Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Realist]

I was just trying to respond here and the stupid batteries from my keyboard died on me and I can't seem to find the replacements. I'm borrowing batteries from other gadgets and they're dying on me too.

 

.... borrowing batteries from other gadgets? Don't steal the vibrator ones Thumb! As a christian you have to have some pleasure remaining in this life!

[Realist]

So WAITING Thumbelina ... please address the Antlerman and Centauri posts ... WAITING!!

 

Oh look, it's Mr ... ! I'll hit ya back later.

 

... don't bother hitting me back ... just answer the posters in this thread YOU are avoiding! That's what I asked!

[mcdaddy]

[Astreja]

I did not abandon this thread, hope to get back to it. I was just trying to respond here and the stupid batteries from my keyboard died on me and I can't seem to find the replacements. I'm borrowing batteries from other gadgets and they're dying on me too.

 

(The Goddess of Random Equipment Malfunctions grins, baring Her teeth in a rather unfriendly manner) Perhaps I should try for Thumbie's fridge next. Or should it be her wheels? Decisions, decisions...

 

(Astreja's Inner Computer Geek ethos clicks in) Thumbelina, save yourself a lot of grief: Toss that hunk o' junk and get yourself a cheap USB keyboard rather than a wireless one.

 

And yes, Thumbelina, if hell does exist I do intend to go there and there is nothing you can do to prevent that.

[Thumbelina]

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

All you have to do is remember what the Gospel of John says.

What you ask for was the prayer made by Jesus himself.

 

John 17:20-21(NIV)

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

The prayer failed, which discredits both Jesus and a multitude of Christian denominations.

 

 

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

You've just had it presented but you reject it, just as you reject so many other scriptures that don't serve your agenda.

Perhaps you're frighted to see the scripture refute your claims.

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

 

This was the prayer of Jesus himself.

That all believers would be as one, just as he was one with the Father.

 

John 17:22-23(NIV)

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one —

I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

Complete unity means same doctrine and understanding.

Complete unity means agreement, just as Jesus was supposed to be in complete unity with the Father.

Obviously the prayer failed, which not even you can deny given the fact that Christianity has hundreds of denominations that cannot agree with each other.

 

However, Jesus' prayer will eventually be answered, there will be a latter rain but there will also be great apostacies just as the bible predicted.

The prayer of Jesus was to be effective in that time period and would apply to those that believed after he had died.

That was the whole purpose of it, to convince unbelievers that Jesus was sent by God.

Christians would display complete unity as verification.

Furthermore, Jesus was supposed to return before all of his associates had died, which means this was all supposed to play out within a one century timeframe.

 

There are no qualifiers in the text stating that the prayer wasn't to be taken seriously until thousands of years had passed.

Promises of "eventual" fulfillment are as empty as the claims about a second coming.

 

Centauri you and your dang tangents. Virtually every Christian who looks at the bible knows that Jesus' prayer was answered at Pentecost (Check out the book of Acts). Man, I addressed you as if you already knew that; I'd forgotten it was you and you look for any opportunity to blaspheme. The church grew exponentially after Pentecost, they were evangelizing the then known world BUT, but you neglect to look at the portions of scripture that says that the unity will not be continually consistent, for grievous wolves will enter, not sparing the flock (see Acts 20:29)

 

 

*sigh* I have TRIED many times to show you how to compare scripture with scripture so you can actually see a gospel but your myopic view would not permit it

That's why I keep telling you that you need spittle and clay for your eyes.

If you apply the spittle then you would receive a vision and you won't perish. You'll see that scripture let's us know that there would have been a delay. You would see that scripture gave time prophecies up until the 19th century. Darlin', I hope you see it, I genuinely like you and this is virtual world so I reckon in the real world you're probably a nicer fella than your virtual self. Even if you're not as nice as I imagine, God still loves you and so do I. I mean, I'm tryin' to show you that you don't need to be a frightened chickadee, cuz fear is torment. I want you to be free and for you to quit cowering behind the chicken coop.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Kaiser01 said:Thumbalina You have a misunderstanding of my first statement, when i said "what the mind defines as true," did not mean some God could not give truth, but that we don't choose what we believe because we do not have free will over what we think, and the fact you think we do means you are either willfully ignorant because it feels better, or you seriously don't understand reality very well. A reality governed by God and one governed by no God is the same when it comes to free will.

 

Thumbelina: There was no misunderstanding, just very strong disagreement.

 

 

It is my belief and experience that we choose to respond to that deep seated yearning that God placed in us to look for something BETTER. I actually saw one person on here that actually acknowledged that humans yearn for a higher power (God). I was thrilled to see such honesty.

 

 

Once a person has even basic faculties they generally start thinking about purpose, about why we are here and where we are going. The human race has basic spirituality. Even atheists are obsessed with talking about the God that "does not exist". We all (people with faculties that are working) have a measure of faith (in this instance I mean belief). People who say no are in denial. So up to a point we do have a choice, a choice to respond to that restlessness we get when yearning for God. I agree with you when you say our beliefs/ thinking TEND to be shaped by our environment *gasp* the bible says so, it even says so in the Decalogue.

There's a leftist definition for free will that's floating about so I try to steer clear of it.

 

 

Dictionary definition for will:

The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.

 

The bible says that the HS entreats us FIRST, God is calling out to us. We then use our wills to decide of we want to respond. There's a point or points in ones life when one hears this call. That's why the bible says if you hear God's voice do not harden your heart. One needs to respond during that/those window/windows of opportunity. Some people don't and won't rerspond.

That is what the word says happens and that has been my and many other people's experience.

There are choices.

 

 

 

Kaiser01 said: You fail to understand what cause and effect from the beginning of the universe really means, we are governed by the rules of cause and effect, what we think, do and say is a reaction to the enviorment around us and the laws affected it,

 

Thumbelina: I agree. I believe God's universe has laws, I believe in cause and effect. However I believe in restoration.

Despite a person's environment the HS is still striving with them and giving them an opportunity to respond. God can take one from the guttermost to the uttermost. I've heard reports of bright tall beings taking audio bibles to somewhat primitive people. I do not naively believe in every report I hear but I do believe in miracles. The bible talks about Philip and the Eunuch, if a person is WILLING God finds a way to reach them. I've heard reports of primitive people knowing about biblical narratives in the bible and when the missionary asked them if they had a bible they asked "What's that?" If ones faith is genuine God eventually helps.

