First Question

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

bornagainathiest,

 

The answer is yes you may demonstrate that God does not exists.

 

Thank you for your reply Ironhorse.

 

Please be advised though, that my exact wording was this.

 

"I can demonstrate, using cosmological science, that the Christian god of the Bible cannot be the creator of our universe."

 

I will demonstrate that the content of Genesis 1:1.  ("In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ) is not a true and accurate description of what cosmology has discovered.  Therefore, since the very first verse of the Bible is a demonstrable falsehood, everything that follows, even to the last verse of Revelation, is also false. 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Whew, I'm glad it's all over BAA, we can tell everyone to stop church....it's been figgered out.

 

 

There's no attached to your post End. 

 

So is this just a mischievous (and harmless) one liner or are you venting more attitude, this time in my direction?

 

If it's the former, then no harm done and I accept it in the spirit it was given. 

 

If it's the latter...

 

No BAA, I want to please hear the end all of arguments. Hell, everyone does. Share, share, share. Provide proof please.

 

If you will pose it to one Christian, certainly as a long time resident here you will pose it to me as well?

 

 

 

Most Christians are not interested in the end of all arguments.  They take their religion on faith and stick to it even though it is wrong.

 

The proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, is all the gods and goddesses we have unearthed in archeology.  Almost every ancient culture invented gods.  Gods are man made just like songs are man made.  God is as real as super heros and comic book characters.

 

But most Christians will continue being Christian anyway . . . 

[Bhim]

midniterider,

Yeah, I like that one also. I was in my car the first time I

heard AC, "I'm Eighteen" came blasting on. I connected to

it immediately. Big fan ever since,

 

Fweethawt,

My error on AC twice. I've corrected and added two I meant to

add.

 

Hi Ironhorse, I'm glad you're still active on this forum.  I would appreciate if you could answer various posters' questions, including my own in post 119.

 

I realize you're time limited like the rest of us, but see this from my perspective.  I ask a lot of Christians why I should convert to Christianity (I specifically, not why a generalized individual should be a Christian).  I never get a response.  I point out to Christians that while Luke 14:26 is theoretical to those of you who grow up in Christian families, I really would have to hate my family in order to be a Christian.  I never get a response to this either, and when I talk to Christians in person, they simply respond like robots with a meaningless platitude about Jesus' love.

 

From my perspective, it seems that Christianity is impotent to answer these questions.  I invite you to prove me wrong.

[Voice]

Do you think it's healthy that christians are terrified to think for themselves?

[Voice]

Also, what is your impression of a religion, any religion that imposes threat of death on its subjects?

[RipVanWinkle]

Indeed it has. But that won't matter to Xtians because their heart tells them otherwise and the heart is never wrong.
 
"The heart is deceptive above all things. Who can understand it?"  Jeremiah 17:9 

Bill, that was not ironhorse....end3 sir. 

 

 

==============================================================================================

 

Oops! Sorry. I've got ADD.  bill

[bornagainathiest]

 

I will indeed put my argument to... Ironhorse.

He's an unknown quantity to me, so I'm going to cut him the slack I reckon he deserves.  But I don't like the attitude I see in your posts here.  "The end of all arguments"...etc.   You had no call to write those words...

 

...but they are symptomatic of a long-standing communication problem we've had. 

 

Need I remind you that over the years I've tried to discuss various scriptural matters and scientific matters with you? 

Several times, in fact.  I put in a fair amount of effort into each of them and what happened before we could make any real progress?  What happened each and every time?

 

You blew it.

You didn't have the self-discipline and the staying power needed.  I was casting my pearls before you and you turned and treated them with contempt.  And here we are again.  Once again I'm ready to talk with you in a mature, controlled and adult manner and once again you're displaying the same attitude problem as before.

 

So, here's what'll happen if I don't see you drop the attitude.

.

.

 

 

I'll make my argument to Ironhorse by Private Messaging, copying in anyone who requests it.

You'll have excluded yourself and you'll have nobody but yourself to blame for it.

.

.

.

Btw, I'm a divorced man too.

To a certain degree, I can empathize with your current pain and your mental anguish.  Living, as I do, in a small community I have no choice but to encounter my ex and her family on an almost weekly basis.  In the mall, in the street, in restaurants, etc.  I'm reminded of what I lost almost every day.  It hurts like hell, doesn't it?

