Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Guest Valk0010]

Didn't it say about judas, that he should have wished he never been born or something along those lines? Sounds like wrong doing to me!

 

You gotta supply the texts, hon'. You don't understand just how horrible sin is, if you did you would not make excuses for Judas and the like.

http://www.biblegate...:24&version=NIV

 

 

Matthew 26:24

 

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

 

 

I did not even notice you found the text. What Judas did was terrible. It's like those muslims who were blowing up the jewish children in their schools, terrible. Jesus did nothing to deserve what Judas did and Judas will feel the flames of hell for awhile but it was his CHOICE. He could have gone to heaven at the resurrection on the last day but he PREFERRED temporal things. He had Jesus right there teaching him too, how tragic .

 

 

 

Omniscience or intelligence, does not bode well for you. As I said before, if judas was needed for jesus to die. God damned a man to hell, eternally as far as I can see. And even temporary. More or less as far as I can see. Judas was driven to suicide by god (if you take the story to be reliable, which I am not convinced it is). After all, if god is omniscient, he knew what judas would do before he did it.

 

Judas was not needed, Jesus had plenty enemies! Prophecy tells that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend, God knew this but He did not cause it. The texts said that Satan entered Judas and Satan could not have entered Judas if Judas did not choose to stop abiding in Christ. God gave him over to his own CHOICES!

 

It dosnt matter if there was one available man or many, if it was in your plan for Jesus to die on the cross, and it was foretold in prophecy that he would be betrayed then it was determined some man would betray him. Rather it be Judas or another, he was preordained to go to hell for betraying Jesus.

 

You are just trying to deny the fact that there is a God that knows the future and this happened with the Judas situation: "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29

And your point? He is after all omniscient and knew what would happen or what would likely happen when he first created the world.

 

Yes but His purposes would be accomplished. He would get billions of humans to live with Him forever and because they love Him too!

 

Ah, I gotta go, Sweetie Pie, don't know when I'll be back.

 

Take care.

Might doesn't make right. Killing people to get what you want, is the type of thing, a dictator type like say Chairmen Mao would do. If god is right for doing it, then you would have to say Mao is right because he is following god's moral example. Afterall authority alone means correctness in moral decisions right? Whatever happened to it being absurd to say "do as I say not as I do!" You would say its right for god to do but wrong for mao. But that is illogical. Either mass slaughter is wrong or it isn't. Authority can't change the correctness of something.

 

ITS ABSURD.

[midniterider]

So you're a frightened chickadee too? Yes, agree, Christianity misunderstood will do that. E.g. I saw two pastors shaking their heads and saying that that once saved, always saved doctrine should be called the doctrine of uncertainty. I hear it messes people up!

 

(Me)

Which is the 'right' understanding...I hear there are at least 30,000 sects of christianity that all believe something slightly different...oh wait, I forgot yours...make that 30,001.

 

 

(Thumb)

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

 

If you were the devil, how would you fool people into disobeying God? Would you tell them to form a church where the congregants kidnap babies and eat them?

 

(Me)

When you say, "christianity misunderstood" you mean "not as Thumbelina believes." Yes, every believer is at a different stage in their delusion. And every person who belongs to a different sect is instructed that theirs is the 'correct' delusion while all others are wrong, or at least a bit inferior. Hence, the booklets at the xian bookstore about why Mormonism is wrong, why Catholicism is wrong, why (pick a denomination) is wrong.

 

Eat babies? You mean like god commands people to do in Deut 28:53? Or Jeremiah 19:9? Or what? I'm sure neither you nor I could see a church forming where congregants kidnap and eat babies in this day and age. That behavior would be illegal anyway. Do you see anything wrong with those two scriptures? God commanding people to eat babies? I couldnt command anyone to eat a baby. It just isn't right. What if god told you to eat your baby? Would you? You don't have to answer these questions. Just something to think about.

 

So is Westboro Baptist not at the 'same level of understanding' as you, Thumb? Or are they WRONG? Just wondering.

[midniterider]

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

 

We completely understand the absurd notions that you are trying to foist upon us.

 

 

 

 

I have not seen evidence for this. You used the right word, notion, with a wrong understanding of the law it would be hard to embrace God FULLY (N. B. I said fully, I did NOT say God was never embraced).