 

 

Kaiser01 said: even the fact i know this is still a product of the predeterministic nature of the universe. How can one choose religion, when his choice is a reaction, YOU CANNOT DEMONSTRATE TO ME IN ANYWAY HOW ONE CAN SERIOUSLY BELIEVE SOMETHING WITHOUT BEING CONVINCED OF IT FIRST.

 

 

Thumbelina: God convinces us FIRST, spiritually I.e. He uses nature to testify of a Creator but because of the curse that testimony is not perfect. God is there but yes, we are intelligent beings made in His image. Therefore there HAS to be an intellectual dimension to belief. This is where scripture comes in and I find it to be the most convincing way of showing God.

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: I cant just believe, i have no ability to do that, and neither does one in the jungles of borneo, neither does anyone, it takes varying degrees of convincing for one to belive.

 

Thumbelina: You never felt that restless yearning for God? I'm pretty sure the people in Borneo feel that tug in their heart strings. Yup, we need some evidence.

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: God knows how much is needed,

 

Thumbelina: He sure does!

 

Kaiser01said: yet he only gives them half,

 

Thumbelina: Nah, the hearts of humans are basically selfish. God knows when the timing is right. Some people actually shoo away the HS.

God gave ALL for us, His son.

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: sure one can search, but even in searching he isn't choosing what he believes, only looking for answers, but it still takes a certain amount of outside influence.

 

Thumbelina:Yes. God provides the answers at the right time. We ought to search for God as for hidden treasure (Matt 13:44).

Satan was in a perfect environment and he acted out. We are going into heaven through tribulation. God does not want to cast His pearls. We WILL learn to have a RADICAL dependence on Him but we MUST be convinced intellectually about His perfect commandments (Psalm 19:7). The commandments are God's loving gifts to us.

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: As for my million dollar analogy, it is no different, you are just avoiding it because you understand the point it brings. Religion is a product of our need for security,

 

Thumbelina: Agree.

 

Kaiser01said: a security need that comes from our need to control the reality around us.

 

Thumbelina: Agree somewhat. We soon realize that we control squat and that's when we realize we ain't God and we NEED Him.

 

 

Kaiser01said: When one lives his life without understanding the world around him, with understanding brings control of it, and that is why religion exist. Religion develops independently as a way to understand the circumstances of our existence. Why do you think people who are desperate go to religion?

 

 

Thumbelina:Yes this is true.

 

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: They seek control.

 

 

Thumbelina: If they were seeking control they'd be Babel tower building atheists.

They seek comfort. Some people are fearful and a mess and they think God is scary and need to be appeased or they avoid Him (Centauri does this.

 

 

 

Kaiser01 said: Religion exist because its our security mechanism, the interesting point here, is that God apparently does nothing to show these people the truth, but instead he gives them nothing but silence and this internal feeling and they burn for it. He gives them a feeling but gives no theology, no ABC's of salvation.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: God made provisions for people. He's not silent, people are not listening. A lot of people don't persist with their yearning though. Salvation is meh to them because they have some temporal creature comforts (see parable of the sower and the seeds)

 

 

Kaiser01said: You act, as though a child in africa who died of starvation at the age of five, went to hell because he didnt "Thirst" or hunger for the spirit. Yet he is five, what does he know of your God? A God who is all present but ominously quiet in their lives... except some kind of internal blip, how cruel, HOW CRUEL IS HE.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Dude, the child is in the grave and not hell. You did say it, cause and effect. People are affected because throughout earth's history most people

did not earnestly seek God and holiness. Selfishness reigns and Satan gets to run rampant (temporarily). He WILL regret it though. Resources should be shared. There are GENERATIONS of children born in places where seeking God is not revered. When believers get into dire straits and even face death, it is temporary. God is their comfort. You as well as many others think that the ultimate goal is to make us happy in this life but no, the ultimate goal is to get us to have eternal life. Not saying happiness is not a bonus but who is happy ALL the time? Sadness and sorrow always comes and the believer that abides in God gets joy and peace.

 

 

Kaiser01said: As for the atheist and solider, rearranged pond scum? You act like one of the childish creationist. You to me thumbalina, seem very smart, your tenacity and ability to answer and respond impresses me, but you oversimplify the beauty of the world.

 

 

Thumbelina: Well pardon me for not waxing poetic

I do recognize beauty and love but why stop here? I can enjoy beauty forever without worrying about calamity and pain. Also this planet may have awesome sights but it still is quite puny.

 

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: Thumbalina, i went through two deconversions, my last was only but a few months ago.

 

 

Thumbelina: That must have been tough and confusing?

 

 

Kaiser01said: I go and see a theologian every Thursday night and contrary to what you think,

 

Thumbelina: Paul studied with the best but did not get IT until he saw the light. He had misunderstandings too. Do you know how to test the theologian to know if his/her views are biased and contrary to scripture?

 

Kaiser01said: i do know the bible. I became a Christian again BECAUSE i objectively looked at the bible, i even tried to hold on to it when i began to realize my position was unsupported both historically and scientifically.

 

Thumbelina: What if you were exposed to false doctrines? If the bible makes sense unless someone prefers fleshly lusts, they will embrace it. I think there are a LOT of attacks against the bible, people grasp at anything to disprove it., like false science and vain philosophies.

 

 

Kaiser01said: Death, does not make me afraid,

 

Thumbelina: Eh, you're probably doing reasonably well why you say that. Even if you aren't, humans learn how to exist in unfavorable conditions. I'd prefer to thrive and look forward to a better world.

 

 

 

Kaiser01said: and the universe itself is the ultimate security blanket, to know you can look up at the stars and say, "im part of that" is security enough.

 

Thumbelina: You sound like one of those New Agey occultists. That is basically what you're doing by what you say. As a child I somehow knew that God was bigger than the beautiful nature around me; bigger (as in greater) than the sun which I used to stare at. You are inadvertently involved in idolatry, many atheists are. I call them unknowing disciples of Crowley or Crowlians. Look, atheists are perfect candidates to be duped, the first time they see something supernatural they'll get their "evidence" (walking by sight) and they'll think it's from God.

