There Is No Justice In The Christian Concept Of Heaven And Hell

[TheRedneckProfessor]

In this context, the apostle speaks of a coming defection from the original New Testament pattern of Christianity.

A "defection" which has resulted in 41,000 different ways of practicing True Christianity^TM and counting...

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

Duuude! That's not scriptural.

 

If God allowed us the potential to fall and sin the first time he MUST allow that again or take away all power of choice and individuality

 

What do you think about when you're in Heaven and there's billions of people in pain in hell?

 

 

My view of Heaven is scriptural. Our tendency (nature) to be influence by sin will be removed.

 

Should God deny free will to those who do not want this sin removed and drag them kicking and

screaming into Heaven?

 

Again, chapter and verse, please.

 

 

 

Why don't you post the chapters and verses to disprove what I stated?

 

This poster Ironhorse made a mere assertion and when asked to provide Scriptural evidence by TrueFreedom his response is, 'Prove me wong.'

 

Ironhorse either (i) does not understand or know about the burden of proof in rational discourse or (ii) he understands and knows the burden of proof and thinks it doesn't apply to him.

 

This makes him willfully ignorant or a cheater.

[mymistake]

 

You know what has always bothered me--- there is a scripture in the bible that states god will deceive the very elect that they will believe a lie. Now if a person is deceived by a being that is supposedly so much smarter than them--- why should that person be held accountable? Why should they go to hell? Why would god even do something like that. And where is the free will?

 

I agree those are troubling and difficult scriptures. 

 

They can be explained. Here is a good look at these

passages and what they mean.

 

 

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/589-does-god-send-delusions-can-a-person-harden-himself-beyond-hope

 

By Wayne Jackson

 

 

(snip)

Clearly the statement is not to be taken literally. Such a view would contradict what we know regarding the qualities of our great and loving God.

 

 

 

Oh it only seems like a contradiction until you pretend one of them doesn't really mean what it says.

 

Where else can we get away with such dishonesty?

[xtify]

[AJG]

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

 

God took the risk when he created humans with free will. 

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

 

 

How can there be free will in heaven without the opportunity to sin?  I thought God couldn't show his love to his creation without giving them the freedom to reject him.  If that's true, then is God not allowing people in heaven to love him freely?  Are they just automatons?  And if we could have free will without sin in heaven why did God go through the whole pointless exercise of creating humans on earth where we have free will with sin?  Does any of this make a bit of sense?  Are you just making shit up on the fly?

[RipVanWinkle]

"In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin." ironhorse

 

He didn't take a risk. He knew the future when he created us. He knew exactly what he was doing and couldn't wait to begin the torture.

 

On the other hand if he didn't know what He was doing, that means He still doesn't know what he's doing. So good luck with that heaven thing. You can't have it both ways.  bill 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

 

God took the risk when he created humans with free will. 

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

 

 

How can there be free will in heaven without the opportunity to sin?  I thought God couldn't show his love to his creation without giving them the freedom to reject him.  If that's true, then is God not allowing people in heaven to love him freely?  Are they just automatons?  And if we could have free will without sin in heaven why did God go through the whole pointless exercise of creating humans on earth where we have free will with sin?  Does any of this make a bit of sense?  Are you just making shit up on the fly?

 

I would hazard the guess that by "free will in heaven" one would be free to chose which part of the trinity to worship on any given day.  Say on Tuesday you want to kiss the father's ass but Wednesday is blow the holy spirit day.

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

 

 

Soooooo......we get to choose what to do and when to do it? Sounds risky to me. Wonder how long until some idiot eats an apple?

God took the risk when he created humans with free will.

 

In Heaven we will still have free will but without the presence of sin.

 

Apple eating Heaven will be allowed. Apples and a lot of great food.

How can there be free will in heaven without the opportunity to sin? I thought God couldn't show his love to his creation without giving them the freedom to reject him. If that's true, then is God not allowing people in heaven to love him freely? Are they just automatons? And if we could have free will without sin in heaven why did God go through the whole pointless exercise of creating humans on earth where we have free will with sin? Does any of this make a bit of sense? Are you just making shit up on the fly?

Exactly AJG.

 

Heaven is either a place of bleak repetition or a place where few will exists and therefore citizens of Heaven run the risk of falling into sin. If there was a way that God could construct an atmosphere where we could make choices but not choose to defy him then why the fuck not implement that in the Garden of Eden!.

 

Like I said Lucifer and his Angels fell so I doubt people in Heaven would be exempt, you can't ignore that evidence and make up assumptions to the contrary.

[mwc]

     If you're in heaven and you're going to sin you just believe in the crucified jesus again and that fixes everything.  It works time and time again.  Unfortunately for satan and friends only uncrucified jesus was available when they sinned and that guy's useless.  Crucified or nothing.

