First Question

[Bhim]

 

 

Your turn, ironhorse:

 

Should a person who does something wrong, however major, however minor, however well-intended, however ill-intended -- be tortured forever?

 

Should a person who does something wrong be punished after death when there is no chance that the punishment will produce any redemptive or rehabilitative result?

 

Would you consider a person (or being) who would inflict either of the above horrors to be morally superior to the rest of us?

 

 

This is an excellent point, and one which I make quite regularly.  Jesus has managed to invent a punishment - namely eternal conscious torment - which even Hitler doesn't deserve.

[midniterider]

Should someone be punished for not loving another someone?

 

If Jesus wants to be loved he needs to:

 

1. Appear in person

2. Demonstrate he is worthy to be loved.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Should someone be punished for not loving another someone?

 

If Jesus wants to be loved he needs to:

 

1. Appear in person

2. Demonstrate he is worthy to be loved.

3. Provide a compelling reason why he should be loved more than family members.

[MerryG]

He willingly placed himself on the cross.

What he experience was not just six hours of excruciating pain,

but a eternity of suffering and pain.

 

Although he died on the cross and rose from the dead, in a mysterious

way I doubt any person can understand, Jesus is still outside of time

and space...somewhere in eternity.... still suffering and still in excruciating pain.

 

For the world

 

This has been bugging me since I first read it.

 

First, on the Truth-o-Meter, it's somewhere between drunken college-dorm speculation and pure manufactured BS.

 

Second, if it were true, what the hell kind of father would put his own son through unending agony just to sate his own bloodlust? Bad enough, allegedly torturing his son for a few hours, killing him, then bringing him back to life and glory. But this?

 

Third, this very idea is not only specious, but sick. Twisted. Sadistic.

 

Fourth, anybody who needs this kind of torture porn to feed his religious mania is also sick.

 

Ffifth, anybody who thinks this kind of torture porn is moving or appealing to normal people is even sicker.

 

Sixth, the sheer sadistic savagery of this notion wouldn't inspire worship or gratitude in a healthy person. It would inspire horror -- and a desire to have no part in such cosmic foulness.

 

I thought your religion was bad enough when it was just daddy setting the son up to be slaughtered in some pointless and incomprehensible bronze age ritual blood sacrifice. But this notion of a Jesus suffering forever "outside of space and time" -- which is clearly an attempt to sound hip, scientific, and relevant to the 21st century -- is perhaps the most repugnant thing I've ever heard from any christian anywhere. And that's saying something.

[ironhorse]

First hell.... and later a response to MerryG's objection to the view

I posted about what happened on the cross.

 

Four Views on Hell:

1. Eternal conscious torment / literal fire

2. Annihilation / total destruction of the body, soul and spirit

3. Universalism / after time in purgatory all will enter God's Kingdom

4. Metaphorically / not literal fire, but eternal punishment, a very small space

 

Number 3 is not correct. The scriptures clearly teach that some will be in hell.

Number 1 is the least of my preferred views.

Number 2 sounds just but it seems to go against the scriptures that teach our

spirits are immortal.

Number 4 is my view and I admit I could be wrong. If I am, then I would

prefer number 2 and 1 being my least preferred.

 

This is a doctrine that C.S. Lewis wrote a lot about. The scriptures statements

on hell was something that Lewis dealt with in his book The Great Divorce

and other writings.

 

Jesus mentions the unpardonable sin in several verses. A sin that cannot

be forgiven. This, I think, has been misunderstood by some people.

 

The unpardonable sin is a person's final rejection of Christ and his offer

of forgiveness and life.

 

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God 'thy

will be done' and those to whom God says, 'THY will be done.'

~C.S. Lewis

[Ravenstar]

oh please, not C.S. Lewis.  Sigh.

 

It doesn't really matter what anyone extant of the Bible says, or what anyone is comfortable with. What do the scriptures say? If one is a Christian, and believes the Bible is the Word of God - then THAT is what one must believe as the truth.

 

Otherwise you are just making up your own religion.  I, personally, don't have a problem with that - but then it isn't christianity, is it?

 

My reading of the NT, including Revelations, is that there is resurrection from the grave (sleep) then torment and THEN destruction. But that's just me. It's still abhorrent.