 

My big advantage over you End is the time I've had to heal.

Fourteen years, or thereabouts. Your wounds however are still fresh and red-raw.  I appreciate that.  Yet, you can still find it within yourself to apologize for your bad attitude - as you did a week or two ago.  So, you DO have what it takes to recognize your faults, to be sorry for your behavior and want to make amends for your hasty words.

.

.

.

Now that I've opened up about myself publicly like this, don't **** with me, ok?

 

Lose the attitude and I'll bring you on-board. 

 

Keep it up and you're out!

 

Over to you.

 

BAA

Yeah, you might go back to school on being dismissive of everyone with your knowledge.

 

(Sigh.)

How can I be dismissive of... "everyone with my knowledge"...?

For me to be in that position I'd have to know that they... 'have my knowledge'  ...which is an impossibility.    A put down works so much better if it actually makes some kind of sense, End. 

 

Hint:

If you're too angry to type meaningful sentences, don't type anything - it just makes you look worse.

 

Feel free to count me out of your out of your proof that you never wanted anyone in. Think about it.

 

Think about it?  Really?

Well you clearly didn't think AT ALL before you typed out your inaccurate and nonsensical response.

 

Rhetorical Question:

If I never wanted anyone in on it, why would I ask Ironhorse three times, if he wanted me to go ahead with it? 

So that's a false accusation on your part and inaccurate reporting of my posts.

 

Also, I never called my argument a proof.

That's another falsehood and inaccuracy on your part.

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

I'll be contacting you via the Private Messaging system to continue our dialog.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

To anyone else interested in the content of my private dialog with Ironhorse...

 

Please notify me of your interest privately.

 

When Ironhorse and I are done, I'll copy you in on what passed between us.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[GraphicsGuy]

Reply with one question.

Ex Christians, atheist, agnostics, Christians, seekers, all welcome.

 

Why are you here?

[Guest end3]

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

[MerryG]

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

 

 

End3, it's sort of ironic to hear one of Ex-C's resident christians say that. Because virtually every christian proselytizer who enters this place absolutely refuses to listen to anyone else's point of view or consider resources others link to. I've never seen one take the time to understand where we're coming from -- or to pay attention even when we try to explain that we've already been there and done that. They enter this forum with an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude -- and they keep that attitude until they get kicked out or storm out.

 

They're so arrogant and unwilling to hear us that one of the things they've become notorious for is constantly mis-reading posts. (Yes, anybody can do that and a few have lately with your posts. But with our christian preachermen, it's endemic. They just don't think they have to pay any attention to us; they're so superior we simply don't count, except as "lost sheep" to be won back to god.)

 

I don't think you're like that. But in my year of experience here, you're the only christian who actually seems to listen, even as you respectfully agree to disagree. The others are all guilty of the "sin" you write about above.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

 

 

End3, it's sort of ironic to hear one of Ex-C's resident christians say that. Because virtually every christian proselytizer who enters this place absolutely refuses to listen to anyone else's point of view or consider resources others link to. I've never seen one take the time to understand where we're coming from -- or to pay attention even when we try to explain that we've already been there and done that. They enter this forum with an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude -- and they keep that attitude until they get kicked out or storm out.

 

They're so arrogant and unwilling to hear us that one of the things they've become notorious for is constantly mis-reading posts. (Yes, anybody can do that and a few have lately with your posts. But with our christian preachermen, it's endemic. They just don't think they have to pay any attention to us; they're so superior we simply don't count, except as "lost sheep" to be won back to god.)

 

I don't think you're like that. But in my year of experience here, you're the only christian who actually seems to listen, even as you respectfully agree to disagree. The others are all guilty of the "sin" you write about above.

 

Thank Merry, Just now starting to understand the difference in how I was raised vs. how I would like to treat others......seen and not heard vs. heard and loved. Thanks again.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

 

 

Nope.  I'm sorry End, but I won't sit out of this thread while you write something about me that's totally false.

 

Look at Ironhorse's opening post.

 

"I'm new. I'm glad I found this forum.

I've spent some time reading the threads in the Lion's Den, but

instead of jumping in on those I would begin by starting my first thread.

 

Reply with one question.

Ex Christians, atheist, agnostics, Christians, seekers, all welcome."

