God without Religion?

[Georgia]

21 hours ago, MOHO said:

Here we go again...for...maybe... the thousandth' time.

 

Christians have come here and proclaimed that...

We are atheists because...

1. We had a bad experience with the church or one of it's members.
2. We enjoy our "sin".
3. We never read the Bible.
4. We read but did not understand the Bible.
5. We have behavioral issues.
6. We are riddled with Asperger's.
7. We are controlled by Satan.

Some of us here are atheists - some are not.

 

most of us rejected Christianity after much research into the origins of the Bible and how religion, especially the Abrahamic  varietals,  appear to have been invented to control the masses and put people under the rule of governments that utilize religion as a tool.

 

Your post is an obvious attempt to proselytize and is a direct violation of the policies of this site.

 

 

 

Hi MOHO! 

 

Thanks for the comment- no I'm not here trying to proclaim anything, I asked a question because I am interested to know what lead you all here.

 

I am sorry that you've met some extremely naive Christians because actually many so called believers -

1.  enjoy "sin".
2. Never read the Bible.
3. read but do not understand the Bible.
4.  have behavioral issues.
5. are controlled by Satan.

What you said-

most of us rejected Christianity after much research into the origins of the Bible and how religion, especially the Abrahamic  varietals,  appear to have been invented to control the masses and put people under the rule of governments that utilize religion as a tool.

 

Thank you for this, I also agree that governments have used "religion" throughout history to control people.

[Georgia]

20 hours ago, TABA said:

Hi Georgia, and welcome to the Lion's Den, bwahahahahaha!

 

Seriously, welcome.

I do identify as an atheist, technically an agnostic atheist.  No, I didn't really have any particularly bad experiences in the church, in fact I had a lot of good ones:  good, sincere people who treated me and others only with kindness.  I just realized I could no longer believe in the existence of that God, or any other.

 

Stay safe and healthy yourself, in London Town!

 

 

Hi Taba, 

 

Thanks for the response. Any chance you could explain what you mean when said you realized you couldn't go on believing in a God? Did anything in particular happen? 

 

Thanks

[Georgia]

16 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Not only the Western world. Anybody who reads it, believes it and succumbs to the fear mongering and control mechanisms of religion. 

Do you understand that it makes no sense to "have a relationship" with something that doesn't exist? Do you understand lack of belief? Would you ever consider having a relationship with the Flying Spaghetti Monster outside of the pastaverse? 

a·the·ist

/ˈāTHēəst/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

   "he is a committed atheist"

    

    

We don't need to respect your beliefs/views. You're in the Lions Den. There's a big difference between respect for individuals as human beings, and respect for their beliefs. 

You shouldn't be here if you can't accept this, and will get insulted by your beliefs not getting respect. You're in our playground - you came here. 

Welcome to the Lions Den. 

 

Hello True Seeker 

 

Sorry,  I should made myself clear- 

 

Please respect me as a person. I have been on here before and been called stupid and ignorant and alot worse than that!! 

 

I know y'all don't believe so I am expecting opposing views but just be kind with it

 

Yes it does sound silly asking an atheist If they would believe in God with religion because you don't believe at all!! However, I think u get my drift? 

 

I am keen to see if it's the mechanisms of the religion which has turned people away or because they found knowledge else where. This is ex Christian.net so I presume you all once did believe

 

Thanks 

[Joshpantera]

41 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I am keen to see if it's the mechanisms of the religion which has turned people away or because they found knowledge else where. This is ex Christian.net so I presume you all once did believe

 

Sorry, I didn't see that you've posted over 40 times here. I took you as a newbie with the welcome. 

 

In over 40 posts were you not able to find answers to these questions before? I'm confused as to where this is coming from and why now?

 

I'll say that the mechanism of religion often alerts people to the BS factor involved. Inconsistencies within churches or with preachers can contribute. Contradictions and problems with apologists often launch discontinued belief. These can all be red flags. Which can then lead to a close 'examination of the bible' itself, a close look at the history of christianity itself, the foggy origins, and judaism which informed it. This is where the atheism can come into view. Simply not believing any of these religious personalities, their claims, nor the claims of bible. 

 

The concept of Father and Savior, comes to us from the bible. 

