Creation, God, Nothing And Our Universe

[Ravenstar]

He's not here for support… people that need support do not act like that. Get your head out of your ass.

 

He was unnecessarily contrary and obtuse, and insulting… and then projected that onto us. Forget that crap.. it's bullshit.

 

It's like this: You come into someone else's house… show a modicum of respect - be at the very least civil - the post would not have been moved to the Lions Den if that had occurred. Even the VERY polite requests for clarification were ridiculed and vilified. 

 

For the last time: Assertions are not evidence. You want to philosophize, go to the spirituality forum and behave yourself. You want to make a claim… back it up.

[violetbutterfly]

If and if and if, if he had of. Again, please take what he offered and place no restrictions on what you will accept and try to hear what he said. Obviously it makes complete sense to him. If you really want to communicate....REALLY, i.e. LOVE, you will find common ground. But no, same ole put your facts on the table and let us pick them apart with our intellect.

 

 

I think what you are missing is that he came in here and stated his belief as fact. And when people here asked him to elaborate, he turned to passive agrressive, one line insults. I have been in a position of trying to put my personal belief into words and it is not always easy, especially when you are speaking with others who are of a different opinion. The difference is, I put a little effort into it. And I also know the definition of a belief. I may feel or believe something in my heart but I understand that not everyone will feel the same based on their personal experiences and beliefs.

 

I do not always agree with the staunch atheists here. I'm kind of a fence sitter when it comes to whether or not some kind of God exists. But I am open to discussion, which means both talking and listening and considering what others have to say. I share my experiences and I listen to theirs. You cannot come into a thread here, insult everyone's intelligence and then lash out when they get offended. I hope that the lurkers have enjoyed this thread.

 

 

Also...

 

 

You start off by assuming that none of us have done the work that you say will lead us to what you refer to as "the Truth". Perhaps we just didn't do it right? If we didn't do it right, then explain the process and the steps involved. How do we do it properly so that we may come to understand reality as you do?

you havnt done anything otherwise you would'nt be asking

 

 

This is where he lost me. Every one of us has gone through a complex process that landed us here. To waltz in and marginalize it, to throw out a smug attitude of "you just don't get it" and I'm done listening to you.

 

 

[mymistake]

 

If and if and if, if he had of. Again, please take what he offered and place no restrictions on what you will accept and try to hear what he said. Obviously it makes complete sense to him. If you really want to communicate....REALLY, i.e. LOVE, you will find common ground. But no, same ole put your facts on the table and let us pick them apart with our intellect.

 

 

I think what you are missing is that he came in here and stated his belief as fact. And when people here asked him to elaborate, he turned to passive agrressive, one line insults. I have been in a position of trying to put my personal belief into words and it is not always easy, especially when you are speaking with others who are of a different opinion. The difference is, I put a little effort into it. And I also know the definition of a belief. I may feel or believe something in my heart but I understand that not everyone will feel the same based on their personal experiences and beliefs.

 

 

 

But haven't I killed you over and over again?  End is just sure that I persecute any believer I detect.    

[midniterider]

 

 But no, same ole put your facts on the table and let us pick them apart with our intellect.

 

Isn't that the very purpose of The Lion's Den?

 

 

 

Lets see.   "This is the section of the board where Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on will be more-or-less tolerated. Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance."

 

It doesn't really say a believer has to provide facts or evidence after making a claim for deity (or anything else) or mandatorily submit to interrogation. It does say arguments, sermons, opinions, etc are more or less tolerated...whatever that means. lol. Aggressive evangelism is even permitted. You may make any claim you like no matter how absurd with no supporting statements. Just watch out, the lions of logic will beat you down. :-) And finally all posters must "adhere [to] the general rules of decorum."

 

These guidelines dont necessarily provide for a free and peaceful exchange of ideas, but these are the rules and this is an Ex-c website so the believers aint getting no backup. :-)

 

So, we are allowed to:

 

1. Spew the woo.

2. Bash the woo.

3. Don't be a total jerk.

 

How very exciting is that.......

[Vigile]

Eh, not to worry. I just can't believe sometimes for such a group of fact-oriented folks there can be no room for more connecting the dots. Three zillion dots and not a connection one. You all can communicate with each other because you talk data to each other....and law. Carry on with your data mining. AND SCREW THE "OUTLIARS".

 

Translation: Waaaa! My mushy thinking and refusal to give up my invisible friend in spite of the fact I've been shown time and again I have no foundational basis to stand on makes me angry.  Screw you guys, I'm going home!

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Oh...  and those machines you use in both of your labs work on the same principles of quantum physics as was used to make that prediction.

