Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Thumbelina]

To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!!

 

 

What if it was the creating of this planet that stirred up Lucifer's envy? God is not supposed to create then?

[Guest Valk0010]

To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!!

 

 

What if it was the creating of this planet that stirred up Lucifer's envy? God is not supposed to create then?

Well you have yet to sell me on hell not being eternal according to christian theology. So I would have to answer yes to that. If this is the best he can do, and he is omni benevolent as far as I can see its logically inconsistent to say he did.

 

Ohh and power doesn't not equal correctness. So my analogy of judas being like lee harvey oswald still stands.

[Kaiser01]

Do you not see the logical holes in your argument so large i can drive a truck through them? If everything works out for Gods plan then Judas sinning was part of that plan, its that simple. I dont quite see how you think things happen without Gods will when he is all knowing. Before he creates the universe he knows exactly what causes are going to cause what effects, and what effects are going to cause. He sets the universe on a road of causality that stars with the initial start of the universe, eventually a chain of causes and effects would lead to Judas sinning, God knew this from the beginning, God set Judas on the path of sin, directly or indirectly. He may not need Judas to sin in the same way we need water to live, thats obvious, but he wanted him too, he created him too. Your free will of choice under an all knowing God is an illusion. Judas sinning was planned, just like very other sin ever committed. You God could show the world truth, he could show us we need other and show us the problems of sin without forcing others to commit it then burn for an eternity by his will.

[mymistake]

Who says God did not put the tree in other worlds in order to test them?

 

The Bible doesn't mention other worlds. Are you making things up as you go along?

 

 

You've been OVERLY sheltered haven't you?

 

When you lose in debate you change the topic to insults.

 

 

Have you never come across an ungrateful so and so who just wants to take, take, take? However, if someone gives (sacrifices) a life more people will be inclined to be grateful if they really understand that it's for love.

 

That does not follow. More people will be sickened by the barbaric concept of human sacrifice.

 

Go back and look at the first covenant God made. Abraham do what I say and I will make you rich! There was no love for the world in that covenant. God was giving land to Abraham that belonged to somebody else and that other population would get genocide out of the deal.

 

Salvific lessons are sure lost on you, aren't they? You're being TOO literal. God wanted to teach spiritual lessons which He did succeed in doing. God owns this planet, stupid Satan tricked Adam and Eve out of it. Most folk follow Satan but God wants this world (eventually the New Earth) to be for the Saints (the redeemed). If one loves God they will want to obey Him and once one is willing, God will give one the POWER to overcome. Love is the motive for everything. Keeping God's commandments is for our benefit. God feels Divine Pathos.

 

LOL

 

You accuse me of being too literal and then launch into a monolog about Adam, Eve, Satan, God. Maybe you should include Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

 

My point remains. The covenant with Abraham did not show love for all the people who had to die so Abraham would get his riches. That was the foundation of your religion. God was going to make Abraham rich. It was not nobel or wonderful or loving the world. Why didn't God use his power to simply move people or not allow them to settle there in the first place? Because that would require a real miracle! Biblegod started out as a justification for genocide. Humans invented God so they wouldn't feel so bad about killing and stealing from their neighbors.

[Thumbelina]

Do you not see the logical holes in your argument so large i can drive a truck through them? If everything works out for Gods plan then Judas sinning was part of that plan, its that simple. I dont quite see how you think things happen without Gods will when he is all knowing. Before he creates the universe he knows exactly what causes are going to cause what effects, and what effects are going to cause. He sets the universe on a road of causality that stars with the initial start of the universe, eventually a chain of causes and effects would lead to Judas sinning, God knew this from the beginning, God set Judas on the path of sin, directly or indirectly. He may not need Judas to sin in the same way we need water to live, thats obvious, but he wanted him too, he created him too. Your free will of choice under an all knowing God is an illusion. Judas sinning was planned, just like very other sin ever committed. You God could show the world truth, he could show us we need other and show us the problems of sin without forcing others to commit it then burn for an eternity by his will.