 

          mwc

[Guest afireinside]

If you're in heaven and you're going to sin you just believe in the crucified jesus again and that fixes everything. It works time and time again. Unfortunately for satan and friends only uncrucified jesus was available when they sinned and that guy's useless. Crucified or nothing.

 

mwc

Oh yeah mwc I forgot about post life justification. We can rape and murder and burn down other saints mansions and steal bricks off streets of gold to pay for our meth habit and it's all covered.....nice.

 

Pre-Jesus people? All in hell?

 

No justification for them? Or salvation by works?

 

Chinese, Celtic pagans and all outside Jewish tradition pre-Jesus all damned?

 

No salvation for Gods angels? Why not?

 

Too many questions and no answers other than man made speculations.

 

Heaven is one of 3 things:

 

Boring

 

Dangerous

 

Non-existent

 

Which one is it Ironhorse?

[mwc]

     We know heaven is non-existent because the Book of Revelation says so.  It flat out tells us that there is a new heaven and new earth and that the new kingdom is setup on the new earth.  No dogs, or anythings else, goes to heaven.  Period.  End of story.  The judgment occurs and everyone winds up back on earth.

 

     Now, some delusion xians imagine that when they die they go to heaven, or hell, then the judgment comes then they go to this new earth.  But how stupid is that?  What good is judgment if you have a pre-judgment judgment?  If you go to heaven you're obviously good and likewise if you go to hell you're obviously bad.  You're not going to heaven, living with god, then winding up getting cut from the team or going to hell then getting to go hang out with god forever.  It never says anything of the kind.  The parable of rich man and Lazarus hints at this.  Good guys stay good guy and bad guys stay bad guys once you're dead.

 

     The Revelation also tells us people come up from the oceans for judgment so it's not like you die and go to the ocean.  So heaven, hell or ocean.  That's absurd.  It means no one goes to heaven.  It also means that the new earth is full of sketchy characters.  Just read the Revelation after the lake of fire goes away.  There are still people "without" (outside the city) that don't believe in god and do all sorts of bad things.  The brave new world is kind of crappy.

 

     Oh well.  I hear you have all eternity to learn the piano.  I guess the place is full of slow learners.

 

          mwc

[Guest afireinside]

We know heaven is non-existent because the Book of Revelation says so. It flat out tells us that there is a new heaven and new earth and that the new kingdom is setup on the new earth. No dogs, or anythings else, goes to heaven. Period. End of story. The judgment occurs and everyone winds up back on earth.

 

Now, some delusion xians imagine that when they die they go to heaven, or hell, then the judgment comes then they go to this new earth. But how stupid is that? What good is judgment if you have a pre-judgment judgment? If you go to heaven you're obviously good and likewise if you go to hell you're obviously bad. You're not going to heaven, living with god, then winding up getting cut from the team or going to hell then getting to go hang out with god forever. It never says anything of the kind. The parable of rich man and Lazarus hints at this. Good guys stay good guy and bad guys stay bad guys once you're dead.

 

The Revelation also tells us people come up from the oceans for judgment so it's not like you die and go to the ocean. So heaven, hell or ocean. That's absurd. It means no one goes to heaven. It also means that the new earth is full of sketchy characters. Just read the Revelation after the lake of fire goes away. There are still people "without" (outside the city) that don't believe in god and do all sorts of bad things. The brave new world is kind of crappy.

 

Oh well. I hear you have all eternity to learn the piano. I guess the place is full of slow learners.

 

mwc

mwc I don't read the Bible these days but as far as the new earth goes I remember a segment of revelation where God allows Satan back on earth again. Why?

[mymistake]

 

We know heaven is non-existent because the Book of Revelation says so. It flat out tells us that there is a new heaven and new earth and that the new kingdom is setup on the new earth. No dogs, or anythings else, goes to heaven. Period. End of story. The judgment occurs and everyone winds up back on earth.

 

Now, some delusion xians imagine that when they die they go to heaven, or hell, then the judgment comes then they go to this new earth. But how stupid is that? What good is judgment if you have a pre-judgment judgment? If you go to heaven you're obviously good and likewise if you go to hell you're obviously bad. You're not going to heaven, living with god, then winding up getting cut from the team or going to hell then getting to go hang out with god forever. It never says anything of the kind. The parable of rich man and Lazarus hints at this. Good guys stay good guy and bad guys stay bad guys once you're dead.

 

The Revelation also tells us people come up from the oceans for judgment so it's not like you die and go to the ocean. So heaven, hell or ocean. That's absurd. It means no one goes to heaven. It also means that the new earth is full of sketchy characters. Just read the Revelation after the lake of fire goes away. There are still people "without" (outside the city) that don't believe in god and do all sorts of bad things. The brave new world is kind of crappy.

 

Oh well. I hear you have all eternity to learn the piano. I guess the place is full of slow learners.