 

 

Kaiser01said:When it comes to one who is disabled, we can fix it, we can work at it through action, through work and research,

 

 

Thumbelina: I don't disagree but we are FAR away from eliminating disabilities. Disabled people miss out on a good quality life. An eternal life with no more disabilities should be theirs. There's a fellow believer who plays biblical characters and he was playing a leper or was it a crippled person? Anyway, he said that people call him invalid, in-valid as in not valuable. People in privileged societies talk but people in places like India and Africa are living out the survival of the fittest type of life. Some of those pagan religions they practice, make no room for the disabled, the disabled are discarded.

This world will not be getting better in its sinful state. The strongest will attempt to oppress others either overtly or covertly.

 

Kaiser01said: there may indeed be a heaven,

 

 

Thumbelina: There is.

 

 

Kaiser01said: but we are going to haft to make it on our own.

 

 

Thumbelina: Too dismal to contemplate. Many people don't abide in God, d'you think that's why so many drink and take drugs?

 

 

 

Kaiser01 What is worse, to fill someones existence with lies

 

 

Thumbelina: You see truth as lies and lies as truth. However you haven't seen God's beautiful truth.

 

 

 

Kaiser01 said: and be content, or to work for a solution? I will take the second option. As for the lack of free will, it does not bother me, i am a compatablist. It does not bother me because the universe is part of me and i am part of it, it is me.

 

Thumbelina: Woooo, New Agey.

 

Kaiser01 said: That cause and effect chain is me, we are one in the same, it makes no difference if we choose, or not choose, if we react but not react, it is only a difference of principle.

 

Thumbelina: So you THINK.

[Thumbelina]

Also thumbalina, you said truth was progressive. A progressive absolute truth? GASP! almost looks like that bible truth might just be a product of the human mind.

 

Truth is progressive to non omniscient beings. We see in part. Have you ever tried putting on a light when you were in complete darkness? That thing hurts your eyes. You got to be exposed to light gradually when you're coming from the dark.

[Guest Valk0010]

Also thumbalina, you said truth was progressive. A progressive absolute truth? GASP! almost looks like that bible truth might just be a product of the human mind.

 

Truth is progressive to non omniscient beings. We see in part. Have you ever tried putting on a light when you were in complete darkness? That thing hurts your eyes. You got to be exposed to light gradually when you're coming from the dark.

And you can even define omnisciences how?

[Thumbelina]

.....

Who gave the law of the blood sacrifice to the Jew?

Was Cain a Jew, was Abraham a Jew? Did they sacrifice animals? God gave the sacrificial system to impress upon the minds of people that sin causes death and that though they deserved death, there would be a substitute for them.

It shows you are unfamiliar with the OT prophet Jeremiah who claimed the law of sacrifice was NEVER given to Moses. That pretty much makes your version of what a sacrifice is, totally made up bullshit. God never gave the 'sacrificial system' to anyone to 'impress upon' anyone's mind anything about sin. The sacifice system, as you call it, was totally invented by the Priests.

 

 

The sacrificial system was established as soon as sin occurred and God killed that animal to clothe Adam and Eve. As time progressed it got more elaborate so God could teach His children GREATER salvific lessons.

 

What do you think God claims when he says, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' about half a dozen times in the babble means?

 

It means that the people stupidly idolized the system instead of internalizing what the system prefigured.

 

 

 

The Ten Commandments are traditions taught as commandments, god never gave to Moses.

That means Christians teach tradition as a commandment of God which makes Christianity blasphemy to God for putting words in his mouth he never spoke. You are really going to Hell! Bye, bye.

 

The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger (TWICE). They are comprehensive, they sum up all the principles that are needed for good relationships AND they point out sin.

 

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: You are proving my point that Christians don't read their bibles.

 

 

 

You are proving my point that you don't know the gospel and you are confused just like many others are confused.

 

 

Heretic said: Moses wrote the second set of stone tablets. (Exodus 34:28)

 

 

Moses did not write on the stone tables/tablets. Exodus 34:1 says that God told Moses to carve out the stone tables and to bring them the following morning so that He (God) can REWRITE them. Why would God write the comprehensive commandments in stone with His own fingers (see Ex 24:12; 31:18; 32:16) and then let Moses rewrite the second set in stone ( the stone is also symbolic, Christ is our Rock, the corner stone, the stone in Daniel 2:35 that would replace all earthly kingdoms)? God wanted and chose to write them Himself! There are spiritual lessons in the texts that the HS reveals to whomever is willing to learn.

Also you do what MANY folk on this site tend to do which is to NOT cross reference the texts so you can comprehend what is happening in the biblical narratives.

 

Ex 34:28:"And (cross reference Deut 9:9)he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And (cross reference Ex 31:18; 32:16; Deut 10:2,4) he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

Cross referencing clears up MANY a misunderstanding. Those translators (NOT interpreters, the bible interprets itself) may have made some grammatical errors like no paragraph structures, run-ons and fragments or just plain ol' losing a little of the flavor from the Hebrew, Greek or Aramic languages in SOME cases and ... . However, that does not take away from the overall consistency of the bible.

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: Where are the ten commandments and where are they found?

 

It would seem you Sir are really confused as to what the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 commandments ( Ex 34:28) are. It would seem you, like many Christians out there (One Christian was asked who was Mary Magdalene and she said Jesus' mother. I'm not saying you are that ignorant, I'm just showing you that people don't know certain basic things), may have listened unquestioningly to what you were told and you are confused as hell (that's ol' Luci's strategy, confuse the people in order to deceive them). The list of the ten commandments are in Exodus 20:3-17. However, they or their principles are interspersed throughout scripture.

 

Here's a condensed + paraphrased version:

 

1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(See Ex 20:3; Matt 4:10)

 

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or ...

... AND bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: ...

(See Ex 20:4-6; 1 John 5:21; Acts 17:29)

 

3) Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain;

(See Ex 20:7; 1Tim 6:1)

 

4) Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (See Ex 20:8-11; Heb 4:4,9,10)

 

5) Honour thy father and thy mother:

(See Ex 20:12; Matt 19:19)

 

6) Thou shalt not kill.

(See Ex 20:13; Rom 13:9)

 

 

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

(See Ex 20:14; Matt 19:18)

 

8) Thou shalt not steal. (See Ex 20:15; Rom 13:9)

 

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

(See Ex 20:16; Rom 13:9)

 

 

10) Thou shalt not wrongly covet.

