Pre Fall Of Satan, Pre Creation And Post Creation Evil Show That The Bible God Is Self Refuting. (Comments Criticism, Please!)

[Realist]

 

Of course I don't really believe any of that stuff.  I do not believe in either the Devil or Hell.

 

But this was part of the reasoning I developed when ridding my mind of this belief in hell (only part of the reasoning - there are plenty of other reasons to not believe in hell)

 

 

I know but that still doesn't mean it ain't so.

 

So Thumbelina, you saying so makes it true! Amazing! You are sooo special! Have yah got a head to use???

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

BAA, I love you in an agape sense and not QUITE in a phileo sense (it's possible though and I do somewhat, I told you I liked you as you had made me laugh when I first came here) as I do not know you and you feel some sort of anger or annoyance toward me as you always seem to not like my writing style.That of course is your choice and since you told me that, I try to refrain from answering you in the style you don't like, though I did not always succeed.

 

 

I'm not bothered at all by your writing style Thumbelina - as you well know. 

 

This false claim (that it's HOW you write) is just your way of dodging the real issue here.  The real reason why I warn others about you has nothing to do with your style of writing and everything to do with the mismatch between your words and your actions.  You say that you love people and then you treat them un-lovingly.

 

Jesus explicitly warned that the only way to know who His true followers are was by their spiritual fruit.  Anyone can claim to follow the Law, but their obedience to God will show itself in the agreement between their words and their actions, i.e. in the spiritual fruit they display.

 

From a Christian perspective, love fulfils the law (the ten commandments). The last 6 commandments deal with man's relationship to man (generic term). I show love to you in this sense: Commandment #5 You are not my parent so I don't have to honor you as in a parent-child relationship by obeying all of your commands. #6 I did not murder you and I do not hate you, I try to leave you alone as you express great dislike for my message and even the style I write in. #7 I did not commit adultery on you as I am not married to you. #8 I did not steal anything from you. #9 I did not bare false witness against you, I address you based on the evidence of your actions. #10 I do not covet anything you have as I am a Christian and therefore believe that Christ will supply all my needs.

Exactly Thumbelina!

I address you on the evidence of your actions.  You claim to be loving, but your actions do not confirm that.  If you did bear good spiritual fruit, we'd see that.  But you don't and we don't.  When we do, then we'll be able to trust you.  Until your words match your actions, no trust is possible.

 

You seem to have a misunderstanding about love, love does not entail giving in to the whims and wishes of man. The Christian knows that God sometimes does not give us what we ask, for he sees the big picture. It's like the 8 year old who wanted a baby sister and her parents were unable --or maybe unwilling-- to have any more children and the child just wants a baby in the house so she prays " Dear Jesus, could you please make me pregnant so I can have a baby to love?" The child is sincere but will it be conducive for God to grant her prayer? Well, same way Christians may have to deal with others too. Christians are disciples of Christ and when looking at the bible one sees that when the Pharisees were hounding Jesus in order to trap Him, he did not answer their questions. Jesus even had to rebuke them in some instances. Paul was a disciple and when that demon possessed girl was following him and trying to confuse everybody, Paul rebuked her, did he not? The bible does not teach believers to acquiesce to every man in every instance, it in fact says that the Christian ought to obey God rather than man.

Yes Thumbelina.  Exactly!

You, as the Christian, should discipline yourself, obey God and bring forth good spiritual fruit.  You know what's being asked of you - but you just refuse to do it, instead invoking the Law to justify yourself.  

Fruit takes precedence over the Law.  Any part of it or all of it.

Now, you seem to want me to change MY personality and MY feelings or impressions about unbelievers/disbelievers.

 

Not true!

The way in which you should interact with anyone has been quite clearly laid out for you by Jesus himself.  I'm simply and persistently drawing your attention to this and will continue to do so, for as long as it takes.  As long as your words don't match up to your deeds and you display bad fruit, I'll be the metaphorical thorn in your flesh that never goes away.  I'm not doing this for your benefit, but to protect the vulnerable from your bad fruit.

I can't change you one iota, Thumbelina.

The willingness to change has to come from you. 

If you never choose to change, so be it.

 

It so happens I find many to be interesting, if not intriguing and I LIKE engaging them. I happen to find the personalities of some to be quite jocular, some have a sarcastic wit that I seem to like and some actually respond positively to my brand of humor; they can actually bandy words with me. Some HATE it when I write the way I do, one guy-whom I found to be quite intriguing-- asked me why I wrote like that, to which I basically told him 'Man, you're old timish, get with the times, it's common these days to write like that!' It's in articles and in the media e.g. Rollin' With Zack , Bitchin' Kitchen etc. It just so happens we eventually ended up getting along even though we have different beliefs. He accepted that I can CHOOSE to write how I want and I realized he did not like it so I did not write that way to him. I have CHOICES and when I joined this site I never got the impression that it was operating under a dictatorial regime with a collective dictating every single thing non ex Christians do/write. As a matter of fact, Dave seemed pretty cool to me and later I thought some members were more or less tolerant; I did not see them as religionists (as in, 'my way or the highway, no reasoning or discussion necessary!').

As I said before, all this talk about how you write is just your flimsy excuse for your hard-hearted actions not matching up to your 'loving' words.

