Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Thumbelina]

Every knee and tongue will confess, however, some will be genuinely repentant and some will just have a white flag surrender but their hearts will remain unchanged ( like Judas, he confessed Christ and was sorry for the consequences of His actions but he was not sorry for his duplicity).

The phrase concerning knees bowing and tongues confessing is about paying homage to Yahweh, who is a singular savior and deity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I'm curious ... . Can I ask you something?

Who is the us referring to in this verse?: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The "us" is God's court, the majestic plural.

 

What the heck does that mean?

It would be a bit like how jews interpret genesis, as to god speaking to his angels. That at least is my guess as I understand it.

 

Angels are created beings and are not Gods though.

[Thumbelina]

Every knee and tongue will confess, however, some will be genuinely repentant and some will just have a white flag surrender but their hearts will remain unchanged ( like Judas, he confessed Christ and was sorry for the consequences of His actions but he was not sorry for his duplicity).

The phrase concerning knees bowing and tongues confessing is about paying homage to Yahweh, who is a singular savior and deity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I'm curious ... . Can I ask you something?

Who is the us referring to in this verse?: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The "us" is God's court, the majestic plural.

 

What the heck does that mean?

Jewish explanation:

http://jewsforjudais...nity&Itemid=501

 

Christian non-Trinitarian explanation:

http://www.wrestedsc...enesis3v22.html

 

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out

[Guest Valk0010]

Every knee and tongue will confess, however, some will be genuinely repentant and some will just have a white flag surrender but their hearts will remain unchanged ( like Judas, he confessed Christ and was sorry for the consequences of His actions but he was not sorry for his duplicity).

The phrase concerning knees bowing and tongues confessing is about paying homage to Yahweh, who is a singular savior and deity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I'm curious ... . Can I ask you something?

Who is the us referring to in this verse?: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The "us" is God's court, the majestic plural.

 

What the heck does that mean?

It would be a bit like how jews interpret genesis, as to god speaking to his angels. That at least is my guess as I understand it.

 

Angels are created beings and are not Gods though.

Well, if as they often say with the cosmological argument, that out of nothing nothing comes. Then angels would have to be apart of god. Also angels usually can't defy god.

 

Also as it was explained to me, the word us was used to refer to the entirety of the kingdom.

 

My source for that is, the website run by Rabbi Tovia Singer. Google his name and you should get the website.

[Thumbelina]

Every knee and tongue will confess, however, some will be genuinely repentant and some will just have a white flag surrender but their hearts will remain unchanged ( like Judas, he confessed Christ and was sorry for the consequences of His actions but he was not sorry for his duplicity).

The phrase concerning knees bowing and tongues confessing is about paying homage to Yahweh, who is a singular savior and deity.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

Isa 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

 

I'm curious ... . Can I ask you something?

Who is the us referring to in this verse?: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The "us" is God's court, the majestic plural.

 

What the heck does that mean?

It would be a bit like how jews interpret genesis, as to god speaking to his angels. That at least is my guess as I understand it.

 

Angels are created beings and are not Gods though.

Well, if as they often say with the cosmological argument, that out of nothing nothing comes. Then angels would have to be apart of god. Also angels usually can't defy god.

 

Also as it was explained to me, the word us was used to refer to the entirety of the kingdom.

 

My source for that is, the website run by Rabbi Tovia Singer. Google his name and you should get the website.

 

 

 

Angels have freedom of choice too, just like any other created being. How would angels know what evil is unless it's experientially? God knows what evil is because He is omniscient. Created beings will know what evil/sin is only because 1) They committed sin 2) They see others do it maybe for a long time, for awhile.

Sin is anything outside of God's will, that's the perk of being Holy, Omnipotent, Omniscient etc.

 

You're into Rabbi Tovia too, are you Centauri's alter ego? It will explain why I think you two are sweetie pies

[Guest Valk0010]

Ahh so you believe that angels could fall away from god even today? Didn't know that. The theology of angels as far as I understand was they had no free will and that is why supposedly god had to create us.

 

But even if they didn't they are still apart of the kingdom, hence my point still stands.

 

However one wonders, how could angels know evil and not fall away or at least en mass and we know evil and fall away en masse?