(See Ex 20:17; Rom 7:7)

 

 

 

Heretic said: That's the whole problem with Christianity is they point out sin. Love covers sin, oops did you forget that one?

 

 

 

I see you're repeating the mantra of the antinomianists -- break the commandments but loooooove one another. Love is not always a warm fuzzy feeling! Love is practical and the commandments are practical!

Love and grace covered/ covers our sins. However, that definitely does NOT negate the fact that the 10 commandments ought to be kept CONTINUALLY. Paul addressed this for antinomiamism was very present during his time. He said : What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? GOD FORBID!!!!! (Emphasis mine)

The commandments POINT out sin (Centauri thinks the devil has this function thereby giving the devil same status as God; that blasphemer, I.e. Centauri). They are not sin themselves and therefore should not be discarded.(see Romans 7:7)

The ten commandment law CANNOT save us - Jesus saves by grace through FAITH- but for peace and joy's sake they MUST be kept. Jesus imputed His righteousness for the WORLD (He took all our sins upon Himself in order to rescue us for certain, eternal death or nonexistence) but it is ONLY those that CHOOSE to accept His imputed righteousness (Rom 5:8) that will be able to draw upon His IMPARTED righteousness (See Phil 2:13; it's the power to resist the sin nature and do right) and it is these people, whom have a basic pattern of obeying God through faith, that will make it to heaven (see Rev 22:14)

 

Now Heretic, even in the secular world there are rules and regulations and if one breaks them there are penalties. If you are speeding and are about to get a speeding ticket and the officer, for some reason, had some pity? a crush? on you and she pardons you, does it mean that you now have free rein to break the laws against speeding?

Why are there laws against speeding? Why did God give His 10 Commandment law? Are both laws not for the safety, peace and joy of us all? The last 6 commandments deal with secular issues too so everyone should keep those and civil authorities may and do get involved in regulating those. However, secular authorities have no right to try to legislate the 1st 4 commandments. God gives us ALL a choice to worship Him or reject Him.

 

 

More about loooooove, Jesus said if you love Him then you'll show it by keeping His commandments (John 14:15) He says when we keep His commandments we then abide in His love (John 14:10). We show that we know/love Christ when we keep His commandments. If we don't keep them it shows we are liars and don't know/love Him (1 John 2:4) God's commandments are not burdensome; when we love Him we would want to please Him (1 John 5:3)

When we willfully break one commandment, we break all for we are disobeying the one we profess to love. The commandments are freeing (James 2:10-12). The 10 commandments are called the Royal law and they teach one to love ones neighbor (James 2:8). There are more lovey texts but I'll stop for now.

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: There never was a sin offering sacrifice,

 

Jesus was the ULTIMATE sacrifice!

 

 

 

Heretic said: you lied--it didn't start with Adam and Eve--See Jeremiah, never mind I forgot you don't read your bible, shame on you.

 

I am not going to read the entire book of Jeremiah just to go looking for maybe one text that you took out of context (cuz of your not knowing how to read surrounding verse and how to cross reference) to support your PRIVATE assertions. Cite the text(s), dude.

 

 

Heretic said: A Real Christian? unfamiliar with God's holy word!

 

If you were familiar with it (as in UNDERSTANDING it) you would not be an ex Christian. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the RIGHT word of God, you know.

 

 

 

Heretic said: You base your life on the myth of a talking snake?

 

 

 

You base your life on the myth that you're kissing cousins with the animals?

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: You don't read your bible,

 

Apparently that's what you did, we're supposed to STUDY it and not just read it superficially and go off on tangents cuz we would end up ashamed or ex Christians. N.B. I'm not questioning anyone's sincerity in the past; I'm pointing out where people were taught doctrines contrary to the bible. Many people were taught antinomianism (the commandments were nailed to the cross etc.. Can one nail stone to a cross?) You did not understand what you readeth (Acts 8:30)

 

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: you lied about Jesus, shame on you, you lied about the ten commandments, shame on you, tsk, tsk,

 

 

 

I did not lie, you just never learned to let the bible interpret itself in the right way. You went by what you were taught and by what you misunderstood and you THINK the bible is contradictory and confusing.

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: you are going to Hell. Burning in the fiery pits for putting into God's mouth the words he never spoke. I don't want to be in your shoes!

 

 

 

Apparently you have taken it upon yourself to acquire a prerogative that belongs only to God. You've decided what my final destiny is? Pardon me but I can't pay your opinion any mind.

 

 

Heretic said: romans chapter two even tells you it's blasphemy to preach the gospel to the Gentile cuz only jews need redeeming.

 

Now you're really making stuff up. It says no such thing. Since you wrote that I think I may have to put you on my frightened Chickadee list . Tell me what does this mean?: "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Genesis 22:18

 

Are ALL nations comprised of Jews? The Jews were supposed to evangelize the world and they failed time and time again till they instigated the death of Jesus. The gentiles ( Christian church in this case)are now to take up where they failed. Alas, whereas the Jews failed by keeping the law and ignoring the faith factor (that is an oxymoron, no one can truly obey the commandments without faith/trust/love in God), the Christians are failing by focusing on the faith factor and ditching the law. Both law and faith/trust/love are NEEDED in order to abide in Christ. You know like the song says "Precept and promise, law and love combining, "

However, the proverbial gates of hell will not prevail against the church. Overall the church is pretty lax as the bible predicted but she (the church) WILL wake up.

 

 

 

 

Heretic said: Every time a Christian opens their mouths they prove their god does not exist.

 

That may be true in some cases but you should not overgeneralize. God will not exist only to the deluded.

 

I hope one day you become sober and vigilant, God does not want you to perish.

 

 

 

........

 

You also do not seem to understand the difference between the ten commandment law and the ceremonial laws. The ten commandment law points out sin and gives us instructions on how to live peaceably with each other. The ceremonial laws were the second set of laws ( that's what Deuteronomy means, second law). They were ADDED because folks were breaking -and would have been breaking -the ten commandment laws. These laws were against the people as they had to perform certain rituals which showed them that they were GUILTY, GUILTY,GUILTY, of breaking the ten commandment law and that they NEEDED a SAVIOR from their Savior I Need (SINS).