 

I am a parent and can't IMAGINE raising my child from the dead, to torture her, then killing her. It's NOT love.. it's NOT justice.. it's just sadistic. No matter HOW bad she was… no. The idea makes me nauseous. I don't kick my cat when she is naughty either.

 

Remember Jesus saying to his God, "Forgive them, for they know NOT what they do"? This tells me that the concept in the bible towards humans is that we really are like little kids, making mistakes - not evil intentionally awful beings.. at least that was Jesus' view, as reported.

 

The new age people have a much better idea - they propose that (dead people)'souls' are restricted from others in the spiritual realms while they are 'damaged', and placed through an extensive rest and healing process in the spirit… for however long that takes.. and LOVED back to spiritual health. Always respecting the free will of the spirit though… the restrictions are protection for the others.. so the damaged have their own 'hospital plane' of existence, where more evolved souls assist them.

 

Alternatively there is the thought that reincarnation is the vehicle for spirits to experience everything (good and bad) and learn through these experiences that good is the better choice. Once at a certain level of enlightenment they then move on to higher planes of existence.

 

I'm not convinced by any of these concepts (for other reasons) - but the new age ones are FAR more compassionate than the Biblical one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Four Views on Hell:

1. Eternal conscious torment / literal fire

2. Annihilation / total destruction of the body, soul and spirit

3. Universalism / after time in purgatory all will enter God's Kingdom

4. Metaphorically / not literal fire, but eternal punishment, a very small space

 

5. Eternity with a god who would have cast me into hell for being honest about my doubts and disbelief, and being expected to worship said god.

 

Sorry, you left one off.

[Ravenstar]

God said he was in hell too… not sure how that works. Psalm something or other.

[sdelsolray]

A CS Lewis acolyte.  My, my, my.  No wonder he can't think for himself. 

[LukeExChristian]

do you have anything in particular to say about Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18? after reading those two verses do you have a comment?

[mydisplayname]

Ironhorse,

 

Unforgivable sin

"Jesus mentions the unpardonable sin in several verses. A sin that cannot

be forgiven. This, I think, has been misunderstood by some people."

 

The unforgivable sin is blasphemy againt the holy ghost. How am I misunderstanding it?

 

Never mind, let's say the unforgivable sin is as you say  "a person's final rejection of Christ and his offer

of forgiveness and life."

Am I committing it now by calling the holy ghost a prick or is this not my final rejection. What must I do to finally reject Christ and his offer

of forgiveness and life?

 

Please give me a way to commit your definition of the unforgivable sin. 

 

Hell

Hell, at least you've given it some thought. I would like to add a fifth possibility. Imagine spending eternity praising a serial killer and watching your family suffering and actually being forced to enjoy watching it. 

 

Heaven or Hell? You make it seem as if that's an easy choice to make. Sitting there in heaven watching others burn.... and I can't do anything to help? That in itself would be hell for me. I'd be up there fighting god and his angels to let me out, so that I can come down and at least try to help. I am a moral person. Heaven is for uncaring hypocrites. - D Pryce

[ironhorse]

sdelsolray, "A C S Lewis acolyte. My, My, My. No wonder he can't think for himself."

 

A scholar of English Literature, medieval and Renaissance, science fiction author,

apologist, friends with T. S. Eliot and J.R.R. Tolkien and atheist who converted to Christianity.

 

Yeah, I admire him and continue to read his work.

 

 

LikeExChristian, "Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18"

 

There is not a contradiction in the description of Judas' death.

Here are a few things that can happen when a human in hung:

erection, face bloats due to the blood constriction and bowels can be

loosened and be expelled.  

 

 

Faceahem, "Definition of unpardonable sin."

 

When I was ten years old I heard a travelling evangelist who preached

an hour on this and said it was saying anything or even thinking anything

against the Holy Spirit. Of course this scared the living daylights out of me.

My mind immediately started saying things against the Spirit.

 

When we arrived home my father and mother were very upset with this guy's

message and told me the truth. They to had heard this false teaching before

and like me were very scared and troubled.

 

The unpardonable sin is a final rejection of  Christ.