[Kaiser01]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

[Thumbelina]

Ahh so you believe that angels could fall away from god even today? Didn't know that.

 

 

 

I believe they have the choice to but they won't. The bible says that 1/3 of the angels (that puts them to be maybe in the millions +) fell away and will eventually burn up in hell and be destroyed. The rest remained and will remain loyal to God.

 

 

The theology of angels as far as I understand was they had no free will and that is why supposedly god had to create us.

 

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

 

But even if they didn't they are still apart of the kingdom, hence my point still stands.

 

However one wonders, how could angels know evil and not fall away or at least en mass and we know evil and fall away en masse?

 

 

A LOT of angels did fall away and the loyal ones are observing what is going on on this planet. They are seeing who is right, Christ or Satan? We obtained a selfish nature from Adam and Eve. Angels weren't born. God says wickedness was found in Satan. Satan used His freedom of choice and wanted to over reach, he wanted to be God with his crazy self. Eve was deceived by Satan and Adam chose to follow Eve cuz he was whipped and didn't TRUST/have faith in God ; he did not think God could fix the situation.

[Thumbelina]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

[Guest Valk0010]

About the Judas thing, it disgusts me in the same sort of way that I am disgusted when I find are government sacrificing lives of people to accomplish strategic goals. A common example of that according to some was Lee Harvey Oswald shooting kennedy and then getting killed by Jack Ruby. I find that, if the conspiracy theories about the involvement of the CIA in that to be true, to be a disgusting thing to do.

 

Judas in this situation was a divine lee harvey oswald. Its disgusting for the same reasons. Makes it hard for me to see god as moral when he stoops to the same tactics that we know full well are wrong in more earthly suitations.

 

About the angel thing. I was just taught that angels have no free will which is why god wanted us. And so god wanted beings with free will, and so we were created.

 

The point I made about the angels thing was, if this evidence was so good to convince angels why couldn't we get the same evidence. If it worked for some of them, it would have most likely worked for all of us.

[centauri]

Confirmation for your instructions was received by what method?

 

Oh, I dunno, why else would I be drawn to put up with a lot of craziness and some insults? It must be love, right? God loves you and does not want to to continue on that destructive path.

OK, got it. You're drawn by something you can't explain but you attribute it to benevolent "love".

Of course, that explanation can work both ways.

People here put up with and respond to your craziness and authoritarian lectures because they love you and don't want to see you destroyed by superstition.

[centauri]

God says wickedness was found in Satan.

Not according to the Old Testament.

 

Satan used His freedom of choice and wanted to over reach, he wanted to be God with his crazy self.

That would fit Jesus better than it would Satan.

Jesus claimed that he would be seated as an equal to God (Matt 26:64).

Jesus claimed that he had ALL authority in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18).

Jesus declared that nobody could come to God except through him (John 14:6-7).

 

There is nothing in the Old Testament which states Satan ever made any claims like these or usurped power for himself.

 

Eve was deceived by Satan and Adam chose to follow Eve cuz he was whipped and didn't TRUST/have faith in God ; he did not think God could fix the situation.

Please provide the chapter and verse from Genesis that says Eve was deceived by Satan.

Until you do, your claim is based on Christian mythology, not Hebrew scripture.

[centauri]

His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin.

You have no way to know how much free choice Judas had.

Judas was doomed ahead of time because someone had to fulfill scripture.

 

John 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

The script was already written and the actor had to fulfill it.

Since scripture shows that God will manipulate people as he sees fit, you have no way to know if Judas had any free choice in this matter.

 

God determined in advance what was to happen in this case as well:

 

Acts 4:27-28(NLT)

“In fact, this has happened here in this very city! For Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate the governor, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were all united against Jesus, your holy servant, whom you anointed.

But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will.

 

God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE.

You have no firm basis for saying "God just let it happen".

There is plenty of evidence that God will actively manipulate human behavior if it pleases him to do so.

As the scripture clearly states: "according to your will", not the will of the individual.

[Kaiser01]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

[Thumbelina]

About the Judas thing, it disgusts me in the same sort of way that I am disgusted when I find are government sacrificing lives of people to accomplish strategic goals. A common example of that according to some was Lee Harvey Oswald shooting kennedy and then getting killed by Jack Ruby. I find that, if the conspiracy theories about the involvement of the CIA in that to be true, to be a disgusting thing to do.