 

So why do you suppose anyone would cast away the very thing (the bible is fiction to us) responsible for such a concept as Father and Savior and yet continue to believe in a Father and Savior anyways?

 

You've done it, it would seem. But you've done so from a platform of being confused about what I've just laid out. You are basically suggesting something akin to throwing away your comic books, spiting comic fans, but continuing on believing in superman anyways as if it's true independent of the source responsible for it's very creation. And even encouraging that others ought to entertain doing the same. 

 

What gives? 

 

Care to explain this better? 

[Georgia]

15 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Sorry, I didn't see that you've posted over 40 times here. I took you as a newbie with the welcome. 

 

In over 40 posts were you not able to find answers to these questions before? I'm confused as to where this is coming from and why now?

 

I'll say that the mechanism of religion often alerts people to the BS factor involved. Inconsistencies within churches or with preachers can contribute. Contradictions and problems with apologists often launch discontinued belief. These can all be red flags. Which can then lead to a close 'examination of the bible' itself, a close look at the history of christianity itself, the foggy origins, and judaism which informed it. This is where the atheism can come into view. Simply not believing any of these religious personalities, their claims, nor the claims of bible. 

 

The concept of Father and Savior, comes to us from the bible. 

 

So why do you suppose anyone would cast away the very thing (the bible is fiction to us) responsible for such a concept as Father and Savior and yet continue to believe in a Father and Savior anyways?

 

You've done it, it would seem. But you've done so from a platform of being confused about what I've just laid out. You are basically suggesting something akin to throwing away your comic books, spiting comic fans, but continuing on believing in superman anyways as if it's true independent of the source responsible for it's very creation. And even encouraging that others ought to entertain doing the same. 

 

What gives? 

 

Care to explain this better? 

 

Hi

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

Yes I have posted on this blog before and yes I did find answers but theres always another question to ask! 

 

My journey into faith started in absence of any formal religon. Since I was a kid I always believed in a creator of some kind. In school I just couldn't understand how all of this came into existence by chance and luck. In University I studied genetics, evolution and biology to try to get closer to the truth but it still did not make sense. The design of DNA and the chances that all the right components needed to create life all present at one time for no reason at all just didn't sit right with me. As I studied evolution I just couldn't believe what was being presented to me- I just felt like there had to be more. 

 

To cut a really long story short because I always felt there was a creator it led me to look into lots of different religions but this in itself put me off because how could you have so many! None of it made sense and I basically gave up. But I still could not get rid of the feeling that something was missing from my life and there was so much more to this existence. I basically tried out different faiths and nothing happened, my life didn't change and I didn't see things differently. 

 

So I just did what it says in most religions I consistently prayed from my heart to the creator  - note at this point I didn't relate it to any religion just to the one who made us all and I asked for direction. But when I asked it was with a full, sincere heart and I honestly feel I got my answer. I kept being led back to "Christ",  back to the understanding that it is through "Jesus" that we are saved.. So I tried it out, I called out for Jesus but most importantly I denied myself and repented of all sin, let go of pride and the past. I asked for something very specific in my life and it was given to me. This was the real start of my journey into faith, as I continued I started to feel like something wasn't right as I read the scripture lots did not add up and I felt disheartened. So I went back to prayer and asked to be shown the truth, from that point on I was led to all sorts of information on the corruption of the church, the bible and the world itself. I then started to separate myself from the mainstream religion but with the knowledge that the father and messiah do exist- I chose my words carefully because I do not believe in the Trinity. 

 

Through my own personal experience I am led to believe you can have a relationship with the father without the bible however the bible is a "guide" to life ( I absolutely agree that it contradicts itself, it has been changed but due to me being led constantly back to the bible when asking for help, I do take it as the word of "God" but I also understand it has been tampered with) You don't need a priest or a vicar to access the "holy spirit" or strengthen your relationship with the father, that's between the two of you. 

 

I suppose what I am asking is, would you consider the idea of a creator? Or has "religion" detered you away from that idea completely.. I personally cannot get my head around the magnificent design of everything in this world, the detail in the design is unreal and I cannot believe it's a product of chance and natural selection. 

 

 

 

 

[Georgia]

3 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

Hi

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

Yes I have posted on this blog before and yes I did find answers but theres always another question to ask! 

