First Question

[Bhim]

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Hi Ironhorse, since you're still in this thread I hope you don't mind my directing you to my post #119.  I realize you have several posters to respond to, but at some point I would certainly appreciate a response to my comments as well.

 

This is a particular issue that I bring up with many Christian posters, and I usually am ignored.  I hope you will be the exception.

[Bhim]

After reading some Jewish stuff on Judaism I think you are right. Judaism is quite different from christianity. I don't know much, I admit, but it's interesting to get their point of view. I will peruse more when I can.

 

Western culture is based on Greek and Roman concepts (after they 'converted' my ancestors the 'barbarians' (Celts, and Nordics too) at the point of a sword ) It is most definitely not eastern in any way. Constantinople may have been the origin of the christian religion but after Rome took over it became very "Roman'. (Even today Turkey remains an odd mixture of occidental and oriental culture.)

 

I find it interesting that even though the English were in India for so long the population remains primarily Hindu (and Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim). Again, I don't know much about it - but it's an interesting phenomena.

 

I won't go into western white male privilege - because that could quickly go off topic, but it's a thing that has a huge impact on the world and I believe is intrinsically wrapped up with christianity.

 

Indeed, I too have found that Judaism is disparate from the teachings of Christianity.  As a Christian this is one of the principle issues that bothered me, since virtually every claim of Jesus' messiahship which stemmed from the Old Testament had an alternative, Jewish response which did not necessitate that Jesus is the Messiah.  Christianity was started at a very unique time when Jewish influence in the Western world must have been significant enough to attract the attention of the Westerners who would later be the first Christians.  After all, when Paul converted various peoples in Asia Minor, he wasn't met with confusion when he quoted the Old Testament.

 

As for the failure of Christianity in India, like I said Indians place a pretty strong emphasis on real family values (i.e. not what Christians call "family values," by which they mean submission to Jesus).  The same is true in Japan, where the gospel of Jesus also has largely failed.  Sadly, Western-backed evangelicals in recent years have turned to economics as a tool for conversion, offering impoverished Indians money in exchange for regular visits to their churches.  I do not know what the current status is of the Christian population in India, but I suspect that these so-called "rice Christians" are growing in number.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Which one?  There are thousands of gods and goddesses in human religion.  You can't prove any of them don't exist.  So naturally you are going to follow them all, right?  You can't prove that super heros don't exist either so it would presumptuous of us to say that Superman is fiction.

 

According to my four-year-old, Thor is the supreme god with Batman and Spiderman serving as lesser gods beneath him.  He has also stated emphatically that jesus is not a god, but he teaches the gods what they know.  So far, the only glitch in his pantheon is explaining why jesus was nailed to a cross while Thor carries a hammer. 

 

I'd say he's got it figured out about as well as anybody else has.

[Ravenstar]

 

After reading some Jewish stuff on Judaism I think you are right. Judaism is quite different from christianity. I don't know much, I admit, but it's interesting to get their point of view. I will peruse more when I can.

 

Hey Ravenstar - Check our chabad.org. There is an "As a Rabbi" option there. I went there to ask what the Jewish view was on the Fall of Man story. It was an eye-opener. They're really nice people too.

 

Thanks!  Sounds interesting  

[Ravenstar]

 

After reading some Jewish stuff on Judaism I think you are right. Judaism is quite different from christianity. I don't know much, I admit, but it's interesting to get their point of view. I will peruse more when I can.

 

Western culture is based on Greek and Roman concepts (after they 'converted' my ancestors the 'barbarians' (Celts, and Nordics too) at the point of a sword ) It is most definitely not eastern in any way. Constantinople may have been the origin of the christian religion but after Rome took over it became very "Roman'. (Even today Turkey remains an odd mixture of occidental and oriental culture.)

 

I find it interesting that even though the English were in India for so long the population remains primarily Hindu (and Buddhist, Sikh, Muslim). Again, I don't know much about it - but it's an interesting phenomena.

 

I won't go into western white male privilege - because that could quickly go off topic, but it's a thing that has a huge impact on the world and I believe is intrinsically wrapped up with christianity.

