place.

 

What people need to do is to be respectful of others choices but at the same time leaving room for polite disagreement. Both parties need to not call regular disagreement hate speech when it is just disagreement.

Thumbelina, it is not "just disagreement." The very instant you or anyone else stands between someone and their happiness, by labelling their love 'sinful' or preventing them from marrying the love of their life, it is indeed hateful.

 

 

Oooo it's Astreja, you can assert anything you wish but it still does not mean that is how it's gonna be.

 

 

You are right in that no one should force their religious beliefs on others, however "If you have a right to someone else’s approval, then they do not have a right to their own opinions and values." I believe in religious liberty. I believe that non believers should NOT be forced to conform to what believers want but if non believers want a stamp of approval on their beliefs they are taking away the liberty of the religious. Communism promote such thinking. If you say God is communistic then I'd say He made us and the rules but He permitted us to choose and Christianity is NOT a theocracy, therefore they can't force others to believe.

 

You don't even know what sin is.

Yes, I do -- Sin is the crime of hurting the feelings of your imaginary friend, as opposed to bad behaviour (for which we have police departments, law courts and various other protections and remedies).

 

 

It's not about God's ego, sin hurts us.

 

God is not a torturer, people will face the consequences of their choices and therefore actions

 

 

Thumbelina, if your god sees even one person suffering, and has the power to end that suffering but chooses not to, it is an evil being. If your god allows an eternal hell to exist, it is eternally responsible for 100% of the suffering that occurs there. The being with the power automatically holds the responsibility, and you cannot delegate responsibility unless you also delegate the power to act.

 

And no human being who has ever lived has performed an action that would merit eternal punishment.

 

You're entitled to see it that way but us believers see hope amidst suffering and for a beleiever this life is a "," at death and not a "."

 

 

"And no human being who has ever lived has performed an action that would merit eternal punishment." I 100% agree with this.

 

 

Yeah, I know you're an inadvertent Crowleyan.

 

 

 

Not inadvertent at all. If I had to choose between Crowley and your god, I'd choose Crowley.

 

 

God gives you that option.

 

 

 

P.S. Astreja, you seem to have intense dislike of the bible and what you THINK it says. I really don't want to bother you but I don't mind saying hello to you every now and then. If that's what you want, I 'll do like what I do with Par, Florduh, ... and maybe just say hi or tease you a little. If you don't want me to talk to you at all I will do that but I prefer the former way.

[mymistake]

Got to love Christians. If they say false things about you they don't feel the least bit guilty. However if you tell them they are wrong they think you are infringing on their right to free speech.

[Astreja]

P.S. Astreja, you seem to have intense dislike of the bible and what you THINK it says.

 

The Bible is a book of silly mythology based on not-so-silly but abysmal morality. Propagation of the beliefs found in that book has set civilization back by at least a thousand years. I detest virtually all of the book, especially the part where it asserts that humans are filthy rags.

 

...and maybe just say hi or tease you a little.

 

*shrug* Whatever. But I reserve the right to retaliate, possibly by using My mandate as the Goddess of Random Equipment Malfunctions without advance notice. (I subscribe to the "...I did it 20 minutes ago" school of Evil Geniusness.)

[mymistake]

P.S. Astreja, you seem to have intense dislike of the bible and what you THINK it says.

 

The Bible is a book of silly mythology based on not-so-silly but abysmal morality. Propagation of the beliefs found in that book has set civilization back by at least a thousand years. I detest virtually all of the book, especially the part where it asserts that humans are filthy rags.

 

The Bible isn't hard to understand. Modern translations put it easily at the high school reading level. The average teenager can understand it. What is hard to understand it the Christian theology that Christians try to force into the Bible and force into being true. The theology does not make sense. It's fractured and broken in many places. Assuming that it is true messes up the mind. That is why Christians play the game "If you agree then your spiritual eyes are open but if you disagree then you are spiritually blind".

[bornagainathiest]

Thumbelina wrote...