 

My journey into faith started in absence of any formal religon. Since I was a kid I always believed in a creator of some kind. In school I just couldn't understand how all of this came into existence by chance and luck. In University I studied genetics, evolution and biology to try to get closer to the truth but it still did not make sense. The design of DNA and the chances that all the right components needed to create life all present at one time for no reason at all just didn't sit right with me. As I studied evolution I just couldn't believe what was being presented to me- I just felt like there had to be more. 

 

To cut a really long story short because I always felt there was a creator it led me to look into lots of different religions but this in itself put me off because how could you have so many! None of it made sense and I basically gave up. But I still could not get rid of the feeling that something was missing from my life and there was so much more to this existence. I basically tried out different faiths and nothing happened, my life didn't change and I didn't see things differently. 

 

So I just did what it says in most religions I consistently prayed from my heart to the creator  - note at this point I didn't relate it to any religion just to the one who made us all and I asked for direction. But when I asked it was with a full, sincere heart and I honestly feel I got my answer. I kept being led back to "Christ",  back to the understanding that it is through "Jesus" that we are saved.. So I tried it out, I called out for Jesus but most importantly I denied myself and repented of all sin, let go of pride and the past. I asked for something very specific in my life and it was given to me. This was the real start of my journey into faith, as I continued I started to feel like something wasn't right as I read the scripture lots did not add up and I felt disheartened. So I went back to prayer and asked to be shown the truth, from that point on I was led to all sorts of information on the corruption of the church, the bible and the world itself. I then started to separate myself from the mainstream religion but with the knowledge that the father and messiah do exist- I chose my words carefully because I do not believe in the Trinity. 

 

Through my own personal experience I am led to believe you can have a relationship with the father without the bible however the bible is a "guide" to life ( I absolutely agree that it contradicts itself, it has been changed but due to me being led constantly back to the bible when asking for help, I do take it as the word of "God" but I also understand it has been tampered with) You don't need a priest or a vicar to access the "holy spirit" or strengthen your relationship with the father, that's between the two of you. 

 

I suppose what I am asking is, would you consider the idea of a creator? Or has "religion" detered you away from that idea completely.. I personally cannot get my head around the magnificent design of everything in this world, the detail in the design is unreal and I cannot believe it's a product of chance and natural selection. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also want to point out that when I called to the creator for guidance I was opened minded and had an open heart. Lots of people say to me but you only believe in "jesus" because you live in the West, my response is, when I asked for help I was led to him, no one else. If I had been led elsewhere I would have followed but it just so happened to be "Christ" 

 

I keep using " " marks because I don't use these terms myself. Through my prayer I was shown jesus and god are not orginal terms so I don't use them personally only in discussion to those who haven't looked beyond the English text bibles. I believe the father led me to the hebrew/aramaic texts for a reason- to show me how meaning can be lost through translation. 

 

Anyway, my point is my journey is personal to me. I have experienced life changing moments which I could only have been possible with the help of something else and I believe this to be the father. 

 

 

[SarahJaneSmith]

36 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I suppose what I am asking is, would you consider the idea of a creator? Or has "religion" detered you away from that idea completely.

“Religion” hasn’t led me away from itself, searching for what is true did that. Several people have noted the same but you seem loathe accepting our answers as valid. Why? You seem to want us to take your answers at face value but yet you keep asking us if we would reconsider our position. 

[Georgia]

22 hours ago, florduh said:

Hello, Georgia.

 

So why, exactly, are you a "strong believer in the Father and the Messiah?" Do you have any evidence for such a belief? Why is your nonsense better than the other religious nonsense?

 

I happen to have had a great experience with my old church. The people were nice and I was very close to the pastor, a well educated and sincere man.

 

A particular sect or congregation is irrelevant once you've honestly studied the Bible and its history. I was studying at Moody when everything finally came together in my epiphany: "Hey, this is all bullshit."

 

Welcome to the Lion's Den.

 

 

Hey Florduh, 

 

Thanks for your reply

 

I am strong believer in the father and messiah due to my own personal experience. 

 

I agree that lots of "religion" is nonsense and I agree that the history and evidence we would all like to see is not there. However, I remind myself that satan is at work and will do anything in his power to destroy the faith. Religion is full of false teachers and nonsense you are completely right

 

 

[Georgia]

6 minutes ago, SarahJaneSmith said:

“Religion” hasn’t led me away from itself, searching for what is true did that. Several people have noted the same but you seem loathe accepting our answers as valid. Why? You seem to want us to take your answers at face value but yet you keep asking us if we would reconsider our position. 