 

 

 

 

Also, I reserve the right to sometimes mock and scoff at atheistic beliefs and to tease atheists who don't MIND me doing so. Elijah scoffed at the pagans and their flaccid gods. He basically asked them 'Where are your gods, did they go take a piss?!' I tend not to mock the pagans but atheistic beliefs (non beliefs) are fair game as that is the nuttiest one. I reserve the right to disclose or reveal anything about my personal or religious life that I deem fit to disclose or reveal. Also, the Christian is sometimes IMPRESSED to do or not do certain things, so yes, Christians may obey impressions and depend on those to respond or not respond to skeptics. I also did reveal certain things about myself to certain people online and in real life and what they did with the info was to use it against me and like crabs in a barrel they used what I disclosed to compete with me. When that happens my introverted self just retreats into my shell. I must learn to rely on the HS to give me impressions.

Q. How can Thumbelina possibly know who does or doesn't mind having the piss taken out of them?

 

A. Thumbelina's trump card. 

The unquestionable (and invisible, inaudible and undetectable) authority of the Holy Spook.

 

Nice move! 

Whoever Thumbelina's rude to has no comeback - because her actions have been okayed by God himself. 

A fine example of her using God's seal of approval to justify her selfish, un-loving behavior.

 

 

I don't mean you harm BAA, let's just agree to disagree please.

 

 

It's not me you're disagreeing with, Thumbelina.

You're wilfully and stubbornly disobeying your God's commands... and you know it.

 

As Centauri's pointed out...  we're one year further down the line ...and nothing's changed. 

 

Nor will anything change here until you do.  

If you think you can grind us down, outlast us, face us down or make any headway at all - think again.

If the definition of stupidity is the repeated failure to learn from experience, then please go ahead and define yourself in those terms Thumbelina.

 

BAA.

[centauri]

 

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

Christian answers aren't facts, they're opinions.

There is nothing in the Old Testament that says anything about Satan committing a sin.

Satan as a reprobate sinner is Christian mythology.

 

 

Satan is God's employee, right? He's the manager of Hell.

 

Yes, he's an employee, serving as man's accuser in God's court and he also serves to test people.

The Christian version then morphs him into the "Devil" who, depending on which myth one takes seriously, he is either destroyed or reigns in hell.

It's another example of how Christianity revises characters in the Old Testament to fit their preferences.

It's a complete alteration of the theology in the Old Testament.

This has been pointed out to Thumbelina dozens of times over the years, but she doesn't care.

To Christians, the "Old" Testament is a rag whose only purpose is to serve as a launching pad for their theology.

Anything useful as propaganda from it will be used as "proof" for Jesus and anything that contradicts Christianity is discarded like an old shoe.

It was blatant hypocrisy like this that finally made me realize it was nothing more than a pious farce.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: So where did the evil come from?

 

The bible calls sin the mystery of iniquity. It also said that Satan is the originator of evil. Sin is pointless, there's no excuse for it.

 

 

 

 

Yes Thumbelina, another year goes by and you're still using  a "Rayskidude" quote as a signature line.

It would be hard to imagine a more hypocritical stance than his.

It accuses people here of doing exactly what he did.

In any case, the Old Testament states that God created evil.

It says absolutely nothing about Satan rebelling, creating evil, or engaging in sinful behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

Beloved, I know that was your way of greeting me

 

God is NOT the author of sin, just calamity --->

 

 

 

 

 

http://creation.com/slipshod-logic-in-creation-for-kids  ----->

 

 

 

No actual evil in the finished creation

 

Evil is not a ‘thing’ in itself, even though it is real. Rather, evil is the privation of some good that something ought to have. Murder is a removal of a good human life. Adultery is a privation of a good marriage. Good is fundamental and can exist in itself; evil cannot exist in itself. It is always a parasite on good.

 

When God created moral beings, there was no actual evil. In fact, evil is not a ‘thing’ in itself, even though it is real. Rather, evil is the privation of some good that something ought to have, as Augustine pointed out … . Murder is a removal of a good human life. Adultery is a privation of a good marriage. Good is fundamental and can exist in itself; evil cannot exist in itself. It is always a parasite on good. For example, a wound cannot exist without a body, and the very idea of a wound presupposes the concept of a healthy body. Blindness in a human is a physical evil, because humans are supposed to see (but oysters are not, so blindness is not an evil for oysters). Also, evil actions are done to achieve things like wealth, power and sexual gratification, which the evildoer finds ‘good’ (meaning ‘pleasing’). Evil things are not done as ends in themselves, but good things are. Now, since evil is not a thing, God did not create evil [although He does create calamity as He has a right to do, and this is the correct understanding of Isaiah 45:7].

 

 

 

AMOS 3:6 shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?-This is the explanation of the preceding similes: God is the Author of all the calamities which come upon you, and which are foretold by His prophets. The evil of sin is from ourselves; the evil of trouble is from God, whoever be the instruments.

 

 

 

^

 

God cursed us an allowed us to experience pain, so yes, he's the author of pain.

 

[Thumbelina]

 

"The bible does not say that hell is eternal (eternal burning of unrepentant sinners), that is a myth. Hell also does not exist yet. There are no souls in the place of burning YET. People are in hell as in the grave, that is the first death. Hell is when God will make a full end of sinners and sin and that will be the second death. After that God will comfort the grieving, He will cause all tears to be dry and there will be no more sorrow or pain or death. Death, the enemy, will be destroyed."