I believe the bible is truth. I do not say you have to believe as I do, you say false things about it. Is it wrong to speak up against nay sayers who are down on the bible because they are not up on it? Where is freedom of speech in that? Where is the do unto others ...?

 

Yes Thumbelina! Yes, you do!

 

You do say that others have to believe it just as you do.

 

Whenever you talk about our spiritual blindness, you are saying that we have to believe the Bible as you do - to see the spiritual truth of it.

 

When you do that you are setting yourself up as The Way and The Truth.

 

None of us can come to a 'true' understanding of the Bible - except thru you.

 

So Yes, we have to believe exactly as you do!

 

BAA

[Ravenstar]

wait a minute... did I miss something?

 

"I believe the bible is truth. I do not say you have to believe as I do, you say false things about it."

 

who's saying false things about the bible?

[mcdaddy]

Thumby thinks when you quote the bible, in context, thats being "false" about it.

[midniterider]

Hi, Thumb! Glad to have you back. You're just in time for Pagan Pride Day! Drop that cross, pick up a pentacle and join the fun! Let out your inner Crowleyan...or Gardnerian. September 22 is the Fall Equinox and Mabon, celebrating the second harvest!

 

As it is said in the holy scripture, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!"

 

Hey man, what's up? I prefer my own deity (the Creator) over celebrating things that were created by said deity and subsequently corrupted by wayward beings.

 

Truly, I would only want you to follow your own path. If someone asks I might say I'm a pagan, but not offer more unless they ask. I wouldn't want to insist that someone else believe what I believe though it may be tempting. One size does not fit all when it comes to religious beliefs.

[mymistake]

Hi, Thumb! Glad to have you back. You're just in time for Pagan Pride Day! Drop that cross, pick up a pentacle and join the fun! Let out your inner Crowleyan...or Gardnerian. September 22 is the Fall Equinox and Mabon, celebrating the second harvest!

 

As it is said in the holy scripture, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!"

 

Hey man, what's up? I prefer my own deity (the Creator) over celebrating things that were created by said deity and subsequently corrupted by wayward beings.

 

Truly, I would only want you to follow your own path. If someone asks I might say I'm a pagan, but not offer more unless they ask. I wouldn't want to insist that someone else believe what I believe though it may be tempting. One size does not fit all when it comes to religious beliefs.

 

When she says that she would prefer her own deity what she really means is that "she would prefer that we all worship her deity". If she was cool with us following our own path then she wouldn't be making a big deal out of it in the first place.

[midniterider]

Thumby thinks when you quote the bible, in context, thats being "false" about it.

 

You obviously don't have an ear to hear... when god gives you an ear to hear then you will realize that biblical words have more than one meaning...words like "is" also mean "isn't"....bible passages can be allegorical or literal depending on how the bullshit holy spirit moves you . When you have an ear to hear , the old testament ceases to exist. When you make up shit have an ear to hear, all things are possible.:-)

[midniterider]

Hi, Thumb! Glad to have you back. You're just in time for Pagan Pride Day! Drop that cross, pick up a pentacle and join the fun! Let out your inner Crowleyan...or Gardnerian. September 22 is the Fall Equinox and Mabon, celebrating the second harvest!

 

As it is said in the holy scripture, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!"

 

Hey man, what's up? I prefer my own deity (the Creator) over celebrating things that were created by said deity and subsequently corrupted by wayward beings.

 

Truly, I would only want you to follow your own path. If someone asks I might say I'm a pagan, but not offer more unless they ask. I wouldn't want to insist that someone else believe what I believe though it may be tempting. One size does not fit all when it comes to religious beliefs.

 

When she says that she would prefer her own deity what she really means is that "she would prefer that we all worship her deity". If she was cool with us following our own path then she wouldn't be making a big deal out of it in the first place.