 

Hi SarahJane, 

 

Hope your keeping safe and well

 

I accepted and respect each of your answers and thank you for them! That post you commented on was specifically for Josh as he asked me to explain better. It was not meant to come across as me not accepting your answers so apologies if it did x

[Georgia]

11 hours ago, mwc said:

     Depending on how you define "religion" simple belief in a deity is enough to qualify as religion.  Given what you've said I'm going to assume that you probably don't think so which means we have to go with rites and rituals.  Do you engage in any?  Prayers or whatnot?  I'd have to make a guess but if you're having a "relationship" then it probably involves these things just not in a formal institution.  So you're still involved in religion, just informally so.

 

     So, to answer your question, no I'm not interested.

 

          mwc

 

 

I don't adhere to any denomination of "Christianity", I don't do rituals, I communicate with the father as I would anybody else- I talk to him. Prayer does not require a ritual, I speak to the father through out the day no matter what I am doing. In absence of the bible or any leader of a church, I communicate with my heart and through faith. 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

55 minutes ago, Georgia said:

In school I just couldn't understand how all of this came into existence by chance and luck. In University I studied genetics, evolution and biology to try to get closer to the truth but it still did not make sense. The design of DNA and the chances that all the right components needed to create life all present at one time for no reason at all just didn't sit right with me. As I studied evolution I just couldn't believe what was being presented to me

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true.

 

57 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

To cut a really long story short because I always felt there was a creator it led me to look into lots of different religions but this in itself put me off because how could you have so many! None of it made sense and I basically gave up

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true. 

 

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

This was the real start of my journey into faith, as I continued I started to feel like something wasn't right as I read the scripture lots did not add up and I felt disheartened. So I went back to prayer and asked to be shown the truth, from that point on I was led to all sorts of information on the corruption of the church, the bible and the world itself. I then started to separate myself from the mainstream religion

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true. 

 

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

I personally cannot get my head around the magnificent design of everything in this world, the detail in the design is unreal and I cannot believe it's a product of chance and natural selection.

In other words, you don't understand it, so it ... must be true?

[Joshpantera]

51 minutes ago, Georgia said:

I suppose what I am asking is, would you consider the idea of a creator? Or has "religion" detered you away from that idea completely.. I personally cannot get my head around the magnificent design of everything in this world, the detail in the design is unreal and I cannot believe it's a product of chance and natural selection.

 

Thanks for the explanation. I see that you're very thoughtful and active in trying to figure it out. There's no need to get nasty and I hope that no one does. These are all fair questions.

 

I had it very different. I was in private school where we had little to no understanding of evolution nor the BBT at all. We had young earth creation. We had apriori assumptions that the universe and world couldn't exist without a creator. My insight was to move away from that assumption, or the group think of my peers. But, like you, after breaking away from the group think I did face down the chance and happenstance issue like you have. It's just that that was my secondary focus, not my first. 

 

Do you know where that led me? 

 

To the feeling that both sides are likely wrong in their own ways. Both the intelligent design group and the random chance group. That there's a bigger picture not being seen in full by either perspective. If the universe is repetitive, for one example, then everything happens again and again. It's happening now because it always happens. That's not random, nor is it intelligent design. In fact, the intelligent design problem gets pushed back infinitely. You have to start out with something (you insert god here) which wasn't intelligently designed, it just exists without being designed. And then assume that everything else can only exist because this thing which wasn't itself designed, designed everything. 

 

We could say that existence itself was never designed. That it always existed, the same way that a god would be the factor that always existed. And that a universe and world like our own proceeds from a greater natural existence which can give rise to the one we're experiencing. This is like Sagan's 'save a step' analogy. But a little more refined. 

 

Anyways, there's a few thoughts for you to take in. Let me know if you have further questions. I'm happy to answer questions like this. 

[florduh]

24 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

Hey Florduh, 

 

Thanks for your reply

 

I am strong believer in the father and messiah due to my own personal experience. 

