Feminist Threads, Cue Trolls

[ContraBardus]

 

All you've done there is support the statement that an intoxicated person cannot legally give consent.  Which kinda invalidates your argument.

 

Where does it say that?

 

So you're suggesting that a person is not intoxicated unless they have lost the ability to communicate? Someone isn't truly drunk until they reach the point they can no longer speak? If you're not incapacitated it doesn't really count as drunk?

 

It says that if consent is given, and the person is lucid enough to communicate intent, it's not rape. You can get pretty smashed before you reach that point.

 

Again, if a person is not responsible for their own actions when drunk, why is drinking and driving a crime, why can't you commit armed robbery and get away with it? If being drunk is such a handicap that it absolves you of responsibility, why can it not be used as a defense?

 

Why is the woman the victim in cases where both parties are equally intoxicated? Why isn't the man "raped" as well?

 

If you're so drunk that someone has to carry you away and all you can do is mutter and drool, yeah, it's rape if they have sex with you. That's been pretty well established and nothing I've posted suggests otherwise. I even directly stated that at several points. However, if you're drunk and still able to function enough to communicate well enough to show intent physically or verbally and agree to sex, it's all on you.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

However, if permission is given, as long as the other party is still able to refuse and does not, it's perfectly legal and definitely not rape. 

 

In this statement you are implying that it is possible to give consent while intoxicated.  Keep in mind "intoxicated" does not mean mildly tipsy, it means mentally incapable of giving consent.  The easiest way to avoid being accused of rape in such a situation is not to have sex with someone who is intoxicated.  It's not too much to ask.

[JadedAtheist]

Two intoxicated people have sex, who gets charged with rape? Both of them? 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Two intoxicated people have sex, who gets charged with rape? Both of them? 

I guess it would depend on whether one or both of them make the complaint to the Police, but ultimately on the facts of the individual case.  In domestic violence cases it's not unheard of for both people to be charged.

[Orbit]

 

 

The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I have already discussed this at length with you. If it were unthinkable, it wouldn't be so common.

You can condescend all you like, it doesn't mean you've made your case. Appealing to your expertise is just that, an appeal. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you are insisting on something that is far from a given.

 

I gave you rape stats on the other thread.

[ContraBardus]

 

Two intoxicated people have sex, who gets charged with rape? Both of them? 

I guess it would depend on whether one or both of them make the complaint to the Police, but ultimately on the facts of the individual case.  In domestic violence cases it's not unheard of for both people to be charged.

 

 

I think that's the issue here. I'm going by a different definition of intoxicated than you. Usually intoxicated just means drunk, it's a synonym for the word, but drunk does not necessarily imply that someone has lost control of their facilities or behavior.

 

However, there is another definition for intoxicated which does mean under the influence of a substance to the point of losing control of facilities and behavior. Both are technically correct, but the first is most commonly used legal definition of the term. You are legally intoxicated at .08% BAL, that's not drunk to the point that a person is not lucid and capable of making decisions.

 

The legal definition varies from state to state, but usually it just means drunk, mildly or not. Generally speaking, excessively intoxicated people are referred to as "heavily intoxicated" and that usually means a BAC of somewhere around .2-.27% or higher. Even at that point most people are generally aware enough to speak, move, and interact relatively normally socially. Slurred speech and heavily impaired motor skills. Definite hangover the next day, but not so out of it as to not be aware of what they are doing. Fewer inhibitions, but not none. Still more than capable of being responsible for themselves.

 

2.8-.3% and higher and you're getting into rape territory. Black outs are common, trouble standing or moving on one's own, difficulty speaking, and definitely thought impaired. Not capable of refusal, probably not going to remember much the next day.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

 

I have already discussed this at length with you. If it were unthinkable, it wouldn't be so common.

You can condescend all you like, it doesn't mean you've made your case. Appealing to your expertise is just that, an appeal. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you are insisting on something that is far from a given.

I gave you rape stats on the other thread.

rape stats in no way prove a culture of rape anymore than murder stats prove cultural consent for murder. I don't even know what to do with the claims here. I hope this isn't the academic standard for women's studies as the leaps to conclusion are mindboggling.