 

The delusion of christianity is curious. It is fascinating the zeal that xians put into saving our souls. They would have us believe the way they believe even if we are lying to ourselves. It isn't like they like us personally, we're just a soul to save. Might be fun to let a christian think he almost has you convinced...then keep having 'doubts' just to fuck with him...over a period of years... :-)

[centauri]

Aha!!! so you acknowledge that salvation is for all mankind and that Jews were supposed to be a nation that were to show others about the true God?

That's what scripture says and I took the time to quote it.

You wrote the following:

"Their interpretation leaves out non Jews from the picture of salvation"

 

I just showed you that non-Jews are not left out according to Jewish interpretation.

 

Where in our society or any society for that matter, do you see non Messianic Jews trying to share the knowledge of the law and salvation with others.

Judaism is not an aggressive proselytizing religion.

 

There was a family of non Jews who said they went to Jews because they were interested in the law but the Jews turned them away. I am not saying that they are not nice people, what I am saying is that their religion is exclusivist and therefore does not show concern for the salvation of non Jews.

The scripture states that God is the force behind gathering others to the Jewish faith.

 

Isa 56:8

The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

In the expected messianic era, which hasn't happened yet, Gentiles will seek Jews (not Christians!) for knowledge of God.

 

Isa 11:10,12

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

Zech 8:22-23

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

 

Bdp had me doing a bit of reading recently and SOME Jews seemed to have revised the scripture to basically say what many false religious systems are saying, people are saved by being good (according to human standards I.e.).

That somehow absolves them of the responsibility of sharing good tidings, I suppose. Please do NOT misunderstand me, I do not deny other channels of God's grace, what I am saying is that there's an adversary who is an absolute lunatic who wants to destroy us and he tends to use deception to do so.

 

Btw, how would the gentiles know about God if no one shares with them? God tidings should be shared to whomever is willing to listen. Whatta ya think?

If you believe the Bible, then accept what it says about God being the catalyst for bringing believers to him.

 

Zech 8:20-21

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

[Astreja]

Regarding becoming a convert to Judaism, it's My understanding that traditionally someone is turned away 3 times before they're accepted. The way I heard it, it's to prevent people from converting for frivolous reasons. Can anyone confirm, debunk or otherwise clarify this?

[mcdaddy]

Regarding becoming a convert to Judaism, it's My understanding that traditionally someone is turned away 3 times before they're accepted. The way I heard it, it's to prevent people from converting for frivolous reasons. Can anyone confirm, debunk or otherwise clarify this?

 

Sounds like somethin a Jew would do.

[bornagainathiest]

_Thumbelina,

 

_{You seem to under a misappprehension about Centauri.}

 

_{He has no interest what-so-ever in accepting, believing or trusting anything you write about the Bible. When he responds to you, it's not because he's a frightened little chickadee. Nor is it because the holy spook moves him to do so. Nor is it because he's looking for God.}

 

_{No. None of the above.}

_{Instead, here are his reasons for replying to you - in his own words.}

_{--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------}

_{Centauri wrote...}

_{If your answers were even half-baked they might be useful.}

_{The problem is that they're fully baked concoctions straight out of the Christian propaganda oven.}

_{Am I wasting your time?}

_{Then I'm delighted to do so.}

_{Every minute you spend here is one less minute you have to be jamming your rancid theology into the skull of some poor person in an effort to dominate them.}

_{---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------}

Centauri wrote...

I understand. You're here to correct people and show them the error of their ways.

And as far as I'm concerned, you can keep preaching away and we'll plow the same ground over and over and over and over again until hell freezes over.

That's entirely up to you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Centauri wrote...

Years ago, I was a lurker on a forum and I was grateful to those that took the time to confront the never ending Christian sermons.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yep!

Centauri does what he does for the sake of others... the lurkers you are trying to get your claws into.

 

You know this, because he's told you before. All of his quotes come from only this thread. You and he have plowed the same ground over and over, in other threads, for years. Centauri's clearly and plainly spelled it out for you and you keep on rejecting what he says. In fact, as well as teasing and taunting him, you've recently started calling his sanity into question and you've hinted that you know his mind and his heart better than he does.

