Feminist Threads, Cue Trolls

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP.

 

Feminist threads cue discussion, anyway. :-)

It's what I like about this board, but understand is uncomfortable for some. All ideas are challenged. If they have merit, they survive, if not, they get nailed to the wall. Feminism is just our latest obsession. Makes sense that those of us who have been duped by ideology would now be vicious critics demanding strong proof and sneering at intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

This is how all ideas everywhere about anything should work. If it has so little merit it cannot withstand discussion both negative and positive the position was weak in the first place. If it will stand it will stand on its own.

 

Feminism is a great topic for this. There are multiple views and sides and many many valued opinions. The only fact I know is that all people are born equal and should have a chance to fuck up on their own or succeed from their labor. Of course it does not always work that way in the end but it is what we are born with. The right to make up our own damn mind.

 

 

I was commenting specifically about the supposed 23% gender pay gap in that post- a claim that's been refuted by multiple economists.

 

Personally I think feminists have some valid points to make within their concept of rape culture.  Not sure I'd agree with the idea wholesale- and I do think the name is chosen more for shock value than accuracy.  

 

But yeah, these things should be discussed and debated.  If they're true, they'll stand up to scrutiny.  But when we have multiple feminists here who equate disagreement with trolling, and who leave in a huff because they can't handle a relatively tame debate... well that really says something about the rigidity of their ideas.

[midniterider]

 

 

 

 

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP.

 

Feminist threads cue discussion, anyway. :-)

It's what I like about this board, but understand is uncomfortable for some. All ideas are challenged. If they have merit, they survive, if not, they get nailed to the wall. Feminism is just our latest obsession. Makes sense that those of us who have been duped by ideology would now be vicious critics demanding strong proof and sneering at intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

This is how all ideas everywhere about anything should work. If it has so little merit it cannot withstand discussion both negative and positive the position was weak in the first place. If it will stand it will stand on its own.

 

Feminism is a great topic for this. There are multiple views and sides and many many valued opinions. The only fact I know is that all people are born equal and should have a chance to fuck up on their own or succeed from their labor. Of course it does not always work that way in the end but it is what we are born with. The right to make up our own damn mind.

 

 

I was commenting specifically about the supposed 23% gender pay gap in that post- a claim that's been refuted by multiple economists.

 

Personally I think feminists have some valid points to make within their concept of rape culture.  Not sure I'd agree with the idea wholesale- and I do think the name is chosen more for shock value than accuracy.  

 

But yeah, these things should be discussed and debated.  If they're true, they'll stand up to scrutiny.  But when we have multiple feminists here who equate disagreement with trolling, and who leave in a huff because they can't handle a relatively tame debate... well that really says something about the rigidity of their ideas.

 

 

I cant really comment on the gender pay gap. I worked in a union shop and wages were dictated by contract.

 

I'd like to think that victim shaming and the idea that "they asked for it by wearing revealing clothing" that both result in under-reporting of the crime are things that America has eliminated....ideas from the 70s that have no business in life today. But my cynical side knows there will always be morons using these excuses. Whether or not this means we live in a rape culture, well I disagree with that idea. Society isn't cultivating rape.  I may be wrong though and I'm willing to admit it. Rape culture could be invisible to me cuz I'm a guy. But I think society in general is getting better at rejecting excuses for rape and educating people that it's wrong.

 

But there will always be someone committing that crime. Like every other crime. These criminals are part of a criminal culture. Maybe.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

 

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP. 

 

For myself, while I still would like to help nudge this place in a positive direction, this thread is just an illustration of how derailing and trolling tactics work, and I'm not going to waste my time and stress myself out. The big lesson I'm learning is that around here I should stick to the threads that are most about the ex-c experience and not wander too far beyond--there's too little moderation, too little good faith, and it just doesn't feel like a safe and productive place to have productive discussions. And there are some things I like about this place, and I'd rather focus on that, at least for now.

 

Yeah, it's a damn shame that some people have the audacity to disagree and demand evidence.  

