Creation, God, Nothing And Our Universe

[Guest end3]

 

What do you mean you don't hate believers?

 

If you were not blinded by your own prejudice you would have realized that on your own.  I don't hate believers.  You tell me you have compassion for me while you constantly make false accusations against me.  

 

 

 

What if that man foak were near suicide? God damn MM, y'all mobilize an the entire site to save Jeff, but here, welcome to our Lion's Den to be heard.

 

 

When Jeff, Foak and you come here for support we support all of you.  When Foak calls us "horrible" a dozen times we don't like being called horrible.  Why can't you comprehend this?

 

 

We didn't pick on Foak.  So get off your imaginary high horse.  We didn't attack him.  He attacked us.  He started this shit and for the longest time V. was the only person who returned crap.  Everyone else, including me, tried to have a civil and polite conversation with Foak.  He would not allow that.

 

You know I created this thread.  I put it in the Colosseum so that it would stay polite.  It was moved when Foak ignored all the polite attempts at conversation.  All he wanted to do was fight.

 

So drop your prejudice and look at what really happened.

 

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

And to your and my issue, I know you have offered to help me. I also know you have been damn mean at times. I appreciate the times you have offered help as I know that is who you are. I don't think you are a bad person, but I don't think we communicate well....sometimes because of this medium.

[Margee]

 

 

Having said all of that, even the Lion's Den has its limits. This is me speaking personally expressing a personal opinion, if I could see but one change in the Lion's Den, it would be for participants to stop calling each other derogatory names like stupid, dumbass, asshole, and countless other epithets I have seen in the Lion's Den. My reaction to such name calling is that the one engaging in it must not have such a good argument because they resort to name calling to try and intimidate the person expressing the opposing view. But that's just my personal observation for what it's worth.

 

100% agree with you on this point Overcame!!

[buffettphan]

 

 

Having said all of that, even the Lion's Den has its limits. This is me speaking personally expressing a personal opinion, if I could see but one change in the Lion's Den, it would be for participants to stop calling each other derogatory names like stupid, dumbass, asshole, and countless other epithets I have seen in the Lion's Den. My reaction to such name calling is that the one engaging in it must not have such a good argument because they resort to name calling to try and intimidate the person expressing the opposing view. But that's just my personal observation for what it's worth.

 

100% agree with you on this point Overcame!!

 

 

Ditto for me too -- when those derogatory names are used on a personal level.  However, describing the WBC or when I'm ranting about my own family & friends, for example, as "a bunch of fukkin moronic assholes" -- that's just fine with me.     

[mymistake]

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

[Orbit]

 

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

 

 

Foak specifically said he was NOT a believer, and he insisted that he did NOT have a religion. His definition of God, when he gave it, was panentheistic (the universe is God).

 

I want to point out again a fact that everyone keeps ignoring. He received a supportive welcome in the Spirituality Forum and CHOSE to turn his nose up at that support and instead come here looking for a fight. I PMd him early on, before all of this, and explained what the different areas of the board were for; MM started a Colloseum thread for him--it's not like no one took an interest.

 

Foak is not a poor, troubled, misunderstood believer, not judging by his behavior or by what he says,

[Guest end3]

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

 

No, I'm not suggesting changing beliefs. I'm suggesting having the maturity and wisdom to understand their path and place on that path so they might be known...to be heard and understood and accepted.

[Vigile]

 

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

 

No, I'm not suggesting changing beliefs. I'm suggesting having the maturity and wisdom to understand their path and place on that path so they might be known...to be heard and understood and accepted.

 

 

We can accept people, but that doesn't mean we are required to accept their beliefs.  I love my family, but I think their beliefs are stupid. If you come to the lion's den with stupid beliefs, like FOAK did, you're going to get called out for your stupid beliefs.  Doesn't mean we have to dislike the guy. TBH, we don't even know the guy.  All we saw was his cognitive dissonance on display.  He might be an alright character under other circumstances.  That's on him to work out.

 

Hell, I'm always sticking up for the Muslims, who virtually no one wants to stand up for.  Yet I still think their beliefs are about as retarded as they come.  I can separate belief from the person as long as actions don't follow; I'm not going to stick up for some asshat who stones his daughter or some other such nonsense. 