 

Same physics, different application.

 

So every day you are affirming and confirming the science you're so busily denying in this forum.

 

Hypocrite!

I use science to make a living. I don't deny science at all. I am advocating NOT solely using science as a tool for communication. Communication seemingly has to be defined by stricktly facts here.....rigid definitions, a perfect definition of the truth or it's invalid and our lives and meaning are ruined. Bullshit. Isn't there some galaxy that is not traveling in the right direction for all the predictions? Can we explain this?

 

 

To quote the fanatical and unpersuadable Christian zealot OrdinaryClay...

 

"Science argues to the best explanation."

 

There.  That's an accurate description of how science works from a Christian brother of yours, End.  I quote him to show you that there are some Christians who do understand how science works.

 

Science doesn't have to explain EVERYTHING right now.

That's because, unlike the Bible, it never claims to be the ABSOLUTE truth.  Science is simply a tool for gaining a better and better understanding of how reality works.  So there will always be things that science cannot currently explain.  Therefore, your rogue galaxy or examples it like will always be there to science work to explain tomorrow.  Examples like that don't invalidate the process of science - they show that it's working properly.

[Fweethawt]

 

Eh, not to worry. I just can't believe sometimes for such a group of fact-oriented folks there can be no room for more connecting the dots. Three zillion dots and not a connection one. You all can communicate with each other because you talk data to each other....and law. Carry on with your data mining. AND SCREW THE "OUTLIARS".

 

 

Translation: Waaaa! My mushy thinking and refusal to give up my invisible friend in spite of the fact I've been shown time and again I have no foundational basis to stand on makes me angry.  Screw you guys, I'm going home!

This post is so much better if you imagine Eric Cartman saying it!

[bornagainathiest]

 

Oh...  and those machines you use in both of your labs work on the same principles of quantum physics as was used to make that prediction.

 

Same physics, different application.

 

So every day you are affirming and confirming the science you're so busily denying in this forum.

 

Hypocrite!

I use science to make a living. I don't deny science at all. I am advocating NOT solely using science as a tool for communication. Communication seemingly has to be defined by stricktly facts here.....rigid definitions, a perfect definition of the truth or it's invalid and our lives and meaning are ruined. Bullshit. Isn't there some galaxy that is not traveling in the right direction for all the predictions? Can we explain this?

 

 

Here's the second point you keep on missing, End.

 

Science demonstrates the claims made in the Bible are false.  

So there is no need to use any other mode of communication to try and re-establish them as true.  The facts, the data and the evidence have swept scripture aside and rendered it false.  2 + 2 = 4 and this is true for everyone, everywhere.  There's no point resorting to poetry or myth or metaphor to try and make it 5.  

 

The scriptures are NOT an accurate description of reality.  

Humans did not descend from a mud man and a rib woman.  Suffering and death was not caused by a talking snake.  God did not create the universe in six days.  There was no global Flood.  And so on.  So there's no need to use a different mode of communication to try and make these things real or true or historical.  They aren't.  It's that simple.

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I can even give you a personal example of how this works.

 

After he died, I looked upon the body of my dad and accepted the indisputable fact that he was dead.  

He wasn't coming back, he wasn't somewhere else and it was just pure escapism for me to think otherwise.  The fact of his death swept aside everything else - just as science has swept aside all the comforting (but untrue) Biblical claims of endless bliss in heaven or endless suffering in hell.

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If you really did accept the science End, you wouldn't need to resort to any other kind of communication.

That's what I meant about hypocrisy.  You are claiming one thing (that you accept science) while saying that it isn't an accurate descriptor of reality.  If you really accepted the science, you'd also accept that it describes reality accurately and therefore no other mode of communication is necessary or relevant here.  But you want it both ways.  

 

And that's hypocrisy.

[Vigile]

 

 

Eh, not to worry. I just can't believe sometimes for such a group of fact-oriented folks there can be no room for more connecting the dots. Three zillion dots and not a connection one. You all can communicate with each other because you talk data to each other....and law. Carry on with your data mining. AND SCREW THE "OUTLIARS".

 

Translation: Waaaa! My mushy thinking and refusal to give up my invisible friend in spite of the fact I've been shown time and again I have no foundational basis to stand on makes me angry.  Screw you guys, I'm going home!

This post is so much better if you imagine Eric Cartman saying it!

 

 

I was channeling him. 

 

[Vigile]

The irony here is these guys claim science doesn't provide all the answers and then they turn around and act like they do.