[Orbit]

 

 

 

 

The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I have already discussed this at length with you. If it were unthinkable, it wouldn't be so common.

You can condescend all you like, it doesn't mean you've made your case. Appealing to your expertise is just that, an appeal. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you are insisting on something that is far from a given.

I gave you rape stats on the other thread.

rape stats in no way prove a culture of rape anymore than murder stats prove cultural consent for murder. I don't even know what to do with the claims here. I hope this isn't the academic standard for women's studies as the leaps to conclusion are mindboggling.

 

 You said I didn't prove my case that rape occurs frequently. I did. I also presented the concept of rape culture as described in feminist theory for you on the other thread.  If you choose to say this is not good enough, as I said to you before, this is your prerogative.

[ContraBardus]

 

 

 

 

The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I have already discussed this at length with you. If it were unthinkable, it wouldn't be so common.

You can condescend all you like, it doesn't mean you've made your case. Appealing to your expertise is just that, an appeal. I'm not trying to be a jerk but you are insisting on something that is far from a given.

I gave you rape stats on the other thread.

rape stats in no way prove a culture of rape anymore than murder stats prove cultural consent for murder. I don't even know what to do with the claims here. I hope this isn't the academic standard for women's studies as the leaps to conclusion are mindboggling.

 

 

He's got you on this one I'm afraid. Rape is horrible and that there need to be a lot fewer incidents of it everywhere, but that is not the issue here. It's the "culture" part of it that's the problem. It's a bald claim and not really representative of the vast majority of Western Cultures. You're misusing the term, or at least using it to misrepresent the culture in question here.

 

I agree that rape is a problem, but suggesting that there is a "culture" of it is a rather big claim that I don't see adequate evidence to support, at least in the context of Western Culture.

[Vigile]

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

[Orbit]

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

You said that we have a culture where rape is unthinkable. I presented rape stats that show it is not unthinkable, rather it is common. Rape culture is a theoretical concept that explains the prevalence of those numbers, in part. The theory seems reasonable to me.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I found this article very helpful in understanding what is meant by rape culture.

 

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

[mymistake]

 

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

You said that we have a culture where rape is unthinkable. I presented rape stats that show it is not unthinkable, rather it is common. Rape culture is a theoretical concept that explains the prevalence of those numbers, in part. The theory seems reasonable to me.

 

 

 

How rare must rape be in order to not have a rape culture?  And we need to make a distinction.  Does it matter how common rape is for victims or is it about how common are the perps?  In other words is the high number of women raped over the course of their entire lifetime the driving factor or would it be decided if less than one percent of the population commits rape?

 

Is there any culture(s) on Earth that isn't a rape culture?  If so then why?

[Fweethawt]

Hats off to Vigile and Bardus!

 

I wish I had such patience.

 

 

Now -- how bouts we address this culture of illiteracy ...

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

You said that we have a culture where rape is unthinkable. I presented rape stats that show it is not unthinkable, rather it is common. Rape culture is a theoretical concept that explains the prevalence of those numbers, in part. The theory seems reasonable to me.

 

 

 

How rare must rape be in order to not have a rape culture?  And we need to make a distinction.  Does it matter how common rape is for victims or is it about how common are the perps?  In other words is the high number of women raped over the course of their entire lifetime the driving factor or would it be decided if less than one percent of the population commits rape?

 

Is there any culture(s) on Earth that isn't a rape culture?  If so then why?

 

You are looking at it in a quantitative way when it is a qualitative concept.

 

There are some numbers in the article I posted anyway.

[ContraBardus]

 

 

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

You said that we have a culture where rape is unthinkable. I presented rape stats that show it is not unthinkable, rather it is common. Rape culture is a theoretical concept that explains the prevalence of those numbers, in part. The theory seems reasonable to me.

 

 

 

How rare must rape be in order to not have a rape culture?  And we need to make a distinction.  Does it matter how common rape is for victims or is it about how common are the perps?  In other words is the high number of women raped over the course of their entire lifetime the driving factor or would it be decided if less than one percent of the population commits rape?

 

Is there any culture(s) on Earth that isn't a rape culture?  If so then why?

 

 

Why does rape denote a culture when other crimes do not? Millions of cars are stolen every year, but that does not create a car theft culture. You could say the same of murders, armed robberies and any other crime that happens often.