 

LOL!  Not 5 minutes ago you were caught out on another thread providing anecdotes about your career instead of any research to support a claim that "women are not good at mechanical work".  Sheesh.

 

 

I was not "caught" at anything.  There are no such studies- I never claimed there were any such studies.  I never claimed I was doing scientific research.  I offered my own experience- pretty damn thorough experience- in mechanical fields.  That's my evidence.  You don't have to accept it- but it's the truth just the same.

 

You expect others to provide more than anecdotal evidence for their claims yet that standard somehow doesn't apply to your own claims.  

 

 

Fine.  Here's some stats. 

 

From the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development:

 

http://www.oecd.org/std/37964549.pdf

 

Look real closely at those numbers and understand what they mean.  Those aren't percentages in that chart- those are RATIOS.  Here's the chart:

 

 

You won't find "diesel mechanic" on that list.  But look at the column on the right.  Those numbers are:

 

80.2 men per woman

64.8 men per woman

52.9 men per woman

35.4 men per woman

35.3 men per woman

30.5 men per woman

24.5 men per woman

23.1 men per woman

21.7 men per woman

15.9 men per woman

 

 

 

This is what the mechanical/dirty/dangerous/difficult occupations I describe look like.  They're OVERWHELMINGLY staffed by men, and the numbers unequivocally show that.

 

Happy now?

 

Oh, and BTW- look at the column on the left.  See how women OVERWHELMINGLY outnumber men in verbal and child-care occupations?

 

Again the numbers support my opinion without qualification.

 

You haven't provided a thing that supports your claim that women are not good at mechanical work.  That is a claim about ability, not how many work in mechanical jobs.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP.

 

Feminist threads cue discussion, anyway. :-)

It's what I like about this board, but understand is uncomfortable for some. All ideas are challenged. If they have merit, they survive, if not, they get nailed to the wall. Feminism is just our latest obsession. Makes sense that those of us who have been duped by ideology would now be vicious critics demanding strong proof and sneering at intellectual dishonesty.

 

 

This is how all ideas everywhere about anything should work. If it has so little merit it cannot withstand discussion both negative and positive the position was weak in the first place. If it will stand it will stand on its own.

 

Feminism is a great topic for this. There are multiple views and sides and many many valued opinions. The only fact I know is that all people are born equal and should have a chance to fuck up on their own or succeed from their labor. Of course it does not always work that way in the end but it is what we are born with. The right to make up our own damn mind.

 

 

I was commenting specifically about the supposed 23% gender pay gap in that post- a claim that's been refuted by multiple economists.

 

Personally I think feminists have some valid points to make within their concept of rape culture.  Not sure I'd agree with the idea wholesale- and I do think the name is chosen more for shock value than accuracy.  

 

But yeah, these things should be discussed and debated.  If they're true, they'll stand up to scrutiny.  But when we have multiple feminists here who equate disagreement with trolling, and who leave in a huff because they can't handle a relatively tame debate... well that really says something about the rigidity of their ideas.

 

Feminists can handle debate, we just get bored with the rigid, bigoted attitudes.  You might have left religion, but you still hang on to the outdated beliefs about gender.

[Tollo]

2 cents: with the oppression credentials of being a lesbian woman (lol) my opinion is that I was enraptured by feminism as a worldview and morality system for some time, and I still think they have a hell of a lot of good points to make that other people aren't making. But women's studies class is the closest thing to Sunday school I've ever encountered outside of Sunday school. You can't disagree with anything - you are told what to think - and what I find most unfortunate is they act (in my limited experience) like if you disagree on any point - including what should be done about the issue - you're either a bigot or you've internalized the oppressor. Like obviously there are problems in the world relating to gender, race, sexuality, disability, class, etc. But I had other PROFESSORS criticizing the sociological paradigms held to be gospel truth by the Women's studies department. It was like a strange and disquieting mix of enlightenment and indoctrination. I really don't know what to think anymore. So I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I like to steer clear of feminist orthodoxy. If any of you feminists would like to argue I am wrong in my assessment, please do so but please don't say I'm bigoted or internalizing any oppressors cause it's not the case.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