 

Which is more likely to get you to the truth of the matter?  Tools developed to help weed out the noise and which actually have accurate and consistent predictive ability, or simple SWAG?  That many just rest their hope on a wild ass guess tells me they have a mental deficiency of sorts. 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Well, it's a mind virus, a delusion, more than it is mental or intellectual impairment.  Intelligent people can fall for this stuff, we did

[Vigile]

I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't have this stuff hammered into me the way people like End have.  When confronted with reality, it took me a bit to sort it out, but I didn't just adamantly deny it year after year.  More like, I was living in a bubble of Christiandom and my bubble got popped by my educators and travel experience.  End's bubble is impenetrable. 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I think there's hope for end.  Many of his views have changed over time.

[Fweethawt]

 

 

 

Eh, not to worry. I just can't believe sometimes for such a group of fact-oriented folks there can be no room for more connecting the dots. Three zillion dots and not a connection one. You all can communicate with each other because you talk data to each other....and law. Carry on with your data mining. AND SCREW THE "OUTLIARS".

 

 

Translation: Waaaa! My mushy thinking and refusal to give up my invisible friend in spite of the fact I've been shown time and again I have no foundational basis to stand on makes me angry.  Screw you guys, I'm going home!

This post is so much better if you imagine Eric Cartman saying it!

 

I was channeling him.

I respect your authoritah to do so...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

 

But no, same ole put your facts on the table and let us pick them apart with our intellect.

Isn't that the very purpose of The Lion's Den?

 

If you wish to be a lion that kills for the rest of your life...go for it.

 

 

 

Asking believers questions that they do not want to answer is not killing them.  Is telling children that Santa isn't real killing them too?  God, you are so melodramatic.  Every time you proclaim your gospel you are telling people of other faiths that their faith is wrong.  Do you kill them all?  

 

 

Nobody made Foak brag about how he could prove God is real.  He did that on his own.  We are not monsters for saying "Okay, show us" or "I don't see it".

 

 

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It's figurative MM. When someone comes here in need of support and then is ridiculed, it's like death in that there are things that build people's life and things that destroy. Y'all are plenty life giving when it comes to non-believers, but have no problem dealing death to believers. What's the difference? Relative hypocrisy for everyone!

 

The Lion's Den isn't the forum people come to for support; and foak clearly didn't come here looking for compassion.  

[Guest end3]

The problem I see is we really don't know what he was here for since we really don't know him. That's moderately undisputable.

 

And what is also disgusting is "we have created this space, the Lion's Den, as an area where it's ok to be rude to people". Kind of like the picket line of the Westboro Baptist Bunch and their fag hating.

[Margee]

Actually I have something to say about this. foak WAS listened to, and replied to, in depth and supportively, in the woo forum. Instead of engaging those replies, instead he comes over here and starts a shitstorm. He's not interested in talking with anyone, or he would have pursued his woo forum thread. No, this is not about him needing to be heard, or understood--it's about martyr-trolling.

This was my observation as well Orbit.

[Margee]

I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't have this stuff hammered into me the way people like End have.  When confronted with reality, it took me a bit to sort it out, but I didn't just adamantly deny it year after year.  More like, I was living in a bubble of Christiandom and my bubble got popped by my educators and travel experience.  End's bubble is impenetrable. 

 

Good point Vigile. I feel in my heart that the human race does not want to see the truth about life. I  have had the hardest time in the last few years accepting the fact that this is it. I don't like the truth about the things I have learned in the last years on this site... yet I wanted to know the truth. I love the truth but I hate it at the same time. It would be so much easier to remain in my bubble. At least it gave me a tiny bit of 'something' that would make life seem like it had 'meaning'. As I studied evolution in the last few years, I know in my heart that we are just dumb/intelligent animals still learning. That's why I think it's very hard for someone to finally cut that 'invisible' thread that keeps them hanging on. The truth is very hard to take. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

But no, same ole put your facts on the table and let us pick them apart with our intellect.

Isn't that the very purpose of The Lion's Den?

 

If you wish to be a lion that kills for the rest of your life...go for it.

 

Seriously?  Asking someone to support a claim is hardly the same as killing.  Asking someone what their purpose is isn't even in the same ball park as killing.

 

We're not Elisha's two she-bears, End3.  We're just people.

[Fweethawt]

The problem I see is we really don't know what he was here for since we really don't know him. That's moderately undisputable.And what is also disgusting is "we have created this space, the Lion's Den, as an area where it's ok to be rude to people". Kind of like the picket line of the Westboro Baptist Bunch and their fag hating.

You like that 'F' word, huh?

 

 

Anyway, dumbass, just how often do you see the "fags" gathering around the picket lines to take the abuse? You don't!