 

 

 

P.S. You were harping about Jeremiah earlier and saying that God did not give the law to Moses. I happened to see you were harping about it elsewhere and you actually cited the text! You cited Jer 7:22 and as usual you are putting your own spin on the text and not letting the bible interpret itself. Dude, the text is saying that without faith/love/trust in God that works are meaningless. God did not give the Patriarchs a law of works. God ALWAYS looks for righteousness (right doing/works) by FAITH. Maybe you can actually try your hand at cross referencing AND letting the HS aid you in understanding the texts

[Thumbelina]

But the orgasm of christianity fizzles after a while... ... .

 

 

 

 

 

The honeymoon does not always last. I complained to Jesus about that one time when I was missing it and right at that moment he led me to a portion of my study bible that says that the feeling of euphoria won't be there continually but He has made us promises that His word is sure and no one can pluck us from His hand once we choose Him.

 

 

 

 

And you're left with fear, guilt and shame.

 

Hmmm, so there are more frightened chickadees around here beside Centauri and Aman?

 

As a believer I was left with fear, guilt and shame.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Fear is not of God, fear is torment (1 John 4:18) God is holy and His holiness causes sinners to fear but He bids us come. He wants us to boldly approach Him (Heb 4:16)

 

midnightrider said: Until I jettisoned the lie known as christianity. Now I feel better. Before christianity, no fear. During christianity, fear. After tossing christianity out, no fear.

 

Thumbelina: Yeah, we are aversed to experiencing bad emotions. A misunderstanding of God will cause that. I've never been afraid of God, my experiences with Him has been the "learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." God is wonderful, I did not realize how much until I started digging into the word more.

 

 

 

midnightrider said: It's been fun debating with you

 

Thumbelina: Thanks for your time.

 

 

midnightrider said: but I think it's time to move onto something productive. For me that's paganism, parapsychology, quantum mechanics, magick; you know, all those evil things. :-)

 

Thumbelina: Yeah, you're a Crowlian.

 

 

 

midnightrider said: Gives you a big hug and disappears in a puff of smoke.

 

Thumbelina: Christianly hugs.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

I used the future tense.

 

The bible says men will be utterly evil in the last days prior to Christ's return. I did cite the texts that said all the evil resurrected dead will attack the New Jerusalem. The bible does put the sin of hate in the category of murder you know (1 John 3:15)> Before a person murders someone they THINK about doing it.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: The Bible is the ultimate authority.

 

Aman said: Says who?

 

 

 

Says it (the bible) via the HS.

 

 

 

 

 

Aman said: And who created this Bible,

 

 

 

The HS inspired man and used man to write it for man.

 

 

 

 

 

Aman said: and when exactly,

 

It's a compilation of books that spans over 1500 years.

 

 

 

 

Aman said: and for what reasons exactly?

 

It's the Basic Instructions Bringing Life Eternal.

 

 

 

 

Aman said: Please show me your knowledge of the Bible on those questions before you spout this myth.

 

I told you before that the bible proves itself but all you do is scoff.

 

 

Thumbelina said: Alas, if it is not rightly used one can make it say almost anything one wants. To prevent that, one needs to compare scripture with scripture and seeming contradictions would vanish.

 

 

Aman said: If you do in fact compare scripture with scripture, through an educated mind - not one full of ignorant assumptions, it will in fact expose that you are doing just this. Through your ignorance and desire for black and white truths to tell you the answers to life, you are making it say what you need it to say. The reality is it does say many things, and can be read in both negative and positive ways. It really depends on the mentality of the person reading it, along with their education level, that demonstrates a reflection of their heart. How you read it is pretty fearful and bleak. That's the scripture of your heart.

 

 

 

Man, you're making up stuff. The bible has a gospel (good news) and it's for ANYONE who is willing to embrace even if they are simple

(Ps 119:130).

To us humans there are grey areas but God helps with those.

 

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said: Yes, every believer is at a different stage in their delusion.

 

Thumbelina said: I'd say every non believer is at a different stage in their delusion. I hope none here committed the unpardonable sin.

 

 

Aman said: And the fact you believe you have 'got it' and others don't speaks to me that you are self-deluded.

 

 

I don't got it, God has it and I'm pointing others to Him. You are free to believe what you wish as do I.

 

 

Aman said: You are unwilling/unable to see others for who they are inside.

 

Man can only look at the outward appearance, it is God that can truly read hearts; however, the Word says we ought to have charity (give a person the benefit of the doubt or at least look for something positive in them or try to reserve judging them too harshly when they are out of hand).

 

 

 

 

Aman said: You need to condemn others to protect yourself.That is your delusion.

 

I am commanded not to condemn others. Unlike some other religions, Christianity teaches that created beings cannot condemn others for they cannot read hearts.

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said: So is Westboro Baptist not at the 'same level of understanding' as you, Thumb?

Or are they WRONG? Just wondering

 

 

Thumbelina said: Westboro Baptist Church, such craziness. The atheists made me know about that, I had no idea. They (the Westboro people) have taken it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner and that is not the job of any human

 

 

Aman said: The truth is Thumbs,

 

You said there is no absolute truth

 

 

 

Aman said: you are very much the same as the Westboro folks. You're doing the exact same thing they are, just to an ever-so-slightly lesser degree of foul and obnoxious behavior. But in you, as in them, it comes from the same place. A deep fear to look inside at themselves. You just don't see it that way, because it's you doing it. Give you a couple more ticks of alienation from your own heart and you could be out there picketing funerals right along with them, quoting the Bible just like you are now, justifying yourself just as you are now.

 

 

Looky here Mr. Judgmental tangent-going prognosticator, my bible says you as an unbeliever can't judge me . I got faults, I'm willing for God to continue to work with me and as long as I abide in Him and receive biblical instruction I won't be following in their stead. Christ said He did not come to condemn the world so why would I want to? I'll be putting myself on Luci's side if I did that.

[Guest Valk0010]

Post 287:

 

Indoctrination incarnate

[Thumbelina]

The people will be facing the consequences of their OWN actions. Revelation 20: 7-10 says the resurrected wicked will be deceived by Satan AGAIN and they would attack (well try to) the Holy City. They would have the SAME characters they had before they died; God will show the universe that these evil beings will NEVER change:

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Their CHERISHED sins would have caused them to be consumed.

Are you saying that people like Bin Laden should not be removed from society? Well picture a gazillion Bin Ladens and vicarious Bin Ladens, those will be the characters of people who reject God. You are speaking out of your lack of understanding of scripture Valk, there is much you are misunderstanding. However, it is nice that you are pondering these questions, many people do not question. They just go with the flow and don't think.