 

 

 

 

 

Oy vey. Analogy time: You have two devout Christians who have a daughter, they are loving toward each other and toward their daughter. They raise her in the church and they teach her about Jesus' love. The young lady was taught that fornication is not right for it can lead to heart ache. Eventually the young lady succumbed to peer pressure from other people who fill their minds with vain things and she eventually got pregnant before she finished school. Her parents are hurt and disappointed of course, they had her future mapped out, education, job, husband and then kids (This was their ULTIMATE and expressed will). However, they love their baby girl and they decided long ago that if she did mess up they will be gracious like God and show her compassion. They did cry cuz she got knocked up (the guy did not stick around btw) but they DECIDED to have compassion on her. They threw a shower for her, they helped out where they could without enabling her. Eventually the girl had the baby, she did school part time and worked part time. Mom was able to help with the babysitting. That was the parents' PERMISSIVE will at work. The girl ended up getting rebaptized, doing well in school, got a career and married an honorable Christian man. The plan was delayed but the results worked out good after all because of GRACE! Other Christians who would generally shun their children for daring to disobey them would look at this girl and her parents' example and learn to show grace also. The girl's parents did NOT plan for her to get knocked up. They expressed to her what was right but they planned that if she CHOOSES not to obey they will be gracious to her.

Sins were PERMITTED, not planned. God ALLOWED them to TEACH us! Sin came about because in loving relationships people MUST have the ability to say no otherwise it will be rape!

 

You are drunk (spiritually) on Babylon's wine, God will not burn people for eternity, that's ridiculous!

[Thumbelina]

To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!!

 

 

What if it was the creating of this planet that stirred up Lucifer's envy? God is not supposed to create then?

Well you have yet to sell me on hell not being eternal according to christian theology.

 

You drank Babylon's wine too and its effects are long lasting.

 

So I would have to answer yes to that. If this is the best he can do, and he is omni benevolent as far as I can see its logically inconsistent to say he did.

 

Ohh and power doesn't not equal correctness. So my analogy of judas being like lee harvey oswald still stands.

 

 

You need to spend some quiet time with your bible and pray for God to show you. You seem like a sincere fellow and God is eager to show you but dude, you are tossed to and fro by different winds of doctrine and that's why it seems confusing. Is it logical to burn finite beings with finite lives, infinitely? Is it logical for a God who is just, to do that?

[Kaiser01]

Do you not see the logical holes in your argument so large i can drive a truck through them? If everything works out for Gods plan then Judas sinning was part of that plan, its that simple. I dont quite see how you think things happen without Gods will when he is all knowing. Before he creates the universe he knows exactly what causes are going to cause what effects, and what effects are going to cause. He sets the universe on a road of causality that stars with the initial start of the universe, eventually a chain of causes and effects would lead to Judas sinning, God knew this from the beginning, God set Judas on the path of sin, directly or indirectly. He may not need Judas to sin in the same way we need water to live, thats obvious, but he wanted him too, he created him too. Your free will of choice under an all knowing God is an illusion. Judas sinning was planned, just like very other sin ever committed. You God could show the world truth, he could show us we need other and show us the problems of sin without forcing others to commit it then burn for an eternity by his will.

 

 

 

 

 

Oy vey. Analogy time: You have two devout Christians who have a daughter, they are loving toward each other and toward their daughter. They raise her in the church and they teach her about Jesus' love. The young lady was taught that fornication is not right for it can lead to heart ache. Eventually the young lady succumbed to peer pressure from other people who fill their minds with vain things and she eventually got pregnant before she finished school. Her parents are hurt and disappointed of course, they had her future mapped out, education, job, husband and then kids (This was their ULTIMATE and expressed will). However, they love their baby girl and they decided long ago that if she did mess up they will be gracious like God and show her compassion. They did cry cuz she got knocked up (the guy did not stick around btw) but they DECIDED to have compassion on her. They threw a shower for her, they helped out where they could without enabling her. Eventually the girl had the baby, she did school part time and worked part time. Mom was able to help with the babysitting. That was the parents' PERMISSIVE will at work. The girl ended up getting rebaptized, doing well in school, got a career and married an honorable Christian man. The plan was delayed but the results worked out good after all because of GRACE! Other Christians who would generally shun their children for daring to disobey them would look at this girl and her parents' example and learn to show grace also. The girl's parents did NOT plan for her to get knocked up. They expressed to her what was right but they planned that if she CHOOSES not to obey they will be gracious to her.