 

mwc

mwc I don't read the Bible these days but as far as the new earth goes I remember a segment of revelation where God allows Satan back on earth again. Why?

 

 

 

Because you can't have a comic book without a villain.  That is why the Joker keeps escaping from prison no matter how often Batman catches him.

[Guest afireinside]

Hmmm seems like it will be a case of history repeating.

[mwc]

mwc I don't read the Bible these days but as far as the new earth goes I remember a segment of revelation where God allows Satan back on earth again. Why?

 

     The bible is very clear on this.

 

     Satan is put into a pit for a thousand years.  So they have the technology.  And it says this happens so he cannot deceive the nations any longer.  But the caveat at this point is that he must be let out again.  Why?  It doesn't say.  It just has to happen.

 

     Now there's a resurrection and a thousand years of nonsense.

 

     So once the time passes  satan is let out of the pit.  Why?  To deceive the nations.  Why?  Well, it has to happen.  We know this because it said so when they tossed him in the pit.  You were paying attention, right?

 

     Okay, there's more to it that just this.  He deceives the nations so they'll go on the war path.  So they'll rally up and fight.  Without this deception it appears no one goes to battle.

 

     Now, as soon as all this happens, and the war just starts to really get going (the city is surrounded and people are getting killed), the evil old devil gets tossed into the lake of fire.  *splash* The wars apparently over.  And it's time for judgment.  Time for all the dead people to come from hades (hell or wherever) and all that.

 

     So why does it happen?  To get the war machine started that ultimately results in the end times judgment.  Without this apparently there's no war and without this war there's no judgment.

 

          mwc

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks mwc.

 

I still can't grasp the logic of why God would do that but you explained it really well.

 

God relies a lot on this Satan character to carry out his genius plans.

[Overcame Faith]

Ted Bundy confessed to raping, brutalizing, and murdering 30 women. His defense lawyer said the figure was actually around 100.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ted-bundy-killed-more-than-100-848007

 

During Bundy's last interview just 17 hours before he was scheduled to be executed in 1989, he told James Dobson of Focus on the Family that he had accepted Jesus as his savior.

 

http://www.pureintimacy.org/f/fatal-addiction-ted-bundys-final-interview/

 

If we assume Bundy was being genuine in what he said to Dobson, is he in the glories of heaven, thanks to the redeeming grace of Jesus?

 

How about Mahatma Ghandi? He was not Christian, but he was a peaceful man who helped millions of people.

[mwc]

Thanks mwc.

 

I still can't grasp the logic of why God would do that but you explained it really well.

 

God relies a lot on this Satan character to carry out his genius plans.

     I can't say there's a particular logic to anything of this other than to explain why a judgment happens.

 

     In the thousand years without satan the world is basically ruled by xians and christ.  Apparently, things are just fine during that time.  Until, that is, the time is up and the deception starts so the war begins.  No deception means no war.  But without any of this means xian paradise.

 

     But god needs to judge so he can live on earth with all the resurrected souls and not live in heaven while only some resurrected souls live in some xian paradise with everyone else.  That's bad.

 

     So a war happens.  People die.  People are resurrected.  Brought out of whatever afterlife they're in (which seems to be fairly harmless).  Sent to the lake of fire which may be forever.  Then all the rest get to go to the new earth with god and son.  Finally.  The ultimate paradise.  Nothing is ever bad there.

 

     Revelation 22:

¹⁴ Blessed are those who wash their robes,^[g] so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. ¹⁵ Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

 

     Oh yeah.  Except this.  The part where the good people get to go into the new city but, for some reason, there's still some group that should have been tossed into the lake of fire still hanging around.  They don't get to go into the new city but they're there nonetheless.  Crapping up the place.  Certainly not learning the piano.

 

     Seems like this is just another flood scenario.  Kill a shit ton of people but when everything is said and done the job still isn't done quite right.  Looks like good guys and bad guys will have to fight it out another day.

 

          mwc

[mymistake]

Thanks mwc.

 

I still can't grasp the logic of why God would do that but you explained it really well.

 

God relies a lot on this Satan character to carry out his genius plans.

 

 

I can't grasp the logic of how apologists give God a pass on crap like this but can't accept that the universe exists without God because "we need to know why".

[Overcame Faith]

Between 1978 and 1991, Jeffrey Dahmer murdered 17 men and boys. But he did not only murder them. He also raped, dismembered, ate some of their body parts, and even committed necrophilia with some of his later victims.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

 

While he was in prison, a Christian woman by the name of Mary Mott, after seeing Dahmer on TV, sent Dahmer some Bible study material. After Dahmer finished with the study, he told Ms. Mott he wanted to become a Christian. Ms. Mott and the prison chaplain arranged for a minister, Roy Ratcliff, to meet with Dahmer. On May 10, 1994, Ratcliff baptized Dahmer. On November 24, 1994, Dahmer was murdered in prison.

