There Is No Justice In The Christian Concept Of Heaven And Hell

[ironhorse]

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

"Ironhorse you are saying we have personalities in Heaven. Satan had his own personality and sinned in Heaven so their must be some kind of free will to sin and defy God."

 

afireinside, I just read what you said after I posted the following....

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

[TrueFreedom]

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

 

Again, chapter and verse, please.

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

Why then the need for "the tree" in the beginning?

 

Why not allow us the same safeguarding as we, according to your theology, have in Heaven.

 

Either we are ROBOTS as in the defense of God by evangelicals in making us prone to sin or we aren't robots and have individual choices and opens the door to falling.

[Guest afireinside]

And please explain how lucifer fell in that atmosphere of inability to be influenced by sin! Not just him but 1/3 of all the angels according to the Bible

[mymistake]

When Pharaoh wanted to let the Hebrews go God hardened Pharoh's heart preventing him from exercising his free will.  But that must have been okay because God was looking for an excuse to make millions of innocent people suffer and to kill the first born of everybody - including the helpless slaves.

 

And also Jesus was perfectly willing to appear to Thomas and Paul so it isn't against the rules for Jesus to appear to people in order to give them real evidence that Jesus is real and rose from the dead.  Jesus should do the same for everybody who is headed for Hell.  If Jesus knows it would save just one more soul and Jesus doesn't do it then this proves Jesus is evil.  (Or maybe Jesus doesn't exist!)

[ironhorse]

 

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

 

Again, chapter and verse, please.

 

 

 

Why don't you post the chapters and verses to disprove what I stated?

[Guest afireinside]

Why the double standards Ironhorse?

 

If God is always the same he wouldn't change anything from the time of Lucifers fall.

 

Just as an aside, I always got confused when I read Revelation and it said Satan will be let loose after 1,000 years. Why would God allow that?

[Pantophobia]

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

 

God took the risk when he created humans with free will. 

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

 

 

Er... in heaven, we'll get to eat a lot? No, actually, the bible mentions in a couple places in the NT that we won't have these kinds of earthly/bodily needs, and I learned at my church that all of our physical needs would be met in heaven. So know what that means? No eating, no sleeping. No sex. Considering my idea of heaven is a gluttonous gourmet meal, a nap, and a naked frolic, the lack of all of these things is unappealing. 

 

And your idea that in heaven, everyone will be concert pianists is as much a fairy tale as anything else. Dude. Do you even read the book you claim to know so well? Heaven is supposedly being constantly in the awe-inspiring presence of God, being reunited with (select) loved ones, understanding God's omniscience, and pretty much just worshipping. There is nothing in biblical doctrine about performing in a heavenly jam-session.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

 

Again, chapter and verse, please.

 

 

 

Why don't you post the chapters and verses to disprove what I stated?

 

 

 

Same reason you can't post the chapter and verse that proves Jesus was not a dinosaur.

 

Sure it doesn't make sense to human minds.  How can somebody be all God, all man and all raptor at the same time?  With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible.

 

 

(Except for a few limited situations we can't prove a negative.  However one of the few times we can is with God.  We can prove that God of the Bible isn't real)

[Guest afireinside]

Too much flip-floppery for me.

 

The Bible is either right or it's wrong. You can't go adding your own dynamics to things like Heaven. The Heaven described in the Bible is lame so to not think it's lame we'd need to be zombies basically. Enjoy life on this Earth Ironhorse, it's as good as it gets.

[Kris]

You know what has always bothered me--- there is a scripture in the bible that states god will deceive the very elect that they will believe a lie. Now if a person is deceived by a being that is supposedly so much smarter than them--- why should that person be held accountable? Why should they go to hell? Why would god even do something like that. And where is the free will?

[Roz]

Atheist:  Ironhorse, show me in that book you follow where your idea of heaven came from.  Are you really practicing what that book says or just pulling stuff out of your arse?

 

Ironhorse:  Well show me in this book that I follow where it contradicts my words!

 

I've seen half dead goats put up a better defense that that when they're about to become lion food.

[xtify]

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

 

God took the risk when he created humans with free will. 

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

 

 

Will there be virgin girls for the martyrs, too?  

 

If something is bad on Earth, why would it be allowed in heaven?  God supposedly can't be around evil, so if something is too bad for God to allow on earth, then why would he allow it in his presence?

 

It all boils down to wishful thinking... nothing more.  

Ironhorse, I feel bad for you that you need this crutch.  The whole concept of heaven cheapens the beauty of the only life you will ever have.