 

Her suggesting that it's related to numbers is a bait and switch. In order to claim that something like rape is a culture you need more than raw numbers. This is just moving the goal post again, numbers don't create culture, and the ideas that she presents claiming a culture earlier in the thread only reflect part of a tiny minority that does not reflect on the culture it exists within in regard to Western Culture. Culture implies community and acceptance within a group, and rape doesn't really have that in Western Cultures. It's viewed as a violent and unacceptable act and is criminalized. People who rape are generally not accepted and ostracized, even amongst criminals. It's fairly common knowledge you don't want to go to jail as either a rapist or a child molester because the other criminals aren't cool with that shit. One is only slightly worse than the other.

 

Ironically, you could claim rape culture in prison, but it also tends to stay in prison for the vast majority of inmates, and it's less common than popular culture often depicts.

 

Rape culture as it's being presented in the thread does not exist in the areas she's claiming. India, Pakistan, various parts of Africa and the Middle East, you'd even have a case for it in Japan. As it is, it's just exaggerating the issue to make it sound more common and accepted within the cultures being discussed than it actually is.

[mymistake]

I was trying to get a precise definition.

 

I agree.  Rape culture is when the law says that it isn't rape unless two men witnessed it and testify against the accused.  Rape culture is when reporting rape will get you thrown in jail on charges of fornication.  Rape culture is when a woman finds herself in an compromising position so a hundred strangers rape her in the street in broad daylight.  Rape culture is when some Katrina survivors get stuck in a stadium without food or water for a few days they decide they will rape anybody they can overpower.  Rape culture is not the nation where rapes are reported at a high rate because the victims will not be punished by the government.

 

 

I realize some will not agree with me on this but I think rape culture is also where prostitution is illegal so that pimps take the industry underground and abused prostitutes cannot turn to the law for help.  Sex work should be like any other field - staffed only by those who choose it and fully protected by the law.

[ContraBardus]

I was trying to get a precise definition.

 

I agree.  Rape culture is when the law says that it isn't rape unless two men witnessed it and testify against the accused.  Rape culture is when reporting rape will get you thrown in jail on charged of fornication.  Rape culture is when a woman finds herself in an compromising position so a hundred strangers rape her in the street in broad daylight.  Rape culture is when some Katrina survivors get stuck in a stadium without food or water for a few days they decide they will rape anybody they can overpower.  Rape culture is not the nation where rapes are reported at a high rate because the victims will not be punished by the government.

 

 

I realize some will not agree with me on this but I think rape culture is also where prostitution is illegal so that pimps take the industry underground and abused prostitutes cannot turn to the law for help.  Sex work should be like any other field - staffed only by those who choose it and fully protected by the law.

 

Gotta agree with Prostitution there. It is like abortion in that making it illegal does not stop it, and only accomplishes needlessly shaming those involved, often ruining their lives for no good reason, and making it less safe for those in the business.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I was trying to get a precise definition.

 

I agree.  Rape culture is when the law says that it isn't rape unless two men witnessed it and testify against the accused.  Rape culture is when reporting rape will get you thrown in jail on charges of fornication.  Rape culture is when a woman finds herself in an compromising position so a hundred strangers rape her in the street in broad daylight.  Rape culture is when some Katrina survivors get stuck in a stadium without food or water for a few days they decide they will rape anybody they can overpower.  Rape culture is not the nation where rapes are reported at a high rate because the victims will not be punished by the government.

 

 

I realize some will not agree with me on this but I think rape culture is also where prostitution is illegal so that pimps take the industry underground and abused prostitutes cannot turn to the law for help.  Sex work should be like any other field - staffed only by those who choose it and fully protected by the law.

Legalising prostitution 11 years ago has certainly made life better for NZ's sex workers.

 

Rape is significantly under-reported in the US, because many victims do not feel comfortable coming forward - they see how those who complain get treated and decide to avoid re-victimisation as much as they can.  Counteracting rape culture is not just about prosecutions either.  That is only one part of it.

 

Before we can go telling people in other countries how bad their rape culture is, shouldn't we clean up our own backyards first?