 

 

Embraced vs Fully Embraced. You are splitting hairs. "I only loved god with 99.999999999999999% of my heart......then I fell away....if I had given that .00000000000001%, I would have never been able to leave him." Baloney. Keep grasping at straws, Thumb.

 

Oh and when did you start needing evidence? I thought you were a christian. Have faith that what we tell you is the truth. haha. I guess truth only aligns with what YOU believe it to be. How convenient. You are god's chosen one!

 

You seem to think that if someone knows and accepts something like you know and accept it that it would be impossible for someone to reject god. This indicates that you either think all people are exactly alike (i.e. like you) in their mental/emotional makeup and/or that people do not have free will to reject a belief in god.

 

People get addicted to crack. It is very hard to reject that high. But after a while they have discovered it has screwed up their life and if they have any self-respect they quit so they will feel better. Since practicing christianity has screwed up people's sanity here why would you want someone to screw up their sanity again by returning to christianity? We are here to recover our sanity. You are here to promote insanity. You are evil.

[mymistake]

You are just trying to deny the fact that there is a God that knows the future and this happened with the Judas situation: "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29

 

Where is the objective evidence that this is fact? Oh that is right, you don't do objective evidence. Well in that case don't call something a fact when you can't show it to be fact.

 

 

You are also trying to deny the fact that people have the freedom to choose their destiny.

 

So everyone who is not a millionaire is not a millionaire because they considered that destiny and decided they didn't want it? I find we have very little control over our destiny.

 

Again the word "fact" does not mean "an opinion held by Thumbelina". Quit misusing the word.

[mymistake]

Yes but His purposes would be accomplished. He would get billions of humans to live with Him forever and because they love Him too!

 

If that is God's goal then God is a failure.

 

Ah, I gotta go, Sweetie Pie, don't know when I'll be back.

 

Take care.

 

Did all the trolls get called back under the bridge?

[centauri]

P.S. You really, really, really, really, really should let Jesus put some spittle and clay in those eyes of yours. You're kinda entertaining though I hope you get to make it to heaven so you can oooh and ahhh and eat your crazy words (I'm referring to you trying to discredit the bible)!

 

But you discredit the Bible all by yourself.

 

I do not! I have a gospel.

And you wrote it yourself.

 

You constantly ignore anything from the Bible when it doesn't conform to your imaginings.

 

I know you do, ya chicken. I don't you know, decide to lose the fear and God will help you see.

You still haven't cited the passage from Genesis that says Satan tricked Eve.

You still haven't shown that God doesn't predestine and directly manipulate at least some human behavior.

You deny Eph 1:4-5,11, Rom 8, Rom 9, and the Old Testament.

Your denials are legion.

People will notice that sort of thing here.

 

Hopefully, lurkers will take note and see the hypocrisy that this religion exhibits.

 

God has sheep amongst the lurkers and they will eventually hear His voice

You want them to hear your voice.

Sheep are exactly what you're looking for.

[centauri]

Jesus took our place so the entire human race could be saved but we aren't saved en masse, each cognizant individual has to make their OWN choice to ACCEPT the FREE salvation that we are offered.

Those that are predestined don't need to choose, their status was assured beforehand.

There is no "free" salvation, unless you are predestined.

If you aren't predestined, then you have to believe, maintain belief, confess, repent, be baptized, and do works of charity.

These are all works that the individual must perform.

Salvation isn't free when works are required in order to obtain it.

 

I keep on explainin' this to you and you keep on not listenin'. I hope you do see one day, you're kinda nice, it'll be a shame for you to lose on on salvation.

I can see very clearly when people are passing off their imaginings as divine revelation.

I'll keep pointing out your inconsistencies and denials of scripture because it illustrates the utterly subjective nature of your religion.

[centauri]

You are also trying to deny the fact that people have the freedom to choose their destiny.

What fact would that be?

You're making things up again and trying to pass them off as "facts".

Scripture shows your dishonesty on this "free will" talking point of yours.

Eph 1:4-5.11, Rom 8, and Rom 9, all indicate with clarity that God predestines some people to their beliefs and roles in life.

God also manipulates some people to behave in certain ways as clearly shown in the Old Testament.

Pharaoh and the King of Heshbon are prime examples.