 

I agree that lots of "religion" is nonsense and I agree that the history and evidence we would all like to see is not there. However, I remind myself that satan is at work and will do anything in his power to destroy the faith. Religion is full of false teachers and nonsense you are completely right

 

 

 

sooooo..... No evidence that would justify the belief and no recognition that you are just another sect of Christianity. BUT YOUR BELIEFS ARE THE RIGHT ONES!!!!! Gee, we never heard that one before.

[Georgia]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true.

 

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true. 

 

In other words, you don't understand it, so it must not be true. 

 

In other words, you don't understand it, so it ... must be true?

 

Hi

 

Thanks for your response. 

 

No, I don't understand how people can believe that life formed itself,  developed over time by itself through these unbelievabley complicated procedures for no reason at all. You have to have a lot of faith to believe that!

 

 

 

[Georgia]

10 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

sooooo..... No evidence that would justify the belief and no recognition that you are just another sect of Christianity. BUT YOUR BELIEFS ARE THE RIGHT ONES!!!!! Gee, we never heard that one before.

 

The relationship you have with the father is extremely personal and unique to each individual- if it wasnt, then what is the point? The evidence I have is unique and personal to my own life. I never said my beliefs are the right ones and as I stated I am not here to try to convert or convince you the father is real. I came to ask questions about the reasons why people have chosen to leave the faith. 

 

 

 

 

[florduh]

Take care to not conflate complexity with design. An intelligent design of the human body would, for example, not route the food and air pipes together. But wait, there's more!!! https://unbelievable-facts.com/2018/06/design-flaws-in-the-human-body.html

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

 

sooooo..... No evidence that would justify the belief and no recognition that you are just another sect of Christianity. BUT YOUR BELIEFS ARE THE RIGHT ONES!!!!! Gee, we never heard that one before.

I told you this several years ago, but you still seem to be questioning...lol

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

 

 

Hey Florduh, 

 

Thanks for your reply

 

I am strong believer in the father and messiah due to my own personal experience. 

 

I agree that lots of "religion" is nonsense and I agree that the history and evidence we would all like to see is not there. However, I remind myself that satan is at work and will do anything in his power to destroy the faith. Religion is full of false teachers and nonsense you are completely right

 

 

 

Hello Georgia.

 

When I was a Christian I too was a strong believer on account of my own personal experience.

 

However, one persons personal experience is a closed book to any other person.  Whatever is personal to us is subjective.

 

So, I was wondering, do you have any objective evidence for your beliefs?  That is, evidence that other people besides yourself can test, check or examine?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Georgia]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Thanks for the explanation. I see that you're very thoughtful and active in trying to figure it out. There's no need to get nasty and I hope that no one does. These are all fair questions.

 

I had it very different. I was in private school where we had little to no understanding of evolution nor the BBT at all. We had young earth creation. We had apriori assumptions that the universe and world couldn't exist without a creator. My insight was to move away from that assumption, or the group think of my peers. But, like you, after breaking away from the group think I did face down the chance and happenstance issue like you have. It's just that that was my secondary focus, not my first. 

 

Do you know where that led me? 

 

To the feeling that both sides are likely wrong in their own ways. Both the intelligent design group and the random chance group. That there's a bigger picture not being seen in full by either perspective. If the universe is repetitive, for one example, then everything happens again and again. It's happening now because it always happens. That's not random, nor is it intelligent design. In fact, the intelligent design problem gets pushed back infinitely. You have to start out with something (you insert god here) which wasn't intelligently designed, it just exists without being designed. And then assume that everything else can only exist because this thing which wasn't itself designed, designed everything. 

 

We could say that existence itself was never designed. That it always existed, the same way that a god would be the factor that always existed. And that a universe and world like our own proceeds from a greater natural existence which can give rise to the one we're experiencing. This is like Sagan's 'save a step' analogy. But a little more refined. 

 

Anyways, there's a few thoughts for you to take in. Let me know if you have further questions. I'm happy to answer questions like this. 

 

 

Thank you for sharing some of your experiences

 

before I give my response I want to say again that this is just my opinion based on my own experience. I am not pushing my view on to anyone and don't think my belief is superior to anybody else's. 

 

I believe the father exists outside of our concept of time- He just is.. we have been created to show love to another and most importantly to the father. Our existence has been designed - In the beginning  (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). I believe the creator is the father of what we call time and is grand designer. 

