Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 10, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Can I get a pass for growing up in Southern California in the 80s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 10, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Can I get a pass for growing up in Southern California in the 80s? I grew up in the South during the 80s but that doesn't afford me the luxury of using the term "chick". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Can I get a pass for growing up in Southern California in the 80s? I grew up in the South during the 80s but that doesn't afford me the luxury of using the term "chick". Dude isn't a pejorative. It's doesn't imply putting someone down. As an aside, in Southern California we have equal opportunity dude-age, dude applies to both genders on the beach. I say chick too, but chick is more dismissive. Dude isn't dismissive. If my dude-age caused offense I stand corrected and replace it with the word "man". We all good now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Can I get a pass for growing up in Southern California in the 80s? I grew up in the South during the 80s but that doesn't afford me the luxury of using the term "chick". I prefer to say 'gals'. All the gals like it when I call'em that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Is this the one? https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c "If you are a man, you are part of rape culture." "But you do perpetuate the attitudes and behaviors commonly referred to as rape culture." "How are you part of rape culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man." I am not imagining that. He really is blaming me because of the way I was born. I didn't choose to have a Y chromosome. But not because you are men, as Vigile said, but because you have been bombarded with social messages that impart the values that are part of rape culture. Taken in the context of the entire article, which isn't by a social theorist but a normal dude, he's saying "you need to pay attention to this because you're a man". The article said it is because I am a man. And pardon me but this guy has no idea what I have been bombarded with. That is pure presumption. I am a man so he can make all these assumptions about me. Isn't this the very meaning of sexist? He says sexy jokes are rape culture. So now we can't have sexy jokes? Pressure on men to "score" is listed at rape culture. So do I have to castrate myself to eliminate my desire to mate? Nothing else will get the testosterone out of my blood stream. You do realize it's a bad article. It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. It's OK for feminists to speak about broad patterns. But woe is he who speaks of broad patterns in ways that don't fit the feminist ideology. We do base our patterns off of systematic qualitative and quantitative research. I posted rape stats on the other thread. So do a lot of people who disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Is this the one? https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c "If you are a man, you are part of rape culture." "But you do perpetuate the attitudes and behaviors commonly referred to as rape culture." "How are you part of rape culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man." I am not imagining that. He really is blaming me because of the way I was born. I didn't choose to have a Y chromosome. But not because you are men, as Vigile said, but because you have been bombarded with social messages that impart the values that are part of rape culture. Taken in the context of the entire article, which isn't by a social theorist but a normal dude, he's saying "you need to pay attention to this because you're a man". The article said it is because I am a man. And pardon me but this guy has no idea what I have been bombarded with. That is pure presumption. I am a man so he can make all these assumptions about me. Isn't this the very meaning of sexist? He says sexy jokes are rape culture. So now we can't have sexy jokes? Pressure on men to "score" is listed at rape culture. So do I have to castrate myself to eliminate my desire to mate? Nothing else will get the testosterone out of my blood stream. You do realize it's a bad article. It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. It's OK for feminists to speak about broad patterns. But woe is he who speaks of broad patterns in ways that don't fit the feminist ideology. We do base our patterns off of systematic qualitative and quantitative research. I posted rape stats on the other thread. So do a lot of people who disagree with you. What are you disagreeing with today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Is this the one? https://medium.com/human-parts/a-gentlemens-guide-to-rape-culture-7fc86c50dc4c "If you are a man, you are part of rape culture." "But you do perpetuate the attitudes and behaviors commonly referred to as rape culture." "How are you part of rape culture? Well, I hate to say it, but it’s because you’re a man." I am not imagining that. He really is blaming me because of the way I was born. I didn't choose to have a Y chromosome. But not because you are men, as Vigile said, but because you have been bombarded with social messages that impart the values that are part of rape culture. Taken in the context of the entire article, which isn't by a social theorist but a normal dude, he's saying "you need to pay attention to this because you're a man". The article said it is because I am a man. And pardon me but this guy has no idea what I have been bombarded with. That is pure presumption. I am a man so he can make all these assumptions about me. Isn't this the very meaning of sexist? He says sexy jokes are rape culture. So now we can't have sexy jokes? Pressure on men to "score" is listed at rape culture. So do I have to castrate myself to eliminate my desire to mate? Nothing else will get the testosterone out of my blood stream. You do realize it's a bad article. It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. It's OK for feminists to speak about broad patterns. But woe is he who speaks of broad patterns in ways that don't fit the feminist ideology. We do base our patterns off of systematic qualitative and quantitative research. I posted rape stats on the other thread. So do a lot of people who disagree with you. What are you disagreeing with