[centauri]

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

All you have to do is remember what the Gospel of John says.

What you ask for was the prayer made by Jesus himself.

 

John 17:20-21(NIV)

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

The prayer failed, which discredits both Jesus and a multitude of Christian denominations.

[midniterider]

You are also trying to deny the fact that people have the freedom to choose their destiny.

What fact would that be?

You're making things up again and trying to pass them off as "facts".

Scripture shows your dishonesty on this "free will" talking point of yours.

Eph 1:4-5.11, Rom 8, and Rom 9, all indicate with clarity that God predestines some people to their beliefs and roles in life.

God also manipulates some people to behave in certain ways as clearly shown in the Old Testament.

Pharaoh and the King of Heshbon are prime examples.

 

LALALALA. She is not going to listen to that predestination thing. That would destroy her reason to be here. She will ignore that scripture or spin a different meaning to what it plainly says or match it with a contradictory scripture...wait!...the bible can't be contradictory!!! lol. Well, unless Thumb needs a contradictory scripture to fight back with...but with a little bit of 'spin' she can make exact opposites appear to reconcile.

 

Man has free will , right Thumb? Until he knows and loves god the way Thumb does...then...his free will is shut off because he is in such an orgasmic state that would preclude his being able to disconnect. But the orgasm of christianity fizzles after a while...just like everything else. And you're left with fear, guilt and shame. And then you quit that absurdity.

[hereticzero]

.....

Who gave the law of the blood sacrifice to the Jew?

Was Cain a Jew, was Abraham a Jew? Did they sacrifice animals? God gave the sacrificial system to impress upon the minds of people that sin causes death and that though they deserved death, there would be a substitute for them.

It shows you are unfamiliar with the OT prophet Jeremiah who claimed the law of sacrifice was NEVER given to Moses. That pretty much makes your version of what a sacrifice is, totally made up bullshit. God never gave the 'sacrificial system' to anyone to 'impress upon' anyone's mind anything about sin. The sacifice system, as you call it, was totally invented by the Priests.

 

What do you think God claims when he says, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' about half a dozen times in the babble means?

 

The Ten Commandments are traditions taught as commandments, god never gave to Moses.

 

That means Christians teach tradition as a commandment of God which makes Christianity blasphemy to God for putting words in his mouth he never spoke. You are really going to Hell! Bye, bye.

[Thumbelina]

Didn't it say about judas, that he should have wished he never been born or something along those lines? Sounds like wrong doing to me!

 

You gotta supply the texts, hon'. You don't understand just how horrible sin is, if you did you would not make excuses for Judas and the like.

http://www.biblegate...:24&version=NIV

 

 

Matthew 26:24

 

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

 

 

I did not even notice you found the text. What Judas did was terrible. It's like those muslims who were blowing up the jewish children in their schools, terrible. Jesus did nothing to deserve what Judas did and Judas will feel the flames of hell for awhile but it was his CHOICE. He could have gone to heaven at the resurrection on the last day but he PREFERRED temporal things. He had Jesus right there teaching him too, how tragic .

 

 

 

Omniscience or intelligence, does not bode well for you. As I said before, if judas was needed for jesus to die. God damned a man to hell, eternally as far as I can see. And even temporary. More or less as far as I can see. Judas was driven to suicide by god (if you take the story to be reliable, which I am not convinced it is). After all, if god is omniscient, he knew what judas would do before he did it.

 

Judas was not needed, Jesus had plenty enemies! Prophecy tells that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend, God knew this but He did not cause it. The texts said that Satan entered Judas and Satan could not have entered Judas if Judas did not choose to stop abiding in Christ. God gave him over to his own CHOICES! God let prophecy play out but He did not command Judas to sin, He just let him do it.

 

Colossians 1:16

 

 

16 For by6 him all things were created, lin heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether mthrones or ndominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created othrough him and for him.

 

He could have very easily not created the world, he is after all god.

 

So if this is the best of all possible worlds you seem to like to defend, then that god is evil.

 

 

Why your texts are so utterly small?

Stop taking the texts outta context. God is holding this world together, see the dime and God concept (I think?) It's talking about His creative acts.

Sorry picked from a awlful site for copy and past.

 

God isn't holding the world together, its the laws of physics.

