Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Astreja]

God created oratory too. Hitler was a good orator...

Dr. Godwin's in the ER attending to another patient, so I'll just say this: What is the Sermon on the Mount, if not oratory?

It's not verbal abuse to disagree with someone if one is not threatening a person.

Absolutely false. Thumbelina, GLBT people have actually committed suicide because some religious wingnut in their family or church kept playing the "sin" card on them. Words were spoken in an attempt to bully those unfortunate individuals into denying their own sexuality, and the stress and self-loathing led to them taking their own lives.

 

It's a moot point, though -- As soon as you start describing a person in terms of sin, in effect you're saying that your imaginary friend is planning to torture that person. That is indeed verbal abuse.

 

As for your silly assertions about Crowley and the music business, I'll take "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" over the Sinner's Prayer any day of the week.

[Astreja]

Ask the guys in that Men In Black movie. I don't really know where it's at...

We've suspected *that* for some time now, Thumbelina. :-D

 

And much as I'd like to reveal the secret of Orion's Belt to you, I don't see a "spoiler" tag.

[hereticzero]

There is no 'sinner's prayer.' It's another nut-bag doctrine from the cult.

[bornagainathiest]

In Christianity, where does the ultimate authority rest?

In the person of Jesus or in the pages of the Bible?

 

Jesus and His word are one. By OBEYING His Word one shows they RESPECT His name, Him personally. Calling His name and having a pretend relationship with Him ain't gonna cut it. If someone says Jesus,Jesus (Lord, Lord) and do not obey His Word (Jesus said a LOT and it is written in the bible) they WILL be lost.

 

Jesus and His word are only one if you are obedient to both. Otherwise, His word just stays as words on a page and means nothing.

 

You are NOT obeying Jesus, Thumbelina!

That's because there's a Thumbelina-shaped blind spot in your vision.

You should try removing that blind spot before trying to remove the motes you see in other people's eyes.

 

Like you, the Pharisees thought they were obeying and respecting God by focusing on scripture. Like you, the words of scripture meant everything to them and like you they failed to see that the words mean nothing unless you act upon them and change your life, as God commands. That's the blind spot. Do you see it now?

 

You read scripture, but fail to act upon it. (See James 1: 22-25)

The required action isn't to carry on reading. (That's the blind spot at work, again.)

Reading the Bible is not the be all and end all of a Christian's life - it's simply the starting point that motivates Christians to action... life-changing action. You think you have faith and respect and obedience towards God, but true faith and true respect and true obedience comes from putting God's commands into action in your life. (See James 2: 14-26)

 

Years and years of just reading the Bible is not showing obedience to Jesus, unless you use it to change your life. If reading scripture were true obedience, then why does Christ ask his followers to change their lives and produce good spiritual fruit? Indeed, why was He so critical of the Pharisees when they were doing just what you do - obsessing over scripture and not putting it into practice by showing love, kindness and compassion to the weak and the homeless? Good fruit requires action and sacrifice, not decades on fruitless study. Are you deaf as well as blind to Jesus' commands?

 

Years and years spent gaining 'deep' knowledge about 'spiritual' things is not having a real relationship with Jesus. If it were, then Christians can have a real relationship with Jesus by following your example and keeping their noses in the Bible, can they? They don't have to produce good spiritual fruit by changing their lives one little bit?

 

I'll write that again... for effect.

Producing good spiritual fruit means putting down the Bible and switching of the computer and acting on what Jesus commands - feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and giving to the poor. That's true obedience. Doing that produces a rich harvest of good spiritual fruit. Endlessly poring over scripture doesn't. You seem to be blind to the trap you're in, Thumbelina, so now's the time to stop accusing others of blindness and deal with your own blind spot. Stop reading and re-reading the Bible and do what Jesus commands. Change your life - not by yoking yourself to (any part of) Mosaic Law as the Pharisees did, but by feeding the hungry, caring for the homeless and nursing the sick. Live as Jesus did, not as the Pharisses did.

 

If you don't, then no matter how much you cry, "Lord, Lord" (as the Pharisees did) and no matter how much you devote your life to scripture (as the Pharisees did) you will be lost... just as the Pharisees were.

 

So, how do we know that you are blind and disobedient?

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

 

Because your posts don't display good spiritual fruit.

 

Instead, we see a harvest of bad fruit - mockery, teasing, disrespect and intolerance. Your 'deep' knowledge of 'spiritual' things hasn't produced a rich harvest of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. No. Instead we see cunning and secrecy and duplicity. You write that you love us, but your words don't match your actions.

 

 

Who do you resemble then? Jesus or the Pharisees?

 

Who's lives were just like yours? Jesus' or the Pharisees?