2 cents: with the oppression credentials of being a lesbian woman (lol) my opinion is that I was enraptured by feminism as a worldview and morality system for some time, and I still think they have a hell of a lot of good points to make that other people aren't making. But women's studies class is the closest thing to Sunday school I've ever encountered outside of Sunday school. You can't disagree with anything - you are told what to think - and what I find most unfortunate is they act (in my limited experience) like if you disagree on any point - including what should be done about the issue - you're either a bigot or you've internalized the oppressor. Like obviously there are problems in the world relating to gender, race, sexuality, disability, class, etc. But I had other PROFESSORS criticizing the sociological paradigms held to be gospel truth by the Women's studies department. It was like a strange and disquieting mix of enlightenment and indoctrination. I really don't know what to think anymore. So I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but I like to steer clear of feminist orthodoxy. If any of you feminists would like to argue I am wrong in my assessment, please do so but please don't say I'm bigoted or internalizing any oppressors cause it's not the case.

I wouldn't try to argue with your assessment because it's your experience and I respect that.  I didn't take any womens or gender studies classes at university, I learnt about feminism at high school and through other university social science courses I took.  I just wanted to point out that you got an upvote from a poster who said mens and womens brains are different and "women are not good at mechanical work" and provided nothing to back that up with.  That's the kind of thing that gets said around here, which is why the feminists say what they say.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP.

Feminist threads cue discussion, anyway. :-)

It's what I like about this board, but understand is uncomfortable for some. All ideas are challenged. If they have merit, they survive, if not, they get nailed to the wall. Feminism is just our latest obsession. Makes sense that those of us who have been duped by ideology would now be vicious critics demanding strong proof and sneering at intellectual dishonesty.

This is how all ideas everywhere about anything should work. If it has so little merit it cannot withstand discussion both negative and positive the position was weak in the first place. If it will stand it will stand on its own.

 

Feminism is a great topic for this. There are multiple views and sides and many many valued opinions. The only fact I know is that all people are born equal and should have a chance to fuck up on their own or succeed from their labor. Of course it does not always work that way in the end but it is what we are born with. The right to make up our own damn mind.

I was commenting specifically about the supposed 23% gender pay gap in that post- a claim that's been refuted by multiple economists.

 

Personally I think feminists have some valid points to make within their concept of rape culture. Not sure I'd agree with the idea wholesale- and I do think the name is chosen more for shock value than accuracy.

 

But yeah, these things should be discussed and debated. If they're true, they'll stand up to scrutiny. But when we have multiple feminists here who equate disagreement with trolling, and who leave in a huff because they can't handle a relatively tame debate... well that really says something about the rigidity of their ideas.

Feminists can handle debate, we just get bored with the rigid, bigoted attitudes. You might have left religion, but you still hang on to the outdated beliefs about gender.

In the context of what's gone on here, this is entirely an ad home argument.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

Well, Orbit, this thread has certainly proven your assertions in the OP.

Feminist threads cue discussion, anyway. :-)

It's what I like about this board, but understand is uncomfortable for some. All ideas are challenged. If they have merit, they survive, if not, they get nailed to the wall. Feminism is just our latest obsession. Makes sense that those of us who have been duped by ideology would now be vicious critics demanding strong proof and sneering at intellectual dishonesty.

This is how all ideas everywhere about anything should work. If it has so little merit it cannot withstand discussion both negative and positive the position was weak in the first place. If it will stand it will stand on its own.

 

Feminism is a great topic for this. There are multiple views and sides and many many valued opinions. The only fact I know is that all people are born equal and should have a chance to fuck up on their own or succeed from their labor. Of course it does not always work that way in the end but it is what we are born with. The right to make up our own damn mind.

I was commenting specifically about the supposed 23% gender pay gap in that post- a claim that's been refuted by multiple economists.