 

This whole universe is one big creative act on the part of god.

 

Obtuse, ohh you padiwan you are.

 

 

 

God answers the why questions, scientists do not know about the why.

[Thumbelina]

Didn't it say about judas, that he should have wished he never been born or something along those lines? Sounds like wrong doing to me!

 

You gotta supply the texts, hon'. You don't understand just how horrible sin is, if you did you would not make excuses for Judas and the like.

http://www.biblegate...:24&version=NIV

 

 

Matthew 26:24

 

New International Version (NIV)

²⁴ The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

 

 

I did not even notice you found the text. What Judas did was terrible. It's like those muslims who were blowing up the jewish children in their schools, terrible. Jesus did nothing to deserve what Judas did and Judas will feel the flames of hell for awhile but it was his CHOICE. He could have gone to heaven at the resurrection on the last day but he PREFERRED temporal things. He had Jesus right there teaching him too, how tragic .

 

 

 

Omniscience or intelligence, does not bode well for you. As I said before, if judas was needed for jesus to die. God damned a man to hell, eternally as far as I can see. And even temporary. More or less as far as I can see. Judas was driven to suicide by god (if you take the story to be reliable, which I am not convinced it is). After all, if god is omniscient, he knew what judas would do before he did it.

 

Judas was not needed, Jesus had plenty enemies! Prophecy tells that Jesus would be betrayed by a friend, God knew this but He did not cause it. The texts said that Satan entered Judas and Satan could not have entered Judas if Judas did not choose to stop abiding in Christ. God gave him over to his own CHOICES!

 

It dosnt matter if there was one available man or many, if it was in your plan for Jesus to die on the cross, and it was foretold in prophecy that he would be betrayed then it was determined some man would betray him. Rather it be Judas or another, he was preordained to go to hell for betraying Jesus.

 

You are just trying to deny the fact that there is a God that knows the future and this happened with the Judas situation: "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29

 

You are also trying to deny the fact that people have the freedom to choose their destiny.

 

This Dampens my argument how? I deny God because there is no reason to accept one, it seems you, more than me, are the one trying to lessen God to protect him.

 

You are denying choice. God does not need protecting, you do and that is why believers try with you.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Hundreds of billions more will burn. Why would you even use this as an argument?

 

 

Each would have had the ability to CHOOSE to burn or not. They just did not hunger and thirst after righteousness (some probably did initially but then they drew back and eventually became castaways). The people that fear hell are 1) The people that do not understand the gospel and therefore God's goodness and love.

2) People with PREDETERMINED hearts who would eventually have self-fulfilled prophecies.

[Thumbelina]

Take care.

Might doesn't make right. Killing people to get what you want, is the type of thing, a dictator type like say Chairmen Mao would do. If god is right for doing it, then you would have to say Mao is right because he is following god's moral example. Afterall authority alone means correctness in moral decisions right? Whatever happened to it being absurd to say "do as I say not as I do!" You would say its right for god to do but wrong for mao. But that is illogical. Either mass slaughter is wrong or it isn't. Authority can't change the correctness of something.

 

ITS ABSURD.

 

 

 

The people will be facing the consequences of their OWN actions. Revelation 20: 7-10 says the resurrected wicked will be deceived by Satan AGAIN and they would attack (well try to) the Holy City. They would have the SAME characters they had before they died; God will show the universe that these evil beings will NEVER change:

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Their CHERISHED sins would have caused them to be consumed.

Are you saying that people like Bin Laden should not be removed from society? Well picture a gazillion Bin Ladens and vicarious Bin Ladens, those will be the characters of people who reject God. You are speaking out of your lack of understanding of scripture Valk, there is much you are misunderstanding. However, it is nice that you are pondering these questions, many people do not question. They just go with the flow and don't think.

[Kaiser01]

Hundreds of billions more will burn. Why would you even use this as an argument?

 

 

Each would have had the ability to CHOOSE to burn or not. They just did not hunger and thirst after righteousness (some probably did initially but then they drew back and eventually became castaways). The people that fear hell are 1) The people that do not understand the gospel and therefore God's goodness and love.

2) People with PREDETERMINED hearts who would eventually have self-fulfilled prophecies.

 

BWBWBWGAGABha... Thumbalina you make me laugh... i think.