 

What happens to people's souls when they are 'in the grave'? When does hell begin to exist?

 

The dead are resting in their graves(either as dust or skeletons), they don't have their 5 senses and they can't think so they aren't doing anything atm. God has a record of everyone's life in books according to Revelation. Revelation 20 describes a period of time when the wicked dead will be given back their MORTAL bodies (God puts them back together, it's not an innate ) to receive their reward (punishment). Hell will exist after the period of time when God and the Saints examine the books together and the Saints agree with God that His ways are just and true. The Holy City (New Jerusalem) will come down out of heaven and land on the earth, the Saints will be inside the Holy city and the rebellious will be outside with Satan and his imps and they will try to overthrow the city (Rev 20:9) and that's when God will reveal His full glory to then and hellfire will occur.

[Thumbelina]

Wow. Thumby's back retreading her ancient mythological fable horseshit again.

 

Here's my shocked face.

 

: O

 

Wake the fuck up, girl. It's all bullshit. And I think you know that, even if its only on a subconscious level.

 

I missed you too Daddymac

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina,

 

Can Satan repent?  Would God forgive him?

 

 

 

 

No Satan cannot repent, he committed the unpardonable sin (being so utterly callused that repentance is not desired). God can't forgive him as the unpardonable sin is a sin where ultimately one does not want forgiveness for sins. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin which a person is UNWILLING to repent of.

 

 

I thought God could do whatever he wanted. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Omnipotence comes with some inherent limitations. God (as God) cannot die,  He cannot lie, be deceived, be unholy etc.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Of course I don't really believe any of that stuff.  I do not believe in either the Devil or Hell.

 

But this was part of the reasoning I developed when ridding my mind of this belief in hell (only part of the reasoning - there are plenty of other reasons to not believe in hell)

 

 

I know but that still doesn't mean it ain't so.

 

So Thumbelina, you saying so makes it true! Amazing! You are sooo special! Have yah got a head to use???

 

 

 

 

Hallo Mr. ... Haven't spoken to you since last year. Last time we spoke you had a partner in crime in tow ( Hereticzero) in order to bug me; I like him.

 

No, not my saying of it makes it true. The Word says so. I'm a fool for Christ, didn't you know?

[Ravenstar]

Thank you for sharing your interpretation.. I was wondering about that.

 

 

So..  so.. hmm.. the wicked dead (skeletons or whatever) are resurrected to be killed in hell? How long do they get to be resurrected for? I'm not sure I understand this...

 

What about the righteous dead.. do they get resurrected too?

[Thumbelina]

It can be hard to understand for those not familiar with it.

The bible doesn't give a specific time that I know of, of how long they will be resurrected for but it's long enough for them to form teams to try to attack the Holy City.

 

The righteous dead would have been resurrected and also those who were alive at the second coming, would have been caught up with Christ in the air 1000 years prior (If you look at Revelation 20-21, it says some of this) to the resurrection of the unrighteous. The bible says those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed.

[centauri]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evolution_beyond: So where did the evil come from?

 

The bible calls sin the mystery of iniquity. It also said that Satan is the originator of evil. Sin is pointless, there's no excuse for it.

 

 

 

 

Yes Thumbelina, another year goes by and you're still using  a "Rayskidude" quote as a signature line.

It would be hard to imagine a more hypocritical stance than his.

It accuses people here of doing exactly what he did.

In any case, the Old Testament states that God created evil.

It says absolutely nothing about Satan rebelling, creating evil, or engaging in sinful behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

 

God is NOT the author of sin, just calamity --->

 

 

 

 

 

http://creation.com/slipshod-logic-in-creation-for-kids  ----->

 

 

 

No actual evil in the finished creation

 

Evil is not a ‘thing’ in itself, even though it is real. Rather, evil is the privation of some good that something ought to have. Murder is a removal of a good human life. Adultery is a privation of a good marriage. Good is fundamental and can exist in itself; evil cannot exist in itself. It is always a parasite on good.

 

When God created moral beings, there was no actual evil. In fact, evil is not a ‘thing’ in itself, even though it is real. Rather, evil is the privation of some good that something ought to have, as Augustine pointed out … . Murder is a removal of a good human life. Adultery is a privation of a good marriage. Good is fundamental and can exist in itself; evil cannot exist in itself. It is always a parasite on good. For example, a wound cannot exist without a body, and the very idea of a wound presupposes the concept of a healthy body. Blindness in a human is a physical evil, because humans are supposed to see (but oysters are not, so blindness is not an evil for oysters). Also, evil actions are done to achieve things like wealth, power and sexual gratification, which the evildoer finds ‘good’ (meaning ‘pleasing’). Evil things are not done as ends in themselves, but good things are. Now, since evil is not a thing, God did not create evil [although He does create calamity as He has a right to do, and this is the correct understanding of Isaiah 45:7].

 

 

 

AMOS 3:6 shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?-This is the explanation of the preceding similes: God is the Author of all the calamities which come upon you, and which are foretold by His prophets. The evil of sin is from ourselves; the evil of trouble is from God, whoever be the instruments.