[florduh]

Four Views on Hell:

1. Eternal conscious torment / literal fire

2. Annihilation / total destruction of the body, soul and spirit

3. Universalism / after time in purgatory all will enter God's Kingdom

4. Metaphorically / not literal fire, but eternal punishment, a very small space

 

As with so many Christian doctrines, it appears that believers have to make up their own stories to make something sensible and/or palatable out of the nonsense provided to them by their deity.

[Guest Marty]

 

The unpardonable sin is a final rejection of  Christ.

 

That's not what jesus said it was.  He said it was blaspheming the holy spirit.

[TrueFreedom]

What good is punishment if it does not reform?  If a punishment is not meant to help the one being punished it is no different than revenge.  "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

[mydisplayname]

When we arrived home my father and mother were very upset with this guy's

message and told me the truth. They to had heard this false teaching before

and like me were very scared and troubled.

 

The unpardonable sin is a final rejection of  Christ.

 

Scripture is very clear that speaking against the holy spirit is an unforgivable sin.

 

“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29

 

How is this unclear and how is this a "false" teaching? (I mean more false than the rest of the bible anyway.)

[Pantophobia]

The unpardonable sin is a final rejection of  Christ.

 

 

 

The Final Rejection: A Play in One Act.

 

Me: Jesus? You there?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Hey, that's all right, I know I'm just supposed to have faith and stuff. You're bigger and better than mere humans, so I can't expect you to come chat with me like a regular guy.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Jesus, I'm really lonely right now. I'm scared. I feel like no one loves me. Please, please help me to feel loved by someone! They say you love me, but all I feel is alone!

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Okay, Jesus, I guess if I feel alone instead of feeling your love, I must not be looking hard enough. I'll try to do better.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Jesus, I helped another person today/turned the other cheek/smiled when someone said something bad/honored my father and my mother! That is you showing your love in my life, right?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: The thing is, Jesus, I just need some reassurance. Pastor said and Grandma said that if I pray sincerely, you can't fail to give me what I ask. All I want is to feel your love in my life, to feel I'm worth something.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Okay, well, I guess I am supposed to remember that I'm "a poor, miserable sinner" who doesn't deserve the gift of your love or God's forgiveness or any of it. Even though I try so hard to be a good person and not harm others. But I can't help feeling like this fear and darkness is closing in on me. Can't you please help me bear it, Jesus?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Well, I *did* learn that if you ask God/Jesus for something, that He will give you tests and trials. Is that what this is, Jesus? I ask you for love and self-worth and peace in my heart, for this sense of terror to lessen, and you are testing me by showing me I'm strong enough to bear it? Is that what you're doing?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: PLEASE, JESUS, I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS PAIN ANYMORE! HELP ME! I am humbling myself before you like never before! I know I am a horrible person, but please, please surround me with your love and your grace! Please lift this darkness!

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Fine. I give up. Punish me and torture me for your own fun and profit. If that is what my life is supposed to be, I'll bear it, and get my rewards in heaven.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: SERIOUSLY, JESUS? I am *begging*! Help me! I'm doing everything I read in the bible, everything I learned- Is this because I had sex before marriage? I'm sorry! Is this because I went to school instead of using my money to help my mom? I'm sorry! Is this because I had that mean thought about the person who did that awful thing to me? I'm sorry! Is it because I forgot to leave a tip when I went for a haircut, and now someone is suffering as a result of not having that five dollars? I'm sorry! I'm sorry for everything, Jesus! Please forgive me!

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I just need a sign of your love. I just need to know that what I'm doing is okay.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I saw the full moon tonight, Jesus, and felt a gentle breeze on my cheek. That was you telling me you were comforting me, wasn't it? 

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I feel so alone, Jesus. I know suicide is a sin, and I don't think I could actually do it, but I just want to die. I don't matter to anyone except you. 

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I can't beg anymore, Jesus. How much more of this hurt and pain and torture am I supposed to take before I experience the radiance of your love? Grandma and Mom tell me it's there. Other people hear your voice, feel your love, know that you are moving in their lives. Maybe I DO think too much, but you know how hard I'm trying to be good and do good things with my life, don't you?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: AGAIN? SERIOUSLY, JESUS, WTF? MAKE THE PAIN STOP! I BEG YOU!

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I need a light in the darkness, Jesus.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Jesus, look, I don't think I can do this anymore. 