 

If im reading you correctly, are you claiming everyone had the same opportunity for salvation?

[Thumbelina]

So you're a frightened chickadee too? Yes, agree, Christianity misunderstood will do that. E.g. I saw two pastors shaking their heads and saying that that once saved, always saved doctrine should be called the doctrine of uncertainty. I hear it messes people up!

 

(Me)

Which is the 'right' understanding...I hear there are at least 30,000 sects of christianity that all believe something slightly different...oh wait, I forgot yours...make that 30,001.

 

 

(Thumb)

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

 

If you were the devil, how would you fool people into disobeying God? Would you tell them to form a church where the congregants kidnap babies and eat them?

 

(Me)

When you say, "christianity misunderstood" you mean "not as Thumbelina believes."

 

 

 

 

 

No, I keep on saying that scripture is not of any private interpretation. One should only follow Thumbelina as far as Thumbelina follows the bible. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Alas, if it is not rightly used one can make it say almost anything one wants. To prevent that, one needs to compare scripture with scripture and seeming contradictions would vanish.

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said: Yes, every believer is at a different stage in their delusion.

 

 

 

I'd say every non believer is at a different stage in their delusion. I hope none here committed the unpardonable sin.

 

 

 

midnightrider said: And every person who belongs to a different sect is instructed that theirs is the 'correct' delusion while all others are wrong, or at least a bit inferior. Hence, the booklets at the xian bookstore about why Mormonism is wrong, why Catholicism is wrong, why (pick a denomination) is wrong.

 

 

 

Why are you surprised? I keep seeing evidence that y'all don't know your bibles, hence your exodus out of Christianity.

Didn't Jesus and Paul etc. warn believers to NOT be deceived? Hello, the essence of deception is that the ones being deceived are NOT aware of it. To protect the believer, the bible says one must fortify oneself with the word. Deception does not come about as blatant rebellion.The bible says that the law (ten commandments) points out sin, therefore, churches that practice commandment breaking will have doctrines that cause people to be deceived (I'm not saying there aren't people there who are sincere, OK).

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said: Eat babies? You mean like god commands people to do in Deut 28:53? Or Jeremiah 19:9? Or what? I'm sure neither you nor I could see a church forming where congregants kidnap and eat babies in this day and age. That behavior would be illegal anyway. Do you see anything wrong with those two scriptures? God commanding people to eat babies? I couldnt command anyone to eat a baby. It just isn't right.

 

 

 

Dude, your lack of knowledge is showing again. Those are PROPHECIES! Don't you know they did come to pass during the siege in Jerusalem? Those people who said crucify, crucify to Jesus and or their descendants did exactly what was prophesied, they turned away from God, followed their OWN inclinations and ended up acting like animals. God gave them over to their vain ways. In other words, He permitted ( in Jewish culture it says God did it but it means He allowed it) them to do what they wanted and they faced the consequences of it. Btw the Christians escaped because they had faith/trust in God and His Word.

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said:What if god told you to eat your baby? ...

 

 

 

 

Um, babies are unclean meats. Besides I'm a total vegetarian and God wants us to get ready for heaven where no more blood will be shed. He tried to put the Israelites on a vegetarian diet when they were in the wilderness but they wanted the flesh pots of Egypt. Egypt is symbolic for the things of this world. I digress

 

 

 

 

midnightrider said: So is Westboro Baptist not at the 'same level of understanding' as you, Thumb? Or are they WRONG? Just wondering.

 

 

Westboro Baptist Church, such craziness. The atheists made me know about that, I had no idea. They (the Westboro people) have taken it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner and that is not the job of any human

[mymistake]

Hundreds of billions more will burn. Why would you even use this as an argument?

 

 

Each would have had the ability to CHOOSE to burn or not.

 

 

Well that is wonderful. In the afterlife God ask everyone is they want to burn. Everyone says no so God send nobody to hell. If all of that were true then maybe God really is love and a God of justice.

 

 

They just did not hunger and thirst after righteousness (some probably did initially but then they drew back and eventually became castaways).

 

False. You are making a generalization about billions of people. Some of them must have wanted righteousness that bad. Get a billion people together and some of them will fit any demographic.

 

The people that fear hell are 1) The people that do not understand the gospel and therefore God's goodness and love.