[Overcame Faith]

Whatever your view of heaven, why is it just for a Christian to go there when a Muslim who feeds the poor, helps the elderly, cares for the sick, comforts those in pain, and houses the homeless goes to hell?

[Guest afireinside]

Whatever your view of heaven, why is it just for a Christian to go there when a Muslim who feeds the poor, helps the elderly, cares for the sick, comforts those in pain, and houses the homeless goes to hell?

Legal loopholes get Christians into Heaven not good character

[bornagainathiest]

 

Where are we getting the oil and the ivory from?

 

 

I'm attempting to make a point here. 

...if you will kindly play along

 

 

Which one would you choose?

 

 

Ficino and I have been attempting to get you to answer some questions, Ironhorse.

 

Will you kindly play along?

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

 

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

God took the risk when he created humans with free will.

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

Will there be virgin girls for the martyrs, too?

 

If something is bad on Earth, why would it be allowed in heaven? God supposedly can't be around evil, so if something is too bad for God to allow on earth, then why would he allow it in his presence?

 

It all boils down to wishful thinking... nothing more.

Ironhorse, I feel bad for you that you need this crutch. The whole concept of heaven cheapens the beauty of the only life you will ever have.

I agree xtify. I feel for Ironhorse that he has to create his own version of Heaven because the Bibles version doesn't appeal to him or make logical sense.

 

Ironhorse, enjoy your life bro, you sound like a nice, caring guy and it's a bit sad you want to defend things you can't explain(they are unexplainable).

 

I struggled with these questions, that's why I no longer believe. Credit to you for trying, but you cannot defend the idea of Heaven/hell-nobody can-not you, not CS Lewis, not Chuck Missler, not the Bible.

[TrueFreedom]

 

 

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

 

Again, chapter and verse, please.

 

 

 

Why don't you post the chapters and verses to disprove what I stated?

 

I could quote verses regarding election, but I don't know of any verses pro or con people choosing not to go to heaven.  How could anyone believe that people would choose to be tormented for eternity when they could choose paradise?  That's a preposterous idea.

[Kris]

Ironhorse--- I mentioned that there are a few scriptures in 2Thessalonisns that talk about the man of lawlessness and people who follow him. Instead of god trying to save these poor evil souls-- he gets in in the action and "sends a strong delusion so that they believe the lie". Basically sealing their fate. Even if they are bad people--- what gives god the right to do such a thing? Doesn't that make god just as evil? And why should they suffer in hell forever because they believed a lie that god created? And why is god lying in the first place.-- I thought he was above all that.

[ironhorse]

You know what has always bothered me--- there is a scripture in the bible that states god will deceive the very elect that they will believe a lie. Now if a person is deceived by a being that is supposedly so much smarter than them--- why should that person be held accountable? Why should they go to hell? Why would god even do something like that. And where is the free will?

 

I agree those are troubling and difficult scriptures. 

 

They can be explained. Here is a good look at these

passages and what they mean.

 

 

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/589-does-god-send-delusions-can-a-person-harden-himself-beyond-hope

 

By Wayne Jackson

 

“And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to naught by the manifestation of his coming; even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2Thes. 2:8-12 ASV).

 

In this context, the apostle speaks of a coming defection from the original New Testament pattern of Christianity. In connection therewith, he addresses the kind of disposition that is a prelude to apostasy. For example, he speaks of that mental attitude that does not embrace a “love of the truth;” rather, it takes “pleasure in unrighteousness.” This reveals a character that is incredibly resistant to the will of God.

 

The Strong Delusion

 

Now to the first question, in what sense may God be said to “send a strong delusion,” or a “working of error” (ASV)? Clearly the statement is not to be taken literally. Such a view would contradict what we know regarding the qualities of our great and loving God. Jehovah is a God of goodness (Acts 14:17; Jas. 1:17) and truth (Dt. 32:4); he cannot do that which is a violation of his own nature (cf. Tit. 1:2; Heb. 6:18). One must, therefore, look for another explanation for the language employed in this controversial passage.

It is fairly well known among advanced Bible students that there is a common idiom (figure of speech) in sacred literature, by which God is said to actively do that which, in reality, he merely allows in human beings — to whom he has granted freedom of will. Consider a few examples.

 

(1) Concerning Pharaoh, the Lord said: "I will harden his heart. . . " (Ex. 4:21). Elsewhere, however, we learn that the Egyptian monarch hardened his own heart (cf. 8:15). The solution to the seeming conflict lies in the fact that God made demands upon the ruler that he resisted, and, exercising his own stubborn will (cf. 7:14), he refused to obey Jehovah. Pharaoh actively hardened his conscience; God permitted it, i.e., did not overrule the king’s power of choice, thus, in a figurative sense, the Lord was said to be the cause.