Sins were PERMITTED, not planned. God ALLOWED them to TEACH us! Sin came about because in loving relationships people MUST have the ability to say no otherwise it will be rape!

 

You are drunk (spiritually) on Babylon's wine, God will not burn people for eternity, that's ridiculous!

 

The parents are not omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent( according to your position i think). That is the difference. It is almost as if your are trying to limit God, acting as if he cannot see the future of ones action before he creates them, before he makes them part of the ultimate plan. A God who is all knowing cannot have two different wills, he can only have one because he knows everything and controls everything at once.

[centauri]

People here put up with and respond to your craziness and authoritarian lectures because they love you and don't want to see you destroyed by superstition.

 

Or it could be misery likes company? I don't want the "chum is fum" life that y'all decided to embrace, now that IS depressing!

 

 

P.S. You really, really, really, really, really should let Jesus put some spittle and clay in those eyes of yours. You're kinda entertaining though I hope you get to make it to heaven so you can oooh and ahhh and eat your crazy words (I'm referring to you trying to discredit the bible)!

But you discredit the Bible all by yourself.

You constantly ignore anything from the Bible when it doesn't conform to your imaginings.

Hopefully, lurkers will take note and see the hypocrisy that this religion exhibits.

[Guest Valk0010]

To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!!

 

 

What if it was the creating of this planet that stirred up Lucifer's envy? God is not supposed to create then?

Well you have yet to sell me on hell not being eternal according to christian theology.

 

You drank Babylon's wine too and its effects are long lasting.

 

So I would have to answer yes to that. If this is the best he can do, and he is omni benevolent as far as I can see its logically inconsistent to say he did.

 

Ohh and power doesn't not equal correctness. So my analogy of judas being like lee harvey oswald still stands.

 

 

You need to spend some quiet time with your bible and pray for God to show you. You seem like a sincere fellow and God is eager to show you but dude, you are tossed to and fro by different winds of doctrine and that's why it seems confusing. Is it logical to burn finite beings with finite lives, infinitely? Is it logical for a God who is just, to do that?

I think this about as closet thing to agreeance we have every had.

 

Praying god to show me is confirmation bias waiting to happen.

 

I am into logic not doctrine. Hence things like the analogy to oswald.

[centauri]

Jesus took our place so the entire human race could be saved but we aren't saved en masse, each cognizant individual has to make their OWN choice to ACCEPT the FREE salvation that we are offered.

Those that are predestined don't need to choose, their status was assured beforehand.

There is no "free" salvation, unless you are predestined.

If you aren't predestined, then you have to believe, maintain belief, confess, repent, be baptized, and do works of charity.

These are all works that the individual must perform.

Salvation isn't free when works are required in order to obtain it.

[midniterider]

Gen 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

That tree was/is beautiful, they ate from it. The angels had to block it to stop 'em from living any longer, it would seem that if they kept eating they would have kept living.

 

 

Yeah, god said they may eat freely of any tree. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY LITERALLY ATE FROM EVERY TREE. Again, you assume facts. We're done. Agree to Disagree.

 

I know you see dogmatism but it's because there are interlocking doctrines that you are just not privy to that strongly implies (though not explicitly stated ) that they ate from the tree of life. That's why the bible says one needs spiritual ears to get insight into it's teachings. Using secular methodologies all by themselves to interpret scripture just won't cut it.