 

 

 

^

 

God cursed us an allowed us to experience pain, so yes, he's the author of pain.

 

 

Well, we're going to plow this field again I see.

Your apologetic is exactly the same as presented many times before and it does not explain how evil was created or where it originated.

It attempts to dance around the problem by defining evil as merely the absence of good, real but not a "thing".

You have not established that evil cannot exist by itself, whereas you claim good does.

If evil is defined as an absence of good then good can be defined as an absence of evil.

If evil is real as you claim, then it was brought into the universal equation by a creator, regardless of your denial that it's a "thing".

Isa 45:7 clearly states that God created evil.

The word "ra" includes ethical evil or moral evil, not simply disaster or calamity.

 

You have not provided anything from the Hebrew scriptures that says Satan was the origination of evil.

On the other hand there is clear evidence that God was the creator of evil, including ethical or moral evil. You deny this of course, because Christian doctrine cannot tolerate a God that is responsible for anything but good.

Evil somehow magically spawns itself, perhaps by spontaneous generation.

There is no scriptural basis from the Hebrew scriptures for your proclamation that Satan is the originator of evil.

 

The Bible also states that Gods works are perfect, which lands you on the horns of another dilemma.

A perfectly created being cannot by definition sin.

A perfect being cannot by definition perform an imperfect act.

As soon as it does, it proves it wasn't made perfect to begin with.

So either sin is not an imperfection or God's works are not perfect as the Bible says.

[Astreja]

Revelation 20 describes a period of time when the wicked dead will be given back their MORTAL bodies (God puts them back together, it's not an innate )...

 

Okay, that's just plain silly, Thumbelina.  Your god brings people back from the dead, along with all their faults, for the specific purpose of punishing them?

 

That's sick; no, that goes far, far beyond sick.  The moral thing to do would be to let the "wicked dead" remain dead, not bring them back to life for the express purpose of inflicting pain upon them.

[mymistake]

 

Revelation 20 describes a period of time when the wicked dead will be given back their MORTAL bodies (God puts them back together, it's not an innate )...

 

Okay, that's just plain silly, Thumbelina.  Your god brings people back from the dead, along with all their faults, for the specific purpose of punishing them?

 

That's sick; no, that goes far, far beyond sick.  The moral thing to do would be to let the "wicked dead" remain dead, not bring them back to life for the express purpose of inflicting pain upon them.

 

 

God is playing a video game and we are the AI "bad guys" that God gets to eliminate.  After he beats the game what is left to do but reset it and play again?  Welcome to Sim Universe.

[Ravenstar]

Thank you.. I understand it better now.

 

Okay.. that's all kinds of creepy. You get to die once... then you get reanimated just to be killed again. (umm.. death is the wages of sin - but it seems one death isn't enough for god)

 

It seems to me, in this interpretation, that humans are being used to put on a cosmic morality play for the rest of creation... ie: to 'show' the angels or whatever else exists that god is good, and just. According to this view, the heavenly hosts must have some reservations about gods' fairness or there wouldn't really be any question or need for this test of humanity.(?)  Very interesting. And quite illogical considering the omniscience and omnipotence of this god. If it planned it this way.. wow, cruel. Could it not have just given the knowledge of the outcome to his creations and avoided the pain, suffering and death of billions?, instead of having it acted out on sentient beings? Doesn't god know who will or will not 'go bad?' - why create them in the first place? When you consider a being that is not constrained by physical laws or time this plan makes absolutely no sense whatsoever OR we are just sick entertainment for this supreme being.

 

AND think about this... unfortunately the 'actors' (human beings) have no say in whether to actually be a part of this play, (no one asks to be born as far as I know - because that would presuppose an existence before physical life.. and suggests an immortal soul) and the 'ending' is real, not make believe. nice.

 

And why oh why does the creator of the entire UNIVERSE have such an obsession with blood (and human/animal sacrifice)? Seems a bit, umm.. petty for something that could create galaxies and black holes and such.

 

Also.. if Jesus was resurrected bodily, where is he now? If he is in heaven does that mean heaven is a physical place? How exactly does that work?

[Evolution_beyond]

Christianity - the zombie religion

[Evolution_beyond]

Raise them up, to kill them again - like Resident Evil or something

[Thumbelina]

Centauri said: Well, we're going to plow this field again I see.

 

 

 

No. I'm not doing this with you because well, I told you last time --->

@ Centauri

Cite the bible OT text that say the irreverent and censorious (who are very rebellious) will comprehend spiritual things. Cite the OT passage that say that people who use disingenuous practices of pitting different beliefs against each other by using google university as research, while ignoring the biblical stipulation of yielding to God and comparing scripture with scripture, will understand the bible. ...

 

 

 

Your apologetic is exactly the same as presented many times before and it does not explain how evil was created or where it originated.It attempts to dance around the problem by defining evil as merely the absence of good, real but not a "thing".You have not established that evil cannot exist by itself, whereas you claim good does.If evil is defined as an absence of good then good can be defined as an absence of evil.If evil is real as you claim, then it was brought into the universal equation by a creator, regardless of your denial that it's a "thing".Isa 45:7 clearly states that God created evil.The word "ra" includes ethical evil or moral evil, not simply disaster or calamity. You have not provided anything from the Hebrew scriptures that says Satan was the origination of evil.On the other hand there is clear evidence that God was the creator of evil, including ethical or moral evil. You deny this of course, because Christian doctrine cannot tolerate a God that is responsible for anything but good.Evil somehow magically spawns itself, perhaps by spontaneous generation.There is no scriptural basis from the Hebrew scriptures for your proclamation that Satan is the originator of evil. The Bible also states that Gods works are perfect, which lands you on the horns of another dilemma.A perfectly created being cannot by definition sin.A perfect being cannot by definition perform an imperfect act.As soon as it does, it proves it wasn't made perfect to begin with.So either sin is not an imperfection or God's works are not perfect as the Bible says.