 

Indeed, I too have found that Judaism is disparate from the teachings of Christianity.  As a Christian this is one of the principle issues that bothered me, since virtually every claim of Jesus' messiahship which stemmed from the Old Testament had an alternative, Jewish response which did not necessitate that Jesus is the Messiah.  Christianity was started at a very unique time when Jewish influence in the Western world must have been significant enough to attract the attention of the Westerners who would later be the first Christians.  After all, when Paul converted various peoples in Asia Minor, he wasn't met with confusion when he quoted the Old Testament.

 

As for the failure of Christianity in India, like I said Indians place a pretty strong emphasis on real family values (i.e. not what Christians call "family values," by which they mean submission to Jesus).  The same is true in Japan, where the gospel of Jesus also has largely failed.  Sadly, Western-backed evangelicals in recent years have turned to economics as a tool for conversion, offering impoverished Indians money in exchange for regular visits to their churches.  I do not know what the current status is of the Christian population in India, but I suspect that these so-called "rice Christians" are growing in number.

 

I think from the time that the tribe of Judah was held in Babylon, knowledge of Judaism grew.. the area at that time was also a major trading thoroughfare from the Mediterranean to the Eastern spice and mining routes. Judaism absorbed a lot of Babylonian and Persian concepts during that time (the flood story was well know, as was the 'Moses' story - all borrowed from these other cultures) - which would have been familiar to most people. Egypt and Babylon then reduced in power with the rise of the Greeks, then the Romans. Christianity borrowed heavily from the Osiris/Isis/Horus mythology as well as Greek pagan mythology.. and Isis was VERY popular throughout the known world…(up until quite recently, and the motif of the mother and child can be traced back to her worship which goes so far back it is actually pre-historic.) and Dionysus, Mithra and Attis of Phrygia, as well as Lord Krishna are several gods who are very similar to the Jesus figure (there are more but these are the main ones) So I think that the basic concepts of both Judaism and christianity were already part of the culture of the ancient world. Christianity is syncretistic, and way more pagan than the christians would like to believe. Take the Holy Mother (goddess)… Isis, Ishtar, Innanna, Astarte, Quan Yin..Ceridwen, Freya, the Shakti … they are all embodiments of the same 'energy' and symbolism. Christianity had to adopt this motif to be 'legitimized' to the pagans.. gods HAD to have holy mothers (usually goddesses but the christians found a way around this.. oh! by the way "Mari" is one of the ancient names of the great goddess, who was frequently tied to the sea (mare - latin). So I think "Mary" as Jesus mother's name is no mistake or coincidence.

 

I have friends from Bangledesh. I've seen how COMMITTED they are to their family (including extended). It's different than western families, not that the love is different or better, it's just different, more close-knit…

 

It's kind of disgusting that christianity propagates itself by exploiting the poor.

[Fweethawt]

Why do you have Alice Cooper listed twice under your interests?

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Hi Ironhorse, since you're still in this thread I hope you don't mind my directing you to my post #119.  I realize you have several posters to respond to, but at some point I would certainly appreciate a response to my comments as well.

 

This is a particular issue that I bring up with many Christian posters, and I usually am ignored.  I hope you will be the exception.

 

After that, it would be great if you could get back to 28 and 39 about supposed extrabiblical evidence about Jesus.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

After reading some Jewish stuff on Judaism I think you are right. Judaism is quite different from christianity. I don't know much, I admit, but it's interesting to get their point of view. I will peruse more when I can.

 

Hey Ravenstar - Check our chabad.org. There is an "As a Rabbi" option there. I went there to ask what the Jewish view was on the Fall of Man story. It was an eye-opener. They're really nice people too.

 

Thanks!  Sounds interesting  

 

Is that the Lubavitcher Hasidim youth org?

[ironhorse]

fweethawt,

 

I've been a fan since high school. I've been to one of his concerts. Great show!

Will go again when he's near my area.

 

I like his music, lyrics and our belief is the same.

[bornagainathiest]

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Thank you for your reply Ironhorse.

 

Please be advised though, that my exact wording was this.

 

"I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe."