I don't speak from a lack of understanding of the the bible.

 

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

 

 

Valk said: I speak as a person looking at the bible that isn't deluded by a cult. Again as I said before, for you "ignorance is strength."

 

It's good to be objective but God's help is needed to understand His Word. The bible is not an ordinary book.

Oh, I think I at least have the beginning of wisdom (Proverbs 9:10)

 

 

Valk said: I am saying as I have said in this entire thread. If your god is omni benevolent or even a good being, he couldn't have created this world. I have said nothing particularly about free will and definitely have not said god needs protection from anything.I am saying, if he is the most perfect being, that he couldn't even allow the creation of evil.

And fuck you very much for equating me to osama bin laden.

 

 

The bible and its proponents disagree with you.

You were responding emotionally. I call you Sweetie Pie, d'you think I would call an Osama Bin Laden that? I am sharing what the bible says and not condemning anyone.

[Thumbelina]

Okay Thumbelina! Is it not time that you came clean?

 

I have watched this thread develop since the beginning. I have seen you avoid certain posters in this thread. One in particular is "Centauri." You KNOW Centauri has the better of you ... that is why YOU try and ignore his posts! In fact his first post was met only with ridicule and jest by you ... see your post # 28.

"Darlin'! You know I miss you but not your craziness. I hope you get insight into these things and soon. I still don't want Luci' to get you."

 

Why? because YOU know you struggle to answer his posts! You KNOW he has the better of you!

 

 

 

Not at all, I have a history with Centauri, I TRIED MANY times to reason with him but that dude has tunnel vision atm. He's scared but he's not witless. To protect himself from the God he fears he has these repetitive mantras that blocks out what the bible says. Showing him how to compare scripture with scripture is useless, showing him some of the original language is useless. Showing some practical, common sense reasons for whatever we were discussing is useless. His record is stuck in the grove. He's scared! Poor fellow. However, I did get a glimpse that he could understand the good news of salvation. He won't examine the evidence atm lest at any time he should be converted and his sins be forgiven him.

Methinks he's quite weary of Christianty and scared of any perceived emotional pain

 

I love him.

 

 

 

I now see the same thing happening with "Antlerman's" latest posts! You KNOW that you do not have an answer for him! Now you are being dishonest and waiting for new posts to HIDE these posts without you having to address them!Time for some honestly Thumbelina! Admit you are out of your depth.

 

 

 

To me Aman has some similar characteristics to Centauri. They're both scared. As a matter of fact, the first time I noticed Aman he used to be rather quiet, then I saw him get spunky and then he was quite passionate about whatever he was defending and I thought "That is one frightened moderator! " At the time I did not know he could compartmentalize so well. There's moderator Aman and there's frightened ex Christian Aman. Back then I told him he reminded me of Centauri, now I know why. IMO, they're basically nice fellows who are quite weary of Christianity and they have self- protective walls that are as thick as the walls that surrounded ancient Babylon.

 

 

 

In fact ... a suggestion ... Maybe Thumbelina versus Centauri or Antlerman in the Arena? Not much has happened there for a while! I think that would really show you for what you are! Any chance of that??So WAITING Thumbelina ... please address the Antlerman and Centauri posts ... WAITING!!

 

 

Man, you know how slow I am with posting, can you imagine me over in that arena? Not only that, I say you guys don't know the scripture well and many REFUSE to examine the bible the way it says it should be examined. Aman and Centauri are quite passionate about their views, they have preconceived ideas about the bible that they won't let go of and a debate would not go anywhere. Hence the reason I tease and pray. God has to soften hearts. Maybe one day they'll yearn for God and they'll remember the crazy Christian that teased them and bugged them about the bible and they eventually end up walking the streets of gold. How cool will that be?

[Thumbelina]

I poured my heart and "soul" into my last post, i hope you respond thumbalina!

 

I know and I wanted to reply before but ... .

[Thumbelina]

I did not abandon this thread, hope to get back to it. I was just trying to respond here and the stupid batteries from my keyboard died on me and I can't seem to find the replacements. I'm borrowing batteries from other gadgets and they're dying on me too.

 

(The Goddess of Random Equipment Malfunctions grins, baring Her teeth in a rather unfriendly manner) Perhaps I should try for Thumbie's fridge next. Or should it be her wheels? Decisions, decisions...

 

(Astreja's Inner Computer Geek ethos clicks in) Thumbelina, save yourself a lot of grief: Toss that hunk o' junk and get yourself a cheap USB keyboard rather than a wireless one.

 

It works perfectly fine. I guess it was awhile since the batteries were changed. Thnx.

 

 

And yes, Thumbelina, if hell does exist I do intend to go there and there is nothing you can do to prevent that.

 

 

Oh I dunno, I see you as a brand plucked from the burning? It's my hope that you find eternal bliss. Of course you are free to refuse it.

[Guest Valk0010]

You thumb. I wish for eternal bliss. I was thinking about lying my head on a train track as a train went buy about 3 days ago. I got my head back on straight due to about the only thing that I have that gives me a reason to live and that is music. It wasn't god. I so wish there was a heaven for me to go to. But it just simply isn't there. The sky's are empty.

 

But I also wish for clarity and logic and proof and rationality and to know the truth.

 

I know with a fair amount of certainity that if I put my head on that train track, that I would not be going anywhere. I wasn't scared.

 

That is because, irregardless of whatever particular verse you could twist in the bible. I still see no reason to believe in a god.

 

I see no reason to believe that jesus rose from the dead. The evidence is just about as good as any crackpot miracle or religious miracle that i have ever seen.

 

The bible is so incredibly obviously a product of its time. Even the idea of a blood sacrifice for forgiveness is absurd if thought of in any different way other then training (judeochristianity).

 

Men create god's generally. I don't see why I should have to think of a god who was chosen out of a polytheistic pantheon should be exempt from that.

 

I see no reason to believe in a soul.

 

I see no reason to believe in prayer. (Even in the last several months I was a christian I think I prayed only 10 times).

 

This is a cold cold world devoid of any supernatural meaning.

 

This bible you so love has twisted your mind. "I am not condeming you, but only telling you what the bible says"

 

Why do you want to belief in this stuff? I don't get it.

 

Why do you want to close yourself off, to things like actual love.