 

 

I tried MANY times to explain certain concepts to you, I gave analogies and you're just not getting it. The bible calls sin (transgression of the law) the mystery of iniquity. Skeptics want to know what the MYSTERY of iniquity is, HELLLLLOOOOO, it's a mystery, what does mystery mean? Sin is totally pointless, there is absolutely NO justification for it. You want a justification and it ain't gonna happen. I go by what the bible says and you, who do not have faith in God and believe the bible, are trying to explain it, don't you see something is wrong with this picture? God"s works would have been imperfect if He did not make us with the ability to choose, to choose disobeying Him.

 

You know I heard that spunky Australian pastor whom I got the tummy rot thing from, say that some members from the church had a delegate from a primitive society that came to the U.S.A. to represent their church. He said that when the delegate went back he reported that there were sooooo many huts (houses or buildings) in the U.S.A. He told them that they had huts on top of huts on top of huts that go all the way up to the sky and there is a little hut attached to the side that goes up and down the tall hut in order to carry the people. The primitive people listened to this report and they looked at the guy and then a man said 'Next time we're not going to send a liar to represent our church.' Yeah, yeah I know you're gonna say that the buildings are tangible etc. but the believer who experienced God KNOWS that He's there and His words are true, the believer has the EVIDENCE of things not seen (it's hard to explain to people who have not experienced this). The Word really opens up ones understanding when one learns how to study it for oneself ( I did NOT say by oneself, other humans can teach also but their teaching needs to be compared to the bible). There  is scriptural basis for the proclamation of Satan as the originator of SIN, you don't know how to study the bible for yourself and without requesting help from the HS, you're basically just spinning a top in mud, you won't get the results you want.

 

 

 

*Props chin on hands and staring intently at you*

Look, Chickadee, I think you're scared stiff. I think you're protecting your little heart so much that you have a fortress built around it hence your R2D2ish responses. You hear God calling 'here chick, chick, chick' and you think that he wants to wring your neck but no, He wants to gather you under His wings and feed you with the living bread. Ah man, I like you, have for a long time; hmmmm, you have a certain je ne sais quoi, though you tend to be R2D2ish in your responses, there's something about you that seems sweet, vulnerable? Ah, I don't know what it is, all I know is I get a pitter pat feeling in my heart when I think of the character Centauri on Ex Christian.net. I truly hope one day you tear open those eyes and tell Jesus 'Please put some spittle in here!' You then won't be so scared.

[Thumbelina]

 

Revelation 20 describes a period of time when the wicked dead will be given back their MORTAL bodies (God puts them back together, it's not an innate )...

 

Okay, that's just plain silly, Thumbelina.  Your god brings people back from the dead, along with all their faults, for the specific purpose of punishing them?

 

That's sick; no, that goes far, far beyond sick.  The moral thing to do would be to let the "wicked dead" remain dead, not bring them back to life for the express purpose of inflicting pain upon them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings Astreja, hope the new year has been good to you.

Um, last year we agreed that we would basically just exchange greetings because you find certain biblical topics too disturbing. I see you're asking a question on a disturbing topic for unbelievers or for people (who might still be Christian or religious) who have a false understanding of God and His justice. In case your questioning was just spontaneous I'll answer in the following paragraph or two. If you don't want to read it, because it can be disturbing to some, please just don't read past the following lines, OK?

 

 

 

 

 

.....................................................

 

 

 

God is a God of JUSTICE. As I told midniterider, God CANNOT lie. The bible says that hell will occur, God cannot lie about that, what He says will happen, WILL happen. God's HOLY presence is what will create hell for the unrepentant, heaven will be hell for them. Hell is a motivation for MANY to get right with God; sinful human tendency is to not change bad behavior if there are no consequences for said behavior.

God is on trial, He has to demonstrate to the universe that the righteous CANNOT coexist with the unrighteous. The unrighteous would have been resurrected mortal, many still having their aches and pains, poor eyesight etc. and they will STILL be deceived by Satan and the reason they will be deceived is because at their core they would have unchanged hearts. If someone is attacking your child, would you just stand by and watch? The resurrected unrighteous will be numerous compared to the righteous in the Holy City and envy will take a hold of them and they will attack.

 

 

"The moral thing to do would be to let the "wicked dead" remain dead, not bring them back to life for the express purpose of inflicting pain upon them."

 

 

God's justice requires a trial and an execution of judgments. Christ paid the penalty for humans so if they neglected their salvation, it's on them ; they will inflict pain upon their own self; their disobedience will prevent them from being in the presence of Everlasting Burnings (to those unfamiliar with the expression and are curious, you may look it up on one of the bible websites).