 

Judas in this situation was a divine lee harvey oswald. Its disgusting for the same reasons. Makes it hard for me to see god as moral when he stoops to the same tactics that we know full well are wrong in more earthly suitations.

 

About the angel thing. I was just taught that angels have no free will which is why god wanted us. And so god wanted beings with free will, and so we were created.

 

The point I made about the angels thing was, if this evidence was so good to convince angels why couldn't we get the same evidence. If it worked for some of them, it would have most likely worked for all of us.

 

 

 

 

If angels are not free then how come 1/3 of them decided to try to usurp God's authority? How come they had war (a war of words) in heaven? How come they were cast out? God wanted a race of beings that were made in His image. Humans can love each other and we can create others in our image too. Satan HATES that, he wants to create and beings on this planet can reproduce and he can't . Sin began in heaven, right where God's glory was. It happened in His majestic and glorious presence so that does not mean that humans won't do the same thing. Actually, humans did do basically the same thing. God came and tabernacled ( see Ex 25:8) with the Israelites, He spent time camping with them. But many just wanted to go back to Egypt or live the type of life that was not holy. Also, Adam and Eve had similar exposure to God, just as the angels did and they still chose to become ungrateful and ended up sinning. We have it easier because we have the biblical account that warns us not to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors.

Pain and suffering is not fun, I know, but ultimately it is for the greater good and your analogies cannot work for created beings cannot resurrect people. Only God can do that.

[Thumbelina]

People here put up with and respond to your craziness and authoritarian lectures because they love you and don't want to see you destroyed by superstition.

 

Or it could be misery likes company? I don't want the "chum is fum" life that y'all decided to embrace, now that IS depressing!

 

 

P.S. You really, really, really, really, really should let Jesus put some spittle and clay in those eyes of yours. You're kinda entertaining though I hope you get to make it to heaven so you can oooh and ahhh and eat your crazy words (I'm referring to you trying to discredit the bible)!

[mymistake]

If angels are not free then how come 1/3 of them decided to try to usurp God's authority?

 

The same reason that the other reindeer teased Rudolf. Each story's author needed a plot device.

 

How come they had war (a war of words) in heaven? How come they were cast out?

 

Because a story isn't interesting without events. That is why events happen in stories like the one you quoted about god and angels.

 

God wanted a race of beings that were made in His image.

 

If that case shouldn't we be invisible?

[Thumbelina]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

 

 

 

 

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible. God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

[Kaiser01]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

 

 

 

 

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible. God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

 

He needed someone to sin according to his plan, regardless if it were Judas or Joe Shmo. Either God has no divine plan and people are just doing what they want without his consent or he needs them to commit sin to carry it out. Wow, i think it is interesting how a genius God needs to give an ultimatum to people, "believe in me or die," in order to forgive.

[mymistake]

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible.

 

You sure painted yourself into a corner there. If nobody choose to sin then God's convoluted plan would have failed.

 

God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

 

If it is in the Bible then you can delude yourself into accepting it.

[Thumbelina]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

 

 

 

 

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible. God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

 

He needed someone to sin according to his plan, regardless if it were Judas or Joe Shmo. Either God has no divine plan and people are just doing what they want without his consent or he needs them to commit sin to carry it out.

 

 

 

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

Wow, i think it is interesting how a genius God needs to give an ultimatum to people, "believe in me or die," in order to forgive.

 

 

As usual, you don't know the gospel: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

God made the provision for the WORLD. That provision is like a check for 5 billion dollars. He gave it to each person but each person has to decide to cash it in to get benefit. Sadly, many people will just leave the check in the draw. Eventually their own sins will cause them to burn. If they had no sin (ONLY by being covered by Christ) then they would be able to withstand God's presence (eternal fire) and they would not burn.

[mymistake]

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is!

 

You contradict yourself. God's storybook plan would have failed if nobody betrayed Christ.

 

I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept.

 

Says the one who believes in magical fruit, talking snakes, Adam and Eve.