 

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Fweethawt]

fweethawt,

 

I've been a fan since high school. I've been to one of his concerts. Great show!

Will go again when he's near my area.

 

I like his music, lyrics and our belief is the same.

Okay... This very answer would have sufficed had you only listed his name ONCE.

 

My question was -- Why do you have Alice Cooper listed TWICE under your interests?

 

 

We get this a lot from other christian posters. We ask specific questions, and we get answers that just dont quite pertain to the question asked. It gets frustrating, you know?

 

Oops! That was another question, wasn't it?

 

Oh shit! That's THREE!

 

Theres THREE separate beings that make one within the trinity, isn't there?

 

Uh-oh! That's FOUR!

 

The questions sure are mounting here, aren't they?

 

Oh -- damn -- that's FIVE!

 

:-(

[Guest end3]

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Thank you for your reply Ironhorse.

 

Please be advised though, that my exact wording was this.

 

"I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe."

 

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out.

[sdelsolray]

…

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Nitpick.

 

If you demonstrate that the first verse of the Bible is false, it does not necessarily follow that all else in the Bible is false.  It may be true that the remainder is false, or it may be true some of it is false and some of it true or it may be true that the remainder is entirely true.

 

I'm sure you understand this without me mentioning it, but I thought I would bring it up in case you made a mistake in your quoted language above and desire to modify it before you provide your argument as to why the Biblical God could not have created the universe.

[midniterider]

fweethawt,

 

I've been a fan since high school. I've been to one of his concerts. Great show!

Will go again when he's near my area.

 

I like his music, lyrics and our belief is the same.

 

I like this Alice Cooper song:

 

"Feed My Frankenstein"

 

[Zodiac Mindwarp/Alice Cooper/Nick Coler/Ian Richardson]

 

Well, I ain't evil, I'm just good lookin'

Start a little fire, and baby start cookin'

I'm a hungry man

But I don't want pizza

I'll blow down your house

And then I'm gonna eat ya

 

Bring you to a simmer

Right on time

Run my greasy fingers

Up your greasy spine

 

[CHORUS]

Feed my Frankenstein

Meet my libido

He's a psycho

Feed my Frankenstein

Hungry for love

And it's feeding time

 

You don't want to talk

So baby shut up

And let me drink the wine from your fur tea cup

Velcro candy, sticky sweet

Make my tattoos melt in the heat

Well, I ain't no veggie

Like my flesh on the bone

Alive and lickin' on your ice cream cone

 

[CHORUS]

 

--------------

 

Praise Jesus and Alice Cooper drinking from the fur tea cup! Sounds like a song for Sunday church service. :-)

[midniterider]

http://www.examiner.com/article/alice-cooper-banned-from-gig-for-anti-christian-values

 

Interesting read. Especially the comments.

 

I guess you can behave any way you like on stage .... that's "separate" from your belief system. Jesus ignores your business life. :-)

[RipVanWinkle]

"Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out."  iironhouse

 

 

 

Indeed it has. But that won't matter to Xtians because their heart tells them otherwise and the heart is never wrong.

 

"The heart is deceptive above all things. Who can understand it?"  Jeremiah 17:9 

[Guest end3]

"Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out."  iironhouse

 

 

 

Indeed it has. But that won't matter to Xtians because their heart tells them otherwise and the heart is never wrong.

 

"The heart is deceptive above all things. Who can understand it?"  Jeremiah 17:9 

Bill, that was not ironhorse....end3 sir.

[Ravenstar]

Poor End3.. you keep getting lumped in… I don't think it's intentional though.

 

Hope you are doing better  

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Thank you for your reply Ironhorse.

 

Please be advised though, that my exact wording was this.

 

"I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe."

 

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out.

 

 

There's no attached to your post End. 

 

So is this just a mischievous (and harmless) one liner or are you venting more attitude, this time in my direction?

 

If it's the former, then no harm done and I accept it in the spirit it was given. 

 

If it's the latter...

[bornagainathiest]

 

…

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Nitpick.