 

The man set down his terms in b&w.

He had nothing to say.  There was nothing that he might say.  He wasn't going to say anything at all.  His post was not about anything he had to say nor anything he might say.  He didn't want the opportunity to be heard about anything.  He didn't want a place or stage. 

 

Got that?

 

Therefore, the problem you have with me is based on your faulty understanding of this premise of this thread. 

You don't have a problem with me not being interested in what Ironhorse had to say because he wasn't going to say anything. 

 

"Reply with one question."

 

Those were Ironhorse's exact words.

It was an invitation extended to all, without conditions.  An invitiation to ask him one question.  He did not specify in any way what that question should be. 

 

So are clear on what you've done in your last post to me?

 

In Biblical parlance, you've bourne false witness against me. 

You claim to have a grievance, but that grievance is based on a falsehood - an error on your part.  A failure to look and check before typing.  Don't do that again!

 

You've already misquoted in this thread and I've had to correct you over it.

Don't do that again either!

 

I'm within my rights to ask to you apologize and to retract your comments, but I won't do so.  Instead I'll extend you some compassion - you are clearly out of control right now and unable to think or write anything clearly.

 

BAA

[Guest end3]

 

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

 

 

Nope.  I'm sorry End, but I won't sit out of this thread while you write something about me that's totally false.

 

Look at Ironhorse's opening post.

 

"I'm new. I'm glad I found this forum.

I've spent some time reading the threads in the Lion's Den, but

instead of jumping in on those I would begin by starting my first thread.

 

Reply with one question.

Ex Christians, atheist, agnostics, Christians, seekers, all welcome."

 

The man set down his terms in b&w.

He had nothing to say.  There was nothing that he might say.  He wasn't going to say anything at all.  His post was not about anything he had to say nor anything he might say.  He didn't want the opportunity to be heard about anything.  He didn't want a place or stage. 

 

Got that?

 

Therefore, the problem you have with me is based on your faulty understanding of this premise of this thread. 

You don't have a problem with me not being interested in what Ironhorse had to say because he wasn't going to say anything. 

 

"Reply with one question."

 

Those were Ironhorse's exact words.

It was an invitation extended to all, without conditions.  An invitiation to ask him one question.  He did not specify in any way what that question should be. 

 

So are clear on what you've done in your last post to me?

 

In Biblical parlance, you've bourne false witness against me. 

You claim to have a grievance, but that grievance is based on a falsehood - an error on your part.  A failure to look and check before typing.  Don't do that again!

 

You've already misquoted in this thread and I've had to correct you over it.

Don't do that again either!

 

I'm within my rights to ask to you apologize and to retract your comments, but I won't do so.  Instead I'll extend you some compassion - you are clearly out of control right now and unable to think or write anything clearly.

 

BAA

 

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Well End, you've fucked up... again.

 

So, as promised - I'm out of this thread.

The problem I have with you BAA is you are not interested in hearing what the man might say but proving he is wrong. It reeks of bad form. Everyone should have the opportunity to be heard. Even if they are in a different place, we ALL have been in a place or stage. Again, it's not my attitude, but my lack of Grace that overwhelms my Godliness in your case.

 

And you might be surprised how this same "hear me/individual relationship/love" concept is similar in SO many different disciplines.

 

 

Nope.  I'm sorry End, but I won't sit out of this thread while you write something about me that's totally false.

 

Look at Ironhorse's opening post.

 

"I'm new. I'm glad I found this forum.

I've spent some time reading the threads in the Lion's Den, but

instead of jumping in on those I would begin by starting my first thread.

 

Reply with one question.

Ex Christians, atheist, agnostics, Christians, seekers, all welcome."

 

The man set down his terms in b&w.

He had nothing to say.  There was nothing that he might say.  He wasn't going to say anything at all.  His post was not about anything he had to say nor anything he might say.  He didn't want the opportunity to be heard about anything.  He didn't want a place or stage. 

 

Got that?

 

Therefore, the problem you have with me is based on your faulty understanding of this premise of this thread. 

You don't have a problem with me not being interested in what Ironhorse had to say because he wasn't going to say anything. 

 

"Reply with one question."

 

Those were Ironhorse's exact words.

It was an invitation extended to all, without conditions.  An invitiation to ask him one question.  He did not specify in any way what that question should be. 