 

Centauri said:

Am I wasting your time?

Then I'm delighted to do so.

Every minute you spend here is one less minute you have to be jamming your rancid theology into the skull of some poor person in an effort to dominate them.

 

Thumbelina:

Father forgive him ...

 

This is the Bible verse you had in mind, isn't it Thumbelina?

 

Luke 23:34

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

 

So you want God to forgive Centauri, because he doesn't know what he is doing?

And you do? Despite all that Centauri has clearly and repeatedly told you about his motivation for replying to you, you refuse to believe him.

 

Because you believe he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

Because you believe you know his thoughts better than he does.

.

.

.

 

Finally, please note that you don't need my efforts to demonize you. You're doing a perfectly good job of doing that by yourself. Calling someone's sanity into question is just one example of the good job you're doing to demonize yourself. Please keep up the 'good' work!

 

BAA.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hello Thumbelina, the following may derail this thread a little, but I don't think it will very much...

 

Do you believe that there is one God who exists in three Persons? That the Son is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father ("only begotten Son") and that the Holy Spirit is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father and the Son?

 

Do you believe that the Son is one person who now exists in two natures, divine and human? That He is truly God and truly man but one person, not two? That it's correct to say that Mary is the mother of God (since she couldn't be the mother just of the human nature)?

 

Thank you in advance for considering these questions.

[Thumbelina]

Can we get back on topic? ...

 

Hey Pops, grab your cane and walk over to this park bench here so we can chat a little, OK. Now, you Sir are getting older therefore soon you won't be able to run with the secular footmen let alone the horsemen. I don't want you getting trampled so I sometimes give you warnings. I acknowledge that you tried Christianity and no longer care for it but please understand that believers see you guys as a proverbial bunch of lemmings about to go over a cliff. However, the bible advocates that humans have free choice so believers are not to force others to believe (to worship God ), not even God does that so humans should not. I sometimes come on here to well, debate (wish it was discuss but you lions like to roar), Is this not what the lion's den is for? For believers to debate or discuss the bible with ex Christians?

 

My intent was/is not to hurt others. You know I said that a couple of times here already. I tend to be blunt which is why I tend to stick with (debate) the same people on here. I think it's also why I think I tend to like personalities like yours, Pars, bdps ... ( I think I want to add Heretic to the list, I think I kinda like him, he had me cracking up - with his helter skelter- minus his blasphemies). I try to decipher who sees the bible as writing on the wall or kryptonite for humans (I don"t understand why such folk would be in the den anyways as per the den rules) or who just SEEM to not be bothered by the bible at all but is somewhat curious about what the Christian is saying (that would be you and some of your bah humbug buddies and some others) so I put them in the tease category. Remember I said a long time ago that whomever Thumbelina likeths she teaseths? Well there are others around here that I like too but they don't seem to want to be bothered with Christians and I do tend to stay in my comfort zone and stick with the same people around here, plus one or two people have tried to set me up. I told you I have a shy side; so I have a shy side and a blunt side (probably developed from growing up around some godless BSers. I saw lying, cheating, manipulating and did not like it. I saw the pain such behaviors cause). I tend to be attracted to tell-it-like-it-is sorta people who are ethical and not manipulative whether they are Indian, white, black, short, tall, gay, straight, Christian, secular, atheist etc.

So I always knew I liked tell-it-like-it-is people but I'm discovering I also have an affinity for Bah Humbugs and frightened chickadees.

 

I also totally believe the bible is the inspired Word of God and I realize God's Word did/does and will continue to cause controversy (it says so in its pages and it is proving to be true) and some unbelievers actively enter the fray ( bible text back there so click at your own risk). I therefore tend to stick with some folk on here who are at least willing to talk about the bible with me (never mind some think they are Hercules). I believe ALL of you on here are precious, some are friendly, some are tolerant and very,very,very few are quite intolerant and vengeful. I actually found one of the most polite people on the net (imo) on this website. I found one person on here who wrote something and I wanted to give 'em a Christianly kiss on the cheek. I like Par a lot for some reason and I had reserved a lot of Christianly hugs for him but I try not to intrude on him too much. He seems to not want to be bothered.