 

Who's example do you follow? Jesus or the Pharisees?

 

 

 

BAA.

[Skankboy]

I would go so far as to say no christians follow Jesus' religion, they follow the religion about Jesus started by Paul... Not one book in the Bible written by Jesus, or by any of his contemporaries if current biblical scholarship is correct. So they are following a book that was primarily written by people WHO NEVER MET JESUS IN PERSON. Even if you allow the four gospels, the majority of the rest of it was written by Paul... so who's religion are they actually following?

[Astreja]

...We see a harvest of bad fruit - mockery, teasing, disrespect and intolerance. Your 'deep' knowledge of 'spiritual' things hasn't produced a rich harvest of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. No. Instead we see cunning and secrecy and duplicity. You write that you love us, but your words don't match your actions.

Precisely. Thumbelina wants to clone us in her image, and that image is not something any thinking, feeling human should aspire to.

[bornagainathiest]

...We see a harvest of bad fruit - mockery, teasing, disrespect and intolerance. Your 'deep' knowledge of 'spiritual' things hasn't produced a rich harvest of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. No. Instead we see cunning and secrecy and duplicity. You write that you love us, but your words don't match your actions.

Precisely. Thumbelina wants to clone us in her image, and that image is not something any thinking, feeling human should aspire to.

 

No!.. No!.. No!.. Astreja.

 

Don't you understand?

When Jesus said, 'You will know them by their fruits' the 'You' refers specifically and only to True Christians like Thumbelina.

We as spiritually-blind unbelievers aren't included - so we can't tell good spiritual fruit from bad spiritual fruit.

Capiche?

 

Therefore, because we are blind, we have to blindly accept everything she says without question, without any means of testing it and without any evidence to support it. The Bible explains itself, right? So who needs extra-Biblical evidence to authenticate any claims the Bible makes? Only those who can see the spiritual truth of the Bible clearly, can tell the good spiritual fruit from bad. The only person on this site who isn't spiritually blind is Thumbelina, see?

 

That's why we've got to trust only her and not listen to anything anyone else says.

 

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

...We see a harvest of bad fruit - mockery, teasing, disrespect and intolerance. Your 'deep' knowledge of 'spiritual' things hasn't produced a rich harvest of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. No. Instead we see cunning and secrecy and duplicity. You write that you love us, but your words don't match your actions.

Precisely. Thumbelina wants to clone us in her image, and that image is not something any thinking, feeling human should aspire to.

 

Astreja,

 

I can't claim to know what Thumbelina's motivation is.

Maybe you're right and she wants power over us by forcing us to become like her? Maybe the Antlerman is right and she's trapped by fear, using her beliefs as a wall to shield herself from whatever it is that scares her so much? Whatever drives her, the outcome in this forum (her behavior) is simply NOT Christ-like.

 

After all, isn't Jesus the one person she should aspire to be like and to behave like?

 

Ok, we do see Jesus rebuking, admonishing and correcting others, but where-oh-where do we read about him taunting, teasing and name-calling the very sinners he came to save? As far as I can see Jesus disciplined his followers for their own good and he also rebuked the Pharisees and the High Priests for their pride, arrogance and lack of compassion. Nowhere in the Gospels do I see him being sly and spiteful to the weak and the needy.

 

Ironically enough, she's the one who keeps telling us that in scripture, it's Satan that does the taunting, the teasing and the name-calling. Yet somehow, she just can't see that when she taunts, teases and name-calls us, she's behaving just like Satan. * (See below) Yep! There's that Thumbelina-shaped blind spot at work again! Everyone else is blind and sinful, but she sees clearly and there's nothing at all in her that needs to change.

 

Well, she may know her scripture inside out and back-to-front, but then, so did the Pharisees and so did Saul of Tarsus - the Pharisee of Pharisees! Such deep knowledge of words on a page didn't bring them any closer to God. Saul had to be blinded, broken and humbled by Jesus so that he could be changed and want to change. Only then did he realize that the words of scripture mean nothing unless you put them into action and aspire to be like, think like, act like and speak like Jesus Christ.

 

So, what do you reckon she'll do next, Astreja?

My money's on the 'carry-on-as-before' tactic. I'd say the personal cost of her actually addressing the issues in her life are too high. She's just won't go there. So, after a suitable interval, we'll just get the same old Thumbelina back again.

 

You agree?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

* Note:

(Yes, I know that you think it's just a teensy-weensy widdle bit of fun, Thumbelina. And Yes, I know you think there's no harm in it. But consider. Is it Christ-like to act in this way? Would Jesus belittle those he came to heal? And if such talk hurts others what must thinking these harmful thoughts be doing to your heart and your mind? Finally, if Jesus rebuked the Pharisees so harshly for their lack of compassion, how pleased do you think he is with the 'fun' you have at other people's expense?)