Every human is mortal, most will die (some will be translated) so why should basically everyone receive the same reward? Why should Hitler (if he did not repent) have gotten a better deal than the teenagers he killed? He lived longer than them, if he did not repent then he is not covered under Christ's blood and God's justice demands he pays the penalty for his crimes.

[Thumbelina]

 

Thank you.. I understand it better now.

 

Okay.. that's all kinds of creepy. You get to die once... then you get reanimated just to be killed again. (umm.. death is the wages of sin - but it seems one death isn't enough for god)

 

 

 

All of us tend to suffer that one death and many people still choose to be unrighteous to the end. The knowledge of hell prevents man from being totally depraved and vengeful.

 

It seems to me, in this interpretation, that humans are being used to put on a cosmic morality play for the rest of creation... ie: to 'show' the angels or whatever else exists that god is good, and just. According to this view, the heavenly hosts must have some reservations about gods' fairness or there wouldn't really be any question or need for this test of humanity.(?) Very interesting.

 

 

 

Thumbs up.

 

 

And quite illogical considering the omniscience and omnipotence of this god. If it planned it this way.. wow, cruel.

 

 

It was part of His permissive will and not His expressed will. He did not WANT it to occur, He let it occur for a bigger purpose.

 

 

Could it not have just given the knowledge of the outcome to his creations and avoided the pain, suffering and death of billions?, instead of having it acted out on sentient beings?

 

 

 

It's one thing to know of pain than to actually experience it. The creatures were warned but some beings like to learn the hard way.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't god know who will or will not 'go bad?'

 

 

 

Yes

 

 

 

- why create them in the first place?

 

 

 

As Creator it's His choice to create whatever or whomever He wants.

 

 

 

When you consider a being that is not constrained by physical laws or time this plan makes absolutely no sense whatsoever OR we are just sick entertainment for this supreme being.

 

 

 

No, you said it above, there is none good but God, He had to show what selflessness is in order to get His creatures to freely love Him. Sin was foreign to created beings until the father of lies started it.

 

 

 

AND think about this... unfortunately the 'actors' (human beings) have no say in whether to actually be a part of this play, (no one asks to be born as far as I know - because that would presuppose an existence before physical life.. and suggests an immortal soul) and the 'ending' is real, not make believe. nice.

 

 

 

Well, yes.

 

 

And why oh why does the creator of the entire UNIVERSE have such an obsession with blood (and human/animal sacrifice)? Seems a bit, umm.. petty for something that could create galaxies and black holes and such.

 

 

God told Adam and Eve they would die, death NEVER occurred before they sinned, they really could not grasp it fully. God had to demonstrate what happens when one dies. The blood REPRESENTS life, it explains this in the biblical texts.

 

 

Also.. if Jesus was resurrected bodily, where is he now? If he is in heaven does that mean heaven is a physical place? How exactly does that work?

 

 

 

Yes, after Jesus was resurrected He let Thomas touch Him, He was a physical being. Jesus is at the right hand of God interceding for man, He's pleading His blood. It's hard to grasp.

[Thumbelina]

Christianity - the zombie religion

 

 

Yeah, those people in Hollywood know about it and they are ever mocking it.

[mymistake]

All of us tend to suffer that one death and many people still choose to be unrighteous to the end. The knowledge of hell prevents man from being totally depraved and vengeful.

 

Nobody chooses to be unrighteous and there is no such thing as righteious.  There is no knowledge of hell because there is no hell.  You can't know what ins't real.  You can know liturature about ficiton but don't confuse that with knowing a real thing.  People act is a way that they believe to be in their own best interests.  All God would have to do is cure all ignorance but of couse God doesn't do this because God doesn't exist.

[Onyx]

Thank you.. I understand it better now.

 

Okay.. that's all kinds of creepy. You get to die once... then you get reanimated just to be killed again. (umm.. death is the wages of sin - but it seems one death isn't enough for god)

 

It seems to me, in this interpretation, that humans are being used to put on a cosmic morality play for the rest of creation... ie: to 'show' the angels or whatever else exists that god is good, and just. According to this view, the heavenly hosts must have some reservations about gods' fairness or there wouldn't really be any question or need for this test of humanity.(?)  Very interesting. And quite illogical considering the omniscience and omnipotence of this god. If it planned it this way.. wow, cruel. Could it not have just given the knowledge of the outcome to his creations and avoided the pain, suffering and death of billions?, instead of having it acted out on sentient beings? Doesn't god know who will or will not 'go bad?' - why create them in the first place? When you consider a being that is not constrained by physical laws or time this plan makes absolutely no sense whatsoever OR we are just sick entertainment for this supreme being.

 

AND think about this... unfortunately the 'actors' (human beings) have no say in whether to actually be a part of this play, (no one asks to be born as far as I know - because that would presuppose an existence before physical life.. and suggests an immortal soul) and the 'ending' is real, not make believe. nice.

 

And why oh why does the creator of the entire UNIVERSE have such an obsession with blood (and human/animal sacrifice)? Seems a bit, umm.. petty for something that could create galaxies and black holes and such.

 

Also.. if Jesus was resurrected bodily, where is he now? If he is in heaven does that mean heaven is a physical place? How exactly does that work?

 

That creeps me out too, Ravenstar.