 

Say if we were married tommorow. I would not treat you as if your second to me. If I was in love with you, you would be my queen.

If I were to believe in the bible, I would have to treat you as second to me. I couldn't do it. I couldn't even as a christian.

 

Say if you were my daughter and you told me your a lesbian. I would be accepting with open arms totally.

If I were to believe in the bible, I could never have a real relationship with you again.

 

Why would anybody call this god loving or sane? I don't get it. Even if you could win this arguement we have had hear (you haven't even made a dent with all your criticisms I have already considered). There is still no reasoning why anybody should believe this, or want to believe this thing called christianity.

[Thumbelina]

Valk, I'm sorry you are going through such a really tough time ((( hugs))) I know this life can be discouraging but please try not to focus on your problems all the time. I hope things look up for you and that God manifests Himself to you and give you the comfort you want/need.

 

 

 

P. S. I may not be responding for awhile, I'm not ignoring , I got stuff going on too.

[Guest Valk0010]

Here is another one. Divorce.

 

What sense is it, to say its a sin, for a women in a abusive, but not unfaithful marriage, that is wrong to leave?

 

If anybody else but the bible said that, people would be saying that is fucked up. But because its in the bible it is somehow rational.

 

Its absurd.

[Guest Valk0010]

Valk, I'm sorry you are going through such a really tough time ((( hugs))) I know this life can be discouraging but please try not to focus on your problems all the time. I hope things look up for you and that God manifests Himself to you and give you the comfort you want/need.

 

 

 

P. S. I may not be responding for awhile, I'm not ignoring , I got stuff going on too.

Thanks for the sentiment.

[Antlerman]

Thumbelina said: The Bible is the ultimate authority.

 

Aman said: Says who?

 

Says it (the bible) via the HS.

 

 

Aman said: And who created this Bible,

 

 

The HS inspired man and used man to write it for man.

 

Aman said: and when exactly,

 

It's a compilation of books that spans over 1500 years.

 

Aman said: and for what reasons exactly?

 

It's the Basic Instructions Bringing Life Eternal.

 

Aman said: Please show me your knowledge of the Bible on those questions before you spout this myth.

 

I told you before that the bible proves itself but all you do is scoff.

That was a pathetic response to each question. I'll give you a flat F score on this essay response. Therefore you are unqualified to tell others anything about the Bible. To you, it might as well be a book of magic dropped out of the sky by pixies. You have no knowledge of it.

 

BTW, I don't scoff the Bible at all. I scoff at your proud, ignorant displays. Now I could attempt to educate you, but in my heart I can tell you have no interest in knowledge at all at this point of life, no interest in growth, no interest in anything other than what you tell yourself with a hood over your head.

 

If you can go back and actually respond to my questions with intelligent, researched answers I might actually give you a better grade than a flat F.

 

Thumbelina said: Alas, if it is not rightly used one can make it say almost anything one wants. To prevent that, one needs to compare scripture with scripture and seeming contradictions would vanish.

 

 

Aman said: If you do in fact compare scripture with scripture, through an educated mind - not one full of ignorant assumptions, it will in fact expose that you are doing just this. Through your ignorance and desire for black and white truths to tell you the answers to life, you are making it say what you need it to say. The reality is it does say many things, and can be read in both negative and positive ways. It really depends on the mentality of the person reading it, along with their education level, that demonstrates a reflection of their heart. How you read it is pretty fearful and bleak. That's the scripture of your heart.

 

 

 

Man, you're making up stuff. The bible has a gospel (good news) and it's for ANYONE who is willing to embrace even if they are simple

(Ps 119:130).

To us humans there are grey areas but God helps with those.

And here is a great example of you making the Bible say what you want it to say to support your beliefs about it. This is pathetic Thumbs.

 

midnightrider said: Yes, every believer is at a different stage in their delusion.

 

Thumbelina said: I'd say every non believer is at a different stage in their delusion. I hope none here committed the unpardonable sin.

 

 

Aman said: And the fact you believe you have 'got it' and others don't speaks to me that you are self-deluded.

 

 

I don't got it, God has it and I'm pointing others to Him. You are free to believe what you wish as do I.

 

 

Aman said: You are unwilling/unable to see others for who they are inside.

 

Man can only look at the outward appearance, it is God that can truly read hearts; however, the Word says we ought to have charity (give a person the benefit of the doubt or at least look for something positive in them or try to reserve judging them too harshly when they are out of hand).

You say the words... but you have no actual realization of that in your heart. Also, your notion of 'charity', which is in fact Love, as 'give the person the benefit of the doubt, or at least look for something positive, or reserve judging too harshly', is a very limited, undeveloped child's-eye understanding of compassion and love. It's externalized only. You don't understand it as that internal wellspring.

 

Do not judge. Period. Why? Read your own Bible. The answer is there. But you have to be humble in your heart first in order to see it.

 

Aman said: You need to condemn others to protect yourself.That is your delusion.

 

I am commanded not to condemn others. Unlike some other religions, Christianity teaches that created beings cannot condemn others for they cannot read hearts.

But you do it all the time here on this site. You are judging us as going to hell, that we are lost in our hearts, etc, and on what basis? On what basis? Because we don't think like you do? We don't believe the myths you do as facts? That makes us hell-bound? No Thumbs, you are judging others, and doing so without justification.

 

Again, you say the right words, but the meaning is empty with you.

 

midnightrider said: So is Westboro Baptist not at the 'same level of understanding' as you, Thumb?

Or are they WRONG? Just wondering

 

 

Thumbelina said: Westboro Baptist Church, such craziness. The atheists made me know about that, I had no idea. They (the Westboro people) have taken it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner and that is not the job of any human

 

 

Aman said: The truth is Thumbs,

 

You said there is no absolute truth

Maybe a number of years ago, but not now. However, by that absolute Truth I speak of now, it sure as hell isn't something that any of us can state as facts and lord over others, the way you attempt to do every time you come in here. Understand?

 

I could attempt to explain my views on this, but I honestly believe it's way outside what you could process at this point in your internal understanding.

 

Aman said: you are very much the same as the Westboro folks. You're doing the exact same thing they are, just to an ever-so-slightly lesser degree of foul and obnoxious behavior. But in you, as in them, it comes from the same place. A deep fear to look inside at themselves. You just don't see it that way, because it's you doing it. Give you a couple more ticks of alienation from your own heart and you could be out there picketing funerals right along with them, quoting the Bible just like you are now, justifying yourself just as you are now.