 

So are clear on what you've done in your last post to me?

 

In Biblical parlance, you've bourne false witness against me. 

You claim to have a grievance, but that grievance is based on a falsehood - an error on your part.  A failure to look and check before typing.  Don't do that again!

 

You've already misquoted in this thread and I've had to correct you over it.

Don't do that again either!

 

I'm within my rights to ask to you apologize and to retract your comments, but I won't do so.  Instead I'll extend you some compassion - you are clearly out of control right now and unable to think or write anything clearly.

 

BAA

 

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

 

 

Very well, End.

 

To add to your attitude problem, your bearing of false witness against and your misquoting of me - you now accuse me of lacking grace.

 

The easiest way to settle this is for me to ask Ironhorse two questions.

First, does he think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog (his and mine, that is)...?

Second, if he thinks it is, did I extend enough grace to him in this dialog?

 

If you won't accept what I've got to say to you, let's see if you'll accept the words of a fellow Christian.

 

BAA

[Bhim]

End, you seem to realize that parts of God's word require fixing. How, then, can they be the breath of God? Be careful, because Christians have a habit of devouring one another and I wouldn't be surprised if one of the more committed Christians here comes to do so.

 

Idle commentary on my part, feel free to respond or not. Personally I think it's the New Testament that needs fixing anyway.

[bornagainathiest]

End3 wrote...

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

 

Very well, End.

 

To add to your attitude problem, your bearing of false witness against and your misquoting of me - you now accuse me of lacking grace.

 

The easiest way to settle this is for me to ask Ironhorse two questions.

First, does he think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog (his and mine, that is)...?

Second, if he thinks it is, did I extend enough grace to him in this dialog?

 

If you won't accept what I've got to say to you, let's see if you'll accept the words of a fellow Christian.

 

BAA

 

 

Sorry about this Ironhorse, but can you please resolve the issue between End3 and myself?

 

Do you think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog in this thread?

 

If so, have I extended sufficient grace to you and acted graciously towards you in this thread?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

 

 

End3 wrote...

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

 

 

Very well, End.

 

To add to your attitude problem, your bearing of false witness against and your misquoting of me - you now accuse me of lacking grace.

 

The easiest way to settle this is for me to ask Ironhorse two questions.

First, does he think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog (his and mine, that is)...?

Second, if he thinks it is, did I extend enough grace to him in this dialog?

 

If you won't accept what I've got to say to you, let's see if you'll accept the words of a fellow Christian.

 

BAA

 

 

Sorry about this Ironhorse, but can you please resolve the issue between End3 and myself?

 

Do you think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog in this thread?

 

If so, have I extended sufficient grace to you and acted graciously towards you in this thread?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Jesus BAA, leave the poor guy out of this whacky shit. Please by all means carry on with y'alls conversation. I will exhume what I need about your cosmological proof from the sidelines.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

End3 wrote...

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

 

 

Very well, End.

 

To add to your attitude problem, your bearing of false witness against and your misquoting of me - you now accuse me of lacking grace.

 

The easiest way to settle this is for me to ask Ironhorse two questions.

First, does he think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog (his and mine, that is)...?

Second, if he thinks it is, did I extend enough grace to him in this dialog?

 

If you won't accept what I've got to say to you, let's see if you'll accept the words of a fellow Christian.

 

BAA

 

 

Sorry about this Ironhorse, but can you please resolve the issue between End3 and myself?

 

Do you think that the issue of grace is at all relevant to our dialog in this thread?

 

If so, have I extended sufficient grace to you and acted graciously towards you in this thread?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Jesus BAA, leave the poor guy out of this whacky shit. Please by all means carry on with y'alls conversation. I will exhume what I need about your cosmological proof from the sidelines.

 

 

No!

You've wronged me. 

 

I'm not a Christian, End.

I'm under no obligation to turn the other cheek and just take all the shit you've handed out to me recently.

 

You've lied about me, misrepresented me and badmouthed me and you seem to think that you have some sort of 'right' to get away with this? 

You seem to think that by asking you to own up to your bad form, somehow this makes me the bad person?

That somehow, you're the injured party, because I'm asking you to do the right and proper thing?

That I should just expect this crap and give you a free pass... because it's you?

 

 

 

Nope!

It's about time you took some responsibility for your actions in this forum. 