 

http://www.christianchronicle.org/article/encounter-with-dahmer-changed-ministers-life

 

A writer on a Christian website wrote a piece about whether Dahmer was in heaven. Here is his notion of divine justice.

If Dahmer is saved, it only illustrates that God is not a respector of persons, that God sees all sins as equal. Yet for many people they cannot even consider that Dahmer could be saved. That is because they mistakenly think that our salvation is based upon our good works rather than the unmerited favor of God. I call this misconception, "balance scale salvation". They think that as long as the good outweighs the bad that they will go to heaven. Well, not in God's eyes! For unless the citizen of the year truely repents of his one and only sin he ever committed and believes in Jesus as the eternal divine savior, it is he who will go to hell and Jeffery Dahmer (with true repentance), will go to heaven! [Emphasis mine]

http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm

 

As I have repeatedly said, there is no justice in the Christian concept of heaven and hell. I find the above quote to be quite disgusting! Evil people go to heaven while good people go to hell. Really?? How can you stomach such a sick and twisted concept?? I can't and left the Christian nonsense behind to think about, among other things, true justice.

[Guest afireinside]

There's no justice. Dahmer gets off on a technical loophole, that justice system fails

[ironhorse]

 

mwc I don't read the Bible these days but as far as the new earth goes I remember a segment of revelation where God allows Satan back on earth again. Why?

 

     The bible is very clear on this.

 

     Satan is put into a pit for a thousand years.  So they have the technology.  And it says this happens so he cannot deceive the nations any longer.  But the caveat at this point is that he must be let out again.  Why?  It doesn't say.  It just has to happen.

 

     Now there's a resurrection and a thousand years of nonsense.

 

     So once the time passes  satan is let out of the pit.  Why?  To deceive the nations.  Why?  Well, it has to happen.  We know this because it said so when they tossed him in the pit.  You were paying attention, right?

 

     Okay, there's more to it that just this.  He deceives the nations so they'll go on the war path.  So they'll rally up and fight.  Without this deception it appears no one goes to battle.

 

     Now, as soon as all this happens, and the war just starts to really get going (the city is surrounded and people are getting killed), the evil old devil gets tossed into the lake of fire.  *splash* The wars apparently over.  And it's time for judgment.  Time for all the dead people to come from hades (hell or wherever) and all that.

 

     So why does it happen?  To get the war machine started that ultimately results in the end times judgment.  Without this apparently there's no war and without this war there's no judgment.

 

          mwc

 

 

I am not a Premillennialist. 

 

This is my view:

Amillennialism - the doctrine of no "earthly" millennial reign, or no "earthly" 1000 year reign. It identifies the belief that Christ established His Kingdom by His Death, Resurrection, and ascension to the throne of God in heaven, and thus that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. this doctrine does not hold that Christ must come to a worldly throne in earthly Jerusalem. Rather, it teaches that Christ reigns now and that after this present kingdom reign is over, Christ will return in judgment. The new earth will be the location of Heaven.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 It identifies the belief that Christ established His Kingdom by His Death, Resurrection, and ascension to the throne of God in heaven, and thus that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. 

That's a really nice "kingdom" your christ established.  Here's a picture of one of the children of the kingdom of heaven, as established by your jesus:

[AJG]

 

 It identifies the belief that Christ established His Kingdom by His Death, Resurrection, and ascension to the throne of God in heaven, and thus that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. 

That's a really nice "kingdom" your christ established.  Here's a picture of one of the children of the kingdom of heaven, as established by your jesus:

 

 

Well Prof, you see that child is depraved.  Born under a curse.  We live in a fallen world.  Jesus will swoop that child up into his loving arms once that vulture is done with him.  Unless he's a heathen of course.  Blah blah blah...

[Pantophobia]

 

 

 It identifies the belief that Christ established His Kingdom by His Death, Resurrection, and ascension to the throne of God in heaven, and thus that the kingdom of God is now being extended throughout the world through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. 

That's a really nice "kingdom" your christ established.  Here's a picture of one of the children of the kingdom of heaven, as established by your jesus:

 

 

Well Prof, you see that child is depraved.  Born under a curse.  We live in a fallen world.  Jesus will swoop that child up into his loving arms once that vulture is done with him.  Unless he's a heathen of course.  Blah blah blah...

 

 

Not only that, but think of how many millions of people have seen this image and been moved by it? How do we know that isn't God working in mysterious ways to inspire us? (Abortion is totally OMG MURDER!!, but I'm sure God has a very good reason for wanting this particular child to suffer from slow starvation, so yeah, go with it. This is totally the act of a just and loving God!)

 

PS: Never mind the photographer that killed himself months after taking this shot. That's not important, either.