today? I guess one example would be that much-touted $0.77 number. More than one economist has proven that it does not represent equal work. I'll be happy to google up several studies when I get home if you need. The fact that you refuse to understand or acknowledge this is pretty telling IMO. It's a good example of what I'm getting at when I say that I've been given the impression that feminists are more interested in issue advocacy than in being strictly truthful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 10, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2014 It's an honest effort by one dude to explain this to other dudes. it's not social theory--which of course is written in a more precise way. When thinking about any social theory you need to remember that social theory isn't about you personally. It's about broad patterns that have been observed in society. I don't really have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one. But don't you think that referring to us as "dudes" is at least as sexist as it would be for us to refer to y'all as "chicks"? Can I get a pass for growing up in Southern California in the 80s? I grew up in the South during the 80s but that doesn't afford me the luxury of using the term "chick". Dude isn't a pejorative. It's doesn't imply putting someone down. As an aside, in Southern California we have equal opportunity dude-age, dude applies to both genders on the beach. I say chick too, but chick is more dismissive. Dude isn't dismissive. If my dude-age caused offense I stand corrected and replace it with the word "man". We all good now? In the South, it is not unusual for men to use the term "Baby Girl" when speaking to a woman. Most Southern women would never think of taking offense to this term, as they recognize it as a term of endearment. However, once you get outside of the South, many women find the term highly objectionable and belittling. Differences in geographical location should be taken into consideration when discussing highly politically charged subjects such as this. This is why, on this website, I would only use the term "Baby Girl" with a woman that I felt I was close enough with not to be offended. With that said, I was not offended by your use of the term "dude"; but I did find its use somewhat hypocritical, given the nature of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Systemic sexism isn't the same thing as rape culture--systemic sexism is the larger thing that encompasses rape culture. But more generally, I would say that given how much harm patriarchy and systemic sexism does to women and men, I'd encourage y'all to rethink your war on the term "rape culture." It's like there are people saying, "global climate change is a very pressing danger," and you're saying, "calling it 'global' implies that my little village is just as responsible as big cities." Whether or not your complain is valid, it's such small potatoes compared to the real harms that complaining about it makes you seem like a troll and someone engaging in derailment tactics. Help fix the problem--and as needed, nudge the use of terminology from within the movement instead of standing on the sidelines and complaining. Alternative opinions are trolling. That is almost as bad as alternative opinions are whining. And I should remain silent because of real harms that happened before I was born and I had no control over. It shows how interested you are in dialog. Your analogy fails. I don't have a war on the term. What I have is people who self identify as feminists who follow me around and beat me over the head with rape culture. They hold me personally responsible even though they don't know the first thing about me and sometimes they have to manufacture evidence to seem credible. But if you don't care how divisive that is then it isn't a problem. It certainly isn't my problem. I'm not on the sidelines. What a presumption you made! As a humanist I know that the right way to fight sexism is to not favor one gender over the other. Sexism only encourages more sexism. This is ridiculous. No one is holding you personally responsible for the rape culture concept, or for rape. That is coming from inside your own head, not from feminism. You are not. That doesn't mean everybody else is as reasonable. I didn't say it came from feminism but rather from people. And I am not imagining how divisive this subject is for everyone else. I agree with Orbit. It is ridiculous how you feel you are being held personally responsible for the rape culture concept. Lots of men can engage with the concept without feeling personally attacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 "Nice how you blame the mother for the stepfather's crime." "Rape culture is, among other things, when victims (or their mothers) get blamed for the rapist's actions." - You-know-who Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 "Nice how you blame the mother for the stepfather's crime." "Rape culture is, among other things, when victims (or their mothers) get blamed for the rapist's actions." - You-know-who That just adds more weight to the argument that you are taking things personally and whining instead of engaging with the topic of rape culture and discussing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 FTNZ....I am now CONVINCED he's flirting with you...got to be...LOL... Oh stop it you *blushes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 FTNZ....I am now CONVINCED he's flirting with you...got to be...LOL... With my intentional Calvinistic Asperger's Syndrome? I try to talk about the issues and my detractors derail the conversation to talk about me. But I shouldn't take conversations about me personally. They are only conversations about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 FTNZ....I am now CONVINCED he's flirting with you...got to be...LOL... With my intentional Calvinistic Asperger's Syndrome? I try to talk about the issues and my detractors derail the conversation to talk about me. But I shouldn't take conversations about me personally. They are only conversations about me. Me, me , me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Why don't you admit that I didn't blame the mother for the rape, I did not engage in rape culture behavior, and answer the questions I asked in post 6 of the BSAS thread? That wasn't about me. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62941-billionaire-sexually-assaults-stepdaughter-gets-four-months-in-jail/#.U5eRxCjqp5g "Feel free to explain how culture contributed to rape in this case. Was it because therapists are required by law to report abuse? That is definitely culture but it would be anti-rape. Is it because the law gave a maximum sentence of 40 years? Again that is culture but it would be anti-rape. Was it because the case went to a shitty judge? That fact supports rape but it was caused by an individual rather than culture. Of course she had a shitty stepfather but that is on the individual and not the culture. If the mother dropped the ball, as the lead in seems to indicate, is that on an individual or is it on the culture?" That thread is still open so you could do so over there if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Why don't you admit that I didn't blame the mother for the rape, I did not engage in rape culture behavior, and answer the questions I asked in post 6 of the BSAS thread? That wasn't about me. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62941-billionaire-sexually-assaults-stepdaughter-gets-four-months-in-jail/#.U5eRxCjqp5g "Feel free to explain how culture contributed to rape in this case. Was it because therapists are required by law to report abuse? That is definitely culture but it would be anti-rape. Is it because the law gave a maximum sentence of 40 years? Again that is culture but it would be anti-rape. Was it because the case went to a shitty judge? That fact supports rape but it was caused by an individual rather than culture. Of course she had a shitty stepfather but that is on the individual and not the culture. If the mother dropped the ball, as the lead in seems to indicate, is that on an individual or is it on the culture?" That thread is still open so you could do so over there if you wish. Because I have already explained in that thread how saying the mother dropped the ball is blaming her for the rapist getting a light sentence. Your posts in both threads, and others, indicate that you feel you are being blamed for rape culture. There's no point in me repeating myself over and over again. The issue is with your perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Do you see this word: If Those who do not understand what it means can look in up in the dictionary and learn. "If the mother dropped the ball, as the lead in seems to indicate . . " does not blame the mother for the rape of the daughter. The actions of the rapist are not the ridiculously light sentence handed down by the judge. See, they are different things. No matter how you twist it you are wrong. Words have meaning. It wasn't me, it was the article that SL quoted. I didn't write the article. If you don't like what the article said take it up with that author. The article blamed the mother for the case going bad resulting in the light sentence, not for the actions of the stepfather; not for the rape. If I am taking this too personally then why didn't you simply say that I didn't blame the mother for the rape? Your actions do not match your words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 FTNZ....I am now CONVINCED he's flirting with you...got to be...LOL... With my intentional Calvinistic Asperger's Syndrome? I try to talk about the issues and my detractors derail the conversation to talk about me. But I shouldn't take conversations about me personally. They are only conversations about me. I gotta admit, man. I like you. What's not to like, you're a grove of trees with a sense of humor! :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Maybe we should start a rape apologist thread, and get a fresh shiny start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 The article blamed the mother It didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Nah, I think we should talk about that $0.77 number. Why are feminists so incapable of admitting the obvious? Seriously- I KNOW it's not stupidity at play here. What else am I left with besides intellectual dishonesty? http://www.factcheck.org/2014/04/playing-politics-with-the-pay-gap/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Rank, your pet topic was thoroughly covered in the other thread. Why beat a dead horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Rank, your pet topic was thoroughly covered in the other thread. Why beat a dead horse? Because you're so obviously wrong? Because it's been so soundly proven by so many sources and you refuse to even acknowledge it? I mean it's the damndest thing. Didn't you say you were a grad student or something? You CAN'T be stupid and be a grad student. Well... I guess my wife has an aunt who has a master's in education- and she IS stupid- but I think it's pretty unlikely. So I'm kinda fascinated by what's going on here. Is this just denial? As in you've built this feminist identity and you can't bring yourself to even CONSIDER that some of the ideology might be less than the Gospel Truth? I mean... that's what's going on with our local Libertarian ideologue- it's not uncommon. Or can you really, honestly not understand a very simple and well-proven argument? Seriously- I can't tell. And that's what fascinates me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 11, 2014 Author Share Posted June 11, 2014 Rank, your pet topic was thoroughly covered in the other thread. Why beat a dead horse? Because you're so obviously wrong? Because it's been so soundly proven by so many sources and you refuse to even acknowledge it? I mean it's the damndest thing. Didn't you say you were a grad student or something? You CAN'T be stupid and be a grad student. Well... I guess my wife has an aunt who has a master's in education- and she IS stupid- but I think it's pretty unlikely. So I'm kinda fascinated by what's going on here. Is this just denial? As in you've built this feminist identity and you can't bring yourself to even CONSIDER that some of the ideology might be less than the Gospel Truth? I mean... that's what's going on with our local Libertarian ideologue- it's not uncommon. Or can you really, honestly not understand a very simple and well-proven argument? Seriously- I can't tell. And that's what fascinates me. I proved my case with data in the other thread. Putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "you're wrong!" won't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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