Of course you are allowed to disagree! My God is a God of choice, it shows that from the beginning, the two trees offered choice. Thanks Chicky for having a discussion with me. I actually got a lioness to chat! It's usually the lions that are always yammerin'

 

Thumbelina is privy to secret doctrines (shit she makes up). Because people here at Ex-c have refuted the baloney known as the bible she has to create the secret doctrine that only one who 'believes' gets access to. Of course that secret doctrine is the emotional delusion of xianity which we have all previously experienced as devoted believers. Spiritual ears means allowing yourself to believe stupid drivel from the church and the bible. It also means making up whatever baloney you can think of to protect your imaginary being. Why do xians get so bent out of shape when you deny their god? Xians go into a rage yet god does nothing. Why not let god handle his own arguments?

 

See? You're ignoring what Jesus said in Mark 4:11, that's why you can't get the gospel, you ignore key texts. God forbid but put midnightrider on a little dingy in the middle of the ocean and a violent storm arises. Midnightrider is yammerin' when on the forums but at that time he's gonna pray. God forbid, picture midnightrider missing out on heaven and seeing the universe up close and personal. Some Christians are worried about atheist nutters and the influence they may have on their loved ones. This life is TOO short to be it.

 

Pray? Nah. I prefer to cast spells.

[midniterider]

Far from being frightened, I find it depressing ...

 

 

C'mon, admit it, you is frightened. Yes fear can bring on depression. You know God describes Himself as a mother hen than longs to protect His chicks. You are a wayward chickadee and God is yearning to take away that fear and protect you.

 

Frightened of something non-existent? lol. Xianity doesn't take away fear. Xianity gives you fear. Fear, guilt, and shame.

 

 

So you're a frightened chickadee too? Yes, agree, Christianity misunderstood will do that. E.g. I saw two pastors shaking their heads and saying that that once saved, always saved doctrine should be called the doctrine of uncertainty. I hear it messes people up!

 

Which is the 'right' understanding...I hear there are at least 30,000 sects of christianity that all believe something slightly different...oh wait, I forgot yours...make that 30,001.

[midniterider]

 

 

For the umpteenth time, God did not need anybody to sin (disobey His OWN commandments), that IS what sin is! I have yet to come across someone on here who understands this concept. If humans did not sin maybe God would have let the devils devolve into such a way that they can fight each other and let them demonstrate to the universe what sin/lawlessness is about. If no being at all had sinned then ONLY God would know what evil is. Sin came about because we had FREEDOM to choose to love God or not!

 

 

We completely understand the absurd notions that you are trying to foist upon us. At one time we believed these absurd notions with all our heart. But then one day we realized these notions, your notions, were lies and we rejected them. Christianity is lies.

[Guest Valk0010]

Didn't it say about judas, that he should have wished he never been born or something along those lines? Sounds like wrong doing to me!

[midniterider]

 

 

The parents are not omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent( according to your position i think). That is the difference. It is almost as if your are trying to limit God, acting as if he cannot see the future of ones action before he creates them, before he makes them part of the ultimate plan. A God who is all knowing cannot have two different wills, he can only have one because he knows everything and controls everything at once.

 

The god of xian apologetics has many conflicting wills, plans and doctrine, each one arising as needed for Thumbelina's immediate needs and later burying itself in a quagmire of self-contradictory multiplicity. Yeah, baby, that's my new signature line!

[Guest Valk0010]

The parents are not omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent( according to your position i think). That is the difference. It is almost as if your are trying to limit God, acting as if he cannot see the future of ones action before he creates them, before he makes them part of the ultimate plan. A God who is all knowing cannot have two different wills, he can only have one because he knows everything and controls everything at once.

 

The god of xian apologetics has many conflicting wills, plans and doctrine, each one arising as needed for Thumbelina's immediate needs and later burying itself in a quagmire of self-contradictory multiplicity. Yeah, baby, that's my new signature line!

And they say god is simple..........................

[Guest Valk0010]

Even temporarily, how the hell could anyone believe something like this is true.

 

A apt description of the bible god i have to say.

 

 

I hope the analogy is not lost on people.