 

It would seem that I am able to compartmentalize when doing these debates and I guess to some on here it may seem that I don't care about them, I do care but I guess what I sometimes try to do is show that the fears that they have about the bible and Christianity is unwarranted. I have seen folk on here who are anxious, depressed etc. based on erroneous beliefs about God's character. It was/is my intention to show them that they are mistaken about God, I wanted/want that anxiety to go away. I have never been scared of God and as I have learned to study the bible for myself and have learned how to trace the doctrines throughout its pages I see just how much God loves me and everyone else. I am too blunt to deal with the uber sensitive so in my unwillingness to hurt them further I just don't say anything but it is my prayer that they will find peace.

 

*blunt me speaking* I also see people spewing out utter crap about the bible and this makes me mad and I sometimes address it (those are the ones that inspired my sig'; they're like the militant atheists that are all over the net), those are the ones who tend to do the most blabbin'; they function as fowls that want to snatch the word from others. One time I was lurking on a forum and this atheist from Norway was needling this excited new Christian from New Zealand and I got mad and I felt I had to answer him and well, I was too zealous and I whacked him with my bible. I wasn't supposed to do that. Yeah, he did put his tail between his legs and he said something at my behavior and then ignored me but I don't want to whack others (which is WHY I tend to leave Aman and some others alone, I recognize they are passionate about their beliefs and I'm TOO blunt), though I think I fell into that temptation a few times. So on here I stick to the dispassionate or even the more polite AND willing to discuss the bible, debaters or the R2D2-ish/chickadee-ish ones.

 

 

Now, I like you, have liked you since you reminded me of Par and bdp but you are waaaay naughtier (yeah, I'm being blunt again but methinks you can handle it).

I hope you do understand that I see you as heading to perdition and I mean you no harm, I try not to use bible quotes to some of you. I mostly hang out in the den because this is where debates and preaching is permitted. Based on the den being here I reckon Dave is a tolerant man and not bigoted at all. You seem to be tolerant too so I bug/tease you, I reckon you don't mind too much? I have read a lot of discussions on here and I agree with Ray in that many on here do/did not know how to trace doctrines throughout the bible etc. which is why the bible SEEMS contradictory to them. Ray's experience and mine differ in that I see a lot of people on here who ADMIT that they did NOT understand the bible. Par said so straight up! I quoted Ray cuz the darn fowls want to interrupt polite and sassy discussion. Though I recognize that the fowls are in pain and they need healing.

 

So Pops, please know that I'm concerned for you but I also don't believe in force, m'kay?

 

Hey Pops, you didn't get a crick in your back from me keeping you here and talking your head off, did you?

[Thumbelina]

Hello Thumbelina, the following may derail this thread a little, but I don't think it will very much...

 

Do you believe that there is one God who exists in three Persons?

 

Yes Sir! As the hymn says : "Holy, holy, holy! Merciful and mighty,

God in three persons, blessed Trinity." Though I know it is not expressly stated, deductive reasoning based on scripture lets believers know that God is triune. Scripture says God IS love. Can you know or be love if it's you, one and no other person or being to love? Love has to have an object to love, love is SELFLESS. The triune God is selfless.

 

 

 

That the Son is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father ("only begotten Son") and that the Holy Spirit is somehow ontologically dependent on the Father and the Son?

 

Yeah, they are together and it was that sundering of that unity by Jesus becoming sin for us that pained God and caused Jesus (incarnate) to die.

 

 

 

Do you believe that the Son is one person who now exists in two natures, divine and human? That He is truly God and truly man but one person, not two?