 

Personally I think feminists have some valid points to make within their concept of rape culture. Not sure I'd agree with the idea wholesale- and I do think the name is chosen more for shock value than accuracy.

 

But yeah, these things should be discussed and debated. If they're true, they'll stand up to scrutiny. But when we have multiple feminists here who equate disagreement with trolling, and who leave in a huff because they can't handle a relatively tame debate... well that really says something about the rigidity of their ideas.

Feminists can handle debate, we just get bored with the rigid, bigoted attitudes. You might have left religion, but you still hang on to the outdated beliefs about gender.

In the context of what's gone on here, this is entirely an ad home argument.

 

And what was Rank's final paragraph?

[Vigile]

Something that demonstrably happened? Several member posted they were done and left, no? I see some came back, but that doesn't erase the huff.

In any case, two ad home doesn't make a right.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Something that demonstrably happened? Several member posted they were done and left, no? I see some came back, but that doesn't erase the huff.

In any case, two ad home doesn't make a right.

You've become the moral police all of a sudden.  So Rank can make ad hom attacks but no one else is allowed to?

[Vigile]

It's not an ad home if demonstrably true.

 

You are tiring. Have fun with the last word.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

It's not an ad home if demonstrably true.

 

You are tiring. Have fun with the last word.

If only that would be the last time you chip in on the subject of feminism.  I very much doubt that.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

At this point, can we not just agree that men and women are different and get back to supporting deconverting christians (which IS the primary purpose of this website and this forum in particular)?

 

Thanks.

[Vigile]

I'd like to agree to that redneck, but I would also point out that despite the primary agenda of this site, we have a long history of fierce debate. I'd also argue that's an important element for exers as those of us who have been duped by poor reasoning in the past, are often drawn toward critically examining other preconceptions we all face in this world. We kept, it to the off topic section, but I'm o, it's a crucial part of De converted people that shouldn't be shoved aside because it makes some uncomfortable.

[xtify]

At this point, can we not just agree that men and women are different and get back to supporting deconverting christians (which IS the primary purpose of this website and this forum in particular)?

 

Thanks.

 

That would be nice.

[gall]

At this point, can we not just agree that men and women are different and get back to supporting deconverting christians (which IS the primary purpose of this website and this forum in particular)?

 

Thanks.

 

this is what the description of this area says:

 

"Here is where you may take the opportunity to respond to or comment on any of the articles and rants posted on the Main Blog. Or, just start your own topic."

 

Is this not the place for this type of rant? Seems to be a good rant and a good topic for debate. Debate makes people think and more self thinking is what will help people become critical enough with the world around them to hopefully help them deconvert.

 

if they can't take argument and debate then deconversion is going to be tougher than it needs to be for them as they will have to engage (most likely) people that will not just accept their conversion as it unfolds. Just a thought.

 

if it gets off the OP topic or degenerates into pointless unfounded argument then it should probably just get locked.

[buffettphan]

 

this is what the description of this area says:

 

"Here is where you may take the opportunity to respond to or comment on any of the articles and rants posted on the Main Blog. Or, just start your own topic."

 

Is this not the place for this type of rant? Seems to be a good rant and a good topic for debate. Debate makes people think and more self thinking is what will help people become critical enough with the world around them to hopefully help them deconvert.

 

Exactly.  This area is very loosely moderated for that very reason.  A christian ranting about us and/or preaching christinsanity and personal character attacks are not allowed, but pretty much everything else is fair game, including feisty heated rants which can lead to discussion/debates.   There are plenty of other calmer areas on Ex-C (but not necessarily Totally Off Topic or The Lion's Den!).   

 

if they can't take argument and debate then deconversion is going to be tougher than it needs to be for them as they will have to engage (most likely) people that will not just accept their conversion as it unfolds. Just a thought.

 

Bingo!

 

if it gets off the OP topic or degenerates into pointless unfounded argument then it should probably just get locked.

 

Oh hell, we're only on page 11.        

 

(BTW all threads lock automatically after 30 days of inactivity.)