2) People with PREDETERMINED hearts who would eventually have self-fulfilled prophecies.

 

So there is no free will and only your private interpretation of the Bible is valid? Thumby you are all over the place with your delusions. Try to be consistent.

[Thumbelina]

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

 

We completely understand the absurd notions that you are trying to foist upon us.

 

 

 

 

I have not seen evidence for this. You used the right word, notion, with a wrong understanding of the law it would be hard to embrace God FULLY (N. B. I said fully, I did NOT say God was never embraced).

 

 

Embraced vs Fully Embraced. You are splitting hairs. "

 

 

 

 

 

No, I know the scripture and you don't. ( see Luke 10:27; Deut 6:5; Deut 30:6; Jer 24:7; and so forth and so on)

 

 

 

"I only loved god with 99.999999999999999% of my heart......then I fell away....if I had given that .00000000000001%, I would have never been able to leave him." Baloney. Keep grasping at straws, Thumb.

 

A little leaven leaventh the WHOLE lump. One bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Dead flies in the ointment sinks up the WHOLE thing. If one does not walk in the light then darkness comes upon them. ( I acknowledge that MANY people have had the wrong light and that skewed their concept of God's love). Eve committed a seemingly small sin but look at what happened to the planet as a result, it's the snowball effect.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and when did you start needing evidence? I thought you were a christian. Have faith that what we tell you is the truth. haha.

 

Of course Christians need SOME evidence, God did not make us to be mindless dummies! Faith has substance.

 

Hebrews 11:1 it says "Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Substance in Greek (Hypostasis) is also translated as understanding; other words that Hypostasis are translated to are need, faith,trust, belief, confidence. For me, I never wanted God because of a fear of hell, it was a moral decision., His rules appealed to my intellect. The people around me were not very moral and I was aversed to their lifestyle and I wanted something better. Apparently I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness and God is eager to manifest Himself when one hungers like that. It can be a process and can take a long time for some folks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You seem to think that if someone knows and accepts something like you know and accept it that it would be impossible for someone to reject god. ...

 

Look, I have seen evidence here that people don't even know what sin is. I have seen evidence that some think that the law started at Sinai.

 

I'm just stating what the bible says, which is: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

 

Biblical comprehension buttresses the believers' faith and as far as I can see there is nobody on here that seriously understood God's love and how atrocious transgression is. I think people genuinely do not understand and many are quite weary of seeming contradictions with the word and with believers too (though the latter may not be seeming contradictions).

[Thumbelina]

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

All you have to do is remember what the Gospel of John says.

What you ask for was the prayer made by Jesus himself.

 

John 17:20-21(NIV)

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

 

Complete unity of believers, which obviously includes sound doctrine, was to be displayed as a sign to the world that Jesus was sent by God.

The prayer failed, which discredits both Jesus and a multitude of Christian denominations.

 

 

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

However, Jesus' prayer will eventually be answered, there will be a latter rain but there will also be great apostacies just as the bible predicted.

[mymistake]

No, I keep on saying that scripture is not of any private interpretation. One should only follow Thumbelina as far as Thumbelina follows the bible.

 

That would mean your own private interpretation is wrong. In turn that would mean that most everything you say about God and the Bible is also wrong.

 

The Bible is the ultimate authority. Alas, if it is not rightly used one can make it say almost anything one wants.

 

Then there is no right way of using the Bible. An authority is not so vague that it can mean anything. The Bible is a set of claims. These claims need serious support before anybody takes them seriously and of course there is no objective evidence supporting the Bible's divine claims.

 

To prevent that, one needs to compare scripture with scripture and seeming contradictions would vanish.

 

Comparing scripture with scripture is how the contradictions become evident. That you delude yourself doesn't mean they vanished.

 

 

I'd say every non believer is at a different stage in their delusion. I hope none here committed the unpardonable sin.

 

We do, in fact, think critically. That is how we became ex-Christians.

 

Why are you surprised? I keep seeing evidence that y'all don't know your bibles, hence your exodus out of Christianity.

 

Yet another claim you can't back up. Many of us have studied the Bible for decades.