 

But you fucking Christians come into the Lion's Den -- where it clearly states what to expect -- then you bitch about it. Just how fucking retarded is that?

[Guest end3]

Anyway, dumbass, just how often do you see the "fags" gathering around the picket lines to take the abuse? You don't!

 

But you fucking Christians come into the Lion's Den -- where it clearly states what to expect -- then you bitch about it. Just how fucking retarded is that?

Don't know that I can tell the difference between calling someone a fag vs. dumbass fucking Christian. You're making Olsteen look like a viable alternative...

 

Lucky for humanity that people like you can make that distinction.

[mymistake]

The problem I see is we really don't know what he was here for since we really don't know him. That's moderately undisputable.

 

And what is also disgusting is "we have created this space, the Lion's Den, as an area where it's ok to be rude to people". Kind of like the picket line of the Westboro Baptist Bunch and their fag hating.

 

 

All somebody has to do is believe in some kind of God and you turn into their champion demanding all the sick, evil, monsters try to understand the believer.

 

Why don't you have an ounce of compassion for us?  How come you never try to understand us?  We don't hate believers and we didn't picket their funeral.  But your lack of compassion will never let you comprehend that.  Are we even people to you?

[Guest end3]

 

The problem I see is we really don't know what he was here for since we really don't know him. That's moderately undisputable.

 

And what is also disgusting is "we have created this space, the Lion's Den, as an area where it's ok to be rude to people". Kind of like the picket line of the Westboro Baptist Bunch and their fag hating.

 

 

All somebody has to do is believe in some kind of God and you turn into their champion demanding all the sick, evil, monsters try to understand the believer.

 

Why don't you have an ounce of compassion for us?  How come you never try to understand us?  We don't hate believers and we didn't picket their funeral.  But your lack of compassion will never let you comprehend that.  Are we even people to you?

 

I have plenty of compassion for people here. I don't like the double standard. What do you mean you don't hate believers? Look at Fwee's post two posts back....a former moderator here. If he were here, there is not an ounce of difference between him holding up a "dumbass fucking Christian" picket sign and "God hates fags" sigh. He's so angry he's near volatile.

 

What if that man foak were near suicide? God damn MM, y'all mobilize an the entire site to save Jeff, but here, welcome to our Lion's Den to be heard.

 

You choose what you think is right.

 

Sure you're human, and so is everyone else...

[mymistake]

What do you mean you don't hate believers? 

 

If you were not blinded by your own prejudice you would have realized that on your own.  I don't hate believers.  You tell me you have compassion for me while you constantly make false accusations against me.  

 

 

 

What if that man foak were near suicide? God damn MM, y'all mobilize an the entire site to save Jeff, but here, welcome to our Lion's Den to be heard.

 

 

When Jeff, Foak and you come here for support we support all of you.  When Foak calls us "horrible" a dozen times we don't like being called horrible.  Why can't you comprehend this?

 

 

We didn't pick on Foak.  So get off your imaginary high horse.  We didn't attack him.  He attacked us.  He started this shit and for the longest time V. was the only person who returned crap for crap.  Everyone else, including me, tried to have a civil and polite conversation with Foak.  He would not allow that.

 

You know I created this thread.  I put it in the Colosseum so that it would stay polite.  It was moved when Foak ignored all the polite attempts at conversation.  All he wanted to do was fight.

 

So drop your prejudice and look at what really happened.

[Overcame Faith]

You know I created this thread.  I put it in the Colosseum so that it would stay polite.  It was moved when Foak ignored all the polite attempts at conversation.  All he wanted to do was fight.

This is true. This thread started off in the Colosseum which I thought was a reasonable place for it. There could be a debate of sorts, but with stricter rules of decorum. And it is also true that the tone eventually took on more of the character of the Lion's Den so the thread was appropriately moved here.

 

No one forced anyone, including foak, to continue posting in the Lion's Den. His and everyone's participation was purely voluntary and, simply reading the rules for the Den reveals that the discussions here are turned up several notches. So, participation in the Lion's Den is a form of the assumption of a known risk. Let the participant beware!!

 

Having said all of that, even the Lion's Den has its limits. This is me speaking personally expressing a personal opinion, if I could see but one change in the Lion's Den, it would be for participants to stop calling each other derogatory names like stupid, dumbass, asshole, and countless other epithets I have seen in the Lion's Den. My reaction to such name calling is that the one engaging in it must not have such a good argument because they resort to name calling to try and intimidate the person expressing the opposing view. But that's just my personal observation for what it's worth.