 

Yes. Don't try to ask me to explain it, it's a miracle. I can't even wrap my mind around eternity and God always existing. I don't even understand the Holy Spirit too much, like if He's like the lady on Fantastic Four that goes invisible but I do know He helps me understand the Word and when I pray I tell Him " I don't understand you but thank you, thank you, thank you!" He shows me how true the bible is and how good God is and how much God loves us.

 

 

That it's correct to say that Mary is the mother of God (since she couldn't be the mother just of the human nature)?

 

God is self-existing and eternal therefore Mary was the mother of God incarnate. The HS was the daddy Excuse me Ficino, the pervs are gonna want to say something here, I just know it. No pervs, it was a miracle and no monkey business went on like with the mythological Greek Gods.

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for considering these questions.

 

I'm sorry, I can't post on here too much lately (I have stuff going on) and I can't answer too many people (too many of y'all) but if you want to read some more on the trinity here's a link: http://creation.com/...ntering-critics

 

 

We did have a convo' before.

You are one of the more dispassionate, tolerant and polite ones around here, no?

[Antlerman]

I don't want to whack others (which is WHY I tend to leave Aman and some others alone, I recognize they are passionate about their beliefs and I'm TOO blunt), though I think I fell into that temptation a few times. So on here I stick to the dispassionate or even the more polite AND willing to discuss the bible, debaters or the R2D2-ish/chickadee-ish ones.

I actually wish to thank you for showing a little more of the real person behind the bible-debater persona. You of course don't really understand me, but that's okay. I get where you're at. You have to try to fit me into something you understand based on your exposures to people. Trust me, I don't fit them.

 

That said, the one thing I think that would help me to actually engage you in a discussion, which I actually would enjoy, is that you actually do that! What I mean is that what you call "debate" actually is just you repeating your beliefs. You are not engaging in actually listening to what others say, consider their positions, speaking directly to their positions with an understanding, and express how you feel their views aren't as valid as yours, justifying why using reason, rather than merely citing your belief in the name of a god as supporting you. You don't do that. And that is why I believe many people are annoyed with you. We know Bible-bots, and you may think that is speaking the truth, but it's just repeating your beliefs. You're not engaging in discussions.

 

So what say you? Do you wish to discuss?

[mymistake]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

 

Here you go. Probably a bit NSFW

[Antlerman]

I don't even understand the Holy Spirit too much, like if He's like the lady on Fantastic Four that goes invisible

You and most every Christian don't 'get' the Holy Spirit. I find that very strange that Christianity makes this "person" as they call it in their doctrines 1/3 of God (or rather one equal God, but God nonetheless), and they spend all their time praying to and worshiping the Father and the Son, and just scratching their heads about the other God with God, as they put it themselves.

 

What's also interesting to me is how you, and every Christian I know, call the Spirit "He", and not "She". Why is that? Why is it that Christianity, most certainly the Protestants, have no Feminine in the Divine? On a personal note, do you ever, in thinking of God, ever view God as Feminine? Or is it always the Masculine Divine? Why can't the Holy Spirit be the Feminine? I wonder if it has anything to do with the organization of the church being a male-dominated priesthood, you suppose? Do you ever relate to God as Feminine?

 

Your thoughts?

[florduh]

So Pops, please know that I'm concerned for you.....

And I for you. Though it's only an exhibition, people do get hurt in the mud wrestling arena. Take care.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hello Thumbelina, thank you for answering my questions. It helps me understand a little better where you're coming from.

 

Aman, you probably know that "spirit" in Greek is a noun in the neuter "gender." There are two places in the NT where a masculine pronoun, not a neuter one, refers to the Holy Spirit. No place where a feminine pronoun refers directly to the HS. John speaks of Jesus' sending the Parakleitos, which is a masculine noun. So there's a slim precedent in the NT for conceptualizing the Spirit as masculine, but rather a shadowy one. The word for dove is feminine, so the dove-HS imagery is as close as I can think of to an acknowledgement of a female/feminine side of the godhead, but in context, it only speaks of a likeness to a dove, as I remember.