 

Didn't Jesus and Paul etc. warn believers to NOT be deceived? Hello, the essence of deception is that the ones being deceived are NOT aware of it. To protect the believer, the bible says one must fortify oneself with the word. Deception does not come about as blatant rebellion.The bible says that the law (ten commandments) points out sin, therefore, churches that practice commandment breaking will have doctrines that cause people to be deceived (I'm not saying there aren't people there who sincere, OK).

 

Every Christian breaks the 10 commandments, including you. You use the Lord's name for your own vanity. Also everybody covets because there is no way to stop thoughts. Thought crime is bone headed.

 

 

Dude, your lack of knowledge is showing again. Those are PROPHECIES! Don't you know they did come to pass during the siege in Jerusalem?

 

You project again. Prophesies are any vague passage that can be misconstrued after the fact.

 

 

Those people who said crucify, crucify to Jesus and or their descendants did exactly what was prophesied, they turned away from God, followed their OWN inclinations and ended up acting like animals.

 

It was a fiction. It never happened.

 

Westboro Baptist Church, such craziness. The atheists made me know about that, I had no idea. They (the Westboro people) have taken it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner and that is not the job of any human

 

No, they just pass judgement. It's not all that different that what all the other Christians do. Westboro just do it louder and in ruder, attention grabing situations. The judging part is just like when you come here and tell us that we don't understand the Bible or God and so on.

[mymistake]

Look, I have seen evidence here that people don't even know what sin is. I have seen evidence that some think that the law started at Sinai.

 

Prove it! (you won't of course)

 

Thumby you don't even know what evidence means. That is why you think there is evidence for your delusions but can't see the evidence for the real things in life that are diametrically opposed to your personal religion.

 

 

P.S. Faith is not evidence. That confusion is how this particular cult snares people. As long as they think their own belief is evidence they can't find a way out.

[Thumbelina]

But the orgasm of christianity fizzles after a while... ... .

 

 

 

 

 

The honeymoon does not always last. I complained to Jesus about that one time when I was missing it and right at that moment he led me to a portion of my study bible that says that the feeling of euphoria won't be there continually but He has made us promises that His word is sure and no one can pluck us from His hand once we choose Him.

 

 

 

 

And you're left with fear, guilt and shame.

 

Hmmm, so there are more frightened chickadees around here beside Centauri and Aman?

[Thumbelina]

.....

Who gave the law of the blood sacrifice to the Jew?

Was Cain a Jew, was Abraham a Jew? Did they sacrifice animals? God gave the sacrificial system to impress upon the minds of people that sin causes death and that though they deserved death, there would be a substitute for them.

It shows you are unfamiliar with the OT prophet Jeremiah who claimed the law of sacrifice was NEVER given to Moses. That pretty much makes your version of what a sacrifice is, totally made up bullshit. God never gave the 'sacrificial system' to anyone to 'impress upon' anyone's mind anything about sin. The sacifice system, as you call it, was totally invented by the Priests.

 

 

 

The sacrificial system was established as soon as sin occurred and God killed that animal to clothe Adam and Eve. As time progressed it got more elaborate so God could teach His children GREATER salvific lessons.

 

What do you think God claims when he says, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' about half a dozen times in the babble means?

 

It means that the people stupidly idolized the system instead of internalizing what the system prefigured.

 

 

 

The Ten Commandments are traditions taught as commandments, god never gave to Moses.

That means Christians teach tradition as a commandment of God which makes Christianity blasphemy to God for putting words in his mouth he never spoke. You are really going to Hell! Bye, bye.

 

The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger (TWICE). They are comprehensive, they sum up all the principles that are needed for good relationships AND they point out sin.

[mymistake]

The sacrificial system was established as soon as sin occurred and God killed that animal to clothe Adam and Eve. As time progressed it got more elaborate so God could teach His children GREATER salvific lessons.

 

Notice how that makes God barbaric? He has to hurt cute little innocent animals in order to let go of his anger and desire for revenge. But hurting animals only provided temporary relief. He needed a human sacrifice to go all the way.

 

The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger (TWICE). They are comprehensive, they sum up all the principles that are needed for good relationships AND they point out sin.

 

Ever wonder why God changed his mind from one set of 10 commandments and the other set of 10 commandments? Look who doesn't know her Bible.

 

Of course if the Bible was the word of men we wouldn't be surprised to see the two lists are different.