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: I mean, it, Jesus. I'm having some really serious doubts and I can't ignore them any longer. It's been decades, and I still don't understand why what I'm doing is so wrong and deserving of eternal damnation. 

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: You know what? I'm done. 

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Really, Jesus. I'm hanging up now.

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: Hello? Is this thing on…?

 

Jesus: *silence*

 

Me: *disconnects*

 

Jesus: *silence*

[Fernweh]

sdelsolray, "A C S Lewis acolyte. My, My, My. No wonder he can't think for himself."

 

A scholar of English Literature, medieval and Renaissance, science fiction author,

apologist, friends with T. S. Eliot and J.R.R. Tolkien and atheist who converted to Christianity.

 

Yeah, I admire him and continue to read his work.

 

Appeal to Authority

 

 

LikeExChristian, "Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18"

 

There is not a contradiction in the description of Judas' death.

Here are a few things that can happen when a human in hung:

erection, face bloats due to the blood constriction and bowels can be

loosened and be expelled.

 

Two authors supposedly inspired by the Word of God should be able to corroborate an account of a single event.

 

 

Faceahem, "Definition of unpardonable sin."

 

When I was ten years old I heard a travelling evangelist who preached

an hour on this and said it was saying anything or even thinking anything

against the Holy Spirit. Of course this scared the living daylights out of me.

My mind immediately started saying things against the Spirit.

 

When we arrived home my father and mother were very upset with this guy's

message and told me the truth. They to had heard this false teaching before

and like me were very scared and troubled.

 

The unpardonable sin is a final rejection of  Christ.

 

Are you a bible literalist or do you choose to make the bible mean whatever feels good to yourself? 

[ironhorse]

Fernweh, "Are you a bible literalist or do you choose to make the

bible mean whatever feels good to yourself?"

 

There are dozens to scripture telling the reader to study the scriptures.

 

-Psalms 119:48  "meditate on the word'

-Proverbs 2:9  "Incline your heart to understanding"

-Acts 17:11 "search the scriptures to see if these things are true"

-Romans 15:4 "written for our learning"

-1 Timothy 4:5 "meditate on these things"

 

I believe the Bible is God's message to us. It covers a few thousand years written by people

who lived centuries apart. The scriptures must be understood by the context, the time period,

who is speaking and to whom the verse (context) is addressed. One must also be aware

of when symbolism is being used and whether the text be taken literally or metaphorically.

 

I have tried to do my best to not twist the scripture to suit my view. There are several

warnings about how some will do this.

[♦ ficino ♦]

LikeExChristian, "Matthew 27:5 and Acts 1:18"

 

There is not a contradiction in the description of Judas' death.

Here are a few things that can happen when a human in hung:

erection, face bloats due to the blood constriction and bowels can be

loosened and be expelled.

The big contradiction betw Matthew's and Acts' accounts of Judas' death lies in what happens to, and is done with, the money. Matthew says Judas threw it down before the priests, who later bought the Field of Blood with it. Acts says that Judas bought the field himself with it. Only by making words mean what they do not mean can one wash away the contradiction.

 

There was detailed discussion of this topic starting on p. 37 of this thread:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/59533-if-jesus-is-god/page-37#entry912581

[ironhorse]

I read the discussion you posted.

 

Here's my take on it.

 

Judas threw the coins back. The priest could not use the money

because it was "blood money." They used it to purchase a pauper's

field to be used for burial. So with his own money Judas indeed

purchased a field.

 

Tom gave twenty dollars to his wife. She bought lottery tickets.

Tom bought him a life of luxury!

[Ravenstar]

Let's not get into Judas.. there are two contradicting stories here, and we aren't even sure exactly what happened to him.. it also parallels the sale of Joseph (i.e.: it's a parable/a metaphor).

[♦ ficino ♦]

I read the discussion you posted.

 

Here's my take on it.

 

Judas threw the coins back. The priest could not use the money

because it was "blood money." They used it to purchase a pauper's

field to be used for burial. So with his own money Judas indeed

purchased a field.

 

Tom gave twenty dollars to his wife. She bought lottery tickets.

Tom bought him a life of luxury!