[mymistake]

 

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

 

No, I'm not suggesting changing beliefs. I'm suggesting having the maturity and wisdom to understand their path and place on that path so they might be known...to be heard and understood and accepted.

 

 

All of that already happened.  Why are you pissed off if you already got what you wanted?

 

Foak was understood, Foak had a place, Foak was known, Foak was heard, Foak was accepted.

 

Then he threw a fit and left.  Why are you ranting at us over what Foak did?

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

I DID notice you put it in the Coliseum. What stood out to me was that he had to change himself based on the type of argument that goes on here...logic and facts. What I saw was he doesn't communicate with those same tools. And there were repeated demands to put the facts and argument out there until it got ugly. I think Orbit was the only one that I read that used the word terms when offering him a method to disclose his argument. And for that matter, he already had.

 

You are only complaining because Foak is a believer and his opponents were not.

 

When Mormons knock on your door do you invite them in and listen to them without questioning until you are ready to join the Mormon Church?  Is joining the Mormon Church a sacrifice you are willing to make to Love strangers?  I bet you do the very thing you complain about above.

 

If a non-believer tells you that he can prove your God is not real, the proof is inside you and all around you and all you need to do is get to know yourself do you accept it?  Of course you don't.

 

No, I'm not suggesting changing beliefs. I'm suggesting having the maturity and wisdom to understand their path and place on that path so they might be known...to be heard and understood and accepted.

 

 

All of that already happened.  Why are you pissed off if you already got what you wanted?

 

Foak was understood, Foak had a place, Foak was known, Foak was heard, Foak was accepted.

 

Then he threw a fit and left.  Why are you ranting at us over what Foak did?

 

I'm not pissed, I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here. If we had a device that were plastered on everyone's forehead that could calculate all the chemistry and physics of the mind and spit out the "unified message" that we all could agree on, then that would be great, but we don't. Until then, we are left to learn or know each other to really understand what the other is thinking.

 

Again, my impression of him was different than most because I believe I can identify with what he was writing vs. what most here would agree on.

 

I will concede that I never had seen any of the posts in the Spirituality forum. Might have swayed my mind. I am basing my opinion of your thread.

 

But until we have a relationship with the guy, all we have is limited data. And limited data is less accurate.

[Vigile]

I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here.

 

IOW, everything you see confirms your preconceptions.  You can't demonstrate the former as that's your own perception, but you have not in any way demonstrated the later, even though you claim it's been demonstrated here. 

[Guest end3]

Stand back brothers for the Word of the Lord:

 

 

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

 

 

Jhn 17:2

 

For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:3

 

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:4

 

I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:5

 

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:6

 

“I have revealed you [fn] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:7

 

Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:8

 

For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:9

 

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:10

 

All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:11

 

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of [fn] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:12

 

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by [fn] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:13

 

“I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:14

 

I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:15

 

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:16

 

They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:17

 

Sanctify them by [fn] the truth; your word is truth.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:18

 

As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:19

 

For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:20

 

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:21

 

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:22

 

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:23

 

I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:24

 

“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

 

 

 

Jhn 17:25

 

“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.

 

 

 

 

Jhn 17:26

 

I have made you [fn] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

[Vigile]

I'm not going to read that diarrhea.  What's you're point? 

[Guest end3]

 

I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here.

 

IOW, everything you see confirms your preconceptions.  You can't demonstrate the former as that's your own perception, but you have not in any way demonstrated the later, even though you claim it's been demonstrated here.

 

You are going to have to please tell me what you are considering former and latter. Let me start, yes it confirms my preconceptions. I think reality adequately has demonstrated my preconceptions, you don't? So what latter are you describing...you lost me.

[mymistake]

 

 

I'm not pissed, I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here. If we had a device that were plastered on everyone's forehead that could calculate all the chemistry and physics of the mind and spit out the "unified message" that we all could agree on, then that would be great, but we don't. Until then, we are left to learn or know each other to really understand what the other is thinking.

 

Again, my impression of him was different than most because I believe I can identify with what he was writing vs. what most here would agree on.

 

I will concede that I never had seen any of the posts in the Spirituality forum. Might have swayed my mind. I am basing my opinion of your thread.

 

But until we have a relationship with the guy, all we have is limited data. And limited data is less accurate.

 

 

You can't even tell that we don't hate Foak.  You admit you have no clue what happened in the spirituality forum but you don't let your complete ignorance stop you from passing judgement on us.