 

 

 

 

[Vigile]

 

I'd like to agree to that redneck, but I would also point out that despite the primary agenda of this site, we have a long history of fierce debate. I'd also argue that's an important element for exers as those of us who have been duped by poor reasoning in the past, are often drawn toward critically examining other preconceptions we all face in this world. We kept, it to the off topic section, but I'm o, it's a crucial part of De converted people that shouldn't be shoved aside because it makes some uncomfortable.

 

 

 

Unless you're just an ivory tower thinking person who thinks he's the only one in the room.

Haha

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

this is what the description of this area says:

 

"Here is where you may take the opportunity to respond to or comment on any of the articles and rants posted on the Main Blog. Or, just start your own topic."

 

Is this not the place for this type of rant? Seems to be a good rant and a good topic for debate. Debate makes people think and more self thinking is what will help people become critical enough with the world around them to hopefully help them deconvert.

 

Exactly.  This area is very loosely moderated for that very reason.  A christian ranting about us and/or preaching christinsanity and personal character attacks are not allowed, but pretty much everything else is fair game, including feisty heated rants which can lead to discussion/debates.   There are plenty of other calmer areas on Ex-C (but not necessarily Totally Off Topic or The Lion's Den!).   

 

if they can't take argument and debate then deconversion is going to be tougher than it needs to be for them as they will have to engage (most likely) people that will not just accept their conversion as it unfolds. Just a thought.

 

Bingo!

 

if it gets off the OP topic or degenerates into pointless unfounded argument then it should probably just get locked.

 

Oh hell, we're only on page 11.        

 

(BTW all threads lock automatically after 30 days of inactivity.)

 

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly all in favor of a good rant and I love a good, honest dialogue more than anything.  I'm just concerned that we may be creating a distraction for lurkers or new deconverts.  Maybe I worry too much about the people that we don't know about who visit this site and if I am wrong, I'll certainly accept that.  I would just hate to find out that we got into an argument that cost another few years of religion for a lurker who thought, "Ex-christians fight too much; I don't want to be one."  

 

For what it's worth, I think women should be treated equally.

 

With that said, carry on.

[buffettphan]

 

 

 

I'm certainly all in favor of a good rant and I love a good, honest dialogue more than anything.  I'm just concerned that we may be creating a distraction for lurkers or new deconverts.  Maybe I worry too much about the people that we don't know about who visit this site and if I am wrong, I'll certainly accept that.  I would just hate to find out that we got into an argument that cost another few years of religion for a lurker who thought, "Ex-christians fight too much; I don't want to be one."  

 

For what it's worth, I think women should be treated equally.

 

With that said, carry on.

 

 

 

RP, I often have some of those same concerns too and I cringe at some of the bickering.   But then I think about some statements made by people who as former lurkers were impressed by how diverse we are and how we let everyone say their piece.  That got them thinking and gave them the courage to speak out.   But sadly, we probably also turned off others.   Finding the balance is tricky and "gawd" knows I don't always hardly ever get it right!      

 

For what it's worth, I also think that men and women should be treated equally/fairly, as all humans should.  I've pretty much stayed out of these feminism threads (and usually the political ones too, for that matter), because, well, once again finding the balance is tricky and "gawd" knows I don't always hardly ever get it right!      

 

Oh well.

[gall]

 

 

 

this is what the description of this area says:

 

"Here is where you may take the opportunity to respond to or comment on any of the articles and rants posted on the Main Blog. Or, just start your own topic."

 

Is this not the place for this type of rant? Seems to be a good rant and a good topic for debate. Debate makes people think and more self thinking is what will help people become critical enough with the world around them to hopefully help them deconvert.

 

Exactly.  This area is very loosely moderated for that very reason.  A christian ranting about us and/or preaching christinsanity and personal character attacks are not allowed, but pretty much everything else is fair game, including feisty heated rants which can lead to discussion/debates.   There are plenty of other calmer areas on Ex-C (but not necessarily Totally Off Topic or The Lion's Den!).   