 

If you demonstrate that the first verse of the Bible is false, it does not necessarily follow that all else in the Bible is false.  It may be true that the remainder is false, or it may be true some of it is false and some of it true or it may be true that the remainder is entirely true.

 

I'm sure you understand this without me mentioning it, but I thought I would bring it up in case you made a mistake in your quoted language above and desire to modify it before you provide your argument as to why the Biblical God could not have created the universe.

 

 

Point (nitpick) taken, Sdelsolray.

 

If Genesis 1:1 is false, there still could have been a human called Jesus who said what he said and went where he went. 

 

However, the specifics of my argument hinge on the three points made in 1:1.

First, that there was a beginning, second that this beginning was caused by the god of the Bible and third, that god is the direct cause of the universe we inhabit.

 

When I reply fully to Ironhorse I will begin by conceding the point #1 (and saying why).

I will also concede that point #2 cannot be addressed by science.  However, I plan to demonstrate that point # 3 cannot be attributed directly to god, but can be directly attributed to purely natural phenomena.

 

Therefore, I will be breaking the direct causal link 1:1 makes between #1 and # 3.

That, even though there was a beginning, this beginning gave rise to an entirely natural process and that our universe is the result of the entirely natural outworkings of that process.  Thus, god cannot be the direct cause of our universe.  

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[ironhorse]

midniterider,

Yeah, I like that one also. I was in my car the first time I

heard AC, "I'm Eighteen" came blasting on. I connected to

it immediately. Big fan ever since,

 

Fweethawt,

My error on AC twice. I've corrected and added two I meant to

add.

[falemon]

If there was solid proof like a video from an alien race showing us the conception of our solar system, the building of the pyramids, what the destruction of the walls of Jerusalem, we can be 100% sure that it will not be enough to shake faith. They'll say it's just satan desperate to rob us of our rightful place in heaven.

 

But in terms of cosmology versus Genesis, sure you're right, it doesn't mean there was not a Jesus as described but it does mean it gives a false account. It does, however, show that the word of the bible is not the infallible word of our creator.

 

Hey, I'm not even saying that God is a lie, because in theory a Grand architect of the universe could have designed and planned everything and still have executed it as scientific theories suggest it may have.

 

It's like when I create virtual worlds on a computer I don't have to be concerned with every detail, I can start it off in much the same way as science describes. Lots of random events interacting with each other over a long period. I don't need to design the life forms, I just need life to evolve (and to my liking if I want).

 

In much the same way that scientists have been able to run simulations of the universe's formation, and without having to create each planet by hand you still end up with a Universe that looks much like ours. So no, I'm not saying God is a lie, but this does show us that the words are not the infallible word of that which created this universe.

 

That is important, because it pretty much invalidates its legitimacy because it is saying that everything in it is a result of this claim to the intimate workings of the universe, and for that reason the rest has to be dismissed.

 

Sure, some events could have happened, but every archeological search shows that details were somewhat different to what is described. There will be parallels with the real world, which shouldn't be a surprise, but the interesting one is with the plagues of Egypt.

 

Archeology shows that those plagues could have actually happened, in fact the darkening of the sky is most likely to have happened as described, ... only several hundred years earlier as a result of a nearby volcano erupting. The plagues that the bible describes can naturally follow. Even the deaths of the firstborns. See, chain of events that would have followed the volcano eruption eventually would have caused infestation, and somewhere along the line their bread would have developed a little mould. Now they would have had a famine and it was protocol at that time to feed the firstborn so that they can carry on the family line should the rest of the family starve to death, however this time they did themselves wrong and poisoned their firstborn.

 

It's funny how many bible stories are inspired by the experiences of men

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Thank you for your reply Ironhorse.

 

Please be advised though, that my exact wording was this.

 

"I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe."

 

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out.

 

 

There's no attached to your post End. 

 

So is this just a mischievous (and harmless) one liner or are you venting more attitude, this time in my direction?

 

If it's the former, then no harm done and I accept it in the spirit it was given. 

 

If it's the latter...

 

No BAA, I want to please hear the end all of arguments. Hell, everyone does. Share, share, share. Provide proof please.

 

If you will pose it to one Christian, certainly as a long time resident here you will pose it to me as well?