 

If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

Or God of the story book could have not put the tree in the garden in the first place. Then everybody would go to heaven and there would be no suffering.

 

Wow, i think it is interesting how a genius God needs to give an ultimatum to people, "believe in me or die," in order to forgive.

 

 

As usual, you don't know the gospel: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

 

But why did Christ need to die for us? Why couldn't God just forgive without all that drama and acrobatics? Why couldn't God forgive the way I forgive people?

 

The answer is of course because the people who invented God couldn't imagine someone who would forgive without a blood sacrifice. They were primative barbarians.

 

God made the provision for the WORLD. That provision is like a check for 5 billion dollars. He gave it to each person but each person has to decide to cash it in to get benefit. Sadly, many people will just leave the check in the draw. Eventually their own sins will cause them to burn. If they had no sin (ONLY by being covered by Christ) then they would be able to withstand God's presence (eternal fire) and they would not burn.

 

Go back and look at the first covenant God made. Abraham do what I say and I will make you rich! There was no love for the world in that covenant. God was giving land to Abraham that belonged to somebody else and that other population would get genocide out of the deal. The Bible is a series of different religions pieced together in a string of older religions being replaced by newer versions. And it continues - that is how Christianity has diverged so much to this day.

[Kaiser01]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

 

 

 

 

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible. God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

 

He needed someone to sin according to his plan, regardless if it were Judas or Joe Shmo. Either God has no divine plan and people are just doing what they want without his consent or he needs them to commit sin to carry it out.

 

 

 

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

Wow, i think it is interesting how a genius God needs to give an ultimatum to people, "believe in me or die," in order to forgive.

 

 

As usual, you don't know the gospel: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

God made the provision for the WORLD. That provision is like a check for 5 billion dollars. He gave it to each person but each person has to decide to cash it in to get benefit. Sadly, many people will just leave the check in the draw. Eventually their own sins will cause them to burn. If they had no sin (ONLY by being covered by Christ) then they would be able to withstand God's presence (eternal fire) and they would not burn.

 

IF EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS ACCORDING TO GODS DIVINE PLAN, THEN HOW IS JUDAS SINNING NOT PART OF THE PLAN? OR DOES YOUR GOD HAVE NO PLAN?

[Guest Valk0010]

About the Judas thing, it disgusts me in the same sort of way that I am disgusted when I find are government sacrificing lives of people to accomplish strategic goals. A common example of that according to some was Lee Harvey Oswald shooting kennedy and then getting killed by Jack Ruby. I find that, if the conspiracy theories about the involvement of the CIA in that to be true, to be a disgusting thing to do.

 

Judas in this situation was a divine lee harvey oswald. Its disgusting for the same reasons. Makes it hard for me to see god as moral when he stoops to the same tactics that we know full well are wrong in more earthly suitations.

 

About the angel thing. I was just taught that angels have no free will which is why god wanted us. And so god wanted beings with free will, and so we were created.

 

The point I made about the angels thing was, if this evidence was so good to convince angels why couldn't we get the same evidence. If it worked for some of them, it would have most likely worked for all of us.

 

 

 

 

If angels are not free then how come 1/3 of them decided to try to usurp God's authority? How come they had war (a war of words) in heaven? How come they were cast out? God wanted a race of beings that were made in His image. Humans can love each other and we can create others in our image too. Satan HATES that, he wants to create and beings on this planet can reproduce and he can't . Sin began in heaven, right where God's glory was. It happened in His majestic and glorious presence so that does not mean that humans won't do the same thing. Actually, humans did do basically the same thing. God came and tabernacled ( see Ex 25:8) with the Israelites, He spent time camping with them. But many just wanted to go back to Egypt or live the type of life that was not holy. Also, Adam and Eve had similar exposure to God, just as the angels did and they still chose to become ungrateful and ended up sinning. We have it easier because we have the biblical account that warns us not to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors.

Pain and suffering is not fun, I know, but ultimately it is for the greater good and your analogies cannot work for created beings cannot resurrect people. Only God can do that.

It does work because, its special pleading to say it doesn't. Either those kinds of behaviors are wrong or there not. God does not logically equal correctness. And my point is there is a logical issue if it did. That is the point of this entire thread. It seems to me, actions themselves can't violate the law of non-contradiction as well. They are either wrong or right. God power can't change that.