 

 

p.s.

 

Here's something else for you to consider, Thumbelina. I've re-phrased it especially for your attention.

 

1 Corinthians 13

 

New International Version (NIV)

 

13 If Thumbelina speaks in the tonguesof men or of angels, but does not have love, she is only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

² If Thumbelina has the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if she has a faith that can move mountains, but does not have love, she is nothing.

³ If Thumbelina gives all she possesses to the poor and gives over her body to hardship that she may boast, but does not have love, she gains nothing.

⁴ Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

⁵it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

⁶ Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

⁷ It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

⁸ Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

⁹ For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

¹⁰ but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

¹¹ When Thumbelina was a child, she talked like a child, she thought like a child, she reasoned like a child. When she becomes mature, she will put the ways of childhood behind her.

¹² For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now she knows in part; then she shall know fully, even as she is fully known.

¹³ And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

 

But the greatest of these is LOVE!

[mcdaddy]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

[Kaiser01]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

 

I didnt know you were scotish McDaddy.

[mcdaddy]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

 

I didnt know you were scotish McDaddy.

 

Well, sorta. I suppose the 'Mc' in my last name says i have some Scot blood in me.

 

But i also love to sodomize sheep. Its quite arounsing

[bornagainathiest]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

 

Yeah (sighs)

 

...sorry 'bout that.

 

I forgot that the Thumb's special and spiritual and above anything we poor, blind, mistaken pond-scum dwellers can aspire to.

 

So, any time someone disagrees with her about anything at all... maybe I should just step in and remind those transgressors that it's not for them to question, test or doubt what she writes?

 

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

 

I didnt know you were scotish McDaddy.

 

Well, sorta. I suppose the 'Mc' in my last name says i have some Scot blood in me.

 

But i also love to sodomize sheep. Its quite arounsing

 

So you know about the farmer's boots trick, then McD?

 

BAA

[mcdaddy]

BAA,

 

Jesus is not your taskmaster/slaveowner. IOW, you're not his little bitch. SO, you cannot criticize Thumby on anything whatsoever in life in its totality.

 

Capiche?

 

Yeah (sighs)

 

...sorry 'bout that.

 

I forgot that the Thumb's special and spiritual and above anything we poor, blind, mistaken pond-scum dwellers can aspire to.

 

So, any time someone disagrees with her about anything at all... maybe I should just step in and remind those transgressors that it's not for them to question, test or doubt what she writes?

 

 

BAA.

 

Now you're catching on!!!!! :) :)

 

NEVER QUESTION GAWDS VIOLENT MISOGYNISTIC HOMOPHOBIC ARROGANT CRUEL UNEDUCATED HOLY INSPIRED INERRANT INFALLIBLE WORD.

[florduh]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

[Antlerman]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

I wonder how she fares over at an actual Christian website? Do you suppose she comes here because we're the only ones who respond to her? My bet is they ban her the minute she starts sending all of them to hell too. Goes to show us former Christians are more tolerant then her own religious family is....

[bornagainathiest]

Here's a handy tip to make sheep-sodomizing safer and more satisfying for you McD.

 

Wear a stout pair of knee-high boots and slot the animal's hind legs down into them. This holds your love interest's hind quarters snugly against your loins and stops him/her (?) from escaping.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

This is NOT the voice of experience talking!

[mcdaddy]

Here's a handy tip to make sheep-sodomizing safer and more satisfying for you McD.

 

Wear a stout pair of knee-high boots and slot the animal's hind legs down into them. This holds your love interest's hind quarters snugly against your loins and stops him/her (?) from escaping.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

This is NOT the voice of experience talking!

 

I fixed it for you!

 

[Astreja]

No!.. No!.. No!.. Astreja... Only those who can see the spiritual truth of the Bible clearly, can tell the good spiritual fruit from bad. The only person on this site who isn't spiritually blind is Thumbelina, see? That's why we've got to trust only her and not listen to anything anyone else says.

 

Um...

So, what do you reckon she'll do next, Astreja?

 

My money's on the 'carry-on-as-before' tactic. I'd say the personal cost of her actually addressing the issues in her life are too high. She's just won't go there. So, after a suitable interval, we'll just get the same old Thumbelina back again.

 

Almost certainly, BAA.

 

I have noticed that she very briefly shuts down whenever I call her out on quality-of-life issues -- In essence, playing the "Why the fuck would any of us want to end up like you, you boring person?" card. I think we should start asking pointed questions about what she does all the livelong day, or just start chatting among ourselves about the good stuff we've got going on in our lives.