 

if they can't take argument and debate then deconversion is going to be tougher than it needs to be for them as they will have to engage (most likely) people that will not just accept their conversion as it unfolds. Just a thought.

 

Bingo!

 

if it gets off the OP topic or degenerates into pointless unfounded argument then it should probably just get locked.

 

Oh hell, we're only on page 11.        

 

(BTW all threads lock automatically after 30 days of inactivity.)

 

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly all in favor of a good rant and I love a good, honest dialogue more than anything.  I'm just concerned that we may be creating a distraction for lurkers or new deconverts.  Maybe I worry too much about the people that we don't know about who visit this site and if I am wrong, I'll certainly accept that.  I would just hate to find out that we got into an argument that cost another few years of religion for a lurker who thought, "Ex-christians fight too much; I don't want to be one."  

 

For what it's worth, I think women should be treated equally.

 

With that said, carry on.

 

 

You should let them worry about that. This is a forum built around a controversy to begin with. People deconvertinig are going to need  thick skin to make it out in one piece considering most of the world is under the delusiojn of god(s).

 

For what it is worth all humans are born equal. The terms women, men, children, boy, person. They are all the same to me. Human is the only one that matters in my eyes. ALL equal.

 

I don't have to agree with anyone as long as I respect their right to exist and be free to think as they will. It is only at the point in which their view requires them to try and stop me from being that person that I take it to a personal issue level.

 

 

If the new incomings or lurkers can't take a debate this is the wrong place for them and feminism is a hot topic in most religous circles considering most religous people I know do everything they can to keep women "in their place". It sickens me.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

For what it's worth, I think women should be treated equally.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I also think that men and women should be treated equally/fairly, as all humans should.

 

 

For what it is worth all humans are born equal. The terms women, men, children, boy, person. They are all the same to me. Human is the only one that matters in my eyes. ALL equal.

 

 

 

 

feminism is a hot topic in most religous circles considering most religous people I know do everything they can to keep women "in their place". It sickens me.

 

TRP, (first quote) Buffettphan (second quote) and Gall (third and fourth quotes) I appreciate you saying the above.

 

The thing is, certain other posters say things like "women are not good at mechanical work" and "a lot of women just want to stay home and live off their husband's income" that don't really gel with your sentiments.  They do sound like the kind of things that would be said by people who have not eradicated that religious desire to keep women "in their place" that you refer to, Gall.

 

It's because of sexist comments like these that I want lurkers and newcomers (particularly women) to see that there will be pushback from people who want equality.  Skepticism is a vital part of the deconversion process but unfortunately for some people hyperskepticism gets used as a justification for sexism.  Feminism challenges all of us to review ourselves to see where we are being sexist.  If we write it off as just an ideology to be resisted at all costs, then we miss out on confronting our own attitudes that may well need confronting after being exposed to the sexism inherent in xianity.

 

All newcomers to this site will eventually find out that there is heated debate here about issues that some people find controversial.  Those who wish to avoid this can probably figure out which subforums to stick to.  I say "some" people because gender equality shouldn't be controversial and for most of us, isn't.  I think where it gets controversial is when people are being challenged about their own attitudes.  At least we do that here, unlike xianity where sexist attitudes are maintained and allowed to flourish.

[Vigile]

Wouldn't want the truth to come out that men and women are different or anything. Honesty must mean one is still religiously oppressing the ladies.

 

This is why you're impossible to take seriously.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Wouldn't want the truth to come out that men and women are different or anything. Honesty must mean one is still religiously oppressing the ladies.

 

This is why you're impossible to take seriously.

No one is debating whether men and women are different.  You are claiming women are incompetent and lazy.  You have no evidence to support your claims.  They meet the definition of prejudice and your behaviour meets the definition of bigotry.  That's why you don't get a free pass from me.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I don't think the difference here is over equality.  Most of the men I know have no problem with women being treated "equally".  The problem, as I see it, is over the definition of "equality".  Until we establish what we all mean by the term, threads such as these will go nowhere.  And in the process, we may be driving off more than we save.