 

Not to mention, God will have lost all claims to goodness if he does that, because by that point, a second death is basically just murder of everybody who could have just been made to live again to find redemption. "His ways is not our ways." Yeah right. Like that's an excuse. God ought to be held to his ten commandments (or all 616 by what I've heard) if he is to be credibly good. So he has broken a commandment, that commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." by that logic, he must adhere to the punishment of a second death if he wants to inflict that on us all.

 

Listen, Christians, if it is transmitted through the man made word and I see no signs of God and his angels then that gives me a right to question whatever aspects I want to question. "Test not your Lord God" is such bullshit. We should test God to see if he is the god we would love and trust. If your religion is the true religion, then it should stand up to skepticism and spit, right? Grace under fire, really. But thus far, it hasn't really stood up.

 

Thank goodness that would mean hell or a second death would not exist. The only contender then for a possibility of an afterlife would be if Poincare's theorem actually occasioned a possible restart of our universe or starting anew, but with a different version of ourselves. I gotta say, that's a more merciful alternative than either one of your religious punishments, wouldn't you say, Thumbelina and the Christians? Though that would take a long time, really. But worth it if it is true.

[centauri]

 

Centauri said: Well, we're going to plow this field again I see.

 

 

 

No. I'm not doing this with you because well, I told you last time --->

@ Centauri

Cite the bible OT text that say the irreverent and censorious (who are very rebellious) will comprehend spiritual things. Cite the OT passage that say that people who use disingenuous practices of pitting different beliefs against each other by using google university as research, while ignoring the biblical stipulation of yielding to God and comparing scripture with scripture, will understand the bible. ...

You couldn't address the original point any more than Rayskidude could, so you attempted to divert the issue then as you are now doing again.

There is nothing disingenuous about holding you accountable for your numerous theological claims, including the claim that people here don't know how to read or understand scripture.

 

 

 

 

Your apologetic is exactly the same as presented many times before and it does not explain how evil was created or where it originated.It attempts to dance around the problem by defining evil as merely the absence of good, real but not a "thing".You have not established that evil cannot exist by itself, whereas you claim good does.If evil is defined as an absence of good then good can be defined as an absence of evil.If evil is real as you claim, then it was brought into the universal equation by a creator, regardless of your denial that it's a "thing".Isa 45:7 clearly states that God created evil.The word "ra" includes ethical evil or moral evil, not simply disaster or calamity. You have not provided anything from the Hebrew scriptures that says Satan was the origination of evil.On the other hand there is clear evidence that God was the creator of evil, including ethical or moral evil. You deny this of course, because Christian doctrine cannot tolerate a God that is responsible for anything but good.Evil somehow magically spawns itself, perhaps by spontaneous generation.There is no scriptural basis from the Hebrew scriptures for your proclamation that Satan is the originator of evil. The Bible also states that Gods works are perfect, which lands you on the horns of another dilemma.A perfectly created being cannot by definition sin.A perfect being cannot by definition perform an imperfect act.As soon as it does, it proves it wasn't made perfect to begin with.So either sin is not an imperfection or God's works are not perfect as the Bible says.

 

 

I tried MANY times to explain certain concepts to you, I gave analogies and you're just not getting it. The bible calls sin (transgression of the law) the mystery of iniquity. Skeptics want to know what the MYSTERY of iniquity is, HELLLLLOOOOO, it's a mystery, what does mystery mean? Sin is totally pointless, there is absolutely NO justification for it. You want a justification and it ain't gonna happen. I go by what the bible says and you, who do not have faith in God and believe the bible,

Ok, stop right there.

I know how you love to play the schoolmarm who tries to teach the naughty "children" who are unable to grasp your fanciful explanations and mysteries.

You do not go by what the Bible says, you make things up and wag your finger at those who hold you accountable for your claims.

You claimed Satan was the originator of evil.

Cite the Old Testament scripture that proves it.

That's a very simple request and it's been made multiple times over the years.

Instead of claiming you believe the Bible, instead of believing only the parts that appeal to you, just cite the OT verse that proves Satan created evil.

Place it right here on the next line so there can be no confusion.

 

____________________________

 

 

 

There  is scriptural basis for the proclamation of Satan as the originator of SIN, you don't know how to study the bible for yourself and without requesting help from the HS, you're basically just spinning a top in mud, you won't get the results you want.

 

 

 

This nonsense has been going on for years.

Stop telling me that I don't know how to read.

Just cite the damn scriptural basis in the Old Testament for claim that Satan created evil!

You made the claim, now back it up.

 

 

*Props chin on hands and staring intently at you*

Look, Chickadee, I think you're scared stiff. I think you're protecting your little heart so much that you have a fortress built around it hence your R2D2ish responses. You hear God calling 'here chick, chick, chick' and you think that he wants to wring your neck but no, He wants to gather you under His wings and feed you with the living bread. Ah man, I like you, have for a long time; hmmmm, you have a certain je ne sais quoi, though you tend to be R2D2ish in your responses, there's something about you that seems sweet, vulnerable? Ah, I don't know what it is, all I know is I get a pitter pat feeling in my heart when I think of the character Centauri on Ex Christian.net. I truly hope one day you tear open those eyes and tell Jesus 'Please put some spittle in here!' You then won't be so scared.