[bornagainathiest]

I will indeed put my argument to... Ironhorse.

He's an unknown quantity to me, so I'm going to cut him the slack I reckon he deserves.  But I don't like the attitude I see in your posts here.  "The end of all arguments"...etc.   You had no call to write those words...

 

...but they are symptomatic of a long-standing communication problem we've had. 

 

Need I remind you that over the years I've tried to discuss various scriptural matters and scientific matters with you? 

Several times, in fact.  I put in a fair amount of effort into each of them and what happened before we could make any real progress?  What happened each and every time?

 

You blew it.

You didn't have the self-discipline and the staying power needed.  I was casting my pearls before you and you turned and treated them with contempt.  And here we are again.  Once again I'm ready to talk with you in a mature, controlled and adult manner and once again you're displaying the same attitude problem as before.

 

So, here's what'll happen if I don't see you drop the attitude.

.

.

 

 

I'll make my argument to Ironhorse by Private Messaging, copying in anyone who requests it.

You'll have excluded yourself and you'll have nobody but yourself to blame for it.

.

.

.

Btw, I'm a divorced man too.

To a certain degree, I can empathize with your current pain and your mental anguish.  Living, as I do, in a small community I have no choice but to encounter my ex and her family on an almost weekly basis.  In the mall, in the street, in restaurants, etc.  I'm reminded of what I lost almost every day.  It hurts like hell, doesn't it?

 

My big advantage over you End is the time I've had to heal.

Fourteen years, or thereabouts. Your wounds however are still fresh and red-raw.  I appreciate that.  Yet, you can still find it within yourself to apologize for your bad attitude - as you did a week or two ago.  So, you DO have what it takes to recognize your faults, to be sorry for your behavior and want to make amends for your hasty words.

.

.

.

Now that I've opened up about myself publicly like this, don't **** with me, ok?

 

Lose the attitude and I'll bring you on-board. 

 

Keep it up and you're out!

 

Over to you.

 

BAA

 

 

[Guest end3]

I will indeed put my argument to... Ironhorse.

He's an unknown quantity to me, so I'm going to cut him the slack I reckon he deserves.  But I don't like the attitude I see in your posts here.  "The end of all arguments"...etc.   You had no call to write those words...

 

...but they are symptomatic of a long-standing communication problem we've had. 

 

Need I remind you that over the years I've tried to discuss various scriptural matters and scientific matters with you? 

Several times, in fact.  I put in a fair amount of effort into each of them and what happened before we could make any real progress?  What happened each and every time?

 

You blew it.

You didn't have the self-discipline and the staying power needed.  I was casting my pearls before you and you turned and treated them with contempt.  And here we are again.  Once again I'm ready to talk with you in a mature, controlled and adult manner and once again you're displaying the same attitude problem as before.

 

So, here's what'll happen if I don't see you drop the attitude.

.

.

 

 

I'll make my argument to Ironhorse by Private Messaging, copying in anyone who requests it.

You'll have excluded yourself and you'll have nobody but yourself to blame for it.

.

.

.

Btw, I'm a divorced man too.

To a certain degree, I can empathize with your current pain and your mental anguish.  Living, as I do, in a small community I have no choice but to encounter my ex and her family on an almost weekly basis.  In the mall, in the street, in restaurants, etc.  I'm reminded of what I lost almost every day.  It hurts like hell, doesn't it?

 

My big advantage over you End is the time I've had to heal.

Fourteen years, or thereabouts. Your wounds however are still fresh and red-raw.  I appreciate that.  Yet, you can still find it within yourself to apologize for your bad attitude - as you did a week or two ago.  So, you DO have what it takes to recognize your faults, to be sorry for your behavior and want to make amends for your hasty words.

.

.

.

Now that I've opened up about myself publicly like this, don't **** with me, ok?

 

Lose the attitude and I'll bring you on-board. 

 

Keep it up and you're out!

 

Over to you.

 

BAA

Yeah, you might go back to school on being dismissive of everyone with your knowledge. Feel free to count me out of your out of your proof that you never wanted anyone in. Think about it.