 

And, how dumb you got to be!. To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!! Only deluded person could not see that kind of a god is a man made invention. He is both stupid and immoral.

[Thumbelina]

I think its interesting that in one of your post you mentioned Judas as going to hell, he was an esintial part of Gods plan, without him there could be no cross but why is he getting punished then?

 

Same with all the others who have done evil. If its all part of Gods plan for evil to be committed why are they punished for it?

 

 

Have you considered that God foreknows everything (He's OMNISCIENT) and therefore makes plans to meet WHATEVER situation will arise? Some time in eternity past, God decided that Jesus was going to die for us WHEN sin arose and thus cause MANY humans to be redeemed. God deals with the now and the not yet, God's contingency plan was formulated even before this planet was even created (see 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:23;Rom 8:29; Eph 1:4)

 

 

 

God did/does have a plan for sin/evil but not in the way you stated it. His plan came about because He permits freedom of choice. 1 Cor 10:11 gives insight as to why God permitted sin: 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

He allows beings who follow His EXPRESSED will ( What He WANTS to happen; He wants everyone to be happy and obedient) to be compared and contrasted to beings who play their part in His PERMISSIVE will ( He commands them not to sin, He KNOWS they will CHOOSE not to obey but He lets them do it anyway). Pharaoh, the poster boy for atheism ( And Pharaoh said, Who [is] the LORD, that I should obey his voice ...), is an example of such a one ( [Edit] Ha ha, I just got a scripture to show this thanks to what Valkie wrote in another thread; it's Romans 9: 17. In the book of Exodus we keep seeing it written that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that God made Pharaoh For His own glory. That is exactly what was happening with evil, God is allowing the behavior of the sheep and the goats to be seen ( e.g. Moses = sheep, Pharaoh = goat). God has innumerable INTELLIGENT creatures to manage and He gives ALL of them freedom of choice and He wants them to INTELLECTUALLY see what sin does and how far it can go ( remember a little leaven, leavens the whole lump?). He wants peace for EVERYONE which is why He has His commandments. He is allowing ( not causing, they disobeyed on their OWN volition) some to break it to DEMONSTRATE why His commandments are necessary. After sin is OVER, NOBODY would ever CHOOSE to partake in it again. God would not have had to force obedience from anyone, they would intellectually see why God cannot permit sin/Law breaking/commandment transgressing, perpetually.

 

 

P.S. Valk is really pondering these questions, it is my wish that God manifests Himself to him in some way and he gets some of his logical questions answered. God leaves room for doubt, after all FAITH is needed to enter heaven, that eliminates the timeservers. God does not want what Satan did to be repeated and therefore He is making sure it won't happen.

 

Your first part of the post completely contradicts the second part, if God defines what will take place, based on his divine plan, then how can Judas choose to not to betray Jesus? If Judas could defy Gods ultimate plan and not commit the act of betrayal, wouldn't this make him greater than God? Or would this make God limited in his scope of the future and power to influence it?

 

How can Judas have the freedom to choose if his path is set in stone for Gods, "Glory?"

 

 

It's not a contradiction. God still admonishes people He knows will not listen; He takes the trouble anyway. His will was for Judas to love Him and thus be obedient but His plan was that since Judas won't be obedient He'll let him enjoy a brief life and still let others see the lengths people who CHOOSE sin will go to. He wants us and other beings to learn from other people's mistakes. That's what got me into Christianity, some of the people I saw around me weren't very moral and they hurt others and it gave me an aversion to their sin. Judas was free to choose life but he just didn't do it, God did not force him to do that, to sin. God just let it happen for the purposes of teaching about His law and therefore HIs LOVE. He had to explain evil/sin to people who have no concept of it. Try telling a gaga goo baby not to put its finger in a socket. You'll have to slap the baby's hand a little to let it know not to do it, right? (Grown ups are not babies though) God had/has to let us go through sin/pain so we can realize it's not beneficial. He breaks our leg (lets us feel pain and die the first death) so we won't break our necks ( go to hell and die the second death and never exist again).