I suspect you're quite capable of conversing on topics other than religion, but unfortunately that's not the topic here. You come here to tweak unbelievers and admonish them for their decision to reject something that you have a very unhealthy fetish for.

You assign robotic behavior to me when your behavior sets the standard for mechanical responses.

The only reason I respond to your claims is because there may be lurkers who have been confronted with the tactics you employ.

One such tactic is to accuse me of being "scared" of your version of God.

That door swings both ways, I can play that game too, and you cling to Jesus because you're scared to think about the possibility that you're wasting your life chasing a mirage.

You're so insecure that you not only intoxicate yourself with this fetish, you attempt to suck others into this vortex of supernatural dependency.

That's where your behavior becomes selfish.  You somehow have reached the conclusion that your opinions are "facts".  You believe your reality must be real for all others.

It's a very common trait among Christians and other fundamentalist thinkers.

It has about as nuch impact on me as a Muslim or Hindu preacher would have on you.

[midniterider]

 

Centauri said: Well, we're going to plow this field again I see.

 

 

 

No. I'm not doing this with you because well, I told you last time --->

@ Centauri

Cite the bible OT text that say the irreverent and censorious (who are very rebellious) will comprehend spiritual things. Cite the OT passage that say that people who use disingenuous practices of pitting different beliefs against each other by using google university as research, while ignoring the biblical stipulation of yielding to God and comparing scripture with scripture, will understand the bible. ...

 

 

 

Your apologetic is exactly the same as presented many times before and it does not explain how evil was created or where it originated.It attempts to dance around the problem by defining evil as merely the absence of good, real but not a "thing".You have not established that evil cannot exist by itself, whereas you claim good does.If evil is defined as an absence of good then good can be defined as an absence of evil.If evil is real as you claim, then it was brought into the universal equation by a creator, regardless of your denial that it's a "thing".Isa 45:7 clearly states that God created evil.The word "ra" includes ethical evil or moral evil, not simply disaster or calamity. You have not provided anything from the Hebrew scriptures that says Satan was the origination of evil.On the other hand there is clear evidence that God was the creator of evil, including ethical or moral evil. You deny this of course, because Christian doctrine cannot tolerate a God that is responsible for anything but good.Evil somehow magically spawns itself, perhaps by spontaneous generation.There is no scriptural basis from the Hebrew scriptures for your proclamation that Satan is the originator of evil. The Bible also states that Gods works are perfect, which lands you on the horns of another dilemma.A perfectly created being cannot by definition sin.A perfect being cannot by definition perform an imperfect act.As soon as it does, it proves it wasn't made perfect to begin with.So either sin is not an imperfection or God's works are not perfect as the Bible says.

 

 

I tried MANY times to explain certain concepts to you, I gave analogies and you're just not getting it. The bible calls sin (transgression of the law) the mystery of iniquity. Skeptics want to know what the MYSTERY of iniquity is, HELLLLLOOOOO, it's a mystery, what does mystery mean? Sin is totally pointless, there is absolutely NO justification for it. You want a justification and it ain't gonna happen. I go by what the bible says and you, who do not have faith in God and believe the bible, are trying to explain it, don't you see something is wrong with this picture? God"s works would have been imperfect if He did not make us with the ability to choose, to choose disobeying Him.

 

You know I heard that spunky Australian pastor whom I got the tummy rot thing from, say that some members from the church had a delegate from a primitive society that came to the U.S.A. to represent their church. He said that when the delegate went back he reported that there were sooooo many huts (houses or buildings) in the U.S.A. He told them that they had huts on top of huts on top of huts that go all the way up to the sky and there is a little hut attached to the side that goes up and down the tall hut in order to carry the people. The primitive people listened to this report and they looked at the guy and then a man said 'Next time we're not going to send a liar to represent our church.' Yeah, yeah I know you're gonna say that the buildings are tangible etc. but the believer who experienced God KNOWS that He's there and His words are true, the believer has the EVIDENCE of things not seen (it's hard to explain to people who have not experienced this). The Word really opens up ones understanding when one learns how to study it for oneself ( I did NOT say by oneself, other humans can teach also but their teaching needs to be compared to the bible). There  is scriptural basis for the proclamation of Satan as the originator of SIN, you don't know how to study the bible for yourself and without requesting help from the HS, you're basically just spinning a top in mud, you won't get the results you want.

 

 

 

*Props chin on hands and staring intently at you*

Look, Chickadee, I think you're scared stiff. I think you're protecting your little heart so much that you have a fortress built around it hence your R2D2ish responses. You hear God calling 'here chick, chick, chick' and you think that he wants to wring your neck but no, He wants to gather you under His wings and feed you with the living bread. Ah man, I like you, have for a long time; hmmmm, you have a certain je ne sais quoi, though you tend to be R2D2ish in your responses, there's something about you that seems sweet, vulnerable? Ah, I don't know what it is, all I know is I get a pitter pat feeling in my heart when I think of the character Centauri on Ex Christian.net. I truly hope one day you tear open those eyes and tell Jesus 'Please put some spittle in here!' You then won't be so scared.

 

 

Have another cocktail, Thumb. :-)

[midniterider]

Thumb: "you don't know how to study the bible for yourself and without requesting help from the HS, you're basically just spinning a top in mud, you won't get the results you want..."

 

Request help from HS means Request Christian cult programming.