 

Precise definitions of rape culture have been given in other threads, I just don't think you want to accept it.  I know you won't believe me when I say this, but when people talk about rape culture, they are not blaming all men for condoning and excusing rape.  Enlightened men can approach the subject without feeling like they are being personally criticised for what is a culture-wide phenomenon that we are all raised in.  Plenty of women participate in victim blaming too, when they don't know any better.

[ContraBardus]

 

I was trying to get a precise definition.

 

I agree.  Rape culture is when the law says that it isn't rape unless two men witnessed it and testify against the accused.  Rape culture is when reporting rape will get you thrown in jail on charges of fornication.  Rape culture is when a woman finds herself in an compromising position so a hundred strangers rape her in the street in broad daylight.  Rape culture is when some Katrina survivors get stuck in a stadium without food or water for a few days they decide they will rape anybody they can overpower.  Rape culture is not the nation where rapes are reported at a high rate because the victims will not be punished by the government.

 

 

I realize some will not agree with me on this but I think rape culture is also where prostitution is illegal so that pimps take the industry underground and abused prostitutes cannot turn to the law for help.  Sex work should be like any other field - staffed only by those who choose it and fully protected by the law.

Legalising prostitution 11 years ago has certainly made life better for NZ's sex workers.

 

Rape is significantly under-reported in the US, because many victims do not feel comfortable coming forward - they see how those who complain get treated and decide to avoid re-victimisation as much as they can.  Counteracting rape culture is not just about prosecutions either.  That is only one part of it.

 

Before we can go telling people in other countries how bad their rape culture is, shouldn't we clean up our own backyards first?

 

Precise definitions of rape culture have been given in other threads, I just don't think you want to accept it.  I know you won't believe me when I say this, but when people talk about rape culture, they are not blaming all men for condoning and excusing rape.  Enlightened men can approach the subject without feeling like they are being personally criticised for what is a culture-wide phenomenon that we are all raised in.  Plenty of women participate in victim blaming too, when they don't know any better.

 

 

A lot of the issue with coming forward about being raped is caused by the fact that the act itself is humiliating and sex has a stigma attached to it. That's an issue with how sex is viewed in Western Culture that has a negative impact on rape cases, but it is not an indication of a rape culture either. While related, one does not create the other by default.

 

Again, what you're suggesting does not indicate a "rape culture". We're calling it out because the term does not fit what actually exists in Western Culture. Not because it doesn't exist anywhere, but because you're misusing the term to describe cultures that the term doesn't fit.

 

Rape legislation is not perfect, and yes there are assholes and losers who shame victims, some of which exist in the media. Still, they are largely isolated and not connected with each other. There isn't a culture of acceptance for that sort of behavior in the West. It is not a "culture-wide phenomenon that we are all raised in", it's a few isolated incidents that usually aren't supported by the population at large.

 

Culture implies central and common beliefs within a group, and there is no Western Group I'm aware of where rape is glorified, condoned, and accepted. It's a crime pretty much everywhere in the west and women are not prosecuted for reporting it. There will always be idiots who say stupid things because of ignorance and poor taste attempts at minimizing an issue in a botched attempt at consolation or a lazy attempt to brush off the unpleasant. Defense lawyers will always make things as unpleasant as they can get away with for the accused regardless of what the crime is. That alone is not enough to create a culture though.

 

Rape just doesn't have that kind of grounding in the west. It just doesn't. Yes it's a serious problem, yes it needs to be addressed, but claiming it has the sort of traction and rooting to be called a culture is just exaggerating and sensationalizing the problem.

 

A lot of what you're suggesting is true. You've brought up some important and serious issues that need to be addressed, but the culture you're implying exists around those problems does not exist. The problems aren't caused by a rape culture, they're just problems related to rape.

 

As I've been saying, you want to talk "rape culture" there are plenty of places in the world that would qualify for such a description, but the vast majority of Western cultures do not fit the term and you're mislabeling the problems to make them sound worse and more prevalent than they really are.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

You're entitled to your opinion, and it is only that, opinion.

[ContraBardus]

You're entitled to your opinion, and it is only that, opinion.

 

You're only entitled to what you can argue for.