 

You say you were basing this on my thread but I was polite to Foak.

 

You form your opinion without checking the facts.

[Guest end3]

I'm not going to read that diarrhea.  What's you're point?

I felt the Glorious need to bring the Word. John seventeen is all about the series of relationships between God and humanity. Given we all would want to be Godly by whatever standard we use, the aforementioned is a wonderful mechanism that is relevant to this discussion.

 

Need I remind you all how many damn times I have heard, "Christians just want to preach....they don't even take the time to know us".

 

Wow, just wow, that here it is in John 17.

 

Read em and weep my brother.

[Guest end3]

 

I'm not pissed, I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here. If we had a device that were plastered on everyone's forehead that could calculate all the chemistry and physics of the mind and spit out the "unified message" that we all could agree on, then that would be great, but we don't. Until then, we are left to learn or know each other to really understand what the other is thinking.

 

Again, my impression of him was different than most because I believe I can identify with what he was writing vs. what most here would agree on.

 

I will concede that I never had seen any of the posts in the Spirituality forum. Might have swayed my mind. I am basing my opinion of your thread.

 

But until we have a relationship with the guy, all we have is limited data. And limited data is less accurate.

 

You can't even tell that we don't hate Foak.  You admit you have no clue what happened in the spirituality forum but you don't let your complete ignorance stop you from passing judgement on us.

 

You say you were basing this on my thread but I was polite to Foak.

 

You form your opinion without checking the facts.

 

You're not listening. Let's say everyone was nice...which they mostly were. What I am trying to convey is you all were demanding that he respond or learn to respond by the manner (facts and logic) that you required. Yes, people asked him nicely...and directly, but if he was unable to recognize those means, those tools, communication is doomed.

 

Why must he have communicated in your new language. Each of you has been Christian before or religious. Surely you recognize the Christianeze from the past?

[Vigile]

 

 

I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here.

 

IOW, everything you see confirms your preconceptions.  You can't demonstrate the former as that's your own perception, but you have not in any way demonstrated the later, even though you claim it's been demonstrated here.

 

You are going to have to please tell me what you are considering former and latter. Let me start, yes it confirms my preconceptions. I think reality adequately has demonstrated my preconceptions, you don't? So what latter are you describing...you lost me.

 

 

Former, red, later, blue. 

 

Bolded, emphatically, no.  This is the same kind of non-argument that FOAK was throwing out. 

[mymistake]

 

I'm not going to read that diarrhea.  What's you're point?

I felt the Glorious need to bring the Word. John seventeen is all about the series of relationships between God and humanity. Given we all would want to be Godly by whatever standard we use, the aforementioned is a wonderful mechanism that is relevant to this discussion.

 

Need I remind you all how many damn times I have heard, "Christians just want to preach....they don't even take the time to know us".

 

Wow, just wow, that here it is in John 17.

 

Read em and weep my brother.

 

 

 

What the fuck?

 

Congratulations on preaching at us instead of getting to know us.

[Guest end3]

 

 

I'm not going to read that diarrhea.  What's you're point?

I felt the Glorious need to bring the Word. John seventeen is all about the series of relationships between God and humanity. Given we all would want to be Godly by whatever standard we use, the aforementioned is a wonderful mechanism that is relevant to this discussion.

 

Need I remind you all how many damn times I have heard, "Christians just want to preach....they don't even take the time to know us".

 

Wow, just wow, that here it is in John 17.

 

Read em and weep my brother.

 

 

 

What the fuck?

 

Congratulations on preaching at us instead of getting to know us.

 

It is a glorious day....haven't felt the urge in years...feels great.

[mymistake]

 

You're not listening. Let's say everyone was nice...which they mostly were. What I am trying to convey is you all were demanding that he respond or learn to respond by the manner (facts and logic) that you required. Yes, people asked him nicely...and directly, but if he was unable to recognize those means, those tools, communication is doomed.

 

Why must he have communicated in your new language. Each of you has been Christian before or religious. Surely you recognize the Christianeze from the past?

 

 

 

End I do listen to your NONSENSE.

 

It is not my fault that humans must use language in order to communicate.  I didn't create this universe and I didn't design humans without telepathy.