[hereticzero]

God is the author of evil because He obviously created everything. He™ allows evil to exist in order to demonstrate the goodness of righteousness. How can you know what is good unless you first identify what is evil? The greater the evil that is overcome, the greater is the righteous manner in which it was defeated.

[hereticzero]

.....

Who gave the law of the blood sacrifice to the Jew?

[Thumbelina]

Do you not see the logical holes in your argument so large i can drive a truck through them? If everything works out for Gods plan then Judas sinning was part of that plan, its that simple. I dont quite see how you think things happen without Gods will when he is all knowing. Before he creates the universe he knows exactly what causes are going to cause what effects, and what effects are going to cause. He sets the universe on a road of causality that stars with the initial start of the universe, eventually a chain of causes and effects would lead to Judas sinning, God knew this from the beginning, God set Judas on the path of sin, directly or indirectly. He may not need Judas to sin in the same way we need water to live, thats obvious, but he wanted him too, he created him too. Your free will of choice under an all knowing God is an illusion. Judas sinning was planned, just like very other sin ever committed. You God could show the world truth, he could show us we need other and show us the problems of sin without forcing others to commit it then burn for an eternity by his will.

 

 

 

 

 

Oy vey. Analogy time: You have two devout Christians who have a daughter, they are loving toward each other and toward their daughter. They raise her in the church and they teach her about Jesus' love. The young lady was taught that fornication is not right for it can lead to heart ache. Eventually the young lady succumbed to peer pressure from other people who fill their minds with vain things and she eventually got pregnant before she finished school. Her parents are hurt and disappointed of course, they had her future mapped out, education, job, husband and then kids (This was their ULTIMATE and expressed will). However, they love their baby girl and they decided long ago that if she did mess up they will be gracious like God and show her compassion. They did cry cuz she got knocked up (the guy did not stick around btw) but they DECIDED to have compassion on her. They threw a shower for her, they helped out where they could without enabling her. Eventually the girl had the baby, she did school part time and worked part time. Mom was able to help with the babysitting. That was the parents' PERMISSIVE will at work. The girl ended up getting rebaptized, doing well in school, got a career and married an honorable Christian man. The plan was delayed but the results worked out good after all because of GRACE! Other Christians who would generally shun their children for daring to disobey them would look at this girl and her parents' example and learn to show grace also. The girl's parents did NOT plan for her to get knocked up. They expressed to her what was right but they planned that if she CHOOSES not to obey they will be gracious to her.

Sins were PERMITTED, not planned. God ALLOWED them to TEACH us! Sin came about because in loving relationships people MUST have the ability to say no otherwise it will be rape!

 

You are drunk (spiritually) on Babylon's wine, God will not burn people for eternity, that's ridiculous!

 

The parents are not omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent( according to your position i think).

 

 

Of course not, only God has those attributes. Duh, analogies can't hold a candle to God but it can help us relate to Him.

 

 

That is the difference. It is almost as if your are trying to limit God, acting as if he cannot see the future of ones action before he creates them, before he makes them part of the ultimate plan.

 

You are NOT reading what I wrote, you are doing the Babylonish thing of bringing your preconceived ideas into the discussion. God knows EVERYTHING, I keep saying it. He KNOWS who will be saved but He is NOT making them choose Him. He uses His foreknowledge to shape certain events but ultimately people have to choose.

 

 

 

God can be limited (even though He knows the outcome; God is TEACHING us, everything is intertwined): "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Ps 78:41

 

^

It is all tied in with ones FREEDOM to choose. Unbelief which turns into disbelief is terrible and it ties God's hands.

 

 

A God who is all knowing cannot have two different wills, he can only have one because he knows everything and controls everything at once.

 

Of course He can. God has choices. He is good/gracious/merciful as well as just and those two aspects of His nature causes Him to put up with our hides or to punish said hides. Like an earthly parent, God can and does practice tough love!

[Thumbelina]

People here put up with and respond to your craziness and authoritarian lectures because they love you and don't want to see you destroyed by superstition.

 

Or it could be misery likes company? I don't want the "chum is fum" life that y'all decided to embrace, now that IS depressing!