 

When you see life under a microscope and have the opportunity to experiment with DNA it does lead you to ask questions like how is this possible and why is it happening. 

 

We must not forget that some of the most intelligent thinkers and scientists throughout history have been "christians". Let's not lead ourselves to believe that the notion of God is for those who are less intelligent or cannot distinguish fact from fiction. 

 

 

[florduh]

24 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I told you this several years ago, but you still seem to be questioning...lol

 

Sorry. I forgot. Edgarcito (!) has the only correct Christian religion.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, florduh said:

 

Sorry. I forgot. Edgarcito (!) has the only correct Christian religion.

Thank you.  I see she is now turning towards her subjectivity....which I happen to agree with.  I'm sure Walter will put her in her place and demand she abide by one of his rules.  He really is a reincarnation of BAA...  Let's watch and find out.  Tune in tomorrow, same BAT time, same BAT channel....

[DanForsman]

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

I also want to point out that when I called to the creator for guidance I was opened minded and had an open heart. Lots of people say to me but you only believe in "jesus" because you live in the West, my response is, when I asked for help I was led to him, no one else. If I had been led elsewhere I would have followed but it just so happened to be "Christ" 

This leads to the massively troubling probability that had you been raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country (rather than an overwhelmingly Christian country) you would almost certainly have been led to Allah and the  Qur'an. When a Muslim in a Muslim country with just as much sincerity as you asks for a creator god to reveal "Himself" why do you suppose "He" instead reveals "Himself" as Allah? Do you resolve this problem by assuming that the sincerity of your prayers could not be matched by those of a Muslim? Both you and your Muslim counterpart feel so blessed to have been born into a country that knows the real true god. Do you find it at all troubling that about 2/3 of the humans on the earth do not believe in your god or do you judge all of those too have never searched with the sincerity that you have? 

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

To cut a really long story short because I always felt there was a creator it led me to look into lots of different religions...

Clearly in reading what you've written you always did feel this way. The problem with researching any topic when you have a preexisting bias is that there is a high probability you will cater to that bias as you "research". For example, any portions of evolution that don't seem to back up the idea of a creator god may "just not make sense" no matter what amount of evidence is brought to the bear to demonstrate the accuracy and credibility of those portions.

[Geezer]

There is a YouTube series called “Closer to Truth”. It’s about a scientists that wants to believe in God. He travels around the world, speaking with intellectuals, that believe in God, asking them why they believe in God. 

 

I’ve watched several of his videos and interviews with physicists, metaphysicians, genetics and other intellectuals with advanced college degrees and doctorates in science that profess a belief in God. So far, both he and I, remained unconvinced that any of them have uncovered a rational path to God. 
 

So far it seems a belief in God, aka faith, is what it appears to be. Belief without evidence. In other words some people just choose to believe God exists because they want God to exists. It appears education, or lack thereof, has little or nothing to do with belief in God. 

[Georgia]

16 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Hello Georgia.

 

When I was a Christian I too was a strong believer on account of my own personal experience.

 

However, one persons personal experience is a closed book to any other person.  Whatever is personal to us is subjective.

 

So, I was wondering, do you have any objective evidence for your beliefs?  That is, evidence that other people besides yourself can test, check or examine?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

Hey Walter! 

 

What a cool name!

 

I understand that a subjective view is hard to deal with, well because it's subjective and personal to me only! However, what I will say on this point is this is where I believe the faith deepens and I would advise anybody (bair with me, I'm not evangelising!!) to pursue their own personal relationship with the father to receive the evidence they need to check and investigate for themselves. I am a very stubborn person, my journey  into faith had to be specific to me so I was able to find the truth my way to help develop a strong belief not based on anybody else's influence but only the fathers. I was shown what I needed to see to open my heart to "christ"- yes this is subjective but a personal relationship with the father and messiah is the most important thing. So let's not dismiss a subjective experience they are all extremely important. 

 

In terms of objective evidence, I would refer to my other comment about existence, the amazing design of all life forms and the notion that all of this happened by chance and through extremely complex natural processes for absolutely no reason at all. 

 

 

[midniterider]

Georgia, will I burn in Hell if I die without having a personal relationship with the Father in place?

 

edited for clarity.