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

 

Meh. If her mud wrestling is as erratic as her apologetics, I'd give her about 30 seconds of scratching and spitting and splashing mud around before her opponent put her in a submission hold and made her tap out. (Mind you, she'd probably claim that it was just a warm-up for the *real* match, or that her opponent didn't understand mud wrestling and only a True Mud Wrestler™ is allowed to win.)

[centauri]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

I wonder how she fares over at an actual Christian website? Do you suppose she comes here because we're the only ones who respond to her? My bet is they ban her the minute she starts sending all of them to hell too. Goes to show us former Christians are more tolerant then her own religious family is....

I agree, she wouldn't last very long in a Christian forum of a differing denomination.

At a Christian vs Christian site the offender is also likely to be called a tool of the Devil, something that she won't be called here.

I suspect that aspiring Christian preachers see this site as "low hanging fruit", ripe to be picked.

[mymistake]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

I wonder how she fares over at an actual Christian website? Do you suppose she comes here because we're the only ones who respond to her? My bet is they ban her the minute she starts sending all of them to hell too. Goes to show us former Christians are more tolerant then her own religious family is....

I agree, she wouldn't last very long in a Christian forum of a differing denomination.

At a Christian vs Christian site the offender is also likely to be called a tool of the Devil, something that she won't be called here.

I suspect that aspiring Christian preachers see this site as "low hanging fruit", ripe to be picked.

 

All it would take is for her to mentoin that she believes one thing they don't or vice versa. For example her view regarding hell is very rare (fringe) among Christians. Then they would say the same things about her that she says about us.

 

"You are spiritually blind." "You can't understand because you don't have the ears to hear."

 

And so on and so forth.

[florduh]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

I wonder how she fares over at an actual Christian website? Do you suppose she comes here because we're the only ones who respond to her? My bet is they ban her the minute she starts sending all of them to hell too. Goes to show us former Christians are more tolerant then her own religious family is....

Yes, someone who claims Christianity and actually has a dog in the fight wouldn't tolerate her approach for long. As we know, Christians aren't fond of being challenged on their pet doctrines. And don't EVEN tell them of their heresies!

[bornagainathiest]

Can we get back on topic? Thumby's mud wrestling career. I'm sure she's much better at that than she is at explaining and proving her crackpot theology.

I wonder how she fares over at an actual Christian website? Do you suppose she comes here because we're the only ones who respond to her? My bet is they ban her the minute she starts sending all of them to hell too. Goes to show us former Christians are more tolerant then her own religious family is....

I agree, she wouldn't last very long in a Christian forum of a differing denomination.

At a Christian vs Christian site the offender is also likely to be called a tool of the Devil, something that she won't be called here.

I suspect that aspiring Christian preachers see this site as "low hanging fruit", ripe to be picked.

 

Agreed Centauri.

 

Nobody here will call her a tool of the Devil.

 

But I have compared aspects of her behavior to the way she portrays Satan.

That is, as a taunter, a teaser and a name-caller. Thumbelina behaves like Satan, when she should aspire to behave like Jesus. Such behavior totally undermines everything she writes here.

 

To be honest, I have no hope whatsoever that anything I write will change her one iota. Instead I write these things, not for her benefit, but for the benefit of everyone else - so that nobody will be taken in by anything she writes.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

No!.. No!.. No!.. Astreja... Only those who can see the spiritual truth of the Bible clearly, can tell the good spiritual fruit from bad. The only person on this site who isn't spiritually blind is Thumbelina, see? That's why we've got to trust only her and not listen to anything anyone else says.

 

Um...

So, what do you reckon she'll do next, Astreja?

 

My money's on the 'carry-on-as-before' tactic. I'd say the personal cost of her actually addressing the issues in her life are too high. She's just won't go there. So, after a suitable interval, we'll just get the same old Thumbelina back again.

 

Almost certainly, BAA.

 

I have noticed that she very briefly shuts down whenever I call her out on quality-of-life issues -- In essence, playing the "Why the fuck would any of us want to end up like you, you boring person?" card. I think we should start asking pointed questions about what she does all the livelong day, or just start chatting among ourselves about the good stuff we've got going on in our lives.

 

Uh-huh.

 

Yep.

That's the key to dealing with her, Astreja.

Don't argue scripture or theology - that's what she wants. Instead, put the spotlight on the mismatch between her words and her actions. She can talk the Christianese talk, but she can't walk the walk... following in Jesus' footsteps and behaving like him.

 

Words about love mean nothing if not matched by loving actions.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bdp]

Michael Jackson, The Beatles and any group or artist that made it big or will make it big will have to follow Crowley's teachings

 

Absolute and complete bullshit.

 

Yeah, I know you can't see it:

 

 

 

DO NOT patronize me.