 

God did not want him to sin, but needed him too? How can God not want something to sin but at the same time make it part of his plan for him to sin? What does this say about Gods free will and his own ability to choose?

 

 

 

 

I did not say God needed him to sin. If he didn't sin then someone else would have, he just happened to be the example used in the bible. God uses His foreknowledge to carry out His purposes while at the same time encouraging humans to repent and granting them freedom to choose to worship Him or not. God is a genius! If you read the bible without a bad attitude you'd see it too

 

He needed someone to sin according to his plan, regardless if it were Judas or Joe Shmo. Either God has no divine plan and people are just doing what they want without his consent or he needs them to commit sin to carry it out.

 

 

 

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

Wow, i think it is interesting how a genius God needs to give an ultimatum to people, "believe in me or die," in order to forgive.

 

 

As usual, you don't know the gospel: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

God made the provision for the WORLD. That provision is like a check for 5 billion dollars. He gave it to each person but each person has to decide to cash it in to get benefit. Sadly, many people will just leave the check in the draw. Eventually their own sins will cause them to burn. If they had no sin (ONLY by being covered by Christ) then they would be able to withstand God's presence (eternal fire) and they would not burn.

 

IF EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD IS ACCORDING TO GODS DIVINE PLAN, THEN HOW IS JUDAS SINNING NOT PART OF THE PLAN? OR DOES YOUR GOD HAVE NO PLAN?

 

 

 

You're yelling?

 

Take a deep breath and pay attention. God works out His plan because He KNOWS beforehand what WILL transpire. Look at Genesis for example, before sin even happened on this planet God used a partially negative statement. He said " It IS NOT GOOD for man to be alone. God's contingency plan was at work even then. He was teaching us that we are social just like Him and to have happiness we need others to love and to be loved by them (see rhesus monkey experiment). He made man and wife so when adultery occurred we can identify with Him when He is betrayed by His creatures. God is a genius!

 

 

Everything in the world is not God's ULTIMATE will though, why do you think Jesus says to pray " Thy will be done". God's PERMISSIVE will is at play but the bad things is not what He wants ultimately. He is eventually working out everything for the ULTIMATE good of billions upon billions upon billions and then some, of His creatures. This statement was so true: "Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." John 11:50. Jesus took our place so the entire human race could be saved but we aren't saved en masse, each cognizant individual has to make their OWN choice to ACCEPT the FREE salvation that we are offered.

 

We CANNOT fight with God and win, He always knows what is best. E.g. God told Hezekiah it was time for Him to die, instead of listening to God Hezekiah complained- like the atheists- and begged for God to spare his life. Alas as a result of not dying when God told him to, Hezekiah eventually caused Israel to go into deep apostasy. God knows best. His goal is NOT to make us happy in this life (though that can be nice) but to get us to live ETERNALLY. We may not always have happiness in this life but a believer who ABIDES in Christ can have joy unspeakable.

[Thumbelina]

Or God of the story book could have not put the tree in the garden in the first place. Then everybody would go to heaven and there would be no suffering.

 

 

Who says God did not put the tree in other worlds in order to test them? The parable says that out of 100 sheep 99 obeyed and only one renegade sheep disobeyed.

 

 

But why did Christ need to die for us? Why couldn't God just forgive without all that drama and acrobatics? Why couldn't God forgive the way I forgive people?

 

You've been OVERLY sheltered haven't you? Have you never come across an ungrateful so and so who just wants to take, take, take? However, if someone gives (sacrifices) a life more people will be inclined to be grateful if they really understand that it's for love.

 

Go back and look at the first covenant God made. Abraham do what I say and I will make you rich! There was no love for the world in that covenant. God was giving land to Abraham that belonged to somebody else and that other population would get genocide out of the deal.

 

Salvific lessons are sure lost on you, aren't they? You're being TOO literal. God wanted to teach spiritual lessons which He did succeed in doing. God owns this planet, stupid Satan tricked Adam and Eve out of it. Most folk follow Satan but God wants this world (eventually the New Earth) to be for the Saints (the redeemed). If one loves God they will want to obey Him and once one is willing, God will give one the POWER to overcome. Love is the motive for everything. Keeping God's commandments is for our benefit. God feels Divine Pathos.