 

(2) Ezekiel represents Jehovah as saying, “I gave them [the Hebrew people] statues that were not good” (20:25). In the larger context of the passage, the meaning is this: “When my people became determined not to listen to my law, I permitted them to follow the ways of paganism. They chose wickedness, I honored the exercise of their volition.” This is precisely the sentiment of the following passage. “So I let them go after the stubbornness of their heart, that they might walk in their own counsels” (Psa. 81:12). This puts the issue in balance.

 

(3) Jeremiah laments: “Lord God, surely you have deceived this people” (Jer. 4:10). Again, the meaning literally is this: “The people were determined to follow lying ways; you let them proceed.” Sometimes the only way folks can learn is by being allowed to drink the bitter dregs of their own concoctions.

 

(4) Christ taught his disciples to petition God, “Lead us not into temptation” (Mt. 6:13). Clearly God does not “lead” people into temptation (cf. Jas. 1:13-14). The sense of Matthew 6:13, therefore, would seem to be this: “Father, do not permit us to be overcome by temptation.” Sometimes the active voice is put for the passive for emphasis sake.

In his exhaustive discussion of biblical idioms, James Macknight has observed: “Active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (Apostolical Epistles, Nashville: Gospel Advocate, 1954, p. 29).

[TrueFreedom]

Oh, so we all must be apostate because we wanted to sin rather than follow the truth.

[Roz]

There are many many religions that claim "man's natural tendency is to deviate from what we say as the truth."

 

The real irony is that the atheists are mostly the ones valuing truth above all else.  For example we're not like you, the christian, who cherry picks verses and passages, and then gives his interpretation on the things he can't quote.  We're not going to allow, as christians do, the glossing over of the god of the old testament and his many many crimes against humanity.

 

You're quite satisfied with your version of christianity, and you use this lions' den to preach your flavor of the gospel of christ.

I'm happy we can continually pick apart what you say and reveal to the onlookers just how flimsy your arguments are.

[francesco]

When bible fit my views: it's literal

When bible does not fit my view : it's figurative

[Kris]

Wow--- ironhorse! I think you are the one on the delusional path. All of the verses you quoted are examples of god getting involved and being mean to people-- yet you find justification in it. There is none. This is like a parent forbidding a child to drink and then buying him a bottle of booze to drink just so he can punish the child. God is an evil asshole.

[Roz]

Now to the first question, in what sense may God be said to “send a strong delusion,” or a “working of error” (ASV)? Clearly the statement is not to be taken literally. Such a view would contradict what we know regarding the qualities of our great and loving God. Jehovah is a God of goodness (Acts 14:17; Jas. 1:17) and truth (Dt. 32:4); he cannot do that which is a violation of his own nature (cf. Tit. 1:2; Heb. 6:18).

 

Because god is good, all of those acts which make him seem barbaric can't be taken literally.  Hmmmmmm. 

 

Let's review Lev. 25, shall we?

25 The Lord said to Moses at Mount Sinai, ² “Speak to the Israelites and say to them:

---Got it, this is the lord talking to Moses commanding him to speak to the nation concerning his commands

 

²³ “‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers. ²⁴ Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.

---Check, this is a clear directive from god that land must NOT be sold PERMANENTLY

 

²⁵ “‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold. ²⁶ If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves, ²⁷ they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property. ²⁸ But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property.

---Check.  Land can't be sold permanently.  Thanks, god.  You clarified that one.

 

²⁹ “‘Anyone who sells a house in a walled city retains the right of redemption a full year after its sale. During that time the seller may redeem it. ³⁰ If it is not redeemed before a full year has passed, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer and the buyer’s descendants. It is not to be returned in the Jubilee.

---Check.  God's caveat.  City property can be sold permanently if it's not bought back within 1 year.  Such clear and precise directions from yaweh/jesus/allah

 

³⁹ “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. ⁴⁰ They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. ⁴¹ Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. ⁴² Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. ⁴³ Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

---Yay jesus.  See?  Isrealites can't be treated as slaves.  They're not to become permanent property.

 

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. ⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

---So sayeth the Ironhorse, that because these passages make god into a slaver, he's painted as mean, cruel, inhuman.  That can't happen!  So 44-46 must NOT be taken literally!  Yay jesus!  Wow being an apologist is so damn easy.