As I said, you can only harmonize Matthew's and Acts' accounts of Judas' money if you make words mean what they do not mean. Acts 1:18 says "Now, this man acquired/bought a field from the wages of unrighteousness..."

 

According to Matthew, once Judas rejects the 30 pieces of silver, the money is not his. The priests' buying the field with that money is not equivalent to "this man acquired/bought a field..." Judas does not own the field in Matthew.

 

I've seen that lottery ticket analogy elsewhere, btw. Did you get it from a Christian website? It's a false analogy. Husband and wife can be treated legally as an "entirety", each having ownership of the same property. That does not hold between Judas and the priests. Fail.

 

There are many such contradictions or other problems in the Bible. You can let them be indicators of the different agenda, etc. of the different writers - which is what an objective reader would judge them to be. Under the theory that the bible is inerrant, though, you can only resolve such contradictions by stretching the plain meaning of the text. Keep reading the Bible, ironhorse, and you may find yourself getting to the point where the number of stretches that you have to put onto the text starts to seem like special pleading. Many people have abandoned inerrancy just by studying the Bible itself.

 

-----------------

edited to add:

Just came across this website, which replies to contradictions alleged by the guy on yet another website:

 

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/DefendingTheGospels.htm

 

About the two accounts of Judas' money, John McClymont, defending inerrancy, says:

 

"The field was brought by the priests with Judas' money, for strangers and possibly Judas himself to be buried in. When Acts says Judas acquired a field with the proceeds of his wickedness, the Greek (ektesato) need not imply that Judas bought the field himself: it is compatible with the state of affairs where Judas de facto "gets" a field for his own burial as a result of the priests buying it for him with his own money. Judas acquired the field not by buying it himself, but in the sense that the field was bought for him."

 

The stuff bolded was bolded by me. I say only, "John, listen to yourself."

 

"This man bought/acquired" does not mean "the priests bought/acquired for this man." The money was no longer "Judas' own money" in the Matthew account.

 

If these texts are inspired by the Holy Spirit, that means that they say what the Holy Spirit wants them to say. Why does anyone saddle the Holy Spirit with wanting contradictory accounts, which require shit like the above to try to reconcile them?

[Vigile]

 

Welcome to the forums and good luck.

 

 

Science has not been able to prove God does not exists.

 

 

Seriously? You're going to have to step up your game around here. There are some very smart, well educated former pastors, teachers, Biblical scholars, and missionaries around these parts. Some of us used to do lots of apologetic gymnastics. I suggest you get better quickly, for your own sake.

 

 

And some of us were even smart enough to never become pastors, biblical scholars and missionaries...

 

 

[sdelsolray]

sdelsolray, "A C S Lewis acolyte. My, My, My. No wonder he can't think for himself."

 

A scholar of English Literature, medieval and Renaissance, science fiction author,

apologist, friends with T. S. Eliot and J.R.R. Tolkien and atheist who converted to Christianity.

 

Yeah, I admire him and continue to read his work.

You seem to avoid rational thinking, and accomplish this by allowing your emotions to infect your intellect.  Ignoring CS Lewis' frequent use of local fallacies in his writing is strong evidence supporting this conclusion.  Lewis is writing to folks such as you, who are intellectually lazy and unwilling (or unable) to put rational thinking ahead of their religious faith.

 

Of course, that's fine, for you.  For others…not so much.

 

As further evidence of your avoidance of rational inquiry, please revisit post #94 in this thread (you did not respond to it).

 

Another example is the following post from earlier in this thread (you did not respond to it either):

 

…

-I read Darwin's book way back as a teenager in my father's library and I read it several

 times since then. I have read many books on evolution written by evolutionists. I don't

 believe it.

 

…

 

 

To which I inquired at post #96 in this thread:

 

Perhaps you can explain why you do not "believe it".

 

1)  Is it because, after your exhaustive study and research, you have falsified the biological theory of evolution utilizing the scientific method?

2)  Is it because the explanations and predictions of the biological theory of evolution conflict with your religious faith (see above for a "faith" discussion)?

3)  For some other reason?

 

Please try to avoid injecting logical fallacies into your explanation, such as the argument from incredulity fallacy, the mere assertion fallacy, unless, of course, your rely on such logical fallacies for your belief.

 

Thank you in advance for your honesty.