 

Christianeze is a tool to control people's minds.  If you want a preacher to go into your mind and control what you think then you go right ahead.  I won't lift a finger to stop it.  But thank you very much I am not going to let Foak or you or any other believer reach into my mind and control what I think.  I am done with brainwashing.

 

I do not force believers to come here and preach.  However if they choose to do so then the rules state that free thinkers are allowed to question these beliefs and challenge the brainwashing.  Stop complaining.  

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here.

 

IOW, everything you see confirms your preconceptions.  You can't demonstrate the former as that's your own perception, but you have not in any way demonstrated the later, even though you claim it's been demonstrated here.

 

You are going to have to please tell me what you are considering former and latter. Let me start, yes it confirms my preconceptions. I think reality adequately has demonstrated my preconceptions, you don't? So what latter are you describing...you lost me.

 

 

Former, red, later, blue. 

 

Bolded, emphatically, no.  This is the same kind of non-argument that FOAK was throwing out.

 

Yes, the fact that the two entities failed to communicated is realistic proof. YOU demonstrate how it worked if you think it could have or did.

[mymistake]

 

It is a glorious day....haven't felt the urge in years...feels great.

 

 

 

So ramming your religion down my throat is a good thing but questioning religion is an evil thing.

 

Believer can put "In God we trust" on our money and you are okay with that.  They can put "under God" in the pledge and force children to say that five days a week.  But unbelievers can't question religion - no!  Unbelievers should not get freedom of speech.

 

 

[Guest end3]

 

You're not listening. Let's say everyone was nice...which they mostly were. What I am trying to convey is you all were demanding that he respond or learn to respond by the manner (facts and logic) that you required. Yes, people asked him nicely...and directly, but if he was unable to recognize those means, those tools, communication is doomed.

 

Why must he have communicated in your new language. Each of you has been Christian before or religious. Surely you recognize the Christianeze from the past?

 

 

End I do listen to your NONSENSE.

 

It is not my fault that humans must use language in order to communicate.  I didn't create this universe and I didn't design humans without telepathy.

 

Christianeze is a tool to control people's minds.  If you want a preacher to go into your mind and control what you think then you go right ahead.  I won't lift a finger to stop it.  But thank you very much I am not going to let Foak or you or any other believer reach into my mind and control what I think.  I am done with brainwashing.

 

I do not force believers to come here and preach.  However if they choose to do so then the rules state that free thinkers are allowed to question these beliefs and challenge the brainwashing.  Stop complaining.

 

It has NOTHING to do with controlling you nor forcing you. I could care less how you believe....it's YOUR belief. What I am saying is, in order to understand what the man wanted to say, we have to understand him. Not criticizing here, but it seems like you are more worried about someone raping you with Christianity. That's rational and I'm sure it happens, but that is not my point.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

I just find it to the point that this reality demonstrates my belief in Christianity. Secondly, it demonstrates that reality doesn't offer the immediate rational output that people demand here.

 

IOW, everything you see confirms your preconceptions.  You can't demonstrate the former as that's your own perception, but you have not in any way demonstrated the later, even though you claim it's been demonstrated here.

 

You are going to have to please tell me what you are considering former and latter. Let me start, yes it confirms my preconceptions. I think reality adequately has demonstrated my preconceptions, you don't? So what latter are you describing...you lost me.

 

 

Former, red, later, blue. 

 

Bolded, emphatically, no.  This is the same kind of non-argument that FOAK was throwing out.

 

Yes, the fact that the two entities failed to communicated is realistic proof. YOU demonstrate how it worked if you think it could have or did.

 

 

Demonstrate what?  You're the one making the claim that it somehow demonstrates irrationality.  I'm just trying to make sense of your word salad and pointing out you haven't demonstrated what you claimed. 

 

If you think the fact that FOAK and the rest of us didn't see eye to eye demonstrates irrationality, then you simply don't know what rationality means as a word. 

[Guest end3]

 

It is a glorious day....haven't felt the urge in years...feels great.

 

 

So ramming your religion down my throat is a good thing but questioning religion is an evil thing.

 

Believer can put "In God we trust" on our money and you are okay with that.  They can put "under God" in the pledge and force children to say that five days a week.  But unbelievers can't question religion - no!  Unbelievers should not get freedom of speech.

 

 

Same mantra MM. Religion is fucking me and I can't stop it.