 

 

Looky here Mr. Judgmental tangent-going prognosticator, my bible says you as an unbeliever can't judge me . I got faults, I'm willing for God to continue to work with me and as long as I abide in Him and receive biblical instruction I won't be following in their stead. Christ said He did not come to condemn the world so why would I want to? I'll be putting myself on Luci's side if I did that.

You are doing right now what they do, and it is coming from the same place. You look outside yourself for answers, for something to call an absolute authority, then read it how you want to and justify your own alienation and critical judgment of others. You are them, in an ever-so-slightly less obnoxious manifestation.

 

I sincerely wish for you an opening into your heart to see that absolute Truth that is in you and all of us, and that you may know it fully within yourself. Through that then, you can see others and not judge them with your god; that god with a small g which is an extension of your own self-facing ego, not Love and compassion.

[mymistake]

Not at all, I have a history with Centauri, I TRIED MANY times to reason with him but that dude has tunnel vision atm.

 

You mean you lack the ability to reason. I have watched you for nearly a year now Thumby. Reasoning is beyond your power. You can't do it any more than you can fly by flaping wings. You are not a bird anymore than you are somebody who can put forward a valid argument.

 

To protect himself from the God he fears he has these repetitive mantras that blocks out what the bible says.

 

You are delusional.

 

Showing him how to compare scripture with scripture is useless, showing him some of the original language is useless.

 

You project your own inadequasy. Take some responsibility and admit that what you describe above is actually one of your problems.

 

Showing some practical, common sense reasons for whatever we were discussing is useless.

 

Again, you describe your own problem.

 

He won't examine the evidence atm lest at any time he should be converted and his sins be forgiven him.

 

There is no evidence. You are acting like those poor saps in The Emperor's New Clothes. The emperor is naked. No amount of pretending that you can see what isn't there will make you wise.

[centauri]

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

All you have to do is remember what the Gospel of John says.

What you ask for was the prayer made by Jesus himself.

 

John 17:20-21(NIV)

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

The prayer failed, which discredits both Jesus and a multitude of Christian denominations.

 

 

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

You've just had it presented but you reject it, just as you reject so many other scriptures that don't serve your agenda.

Perhaps you're frighted to see the scripture refute your claims.

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

 

This was the prayer of Jesus himself.

That all believers would be as one, just as he was one with the Father.

 

John 17:22-23(NIV)

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one —

I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

Complete unity means same doctrine and understanding.

Complete unity means agreement, just as Jesus was supposed to be in complete unity with the Father.

Obviously the prayer failed, which not even you can deny given the fact that Christianity has hundreds of denominations that cannot agree with each other.

 

However, Jesus' prayer will eventually be answered, there will be a latter rain but there will also be great apostacies just as the bible predicted.

The prayer of Jesus was to be effective in that time period and would apply to those that believed after he had died.

That was the whole purpose of it, to convince unbelievers that Jesus was sent by God.

Christians would display complete unity as verification.

Furthermore, Jesus was supposed to return before all of his associates had died, which means this was all supposed to play out within a one century timeframe.

 

There are no qualifiers in the text stating that the prayer wasn't to be taken seriously until thousands of years had passed.

Promises of "eventual" fulfillment are as empty as the claims about a second coming.

 

Centauri you and your dang tangents. Virtually every Christian who looks at the bible knows that Jesus' prayer was answered at Pentecost (Check out the book of Acts).

If the prayer was answered at Pentecost, there wouldn't be hundreds of Christian conflicting denominations today.

 

Man, I addressed you as if you already knew that; I'd forgotten it was you and you look for any opportunity to blaspheme.

Holding you accountable isn't blasphemy, it's a public service.

 

The church grew exponentially after Pentecost, they were evangelizing the then known world BUT, but you neglect to look at the portions of scripture that says that the unity will not be continually consistent, for grievous wolves will enter, not sparing the flock (see Acts 20:29)

There are no qualifiers in John 17 that say the unity among believers would be inconsistent, sporadic, or ineffective most of the time.

The purpose of the prayer was to ensure complete unity among believers, which would serve as a sign to the world that Jesus was legitimate.

 

Furthermore, the events at Pentecost are suspect because John claimed that the Holy Spirit was given to the disciples before Jesus ascended, not 50 days later.

 

*sigh* I have TRIED many times to show you how to compare scripture with scripture so you can actually see a gospel but your myopic view would not permit it

My experience has taught me not to be bamboozled by theological telemarketers.

 

That's why I keep telling you that you need spittle and clay for your eyes.

If you apply the spittle then you would receive a vision and you won't perish. You'll see that scripture let's us know that there would have been a delay. You would see that scripture gave time prophecies up until the 19th century. Darlin', I hope you see it, I genuinely like you and this is virtual world so I reckon in the real world you're probably a nicer fella than your virtual self. Even if you're not as nice as I imagine, God still loves you and so do I. I mean, I'm tryin' to show you that you don't need to be a frightened chickadee, cuz fear is torment. I want you to be free and for you to quit cowering behind the chicken coop.

You're operating under a misconception.

If I was frightened, I'd be groveling at the feet of the nearest pastor, tithing to their church, and praying for Jesus to take over my life.

I've seen firsthand how that type of fear is generated by religious bullies.

 

By the way, the chickadees at my bird feeder tend to be bold little birds that are quite adaptive.

They manage to survive despite other birds bullying.

[Astreja]

Oh I dunno, I see you as a brand plucked from the burning? It's my hope that you find eternal bliss. Of course you are free to refuse it.

 

I do refuse it, Thumbelina, because I can have no peace if even one sentient being is being tortured by your imaginary friend. Furthermore, My eternity would be endless days of self-loathing if I were forced to make nice with an omnipotent being who had put anyone into the flames and left them there.

 

I would sooner spend eternity commiserating with "Lucy," much as My auntie Sigyn looked out for uncle Loki in the run-up to Ragnarok, by catching the snake venom that was burning His eyes.

 

Is this really too difficult for you to understand, Thumbelina? Can't you see the unremitting horror of worshipping a torturer-god, calling its infinite evil "love"?

 

If you really want Me to be saved, pray right here and right now for your god to eliminate hell and free all the prisoners.