 

That said, definitions of terms like this aren't a matter of simple opinion. By comparing normal Western Culture to actual rape cultures where women can be raped in the street in broad daylight and the government turns a blind eye, or where a woman can be stoned for being impure because she was raped, or where women are sold and used like cattle, you are doing a disservice to them by minimizing their plight by misusing the term to refer to places where women are vastly more respected and free to a level that many of the women in real rape cultures quite literally don't even dream exists.

 

You are misusing the term to sensationalize the issue, plain and simple. It's an insult to the progress the West has made in regard to women's rights and a gross exaggeration of real and serious issues. That kind of exaggeration can often have the opposite of the intended effect and make the issues seem less important because it invites comparison to the real problems that actually do fit the description.

 

I don't think you understand what a rape culture is because you've never seen one. Spend some time in India, Thailand, Cambodia, or Japan and you'll see how poorly you're using the term, go to Africa where women are often kidnapped, raped, and then sold and tell me how awful this "Western Rape Culture" you claim exists is then.

 

There is no comparison. You're taking a serious issue and exaggerating it, and that hurts your credibility and does more harm than good. This rape culture you claim exists in the West isn't real. The problems you're talking about are, but sensationalizing and exaggerating them doesn't do anyone any good. It just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about and creates the impression that these issues are just first world problems.

 

What we're talking about is not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong and mislabeling the issue so you can pretend the comparatively [<that word is very important in the context of this statement] minor issues are have just as much impact as places where there really is a rape culture. It insults those who are sensible enough to know better, lessens the impact of your argument, and misleads the ignorant into thinking that places that actually have a rape culture aren't as bad as they are.

 

I really don't see how you can honestly justify your claims about this so called Western "Rape Culture". It's just not real and insisting that it does exist doesn't do anyone any good.

[midniterider]

Why is a woman who has sex while drunk a "victim" while a man who has drunk sex a "rapist"? That's a double standard and it's exactly what this argument suggests. It goes against everything reasonable Feminism stands for.

 

++++

[midniterider]

 

 

Here's another example of rape culture:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/06/foxs-tucker-carlson-whiny-teen-couldnt-have-been-raped-by-teacher-because-hes-a-boy/

 

A commentator saying sex between a 30 year old teacher and a 16 year old boy "can't be rape" because the victim was male.  It's statutory rape.

 

Rape culture is when people don't call rape, rape.

 

Misuse of the word 'culture' I think. A handful of stupid and immoral people does not suggest there is a cultural problem. Every culture has bad people. If this sort of thing was sanctioned, enabled, or practiced by a large portion of the population, or supported and/or enabled by the government directly or indirectly, such as the case in India for example, then I might see it.

 

As it is, I'd say it's not really a culture, just a few assholes who don't represent anywhere near the majority that aren't a collective large enough to warrant being labeled a culture.

 

I call it a case of exaggerating a problem. Yes the problem is real, but it's not really a 'culture' in most Western countries.

 

 

The problem of false accusation of rape seems far more exaggerated to me than the problem of actual rape.  But it doesn't stop you from constantly voicing your concern about this injustice.

 

I've never known even one person, in my whole life who was falsely accused of rape.  I agree that this would be morally reprehensible, but it is far more rare than actual rape.

 

 

I know a female who lied to the police about being raped in order to not get yelled at by her parents for staying out all night with her boyfriend. She was of legal consent age. She was not very good at lying. The truth came out and no crime report was filed.

[midniterider]

 

 

I never claimed or discussed frequency. That's your contention. This whole discussion has been highly frustrating for the misrepresentation of words and positions. Let's just end it with me thinking some of your position so extreme and you disagreeing.

You said that we have a culture where rape is unthinkable. I presented rape stats that show it is not unthinkable, rather it is common. Rape culture is a theoretical concept that explains the prevalence of those numbers, in part. The theory seems reasonable to me.

 

 

 

How rare must rape be in order to not have a rape culture?  And we need to make a distinction.  Does it matter how common rape is for victims or is it about how common are the perps?  In other words is the high number of women raped over the course of their entire lifetime the driving factor or would it be decided if less than one percent of the population commits rape?

 

Is there any culture(s) on Earth that isn't a rape culture?  If so then why?

 

 

Are children taught they should rape each other? I guess I should read the articles.