Over the years I've cut you chance after chance, break after break and more slack than your actions and your attitude have warranted. 

 

Well, I've had enough!

 

BAA

[falemon]

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

Have you met with Jews who have explained law. It's not what you think (or at least what you and most of christdom describe). You do have the instructions of sacrifice that were given with the law. That of course has been done away with with christianity, but also within Judaism, which is why you don't see sacrifices.

 

Now just FYI, they don't believe in dogma. The law for them is just a firm set of core values, and their interest in it has always been in providing a very simple guide to living a just life, which you must understand is not achieved just with grace. People have a tendency to be incredibly short sighted, and worse, our ignorance causes us to make many decisions that increase avoidable conflict. On top of that we have a propensity for arguing our case devoid of logic.

 

The jews responded to this by creating a system, which is what the legal system of the west is based on, for cataloguing cases of justice and also good conduct for living good. Their approach has created a living and breathing system of philosophising that, I reiterate, formed the foundations of the legal systems we use today (which is why it is no surprise they dominate the legal field).

 

Their practice teaches a great level of critical thinking, something which is discouraged in christianity

[Guest end3]

 

Your post reminds me of the OT....rigid letter of the Law. Grace came and fixed that brother, but not with you apparently.

Have you met with Jews who have explained law. It's not what you think (or at least what you and most of christdom describe). You do have the instructions of sacrifice that were given with the law. That of course has been done away with with christianity, but also within Judaism, which is why you don't see sacrifices.

 

Now just FYI, they don't believe in dogma. The law for them is just a firm set of core values, and their interest in it has always been in providing a very simple guide to living a just life, which you must understand is not achieved just with grace. People have a tendency to be incredibly short sighted, and worse, our ignorance causes us to make many decisions that increase avoidable conflict. On top of that we have a propensity for arguing our case devoid of logic.

 

The jews responded to this by creating a system, which is what the legal system of the west is based on, for cataloguing cases of justice and also good conduct for living good. Their approach has created a living and breathing system of philosophising that, I reiterate, formed the foundations of the legal systems we use today (which is why it is no surprise they dominate the legal field).

 

Their practice teaches a great level of critical thinking, something which is discouraged in christianity

 

Thanks, sounds reasonable. True, my impression of the OT is based on my personal interpretation.

[falemon]

Thanks, sounds reasonable. True, my impression of the OT is based on my personal interpretation.

Well in all fairness the OT is only a small portion of the full picture and it doesn't help that we are taught mistruths about the faith.

 

Note also that there is no eternal hell in Judaism, that concept arrived with christianity, which I'm sure you know. So the law wasn't even about saving people from hell, but firstly you just have a legal system, as in, "manslaughter will not be punished like murder, but if the family may avenge unless the man seeks refuge in exile for 7 years", etc. And as you know that law included social customs with regards to cleanliness. That system has saved the Jewish people from famines to the point that since they were the only people not affected they were blamed for causing it, contributing to some anti semitism within Europe.

 

They do still keep the whole of the ten commandments, which is also upheld in christianity (except for the day of rest).

[Bhim]

They do still keep the whole of the ten commandments, which is also upheld in christianity (except for the day of rest).

 

 

Not trying to be difficult, but if we had any Jewish posters here they'd probably argue that Christians do not in fact keep the first two commandments, because their worship of Jesus constitutes 1.) Worship of gods besides the Israelite God and 2.) The use of a carved image, namely Jesus, to depict the Israelite God.  They'd perhaps also point out that the sacrifice of Jesus violates the Torah's command against human sacrifice.

 

When I was a Christian I argued fervently against Jews, defending against the charge that my religion was idolatry.  At the time, I'm pretty sure even I didn't buy my own arguments.

[Bhim]

Ironhorse, I don't believe I ever saw a response to my comments in post 119.  Did you post one?  Because if so, I've missed it.

 

I'm starting to become pessimistic about your invitation to dialog.  Christians never answer questions such as mine.  You seem ready to debate apologetics and philosophy, and you have a million reasons why I should believe the logic, "the earth is 6,000 years old, therefore you'll go to eternal hell unless you believe in Jesus."  But when I ask a query relating to how conversion to Christianity would negatively affect my life, Christians seem to have no response.

 

I will PM you another reminder.

[falemon]

Haha, good point!