 

 

P.S. You really, really, really, really, really should let Jesus put some spittle and clay in those eyes of yours. You're kinda entertaining though I hope you get to make it to heaven so you can oooh and ahhh and eat your crazy words (I'm referring to you trying to discredit the bible)!

But you discredit the Bible all by yourself.

 

 

I do not! I have a gospel.

 

You constantly ignore anything from the Bible when it doesn't conform to your imaginings.

 

I know you do, ya chicken. I don't you know, decide to lose the fear and God will help you see.

 

Hopefully, lurkers will take note and see the hypocrisy that this religion exhibits.

 

God has sheep amongst the lurkers and they will eventually hear His voice

[Thumbelina]

To know everything about say quantum physics and to know how the future will end. And yet dumb enough to think. Hey I failed with my angels, so I should try again with people even less powerful!!!!

 

 

What if it was the creating of this planet that stirred up Lucifer's envy? God is not supposed to create then?

Well you have yet to sell me on hell not being eternal according to christian theology.

 

You drank Babylon's wine too and its effects are long lasting.

 

So I would have to answer yes to that. If this is the best he can do, and he is omni benevolent as far as I can see its logically inconsistent to say he did.

 

Ohh and power doesn't not equal correctness. So my analogy of judas being like lee harvey oswald still stands.

 

 

You need to spend some quiet time with your bible and pray for God to show you. You seem like a sincere fellow and God is eager to show you but dude, you are tossed to and fro by different winds of doctrine and that's why it seems confusing. Is it logical to burn finite beings with finite lives, infinitely? Is it logical for a God who is just, to do that?

I think this about as closet thing to agreeance we have every had.

 

Praying god to show me is confirmation bias waiting to happen.

 

I am into logic not doctrine. Hence things like the analogy to oswald.

 

 

Jesus replied, "You don't understand now what I am doing, but someday you will." John 13:7

[mymistake]

The parents are not omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent( according to your position i think).

 

Of course not, only God has those attributes. Duh, analogies can't hold a candle to God but it can help us relate to Him.

 

Biblegod is not omnibenevolent for Biblegod created evil, fools people and sends them to hell. And Santa Clause is omniscient to a degree.

 

 

 

 

 

God can be limited . . .

 

Then God is not all powerful.

[Thumbelina]

Jesus took our place so the entire human race could be saved but we aren't saved en masse, each cognizant individual has to make their OWN choice to ACCEPT the FREE salvation that we are offered.

Those that are predestined don't need to choose, their status was assured beforehand.

There is no "free" salvation, unless you are predestined.

If you aren't predestined, then you have to believe, maintain belief, confess, repent, be baptized, and do works of charity.

These are all works that the individual must perform.

Salvation isn't free when works are required in order to obtain it.

 

I keep on explainin' this to you and you keep on not listenin'. I hope you do see one day, you're kinda nice, it'll be a shame for you to lose on on salvation

[Thumbelina]

Far from being frightened, I find it depressing ...

 

 

C'mon, admit it, you is frightened. Yes fear can bring on depression. You know God describes Himself as a mother hen than longs to protect His chicks. You are a wayward chickadee and God is yearning to take away that fear and protect you.

 

Frightened of something non-existent? lol. Xianity doesn't take away fear. Xianity gives you fear. Fear, guilt, and shame.

 

 

So you're a frightened chickadee too? Yes, agree, Christianity misunderstood will do that. E.g. I saw two pastors shaking their heads and saying that that once saved, always saved doctrine should be called the doctrine of uncertainty. I hear it messes people up!

 

Which is the 'right' understanding...I hear there are at least 30,000 sects of christianity that all believe something slightly different...oh wait, I forgot yours...make that 30,001.

 

 

Please show me in the bible where it says that the majority of believers would adhere to sound doctrine? Please show me where it says that all believers will be at the SAME level at the SAME time most of the time?

 

If you were the devil, how would you fool people into disobeying God? Would you tell them to form a church where the congregants kidnap babies and eat them?